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What if a child is gay? (growing up gay in Russia)

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Posted by: Samurai_Bob

For a young person facing the possibility of being gay is a very difficult period.
For a young person facing it and living in Russia it is worse than difficult.

I have seen too-many beautiful children end their young lives over this conflict.
I have seen them disowned and living in the streets. I hear it happens in Russia too.

For many young people puberty is a time of exploration and learning. Acts at these ages do not determine a person’s sexual orientation. However, too often if a parent learns of a child in a same sex behavior they react in a way that is damaging and often drives the child away from their intended direction. More than once I have heard a young person say that he/she would never bring a child into a world this cruel after such a beating.

I am not a parent or a psychologist. I have buried my first lover at the age of 19, after he put a gun in his mouth.-following an argument with his father.

I lived in a small mid-western town of 50,000 people who had 7 young males take their lives in one year. Four of them I knew about and their worse nightmare was accepting that they were different, in a family and town that would hate them. These towns are all over America, and I don’t doubt for a minute they are in Russia too. My friend in Russia tells me that boys kill themselves there quite often. I have my experiences and theory as to why a majority of them are doing it.

Many gay young people cannot cope with the pressure and rejection. They hide it until they can leave to a big city, or they turn to drinking, drugs, and self-destructive behavior as a way to cope with the pain they feel.

The Christian Religion which once upon a time helped these troubled youth by settling their spirits and guiding them is no longer an option for them to turn to. Those who use God to promote hatred are now in power, and our special ones are now human trash to be disposed of.

Every child is a gift, and the orientation should not change that.
I want to create this thread to open a forum for the questions for parents anywhere:

“What if my child is gay?” “What if my friend’s child is gay?”

It does not matter which country you live in.
What will matter is how you handle it, and how you impress your love or rejection for that child.

Many believe it is a choice, and often Mother’s believe they did something wrong to cause it to happen. That is a myth.

Someone gay has no choice, except to hide it if they can. There is leading medical evidence of genetic similarities among gay people which scientists cannot explain any other way. So first relax and do not blame yourselves; if you must blame someone blame the designer of your child’s genes. I might add those genetic differences often come with amazing talents if they are not suppressed.

It is possible for a young person to choose to become gay because others make the choice for them. If their self-esteem is made low, or if they appear weaker than others, it is a natural direction for some to not try harder and to take this path as an easy route. Quite often they may live a gay life for a few years and become stronger, and if they desire the opposite sex they marry and make families later-when they feel they are ready. These are not genetic gay people, but people who are that way for social or economic reasons-reasons that can change over time. I personally have had 5 long term relationships (over 5 years) with younger men, and now 3 are married with children, and are very happy fathers. I could not be more proud of them.

My parents later in life confided to me that they knew I was different when I was 10.
But never wanted to believe it, or deal with it, in hopes it wasn’t true.
I had a very unhappy childhood with internal struggles too difficult to describe.
A gay child will need special maintenance, but not high maintenance. A parent’s loving acceptance is 90% of the battle won. And who knows? It could be just a mental phase and could pass. Rejecting, attacking, name-calling, threats, and beatings will only make them turn inward and reject your lifestyle totally, or make them end their misery. If you are successful in changing them, their future families and children may suffer when they leave them for another man or woman. It is really simple if you think about it.

So any issues you good parents have about this topic, I hope this forum can be of help to you. You may discuss things with me or others like me if they one day find RMP.
You may discuss these issues with other parents. You may come here and ask questions for the situations of friends or relatives in 3rd person, and hopefully find good answers.

From Artists, to Scientists, to World Champion Figure Skaters I know how gifted gay people can be if they are raised in a loving environment and family. It is the oppression that makes many of our kind act ugly. Without it, we are a beautiful people to know, with insights and talents that will make our common societies stronger and make this a better world.

We are here for many reasons, and most of them are good.

I welcome anyone to raise the topic here about the young ones and what they are going through.

If you are a friend or relative has a gay child congratulations are in order.
It is a rare gift.

I know a wonderful young man in Russia who is the most intellegent person I have ever got to know. He amazes me often with his wit, and insight.
I will end this opening with my favorite quote from him, a comment that left me gobsmacked and still has me thinking.

"All souls are the molecules of God."
--Nickolay V.
Russian Federation
2006


Posted by: Samurai_Bob

go for the gold Johnny




Posted by: Khashyar

Yes, I would guess that growing up gay in Russia is more difficult than growing up gay in the U.S. and Europe.

Lena told me that someone who is openly gay faces possible (or probably) physical violence.

But generally, I believe that Homosexuality is becoming more and more accepted in the world, and that Russia and other less gay-tolerant countries are bound to catch up.

Khashyar


Posted by: Samurai_Bob

http://www.gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=3719

Also here is a BBC update homepage on the developing crisis for Moscow officials regarding the festival Shasha's mentions.

http://www.gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=3713

Morally, legally, and considering the incredible numbers of gays expected to be in Moscow, and the money they bring-MILLIONS-to the local economy, I can see the parade and festival going forward.

I admire their courage. It will be a historic event.


Posted by: Samurai_Bob

In Russia, or America, or anywhere this is often the case.

My experience has been that the process of overcoming years of oppression and brainwashing against being gay is first manifested by hatred of anything gay related, and denial of any understanding.



It is easier to avoid one's inner truth by attacking it when seen in others.

Not long ago someone used the F word online-prompting this post.

I too, before self-acceptance, hated "fags" with a passion, for years. It was expected of me by family, and society in general.

When i lived in San Diego I lost count of the sailors who I heard scream fag, and months later found them having fun in our bars and competing with the others for someone's affection.

Of course, this theory isn't provable and only based on my own experience.
This is no indication that a person is genetically gay, but ironically that is how it often evolves.

Russia is of course many years behind the US in promoting an atmosphere where this process need not be so difficult.

With the exception of skinheads who hate everybody anyway, you don't usually see straight men with this "fag" mentality.
It is usually a closetcase.
If a straight kid does it, he should learn that it has this image.

When you point at someone, look at your hand, and see three times as many fingers, pointing at yourself.

Hetrosexual men's perception of their manhood is almost never threatened from within, or from gays.




Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Not all Christians today are following the hate of some church leaders.
This parent's website has me reconsidering my previous statement of the church no longer being of help.

Anyone with a conflict on this issue and religion should read this site.

http://www.familyacceptance.org/home.html


Here is another link of another family's story though a sad one:

http://www.honorthychildren.org/HTC...acceptance.html

These brave parents are making a big difference.

There is still a long way to go.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Sep25.html


Posted by: Ellen

Gay parades in Russia would save no one problem of gays but only add new ones So better leave such methodes of fighting for a right to have sex with whoever you wish for your own countries.


Posted by: Leprechaun

Why do you say this Ellen?

Should there be no "New" gays in Russia?


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leprechaun
Why do you say this Ellen?

Should there be no "New" gays in Russia?


I say that because I don;t see how gay parades ( exactly SUCH form of "protest" - "fight for rigts" or whatever they mean with those parades. I think topic was started to drive an attention exactly to issue of gay parades) ) could low a dislike of gays from people who don't like them. From my viewpoint they could only raise a dislke among those who were "neitral" before

PS BTW I didn;t get what "NEW" gays meant Was some NEW methode to have sex created which I have not idea about?


Posted by: Leprechaun

Well, You cant just attack people you dont like or disagree with.

I shouldnt have to explain that.


Posted by: Leprechaun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen

PS BTW I didn;t get what "NEW" gays meat Was some NEW methode to have sex created which I have not idea about?


Dont worry, I must have not understood you =o)
I thought you meant new gays, you meant new protests.

oooops =o)


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leprechaun
Well, You cant just attack people you dont like or disagree with.

I shouldnt have to explain that.


Look Would not mind to express yourself more simple and clear because English is not my mother languae So what does what you posted above have to do with my viewpoint about gays parades?


