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Why Are So Many Russians Rude?
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Posted by: B82

Hi.
Sorry if the title is a little offensive, but it is just a question I have. I live in a Russian neighborhood because my husband is Russian, and I've noticed that whenever I am at a store or walking down the crowded streets, most Russians (mainly older women) don't say "Excuse me" and expect me to move out of their way without them asking to be excused. They'd even have the audacity to bump into my child's carriage and still expect me to move! I don't like it and my husband doesn't like it either. He agrees with me that most of the Russians here are rude. There was a non-Russian woman behind me in the line and when I asked why can't she say "excuse me" she said, "What do you expect? They're Russians!" I don't think it has anything to do with them being Russian just like my being African-American doesn't mean that I have an excuse to be loud on the bus or loud while walking down the streets (a stereotype of African-Americans). Also, being Russian is not an excuse because my husband is Russian yet he still has the manners to say "Excuse me", "please" and "thank you". I try not to be rude to people and try to do unto them as I would like them to do unto me, but I am getting sick of the rudeness. I have decided that from now on, I'm not moving unless I hear those two magic words.

Posted by: Eryk

There are a couple of interacting factors probably at work here in my opinion:

Russians have greater inhibitions about speaking to complete strangers in the street but much lower inhibitions regarding 'personal space' and physical contact. Going to my local market on a Saturday is like being the the mosh pit at a rock concert ...you bump into people all the time and they into you. No-one is particularly concerned about that and neither apologising nor saying 'excuse me' is expected (unless it is an unusually hard 'bump').

Babushki are at the top of the social 'food chain'. If they want to go somewhere and you are clearly in the way then rules (Russian rules) of social etiquette dictate that you damned well get OUT of their way and you shouldn't need to be 'asked'. A babushka walking down the street should be treated like a "Royal Procession" - all lesser mortals should be clearing a path for her well in advance and if you accidentally find youself obstructing a babushka then YOU apologise to HER

(N.B. Being a mother with a baby carriage buys you nothing on this social scale. If you were pregnant it would be different, but once that is over you go back to being a mere 'commoner'

).

Eryk

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally Posted by B82

I live in a Russian neighborhood

Is it Brighton Beach?

It is populated with... let say... not the best representatives of Russian nation... And, actually, most of them are not "Russians" at all - they are Ukrainian Hebrews!

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by B82

Hi.
Sorry if the title is a little offensive, but it is just a question I have. I live in a Russian neighborhood because my husband is Russian, and I've noticed that whenever I am at a store or walking down the crowded streets, most Russians (mainly older women) don't say "Excuse me" and expect me to move out of their way without them asking to be excused. They'd even have the audacity to bump into my child's carriage and still expect me to move! I don't like it and my husband doesn't like it either. He agrees with me that most of the Russians here are rude. There was a non-Russian woman behind me in the line and when I asked why can't she say "excuse me" she said, "What do you expect? They're Russians!" I don't think it has anything to do with them being Russian just like my being African-American doesn't mean that I have an excuse to be loud on the bus or loud while walking down the streets (a stereotype of African-Americans). Also, being Russian is not an excuse because my husband is Russian yet he still has the manners to say "Excuse me", "please" and "thank you". I try not to be rude to people and try to do unto them as I would like them to do unto me, but I am getting sick of the rudeness. I have decided that from now on, I'm not moving unless I hear those two magic words.

Cannot you move out of this neighborhood? Besides babushkas always demanding their "right of way", many of them are quite racist.

Posted by: martin3030

I have mentioned this many times and its something I noticed from my first trip to Russia.
At home its something from time to time I have reminded my wife about but she does now say "excuse me"

It happens more with strangers rather than with family and friends in Russia.
You can expect it on the Metro as its the same on the underground in the UK but in supermarkets and walking down the street ? no.

I remember being in a hotel breakfast queue in a Moscow hotel and this guy was really getting up my nose with his pushing.
Next morning I got behind him in the queue and did exactly the same to him

Guess what though ?
He didnt bat an eyelid !!

Posted by: zaniac

Babushki - I think I know these, but can someone remind me who they are? Are they the older ladies who are on the street?

When I was in Ukraine, I found people were not as polite, as poeple in UK. It didn't bother me much as I was the foreigner and I just respected the way people were. In a way I was laughing to myself when I was walking down the streets in Kiev - I probably looked weird in doing so

Posted by: martin3030

OF course you know Babooshka....................here we call them Grandma !!

Posted by: zaniac

Lol, thanks

Posted by: Kto_Tam

Personal space is definitely different in Russian culture ... even among "Ukrainian Hebrews".

And babushki are often rude by western standards, but unless they are actually giving you a kukish, chances are they don't consider themselves rude ... but consider YOU to be rude for being in the way! Age is the great trump card in Russian culture ... respect your elders young lady! Imagine that you are in a little row boat and they ... they are the QE II coming into NY Harbor!

Or at least, that is the cultural point of view!

Posted by: martin3030

Not forgetting the lectures on how communism was better !!!

Posted by: B82

Hello again.
Sorry for such a long time of not responding. PrincetonLion, yes, it is Brighton Beach

I thought it was funny about what you said about the babuskas. That's actually how I feel, but I am not a doormat and the red carpet is out for everybody. I do respect the older women, but it doesn't hurt to be respectful as well. So, when I become an older woman, should I just expect everyone to move out of my way? I think that old people tend to be like that in general: like the world is in their hands and they can say any and everything they want to any and everyone. CRAZY!! I still love them, though. Also, I have come to realize that everyone who speaks Russian isn't Russian. I used to be confused about that at first because I used to visit a Russian speaking family but their last names weren't Russian, so I asked my husband about that and he told me that alot of them are Russian-speaking Jews. The same thing goes with our friends: they speak Russian but are a combination of German, Polish, etc. It's interesting.

Posted by: JamesB

Hey.Im not sure if it an eastern European thing but my ex g/f was Lithuanian and never said thank you in situations when we normally would.I had to nag her to do this.

Posted by: martin3030

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesB

Hey.Im not sure if it an eastern European thing but my ex g/f was Lithuanian and never said thank you in situations when we normally would.I had to nag her to do this.

Dunno if its restricted to East Europeans,the kids here today seem to have problems with their manners seems this generation cant be bothered..

Posted by: DocSpooky

Quote:

Originally Posted by B82

The thing is that most non English speaking countries I know have completely different parameters of politeness compared to English speaking countries. Here in the UK and surely in US too people excuse themselfes for simply EVERYthing. It's a standard phrase one spits out when something unexpected has interruped their daily routine. The trouble is because it is being so incredibly often used that in most cases people don't really mean it or better to say haven't thought about it. An apology is meant to be some sort of regret isn't it? It goes together with the standard phrase 'How are you?' Well, nobody is bothered how you are or to the slightest degree interested to get an honest answer. It's the first thing you notice when you come to an English speaking country as a foreigner and it took me 2 years to stop being honest and to learn to just give the standard 'I'm fine thanks' answer. It's only being topped by the Japanese but there's another social reason behind this and in my opionion carried out more honestly.
What gives us the grumpy and rudeless impression of Russians ( and whole Eastern Europe...and Germany...come oooooon be honest!!) is the fact that they are much more careful when and why to apologise or to ask how someone is. At least you know that it's honestly meant if someone confronts you with such a phrase and you know with what your are dealing!
It's not rudeness but a more honest social approach. Bluntness? Maybe but isn't this better than looking into a cramping smiling face that is apologising to you for something while the brain behind this mask is thinking of dinner or football or even about you in a bad way?
Business meetings with Russians are surely the most 'chilled' ones compared to others involving people from other countries but certainly the most open and honest ones. No games no lies. When negotiating with someone from the UK or the States you have to expect a certain amount of nice stories.