Posted by: Leprechaun

I saw your english was not great, so I did post simple words.

It seems you are posting with better english than me.

My post says "if you do not dislike gay, you do not attack gay"

all people gay or not gay have right to protest.


Posted by: Russia4Ever

well im gay and ive been to russija before, lived there for 3 months until my stay ran out. noone bothered me at all. guess cause i have good straight guy friends wholl fight for me if i get cornered but its ok with me, i dont mind. its not a choice, its how i and so many others were born and iam proud to say that iam gay, even more prouder to say im going BACK to russija again, only this time for an even longer stay.


Posted by: Leprechaun

How did you feel about events yesterday R4E?


Posted by: Russia4Ever

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leprechaun
How did you feel about events yesterday R4E?



the anti gay parade marsch-? well for one, iam very happy that is got lifted off the ground......but im heartbroken that the mayor of moscow said that 'homosexuality is the work of the devil!" and im sure all the gay, bi, and lesbian teens in moscow and in all of russija are offended just as much as iam even here in amerika. russija, as well as moscow as a whole needs to wake up and see the gay people live in your country! we live in flats, apts, eat in mcdonalds, go to the nightclubs, have fun and live perfectly normal lives. of course, russian orthodox religion is a little controversial in accepting homosexuality, as is almost ever other faith under the sun.....but thank god russija and all major russian villages and major cities are more accepting, its just the govt that tries to silence us, but were not going to be silent no more one day soon!


Posted by: Ellen

Attitude to gay parades is different inside gays society as well NOt evrybody among gays/lebians thinks that beeing more "laud" is the best way to became accepted by others in Russia.

BTW speaking about attitude to homosexuality. It;s funny that when some posters at internet board of male gender from "civlized" countries whished to insult me ( because they went of all other arguments in discussions with me) they called me lesbian I think that does say something how fine things at civlized West with that issue :P



Ps BTW My question what "NEW gays" meant and should there be new gays of should not remains unaswered. IF it meant "more" gays then my answer like a woman with stright orientation would be - No. I don't think there should be more of them I think there should be more "normal" males as there is a lack of them here


Posted by: Leprechaun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen


BTW speaking about attitude to homosexuality. It;s funny that when some posters at internet board of male gender from "civlized" countries whished to insult me ( because they went of all other arguments in discussions with me) they called me lesbian I think that does say something how fine things at civlized West with that issue :P


Im sorry if a few people called you a lesbian,
please do not think we are not civilized because of "Some" posters on forum.

The same as I do not think all russia to be anti-gay because of march.


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leprechaun
Im sorry if a few people called you a lesbian,
please do not think we are not civilized because of "Some" posters on forum.

The same as I do not think all russia to be anti-gay because of march.


I 'm not "sorry" about beeing called lesbian at all It was really funny how people who were supposed to be from civlized country where all people are supposed to have equil rights tried to insult Russian woman in a way which just didn;'t work here .

I of course don;t think that all Americans ( that one was from America) are the same But such acident does speak someting about attitude to lesbians in the west ( as an idea that it could be an insult crossed a mind of American)


Posted by: Leprechaun

I wish civilized countries were actually civilized!


Posted by: ira156

Well i was going to stay away from this one but. I am not homophobic but i dont believe being gay is normal...our anatomy tells us that. I dont think being gay should be something to be proud of....nor should a gay be ashamed either...they should be proud of the person they are not the sex they prefer.

Here in Sydney to my knowledge we have the biggest gay pride parade in the world...have had it for many years...and its even broadcast live on commercial TV. We dont have parades depicting hetro sexual behaviour...we have a constant bombardment of shows like Queer eye for the straight guy and Queer as folks...a new one from the US like Joe millionare where the woman has to try and pick the straight guy from the gay ones by using her gaydar. This week a pub here even got an exemption to the discimination act so they could ban all "non gay men" from a pub....this includes banning lesbians. Gay men cannot be refused entry to any establishment by law.

I have no problem having a beer with a gay guy and talking about sport...religion...politics ect ect...but those i have spoken to in mutual company including women seem to constantly refer back to there sexual orientation and how they are different. For most "normal" people it would be considered inappopriate to discuss the things i have heard except in only the most intimate of company...and sometimes not even then.

Almost all mature adults...im not talking teenagers here...dont discuss there sexual preferences/behaviour in company. This to my knowledge is the only thing that makes a gay guy different from me...our sexual preference....we both get up under the same sun..eat the same food ...drink the same water ect ect ect. If this is the case then why do we have to have parades and marches in the first place.

We dont have beastiality parades..foot fetish parades...chronic mastibater parades...guys that dress up in diapers to get their rocks off parades.

On one hand gays say they are just normal people who are the same as us ( excepting their sexual orientaion)......but on the other hand they have a parade to show us all how different they are????????


If they want to be excepted...keep their sexual life in the privacy of their homes like most others do and get on with their lives.

Dont say we are no different to you .....then have a parade to show us how different you are ...because you will be treated differently...just my 2 cents. Cheers


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
We dont have beastiality parades..foot fetish parades...chronic mastibater parades...guys that dress up in diapers to get their rocks off parades.


So, in your opinion being gay is like having a foot fetish?


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
So, in your opinion being gay is like having a foot fetish?




YES. Inlove Gays will say there is nothing different about them other than their "personal sexual preference". People with a foot fetish...or in to bondage ect are no different....they will tell you there is nothing different about them other than they get sexual gratification from feet. Our Nature and personal biology tells us that the ANUS is not designed for sex...so it is not natural...its a preference or attraction....just as feet attract others.

In nature any animal that is "gay" will lose its geneline and thus die out...why ???...because its not natural.

I dont believe i have the right to judge anyone...and if this is their preference then thats fine. But dont have a pride parade to try an convince me it is in anyway NORMAL...its not. If gays kept their "private sex lives" private then they wouldnt have anywhere near the problems that they do. Cheers


Posted by: Spakoyna

If ya'll wanna be gay or lesbian...FINE! Just don't push your crap on me! As Ira says in a round about way...if ya quit infecting the normal...ya will die out...two guys or women f'n can't make a baby. So you donors stop given in and letting these different folks have a baby to corrupt! That goes for adoptions too in my opinion. It ain't the way nature intended it to be!


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
If ya'll wanna be gay or lesbian...FINE! Just don't push your crap on me! As Ira says in a round about way...if ya quit infecting the normal...ya will die out...two guys or women f'n can't make a baby. So you donors stop given in and letting these different folks have a baby to corrupt! That goes for adoptions too in my opinion. It ain't the way nature intended it to be!




The thing is Spak if it was in anyway shape or form "NORMAL" there would be no need for parades or discussions like this. It would even raise a mention.


Posted by: Jerico

Quote:
I dont believe i have the right to judge anyone...and if this is their preference then thats fine. But dont have a pride parade to try an convince me it is in anyway NORMAL...its not. If gays kept their "private sex lives" private then they wouldnt have anywhere near the problems that they do. Cheers

I agree with ya IRA on this one.
Hey I know plenty of gay people and you know what, they dont tell me everyday that thier gay and proud, they just act like normal people would.

Jerry


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
I agree with ya IRA on this one.
Hey I know plenty of gay people and you know what, they dont tell me everyday that thier gay and proud, they just act like normal people would.

Jerry



Spot on Jerry. Unfortunately most of the ones i have met havent been like that ...but the ones that were i got along with really well. Cheers Mate


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
If ya'll wanna be gay or lesbian...FINE! Just don't push your crap on me! As Ira says in a round about way...if ya quit infecting the normal...ya will die out...two guys or women f'n can't make a baby. So you donors stop given in and letting these different folks have a baby to corrupt! That goes for adoptions too in my opinion. It ain't the way nature intended it to be!


Oh! I guess you are not a homophob either, are you?


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
YES. Inlove Gays will say there is nothing different about them other than their "personal sexual preference". People with a foot fetish...or in to bondage ect are no different....they will tell you there is nothing different about them other than they get sexual gratification from feet. Our Nature and personal biology tells us that the ANUS is not designed for sex...so it is not natural...its a preference or attraction....just as feet attract others.

This post tells me two things Ira.
1. You don't understand that most anal sex is heterosexual.

2. You don't understand many gay men don't practice anal sex.

Focusing on where different bits go is a very superficial understanding of sexuality.

Actually there is something substantially different between a gender sexual preference and a fetish. With a fetishist, a fetish object or desire is required for sexual function - like an erection. That is substantially different to a gender based attraction.

I am, as most times, somewhat in the middle of this. I would support a right to a civil union ceremony for gays and lesbians but I don't support their subjugation of the term "marriage". I think that term should be reserved for heterosexual unions.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
If ya'll wanna be gay or lesbian...FINE! Just don't push your crap on me! As Ira says in a round about way...if ya quit infecting the normal...ya will die out...two guys or women f'n can't make a baby. So you donors stop given in and letting these different folks have a baby to corrupt! That goes for adoptions too in my opinion. It ain't the way nature intended it to be!


And how did nature intend to be Spakonya?

As for dying out, until recently Gays and Lesbians have in general NOT had children except for unusual cases and they don't appear to be "dying out" as you put it.

If you actually had a look at the statistics being a child in a gay or lesbian relationship has NO effect on whether the children in that relationship are gay or lesbian.

It makes sense if you think about it.

All gay kids come from heterosexual unions. Why would the reverse not also be true?

Finally, for your ridiculous comment on infection.. I am just exasperated. Next you will be telling me haemophiliacs deserved it too.


Posted by: Leprechaun

The fact that there are sexes in the world that prefer the same sex is never going away, its a fact that it happens to the human body, watching gay programs, seeing gay parades, falling for someone gay, will happen, regardless, its not a disease but a state of mind, body and soul, like it or not.

Parades happen for certain reasons, its a form of protest, its a voice, its a cry to be heard, a show of strenght, we are here.

Put one and one together.

Id prefer the gay parade to the Neo Nazi ones, as they dress better and dance to better music ;o)


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leprechaun
The fact that there are sexes in the world that prefer the same sex is never going away, its a fact that it happens to the human body, watching gay programs, seeing gay parades, falling for someone gay, will happen, regardless, its not a disease but a state of mind, body and soul, like it or not.

Parades happen for certain reasons, its a form of protest, its a voice, its a cry to be heard, a show of strenght, we are here.

Put one and one together.

Id prefer the gay parade to the Neo Nazi ones, as they dress better and dance to better music ;o)



Your right Lep it wont go away...just as Neo Nazi's...paedophiles and the likes wont either ...doesnt make it normal...and it doesnt need to be thrust down our thoats either.

Dont proclaim how they are just like us ...then have a parade to show how different they are.....to each "his or her" own...emphasis on "to each"...not to all. Cheers Mate


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Your right Lep it wont go away...just as Neo Nazi's...paedophiles and the likes wont either ...doesnt make it normal...and it doesnt need to be thrust down our thoats either.


Well that answers it for me. I am just stunned Ira.
To put freely consenting adults into the same category as Nazi's and paedophiles.
I am just at a loss for words.

Since you seen so definte about what is NOT normal, kindly define what IS normal for me?


Posted by: Ellen

"Normal" is all what was created by nature ( or by God if you wish) for continue of existance of life - that's the only one goal of nature like I get it.
.
All other is just deviation from that norm. That does not mean that people who were born with any deviation should be a target for any discrimination But it also does not mean that that "diviation" is "norm".

Also it's norm ( I hope so) to keep information what you do in bedroom in private All deviaions behind closed doors are norm if both ( or how many participators could be there ) agree with those deviations.


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
Well that answers it for me. I am just stunned Ira.
To put freely consenting adults into the same category as Nazi's and paedophiles.
I am just at a loss for words.

Since you seen so definte about what is NOT normal, kindly define what IS normal for me?



Ok Decci ...firstly Lep brought up the Neo-Nazi's first that why the reference to them. Paedophiles ( not child rapists) truely believe that they "love" children....having sex with them is THEIR ultimate expression of that love....and their comment will be that WE dont understand what to them is "normal". As for your previous reference to "anal sex being more prevelent in hetrosexual relationships than homosexual.

A study carried out by the University of california ( HIV insight study) 25% of hetrosexuals try anal sex during their life.......10% actual consider it a part of their normal sex life. If you are trying to tell me that less than 10% of gay men practice Anal sex then I HAVE NO IDEA.

As far as the comment of spreading disease ( which i didnt do but will now answer you statement).

The anus has a very thin membraine protecting the blood vessels....it is not designed for "INSERTING" things. People recieving infected sperm are far more likely to contract aids ect than those giving. 60% of aids cases in the US are gay men...even though they comprise only 6-7% of the population. 50% of new cases and 72% of new cases in males come from Male to Male sex. Make of it what you want.

I gather your partner is female so i would think that you are hetrosexual..so i would asume thats normal for you. There are 2 sexes for a reason Decci...its nature. Its one of the few things that almost all societies...all religions....and EVEN NATURE agrees on...so NOTHING you or anyone else can say will convince me otherwise.

Let me set you straight ...i DONT condone violence against gays...I DONT condone discrimination against gays....i just expect them to keep their private lives to themselves...just as everyone else does...not hold parades to try and convince me that its in some way normal. Cheers Mate


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
"Normal" is all what was created by nature ( or by God if you wish) for continue of existance of life - that's the only one goal of nature like I get it.

I was wondering when the nature argument would come up.

Sexual ambiguity exists in nature. Some people are born with ambiguous gender - IT HAPPENS - as a result of a natural process - i certainly don't see humans intervening in that just yet.

Some animals - fish especially - change sex as the situation demands it.

Finally, sexuality is much more than reproduction. It exists as a reinforcement to the pair bond as well.

Also, you are being rather selective aren't you? It is also "natural" for people to die of disease isn't it? Didn't god put those very same bacteria and viruses on this earth? So, why should we take medication but rather let "nature" take it's course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
All other is just deviation from that norm. That does not mean that people who were born with any deviation should be a target for any discrimination But it also does not mean that that "diviation" is "norm".

Also it's norm ( I hope so) to keep information what you do in bedroom in private All deviaions behind closed doors are norm if both ( or how many participators could be there ) agree with those deviations.


I'll give you a different explanation Ellen since you use the term "norm". A Norm is simply a majority. Whether it is right or wrong or natural or unnatural is completely irrelevant.
As lep said the pride marches are about activism since they consider they are getting a raw deal.
Thus the "norm" in USA pre civil war would be to beleive in slavery. As would "the norm" before the suffragette movement that women should be denied the vote. Morality is irrelevant when you use the words "norm" and "normal".


Posted by: deccie

Will post a detailed reply to Ira's post when I get home.


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
I was wondering when the nature argument would come up.

Sexual ambiguity exists in nature. Some people are born with ambiguous gender - IT HAPPENS - as a result of a natural process - i certainly don't see humans intervening in that just yet.

Some animals - fish especially - change sex as the situation demands it.

Finally, sexuality is much more than reproduction. It exists as a reinforcement to the pair bond as well.

Also, you are being rather selective aren't you? It is also "natural" for people to die of disease isn't it? Didn't god put those very same bacteria and viruses on this earth? So, why should we take medication but rather let "nature" take it's course.


I'll give you a different explanation Ellen since you use the term "norm". A Norm is simply a majority. Whether it is right or wrong or natural or unnatural is completely irrelevant.
As lep said the pride marches are about activism since they consider they are getting a raw deal.
Thus the "norm" in USA pre civil war would be to beleive in slavery. As would "the norm" before the suffragette movement that women should be denied the vote. Morality is irrelevant when you use the words "norm" and "normal".