That's at least my experience -> no offence!

The matter of going out of the way and bumping into each other and stuff...hmmm well...at least if females are being involved I would guess that there is quite a developed macho behaviour going on. It never happened to me when I was around with Russians (not in Russia - never been there yet!!) but I do remember that there was sometimes some slight disrespect displayed towards women.

Posted by: martin3030

Well I suppose its a different way of looking at it.
I dont know about the west Midlands but I do know in my town people still apologise if they do something wrong which upsets another person they still say please when asking for something,and still say thank you in appreciation.
Of course I refere here to the people who have been brought up to say these words
The old stable have no confusions about that
Its part of everyday conversations and expressions as there is invariably times in everyday daily life when we need to express our maners.

Posted by: DocSpooky

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin3030

Well I suppose its a different way of looking at it.
I dont know about the west Midlands but I do know in my town people still apologise if they do something wrong which upsets another person they still say please when asking for something,and still say thank you in appreciation.
Of course I refere here to the people who have been brought up to say these words
The old stable have no confusions about that
Its part of everyday conversations and expressions as there is invariably times in everyday daily life when we need to express our maners.

Ok, maybe my comment was a little harsh and I have to admit that this is only my way of looking at it because there's always another side of the coin. I cannot say which way is better as I can see benefits in both. Of course if one goes to far with openess and honesty one risks to cross the border to rudeness. So, I would like to make the assumption that maybe higher educated Russians are behaving closer to our western etiquette than the lower educated do? Can I say this? Does anyone know?

Posted by: nmnative

I've been to Saint Petersburg twice. Once last Sept and again in Feb. Both times I spent many, many hours walking along Nevsky Ppkt. (Burrrrrr, it's damn cold in Feb) and riding the metro, trolley busses and city busses. The streets and mass transportation is very crowded. If you were to say excuse me, or I am sorry every time you bumped someone or someone bumped into you, I am sure you would wear out your vocal cords very quickly.... This is just life in Russia. I talked with this with the women I dated while in Russia and they always say the same thing. Life in Russia is difficult an people general keep their thoughts and emotion on check when out in public. I went from thinking it was rude to accepting it as part of Russian life.

Posted by: That1Guy

You're right Doc! These expressions are tossed about without the slightest thought of what they mean. I've noticed that retailers typically use "how ya doin" to ask if you need any help finding something. Tatiana has taken notice of this. She invariably asks me, "Do you know them?" when I speak to strangers. She comments that in Russia, if you ask someone how they are, you'd best be ready to listen to their often times lengthy answer.

I'm sure to her it must be confusing because when I do run across an acquaintence in public, we will exchange a brief greeting - I imagine this would be difficult to distinguish from the short exchanges I have with strangers in public. She has asked me if I ever tire of having to "speak to everyone".

Interesting

Posted by: DocSpooky

Quote:

She invariably asks me, "Do you know them?" when I speak to strangers. She comments that in Russia, if you ask someone how they are, you'd best be ready to listen to their often times lengthy answer.

Hey Guy,
LOL

, yes I can imagine that she's confused by that! Although I don't know her I can see the questionmark on her face when being confronted with such situation. I must admit that I also use this type of greeting more and more often. When I travel back to Germany people often get a little confused when I ask them 'How ya doin, alright?' although I've never met them before. Actually I calmed down on that and accept it as a relaxed way of greeting. The only thing we shoul keep in mind though is that there's people on this globe who don't understand this random 'matieness' and who prefer straight expression of sympathy.

Posted by: That1Guy

It's kinda comical, and I am getting a little kick out of it. Also, yes, I am making more and more room lately for these kinds of small differences in behavior. It is interesting that this is an unexpected benefit of cross-cultural realtionships. I think it adds another dimension of fulfillment - we are both learning about things we never would have if we'd found our mate within our normal environment. Really cool.

Posted by: That1Guy

Also Doc, that question mark is definitely there (on her expression) when this happens.