Decci that RAW DEAL is covered by the equal opportunities and sexual discimination acts in Victoria. Yet in Melbourne a pub just had an exemption granted so that gay men are the ONLY ones permitted in that pub...BY LAW.

But i cant go to a pub that wont admit gays if i so choose....so they have actually got more rights than i do.

Im with Ellen where i have no problem with consenting adults being gay....whipping each other....dressing in diapers...or sh!tting on each other...if its in their own privacy.

Ok we will drop the word "normal" and say NATURAL. There are 2 sexes for a reason. Yes some fish change sex...the whole sexual reproductive biology ...they do it naturally.......we are not talking about men that can change into women naturally Dec....ask any doctor if its healthy to go shoving something designed to go into a womans Vagina....and stick it in a place designed for ridding the body of waste...theres a reason its called sh!t Decci. If you have ever been in severe pain the quickest way to get drugs into your body other than intraveniously ...is by supository....its the surest way to get diseases into you as well. Cheers Dec.


Posted by: Spakoyna

Ira, I would chime in but your doing such a good job I'm just kicking back and watching!

I'll add this: I have always felt most gays have an insecurity issue or self confidence issue around women. I can remember the obvious gays in my school before the gays came out of the closet. They didn't fit in with hardly anyone. Seemed the only friends they had were the girls who were not popular with the guys or gals...usually because they were overweight,etc.

Now, can someone please pass me some more popcorn!


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
I was wondering when the nature argument would come up.

Sexual ambiguity exists in nature. Some people are born with ambiguous gender - IT HAPPENS - as a result of a natural process - i certainly don't see humans intervening in that just yet.

Some animals - fish especially - change sex as the situation demands it.

Finally, sexuality is much more than reproduction. It exists as a reinforcement to the pair bond as well.

Also, you are being rather selective aren't you? It is also "natural" for people to die of disease isn't it? Didn't god put those very same bacteria and viruses on this earth? So, why should we take medication but rather let "nature" take it's course.


I'll give you a different explanation Ellen since you use the term "norm". A Norm is simply a majority. Whether it is right or wrong or natural or unnatural is completely irrelevant.
As lep said the pride marches are about activism since they consider they are getting a raw deal.
Thus the "norm" in USA pre civil war would be to beleive in slavery. As would "the norm" before the suffragette movement that women should be denied the vote. Morality is irrelevant when you use the words "norm" and "normal".


Of course society can determinate what is norm and what's not norm But there are things which could not be change - one leg is not norm, 6 fingers at one hand are not norm, sex with the same gender is not norm as well. Homosexuality could be accepted in society but by all mean it is not norm for majority.

More over I belive that nature made sure that her creatures would not mistake what to do with their genitalias and created some stopper inside majority which forses that majority to "dislike" homosexual idea on sub... ( sorry forget a word - would post it later) level. Being civilzed we can "fight" that animal instinct of disliking homosexuality But forsing a stright majority to think it's normal is too much. Sorry.


About taking medicaltion and etc I'm not beliver so refering to god is not for me. I belive only in nature Bacteria have the same right for life. Humans are created to die as well. Fighting for a life is natura law - death of ones means a life for others. So I can't get your argument. I can't see special "purpose" for guys/lesbians creation. May be there is some But till now I just can't see it. For me it's just "mistake" which happens time from time.
Any way discussion about reasons of God-nature-etc for creation homosexualists is above my abilities. I just can say my opinion about what would make me accept them Gay parades is that thing which could only raise a dislike inside me. That's all.


Posted by: Cheburashka

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
Ira, I would chime in but your doing such a good job I'm just kicking back and watching!
Now, can someone please pass me some more popcorn!


Me too! I think we are almost at the part where the car crash and gunfight break out. Milk Duds anyone? This is getting good.


Posted by: deccie

Sorry, but I have to use this pun.. What an absolute PITA that I am on such a slow link..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Ok Decci ...firstly Lep brought up the Neo-Nazi's first that why the reference to them. Paedophiles ( not child rapists) truely believe that they "love" children....having sex with them is THEIR ultimate expression of that love....and their comment will be that WE dont understand what to them is "normal".

To compare paedophiles and homosexuals is like comparing rapists and an freely consentual hetrosexual encounter. i.e. no comparison at all.
For homosexuals there are at least in a sexual act two consenting adults. In the case of paedohpiles it is about one adult and a child who is being taken advantage of, used, abused etc. So I reject completely your analogy. (another pun perhaps? (-: )

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
As for your previous reference to "anal sex being more prevelent in hetrosexual relationships than homosexual.

A study carried out by the University of california ( HIV insight study) 25% of hetrosexuals try anal sex during their life.......10% actual consider it a part of their normal sex life. If you are trying to tell me that less than 10% of gay men practice Anal sex then I HAVE NO IDEA.

There are two issues here. One is that anal sex is JUST as prevalent in the wider heterosexual community. If you think it isn't, perhaps some questions to your local hookers or a visit to the local porn shop might be in order to convince you otherwise. The second is that for exactly the reasons you outline many gay men are equally not interested in anal sex. Oral sex is the most common sexual act between gay men.

Separate your predjudices Ira. A predjudice against homosexuality is not the same as a predjudice against anal sex. Not the same thing by any means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
As far as the comment of spreading disease ( which i didnt do but will now answer you statement).


The anus has a very thin membraine protecting the blood vessels....it is not designed for "INSERTING" things. People recieving infected sperm are far more likely to contract aids ect than those giving. 60% of aids cases in the US are gay men...even though they comprise only 6-7% of the population. 50% of new cases and 72% of new cases in males come from Male to Male sex. Make of it what you want.

Lets take that a bit further shall we. It is easier for a woman to catch HIV off her husband than it is for a woman to pass HIV to her husband. Excluding anal sex the most likely entry point for HIV on a man is via the foreskin. I would certainly think that the penis IS an organ designed for sex as is the Vagina and womb. It's still no defence against disease and I think rather a lot of African men and women would agree with that point especially since the rates of HIV transmission in Africa VIA HETEROSEXUAL UNION far exceed those of the US. So I do not understand your point at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
I gather your partner is female so i would think that you are hetrosexual..so i would asume thats normal for you. There are 2 sexes for a reason Decci...its nature. Its one of the few things that almost all societies...all religions....and EVEN NATURE agrees on...so NOTHING you or anyone else can say will convince me otherwise.


My sexual orientation is none of your business and is not pertinent to this discussion. Funny how you think Nature has an opinion on this. Can't say I see how.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Decci that RAW DEAL is covered by the equal opportunities and sexual discimination acts in Victoria. Yet in Melbourne a pub just had an exemption granted so that gay men are the ONLY ones permitted in that pub...BY LAW.

But i cant go to a pub that wont admit gays if i so choose....so they have actually got more rights than i do.

I don't give a flying f*ck about mistakes in law. Any of us can and have pointed to ridiculous points of law on all sides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Dec....ask any doctor if its healthy to go shoving something designed to go into a womans Vagina....and stick it in a place designed for ridding the body of waste...theres a reason its called sh!t Decci. If you have ever been in severe pain the quickest way to get drugs into your body other than intraveniously ...is by supository....its the surest way to get diseases into you as well. Cheers Dec.

Well, considering a woman's plumbing by design retains another person's body fluids inside her that seems equally to be a method vulnerable to disease.

And women catch all sorts of problems by virtue of the vagina and anus being so close together. Ira, if you want to argue about anal sex I'll argue it with you. If you want to argue about homosexuality I'll argue that too. But to link these two together is an absolute WANK.


Posted by: waiting123

Come on folks, take cheb up on his offer and enjoy some milk duds.

Homosexuality is condemned by a lot of people and religions, but you have to respect thet persons wishes. If that person chooses to engage in homosexual acts, then that is his wish and desire, why not let him. Is his actions affecting you some how.

We all have to realize that there are billions of people in this world, and billions of attitudes and opinions.

This is not a forum to become defensive or argumentative with each other, if you agree or disagree, say so... but why start a ridiculous argument that ends up driving members away.

So lets all take a deep breath, relax, eat a milk dud. I will not say lets have a groupo hug in this thread. And lets see if we can get beck on track of talking and not fighting.

Thanks


Posted by: deccie

Firstly Ellen, Thank you for your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
Of course society can determinate what is norm and what's not norm But there are things which could not be change - one leg is not norm, 6 fingers at one hand are not norm, sex with the same gender is not norm as well. Homosexuality could be accepted in society but by all mean it is not norm for majority.
Well, I do not accept your preface. One COULD change the number of toes, number of legs if you really wanted to do it. I am not saying we should only that it is possible. The human body has changed in significant ways over the last few hundred years. Go have a look at a 3-400 year old adult skeleton in a museum if you don't beleive me. Mutation of the human genome happens in nature. Of course if homosexuality is genetic it is continually deleterious UNTIL we reach the point that reproduction is independant of natural mechanics - exactly where we are today. Reproduction can be independant of these mechanics - if we so choose. Again I am not saying we should, only that it COULD be done. This argument should only be taken in context of what you have written above and NOTHING else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
More over I belive that nature made sure that her creatures would not mistake what to do with their genitalias and created some stopper inside majority which forses that majority to "dislike" homosexual idea on sub... ( sorry forget a word - would post it later) level. Being civilzed we can "fight" that animal instinct of disliking homosexuality But forsing a stright majority to think it's normal is too much. Sorry.

This is not a subject I can easliy research here as this is NOT a free society.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
About taking medicaltion and etc I'm not beliver so refering to god is not for me. I belive only in nature Bacteria have the same right for life. Humans are created to die as well. Fighting for a life is natura law - death of ones means a life for others. So I can't get your argument. I can't see special "purpose" for guys/lesbians creation. May be there is some But till now I just can't see it. For me it's just "mistake" which happens time from time.
.


To things from this.. 1. perhaps in your case bacteria is a bad choice.. but I would ask you, do you heat your home in the middle of a Russian winter Ellen? If you do, is your power source from a nuclear power station? Is that natural?
Secondly, if it is a mistake who has made it? God? Nature? or man?
As for a special purpose, I have a hard enough time working out why I am here let alone anyone else with other problems!
But, I seriously have to wonder about the "choice" argument. Especially given what sort of a life a lot of homosexuals endure. I have a hard time accepting anyone would willingly make a choice like that unless there really was no choice at all.


Posted by: Jerico

Well Deccie I dont want to get into the types of sex between two people ,LOL.
Like I said before , I know a few gay guys and it is obvious thier gay by the way they act and stuff , different from the normal male so to speak.
They have already said they are Gay as well so as to know doubt.
I have gone out to clubs and stuff in the past with these guys and I was fine with it. They didn`t have to keep telling me thier Gay and Proud to be GAY.

You see the problem with many of these so called Gay pride parades is that
its not enough that you dont care if thier GAY or not. They want YOU to accept thier lifestyle choice and just keep ramming it down our throats. This is when it gets irritating to people.

I wont get into the religious aspects as i am not very religious myself. Who cares what two cosenting adults do in the bedroom and yes anytime you have sex with someone unknown ( gay or straight) you take a chance of getting a disease. Lets face it pretty much AIDS here in the USA is a disease mainly effecting the GAY community.

Hell I live by San Francisco and this place is one of the Gay capitol of the world.
I can remember walking down the street and seeing two Gay over weight guys with full on beards making out and foundling each other right on the sidewalk!! I dont want to see this , LOL.

Some of these Gays in San Francisco also have a type of sex party where they have about 6 guys participate in sex with each other and one of the guys has AIDS but you dont know who. Its a sort of Russian Roulette. Sorry but if you have sex like this with multiple guys with the (exciting )risk of getting Aids and you do get the disease , well I simply cant feel sorry for you.
This story was in the newspapers here years a few years ago and I did not make this up.

If your GAY great , good for you, just dont make it your life`s goal to change my thoughts on the matter is all I ask.
Jerry


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Well Deccie I dont want to get into the types of sex between two people ,LOL.
Like I said before , I know a few gay guys and it is obvious thier gay by the way they act and stuff , different from the normal male so to speak.
They have already said they are Gay as well so as to know doubt.
I have gone out to clubs and stuff in the past with these guys and I was fine with it. They didn`t have to keep telling me thier Gay and Proud to be GAY.

You see the problem with many of these so called Gay pride parades is that
its not enough that you dont care if thier GAY or not. They want YOU to accept thier lifestyle choice and just keep ramming it down our throats. This is when it gets irritating to people.

I wont get into the religious aspects as i am not very religious myself. Who cares what two cosenting adults do in the bedroom and yes anytime you have sex with someone unknown ( gay or straight) you take a chance of getting a disease. Lets face it pretty much AIDS here in the USA is a disease mainly effecting the GAY community.

Hell I live by San Francisco and this place is one of the Gay capitol of the world.
I can remember walking down the street and seeing two Gay over weight guys with full on beards making out and foundling each other right on the sidewalk!! I dont want to see this , LOL.

Some of these Gays in San Francisco also have a type of sex party where they have about 6 guys participate in sex with each other and one of the guys has AIDS but you dont know who. Its a sort of Russian Roulette. Sorry but if you have sex like this with multiple guys with the (exciting )risk of getting Aids and you do get the disease , well I simply cant feel sorry for you.
This story was in the newspapers here years a few years ago and I did not make this up.

If your GAY great , good for you, just dont make it your life`s goal to change my thoughts on the matter is all I ask.
Jerry



Exactly what ive been trying to say Jerry ...but according to Decci there is no link between Gay men and Anal sex...so you must have it wrong...LOL.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Exactly what ive been trying to say Jerry ...but according to Decci there is no link between Gay men and Anal sex...so you must have it wrong...LOL.


Of course there are gay men who have anal sex. There are loads of women too.
I was once on a rape case jury. There were several women on the jury panel. Somehow a discussion on sexual practices came up (i forget the context) - nothing to do with gays - and several of the women freely admitted they had anal sex with their husbands.

One lady I dated also had a previous male partner that was into this. She wasn't, but was prepared to indulge him this if she thought they were suitable long term partners. They weren't.


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
Firstly Ellen, Thank you for your post.
Well, I do not accept your preface. One COULD change the number of toes, number of legs if you really wanted to do it. I am not saying we should only that it is possible. The human body has changed in significant ways over the last few hundred years. Go have a look at a 3-400 year old adult skeleton in a museum if you don't beleive me. Mutation of the human genome happens in nature. Of course if homosexuality is genetic it is continually deleterious UNTIL we reach the point that reproduction is independant of natural mechanics - exactly where we are today. Reproduction can be independant of these mechanics - if we so choose. Again I am not saying we should, only that it COULD be done. This argument should only be taken in context of what you have written above and NOTHING else.

My point was that there were things which I count like norm ( talks were about what 's norm) because that's how nature crerated them for it's purpose - to continue life in this world. You of course could change your body now But I some how can't recall any improvement made by humans. If even there are such of that kind then it's only if it was a "mistake" of nature which caused deviation from a norm. As for mutation then of course there is such tool in nature's arsenal But it's too derected on archivment of main goal - to continue life. ( hardly homosexuality suits such purpose) As for a dream that reproduction would be some day "independent" process well.... I'm just glad I will not live in those times I prefer old methode - through sex with oposite gender All other methodes are just suggorate but not norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
To things from this.. 1. perhaps in your case bacteria is a bad choice.. but I would ask you, do you heat your home in the middle of a Russian winter Ellen? If you do, is your power source from a nuclear power station? Is that natural?
Secondly, if it is a mistake who has made it? God? Nature? or man?
As for a special purpose, I have a hard enough time working out why I am here let alone anyone else with other problems!
But, I seriously have to wonder about the "choice" argument. Especially given what sort of a life a lot of homosexuals endure. I have a hard time accepting anyone would willingly make a choice like that unless there really was no choice at all.

I do heart my house Nature gave me my brains to find a way to warm myself. How natural those methodes of heatring is not an inssue in this discussion because it's not "biological" creaures.

Mistakes could be made by nature, by humans ( I read recently that some drugs took during pregnansy could raise a % of homosexuals) and etc ( including God who I don't belive in) Whoever it could be it's still a mistake (but not a norm) made by anybody else but not by homosexualists themselves. I didn't speak that it was their "choice". But I meant "true" homosexualists There are also those who do that because of money - willingly or because they were involved in that. But that's another case and they just can't last too long in this "business" Because it's just against their true nature.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Well Deccie I dont want to get into the types of sex between two people ,LOL.
Like I said before , I know a few gay guys and it is obvious thier gay by the way they act and stuff , different from the normal male so to speak.
They have already said they are Gay as well so as to know doubt.
I have gone out to clubs and stuff in the past with these guys and I was fine with it. They didn`t have to keep telling me thier Gay and Proud to be GAY

First question.. Were they pissed? Second, were they stoned?
Lots of hetro guys do stupid things and say stupid things when going out on a night on the town too.. I don't really see a line between some twerp yelling out "show us your tits!" compared to "I'm proud to be gay, man!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
You see the problem with many of these so called Gay pride parades is that
its not enough that you dont care if thier GAY or not. They want YOU to accept thier lifestyle choice and just keep ramming it down our throats. This is when it gets irritating to people.

I don't think the Far Right Christian Evangelists are going to stop pushing their views down my throat any time soon either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
I wont get into the religious aspects as i am not very religious myself. Who cares what two cosenting adults do in the bedroom and yes anytime you have sex with someone unknown ( gay or straight) you take a chance of getting a disease. Lets face it pretty much AIDS here in the USA is a disease mainly effecting the GAY community.

Yes, but in other parts of the world it is NOT.
HIV is now progressing through PNG just north of Australia at very alarming rates and again it is the heterosexual community where this is happening. I would have thought the intravenous drug user would be the highest risk in the USA because of the sharing of needles. I would suggest HIV transmission in Russia is the same. (mixed in with prostitutes)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Hell I live by San Francisco and this place is one of the Gay capitol of the world.
I can remember walking down the street and seeing two Gay over weight guys with full on beards making out and foundling each other right on the sidewalk!! I dont want to see this , LOL.

I can understand that - but there are lots of stuff that goes on like that. I wouldn't want to see a fat-o-gram either thanks!
If you have the same standards for all - i.e. you don't want to see a guy grope his girl on the sidewalk either then I see no problem with your request.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Some of these Gays in San Francisco also have a type of sex party where they have about 6 guys participate in sex with each other and one of the guys has AIDS but you dont know who. Its a sort of Russian Roulette. Sorry but if you have sex like this with multiple guys with the (exciting )risk of getting Aids and you do get the disease , well I simply cant feel sorry for you.
This story was in the newspapers here years a few years ago and I did not make this up.

Well, stupidity knows no bounds is all I can say. It can cross all divides!
All minorities and majorities!


Posted by: inlove

Deccie,
You cannot win this argument. Homosexuality, as well as politics, religion and abortion, is one of those topics where people take firm stands on one side or another, and it is very unlikely that they will even try to look into each other's reasoning for doing so.


Posted by: Jerico

Quote:
If you have the same standards for all - i.e. you don't want to see a guy grope his girl on the sidewalk either then I see no problem with your request.

Ya Deccie i dont want to see this either ,Hehhe.
You have to admit though seeing a guy and girl groping on the street is a little less noticable than two big guys full on making out in the street ,

You know i go out to this club about once a week and lesbians and some gays guys go here too. They dont bother me at all.

A few months back I was at this club and this younger guy was looking at me when i came out of the bathroom. Hehe , he looked like he wanted to ask me something. When i walked by him he said " HEY"
I said " ya"
He says " Your incredibly beautiful"
I didn`t know what to say except " Hey man I am married and dont go that way" Then i walked off kind of chuckled about it to myself.
When I got home I told my wife about it ( wife hates going with me to the clubs). She said I should of responded "why thank you" to this guy , Heheh
For the longest time she keep calling me "incredibly beautiful " for my name.
It was funny and I still see this guy in the club but he never says anything to me which is OK ,Hehe.


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
YES. Inlove Gays will say there is nothing different about them other than their "personal sexual preference". People with a foot fetish...or in to bondage ect are no different....they will tell you there is nothing different about them other than they get sexual gratification from feet. Our Nature and personal biology tells us that the ANUS is not designed for sex...so it is not natural...its a preference or attraction....just as feet attract others.


You really think that foot fetishists have sex with feet?

Quote:
I dont believe i have the right to judge anyone...and if this is their preference then thats fine. But dont have a pride parade to try an convince me it is in anyway NORMAL...its not. If gays kept their "private sex lives" private then they wouldnt have anywhere near the problems that they do. Cheers


Lep pointed out historical reasons for gay parades. And I have to apploud to the gay movement and congratulate them with success, because even though many of you guys don't like the fact that they don't stay in a closet, and instead are loud and clear with their message, very few people now days question homosexuals' right to exist and have sex with whom they want to. This was not the case 30 - 40 years ago.

Russia is behind for those 30-40 years from everybody else. Just to remind you, homosexuality was a criminal offense in the Soviet Union, punished by prison, so russian society has a long way to go in a subject of human rights in general, and rights of homosexuals in particular.


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
Russia is behind for those 30-40 years from everybody else. Just to remind you, homosexuality was a criminal offense in the Soviet Union, punished by prison, so russian society has a long way to go in a subject of human rights in general, and rights of homosexuals in particular.


Gay parades and being too laud at streets in Russia instead of courts if somebody's rights were broken would delay that process of moving into civlized world ( where gays have a right to marsh at streets with naked asses - yeah.. such a fine prospect) for next 30-40 years


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
Gay parades and being too laud at streets in Russia instead of courts if somebody's rights were broken would delay that process of moving into civlized world ( where gays have a right to marsh at streets with naked asses - yeah.. such a fine prospect) for next 30-40 years


Don't worry, you will get used to it.


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
Don't worry, you will get used to it.


How about MY rights if I have no wish to use to see somebody's asses at a street?

I really can't get what exactly they are fighting for.
I didn't hear too many stories how that gay movement hired some good attorney to fight for rights in a court or something like that All I hear aroud me it their laud cry that others don;t like them, don "know" they exist, don't accept them

Also I heard too many stories how it's hard to get a place in Russian show business now if you can't pass a "blue valley"


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
How about MY rights if I have no wish to use to see somebody's asses at a street?


You don't have to participate in the parade or watch it either.


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
You don't have to participate in the parade or watch it either.

Should I lock myself and my children in closet for that time?


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
Should I lock myself and my children in closet for that time?


It is definitely your choice, although most people just don't go where the parade is for a few hours while it is going on. But if you prefer sitting in the closet, it is up to you.


Posted by: Ellen

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
It is definitely your choice, although most people just don't go where the parade is for a few hours while it is going on. But if you prefer sitting in the closet, it is up to you.


I prefer that they would take into consideration MY opinion about their methodes of their fight if they wish to gain MY accept of them. Sure their actions are not intendent to be only for those who accept them already. A tactic to use "shoke" methodes is either a silly one or just has another goals which are some far from what they proclamate.


Posted by: Cheburashka

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
I don't think the Far Right Christian Evangelists are going to stop pushing their views down my throat any time soon either!


Oh yes we have. It was in our monthly newsletter to give up on deccie, he is hopeless. Everyone read the article, didn't you see it?


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
I prefer that they would take into consideration MY opinion about their methodes of their fight if they wish to gain MY accept of them.


I got it already, you don't have to continue explaining it any farther. You are fine with gays as long as they are not seen and preferably not heard. It is an understandable point of view, considering that you grew up in Soviet Union and live in Russia. As I've said, Russian society is about 30-40 years behind when it comes to the gay issue.


Posted by: inlove

By the way, speaking of people with one leg or six toes, a russian way of dealing with handicaped is to pretend they don't exist either.


Posted by: ira156

Ok for the people that are PRO on this thread. Let me give you a little clue as to why radicals go to these parades and start bashing gays.


Go back and look at my posts....I have said that the gays that i have met ( that dont go into the im proud to be gay and tell me their sex life) i have gotten along with rather well. I have stated CLEARLY that i DONT CONDONE VIOLENCE OR DISCRIMINATION agaisnt gays.....and whatever they or any consenting adults do in their PRIVATE lives is none of my buisness.

I have stated that its a case of not being "NATURAL" ...anatomicly biologicaly or ( for the most part ) socialy and religiously.


BUT NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! THE LIKES OF DECCI AND INLOVE WONT BE HAPPY TILL I SAY ...YEP ITS ALL FINE AND THEY ARE "NORMAL" AND WE SHOULD ALL JOIN IN THE PARADE.

Whats next do i have to actually participate in the gay scene to be politicly correct and make you guys happy.

If the politicly correct nazis and the GAYSTAPO left well enough alone you might find people more excepting.

As for Jerry's comments on the promiscurity side of it ...you want to do some research on the SAN FRANSISCO BATHOUSES OF THE 1970'S......a very crucial part in the spread of AIDS in the US. If you think the AIDS problem in Russia is bad now ....wait till this sort of behavior is classified as NORMAL or NATURAL or what ever politicaly correct term you want to put on it.

Im having a break from here....i will leave you to convert the raging homophobes....i may see you in a few months?????


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Ok for the people that are PRO on this thread. Let me give you a little clue as to why radicals go to these parades and start bashing gays.


Go back and look at my posts....I have said that the gays that i have met ( that dont go into the im proud to be gay and tell me their sex life) i have gotten along with rather well. I have stated CLEARLY that i DONT CONDONE VIOLENCE OR DISCRIMINATION agaisnt gays.....and whatever they or any consenting adults do in their PRIVATE lives is none of my buisness.

I have stated that its a case of not being "NATURAL" ...anatomicly biologicaly or ( for the most part ) socialy and religiously.


BUT NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! THE LIKES OF DECCI AND INLOVE WONT BE HAPPY TILL I SAY ...YEP ITS ALL FINE AND THEY ARE "NORMAL" AND WE SHOULD ALL JOIN IN THE PARADE.

Whats next do i have to actually participate in the gay scene to be politicly correct and make you guys happy.

If the politicly correct nazis and the GAYSTAPO left well enough alone you might find people more excepting.

As for Jerry's comments on the promiscurity side of it ...you want to do some research on the SAN FRANSISCO BATHOUSES OF THE 1970'S......a very crucial part in the spread of AIDS in the US. If you think the AIDS problem in Russia is bad now ....wait till this sort of behavior is classified as NORMAL or NATURAL or what ever politicaly correct term you want to put on it.

Im having a break from here....i will leave you to convert the raging homophobes....i may see you in a few months?????


It seems like people from down under really have a hot temper. What's up with you, guys? Is it the weather or something?

There is no need in yelling or leaving forum because you disagree with somebody's views on the issue. After all, whatever you think is your own opinion, and you have a right to express it and defend it, as long as you don't deny others of the same right.

You are against gay parades. Fine. Next time one comes into your town, nothing prohibits you from organizing a protest. That's what democracy is about.


Posted by: Spakoyna

Ira....you don't need to go! I must say I am quite surprised by Deccie and Inloves veiws on this topic(well... Maybe not Deccies! ). Perhaps they have the situation I have. My Sister's husband has a sister who is Gay. They stand up and argue with me...not aggressively...we are fine...but they know they will never change my views on this!

I don't knock Gay people...I accept them as people who are sick. Should all the Bipolars,skitzos,pedaphiles,etc. press their values on us as well? They will never experience the joy of love expressed with sex as nature intended it to be...It will always be awkward and artificial.

I will never understand how some people can believe it is normal to be Gay! Can either of you...deccie or Inlove explain this to me???????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
I will never understand how some people can believe it is normal to be Gay! Can either of you...deccie or Inlove explain this to me???????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????


Oh no, I would rather not. I don't see any use.


Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
Oh no, I would rather not. I don't see any use.


Cop Out!


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheburashka
Oh yes we have. It was in our monthly newsletter to give up on deccie, he is hopeless. Everyone read the article, didn't you see it?


Nah, Your not far right Cheb. Only about a 6 on the chilli scale.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
Deccie,
You cannot win this argument. Homosexuality, as well as politics, religion and abortion, is one of those topics where people take firm stands on one side or another, and it is very unlikely that they will even try to look into each other's reasoning for doing so.


Oh I know that Inlove. But I won't let them express a uniformity of view - especially one that has some factual errors in it.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
He says " Your incredibly beautiful"
I didn`t know what to say except " Hey man I am married and dont go that way" Then i walked off kind of chuckled about it to myself.
When I got home I told my wife about it ( wife hates going with me to the clubs). She said I should of responded "why thank you" to this guy , Heheh
For the longest time she keep calling me "incredibly beautiful " for my name.
It was funny and I still see this guy in the club but he never says anything to me which is OK ,Hehe.


heh, funny! All I can say is that guy and your wife can appreciate you in a way that completely escapes me! heh!


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
You really think that foot fetishists have sex with feet?

It seems our Ira is rather ignorant of these things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
Lep pointed out historical reasons for gay parades. And I have to apploud to the gay movement and congratulate them with success, because even though many of you guys don't like the fact that they don't stay in a closet, and instead are loud and clear with their message, very few people now days question homosexuals' right to exist and have sex with whom they want to. This was not the case 30 - 40 years ago.

As usual Inlove's summary is far more accurate than mine.


Posted by: Jerico

Quote:
heh, funny! All I can say is that guy and your wife can appreciate you in a way that completely escapes me!

Ya Deccie it was funny thats for sure. Hehe
My wife , she thinks shes funny. Heh
Jerry


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Ok for the people that are PRO on this thread. Let me give you a little clue as to why radicals go to these parades and start bashing gays.
Could it be because they get all hot under the collar and lose the ability to have a calm disagreement? Violence tends to be the resort of those who feel they are losing a verbal argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
I have stated that its a case of not being "NATURAL" ...anatomicly biologicaly or ( for the most part ) socialy and religiously.

No, you have tried to link one particular sexual act to a sexual orientation and that linkage is a complete falsity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
BUT NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! THE LIKES OF DECCI AND INLOVE WONT BE HAPPY TILL I SAY ...YEP ITS ALL FINE AND THEY ARE "NORMAL" AND WE SHOULD ALL JOIN IN THE PARADE.

What rubbish. I have never said any such thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Whats next do i have to actually participate in the gay scene to be politicly correct and make you guys happy.

No, you just have to exercise tolerance Ira that's all. Let them have their parade one day a year and if you don't want to watch turn the tv off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
If the politicly correct nazis and the GAYSTAPO left well enough alone you might find people more excepting.

Again, what a load of rot. Should women have accepted not having the vote? Should blacks have accepted slavery and racsim. I find the argument completely shallow. Those who are advantaged by the status quo ALWAYS, WITHOUT QUESTION argue that it should be maintained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
As for Jerry's comments on the promiscurity side of it ...you want to do some research on the SAN FRANSISCO BATHOUSES OF THE 1970'S......a very crucial part in the spread of AIDS in the US. If you think the AIDS problem in Russia is bad now ....wait till this sort of behavior is classified as NORMAL or NATURAL or what ever politicaly correct term you want to put on it.

Ira, you indirectly hit the nail on the head - since the problem IS the combination of promiscuity and unsafe sex. They are the two common themes of HIV in both the Hetro and Homosexual communities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Im having a break from here....i will leave you to convert the raging homophobes....i may see you in a few months?????


Your choice Ira.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna


I will never understand how some people can believe it is normal to be Gay! Can either of you...deccie or Inlove explain this to me???????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????

No, because I am not of that orientation. Can an Englishman explain what it is to be Chinese?
But I strongly reject, as I have before, your grouping of a paedophile being equivalent to a homosexual. A paedophile is a SEXUAL PREDATOR - nothing less - and deserves to be treated as such.


Posted by: Spakoyna

Deccie...I must agree...a pedophile is worse than being gay....BUT! It is a sickness...and I myself consider them both the same...a SICKNESS!

SO! you eluded my question again! Is being Gay normal....as you and Inlove seem support?


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
Deccie...I must agree...a pedophile is worse than being gay....BUT! It is a sickness...and I myself consider them both the same...a SICKNESS!

SO! you eluded my question again! Is being Gay normal....as you and Inlove seem support?


Since we have managed to define a norm or being normal as being in a majority then being gay is as normal as being Amish.


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
Since we have managed to define a norm or being normal as being in a majority then being gay is as normal as being Amish.



I guess being an Amish and a gay at the same time would make it even trickier to classify.


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
SO! you eluded my question again! Is being Gay normal....as you and Inlove seem support?


It is normal in my book. But in yours it seems to be definately not "what nature intended". Which reminds me, nature never inteded our mouths to be used for anything besides eating, drinking and speaking.... Just to add to the topic of "normal" sexual practices.


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellen
As for a dream that reproduction would be some day "independent" process well.... I'm just glad I will not live in those times I prefer old methode - through sex with oposite gender All other methodes are just suggorate but not norm.

Oh, Ellen, I never ever said otherwise. But my understanding of gay men is as limited as my understanding of women. _I_ understand what I see in females and my attraction to them.. to me the female form is just the empitomy of beauty.. the shapes and the curves.. I know many women struggle with the idea of a pregnant woman being beautifull.. but it is - at least to me. But I completely fail to see what they see in us.. I can't say I see much beauty in the male form at all!


Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
Which reminds me, nature never inteded our mouths to be used for anything besides eating, drinking and speaking.... Just to add to the topic of "normal" sexual practices.


I'm sorry but I have to throw this is! Have you ever watched a bull before he does his thing to a cow? Lick,Lick,Lick,Lick,Lick....up he goes and Boom! Job Finished!


Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
Since we have managed to define a norm or being normal as being in a majority then being gay is as normal as being Amish.


This type of broadsweeping analagy could be used to justify anything, good or bad! right or wrong!


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
This type of broadsweeping analagy could be used to justify anything, good or bad! right or wrong!


Yep, now you understand Spakonya. The word norm or normal has absolutely nothing to do with morality or right or wrong.

It is possible for 100% of the population to be wrong at something just as it is possible for 1% of the population to be wrong.


Posted by: Cheburashka

Quote:
Originally Posted by deccie
Nah, Your not far right Cheb. Only about a 6 on the chilli scale.


Damn! OK, it's time to buckle down and get moving to the far right. Where's my compass?


Posted by: deccie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
I'm sorry but I have to throw this is! Have you ever watched a bull before he does his thing to a cow? Lick,Lick,Lick,Lick,Lick....up he goes and Boom! Job Finished!


Erm. No. Despite living in one of the largest beef cattle producing areas of Australia, that hasn't been one of my life's desires to witness.


Posted by: Longfellow

This is a very interesting and controversial topic. I think there is a trap to use words like 'normal' or 'perverted' as metrics to evaluate this.

"Is it normal?'
Normal implies average or standard - homosexual lifestyle is not standard in any country and only in subsets of any community.

I think it is more accurate to ask, "Is it valid?"
To that I would have to say yes - that it is always valid for a person to express feelings of love and attraction to anyone (adult anyone!) that shares similar feelings. There is nothing immoral about creating greater loving environments in the world.

"Is it a perversion or aberrant?"
In the strictest definitions, yes, because it turns away from the accepted orthodox view of what sexual behavior should be (coitus) and occurs in emotional, intellectual and volitional fields of behavior.

"Is it deviant?"
I don't think so... so long as two consenting people participate freely and derive happiness and no laws are broken, they are not violating social rules or norms because it is done in private, not in society!
There is a fundamental difference between what is socially acceptable and what is privately acceptable. And as has been said, most mature people keep their sex life private. Societies norms stop outside the bedroom door.

"Is it a sickness?"
No, sickness assumes measurable discrepency for the norms of health, even in mental illness.
There is no indication of differences on an organic level between hetero- and homo- sexually oriented persons. Differences have been measured that are attributable to behavioral and environmentally chosen differences common among these groups.
For instance, menses of women in heterosexual-only native tribes occur concurrently and with more significant regularity. Regularity is attributed to the pheremonal stimuli responses to the close proximity and regualr introduction of male odors. Regularity was more pronounced despite visiblility to moon phase or other external stimuli of specific regularity. Synchronization is attributed to pheremonal stimuli between women.
In isolated lesbian population, synchronization occurs, but regularity is not as common despite access to visible moon phase.
This was also tested in an controlled experiment wherein a group of heterosexual women was isolated and elsewhere a group of lesbian women were isolated. Both groups had no interaction with men for 8 months. It was found that synchronization occured in both populations, but regualrity was less pronounced in the lesbian population than in the heterosexual. Some relevance was found to moon-phase for synchronicity but was not conclusive given the sampling. Discrepancy of regularity could not be attributed with the known visibility of the moons phases. The conclusion is that the heterosexual women had a residual regularity based on their previous acclimation to the pheremonal influence of men.
Another controlled study of men concluded (after 5 years) that the pronouncement and escalation of effeminate behavior (lisping, hip-sway, facial gesturing) became more exagerated as time increased for those men participating in a social setting of male-homosexual lifestyle. Pronouncement and escalation was also observed in men of this group who held a 'dominant masculine role' in that social environment. Similar changes were not found in either men who were homosexual but did not participate actively in social environments of male-homosexual influence and did not occur in heterosexual men who had no involvement in social settings of male-homosexual influence.
(Hate to say it... but we are what we eat! pun intended!)

"What of Gay Pride Parades?"
Personally, I don't undertand why people feel a need to have a public rally to celebrate what is essentially a private affair.
There are no Straight Pride Parades, no Chubby-Chaser Parades, no 'Chains and Whips and Candlewax on my Nips' Parades. Sex is a celebratory act in itself and between the participants. Is that not enough? Or is the parade some type of arousal behavior that I just am not aware of?
But if it is a matter of feeling unity and acceptable at some level with some people - what's wrong with that? If it's done with dignity? Irish (and non-Irish) do it in New York on St. Patrick's Day, Million Man March does it, Americans celebrating their Thankgiving holiday do it.
To me, I just wonder if the goal now is to be accepted and remarkable and dignified or to shock the senses of some people. If you will parade, you need to cater to the lowest common denominator - children with no understanding of the message, only the displayed behavior. Can't we all be adult for their sake?

"Is it a choice?"
Absolutely. Any one of us could perform such sexual behavior if we wanted to try and found a willing partner. Each of us chooses our sexual orientation because of our personal preferences and what is attractive and available and exciting to us. Bear in mind that most mammals, confined to a male-only group nearly always practice homosexual behavior... this is the answer to the biological imperitive to disseminate... but given a female introduction revert to their "normal" behaviors of attracting that female. Facts are clear, biology has the winning hand. Humans are more complex because we involve ego to our choices and decisions. Still, everyone should br free to find and express their attraction and develop love in whatever manner enriches their own and their partners life.

And I challenge anyone to say that there is something fundamentally wrong with the expression of more love in the world!


Posted by: Felice

[QUOTE=Khashyar]Yes, I would guess that growing