On a bit of a related subject, my heart goes out to her when people speak to her. First of all, she is not used to strangers speaking to her. Second, she is not too familiar with the language. When people greet her (say, a store clerk just says "Hi, how are you?") she is completely at a loss. She has told me not to wander away too far because she cannot understand people when they speak to her. I am sure this is very stressful for her, and I can see it on her when it happens. I think her difficulty with the language is truly multiplied by the stress of a complete stranger speaking to her, and she kind of panics, and only hears a string of strange noises. If it were me that said the same thing, I think she would easily understand because she would be more relaxed. The poor thing is trying so hard, and I just feel for her when she struggles so much.

Posted by: jsteele

I just recently joined this forum and have been enjoying reading all of the different posts. I am engaged to a guy from Russia, so I find all of the info here really great. I just had to add my two cents here. I find my boyfriend, Oleg, to be much more rude than American men. I must admit that it embarrasses me sometimes...and I'm glad to here that it's a cultural thing. I was beginning to wonder what the problem was. When we go to friend's houses, he sometimes says things that embarrass me. Like the other night, we went to our friend's for dinner. Oleg asked the hostess why she barbequed the salmon rather than cooking it in the oven with hollandaise sauce, since it stayed so much moister when it is cooked in the oven. I thought that was rude at the time, but from what I'm reading here, that is just normal for his culture. That makes me feel better.

Posted by: Pin Boy

hi jsteele,

interesting observation. maybe you can add to this thread:

http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...78432#post78432

pin boy

Posted by: ira156

So many interesting viewpoints. I think most Aussies are well mannered but one thing i hve not noticed in this forum is that i come across rude people all the time. How many times i have waited patiently in a line only to have a woman ( Yes an australian ) barge in front of me and proceed to give me a dirty look as if ive done something wrong. The cultural diffences are very interesting and the posts informing. But i dont think Russians have a monopoly on rudeness.

Posted by: jeffs

Just thought I toss my two cents in here, alot has already been covered. In the last month and a half living in Russia I can defitately confirm that personal space does not exsist. For the first few weeks it really bothered me when my G/f would barge her way to the meat counter to get something (love the post about the supermarket being a mosh pit, sooo true).

People definately don't say hello or how are you to strangers. I still do in certain circumstances. i.e. Two days ago an old man who sits in front of my building. He wears some medals from "The Great Patriotic War" (WW2) on his blazer. We now stumble with my dictionary for 20 or 30 minutes everytime we see eachother.

I also have a theory about why everyone looks so p*ssed all the time. I developed it after my registration fiasco. It seems that in Russia you need an official stamp for almost anything. When I see someone being rude or looking angry I just tell Sveta "he must have been waiting for a stamp all day."

Oh... getting long winded sorry. Lines really don't exsist in Russia in offices. People have a tendency to ask "who's next". It can be quite humorous to watch this process unfold for hours. The person who is last is supposed to speak up.

Oh I do miss home sometimes.

Posted by: elfga

Quote:

Originally Posted by B82

Hmm, do you think it is because these women were from old country Russia that there were not used to seeing an African American women in the Russian area of town? Just a thought.

Posted by: NO_MERCY

[QUOTE=ira156]So many interesting viewpoints. QUOTE]
Here is one on american politeness. Imagine this. One weekday afternoon after work I was shopping in a local Walmart. I was tired, concentrated on my shopping list and thinking of something while I crossed some woman's path, not very close to her, may be about 3 ft. I did not even realized that I was "rude" untill i heard an irritated "Excuuuuussseee meee" behind my back. I mean - in such a tone.. I "woke up' turned around and said - "you are exused". The womans jar fell off and hit the floor :-). She did not expect something like this. While she was regaining her positions, I asked her in the most polite manner - "Could I kindly ask you what I need to apologize for?" She: "You have crossed my path". Me - "So you are telling me I need to apologize for passing 3 ft close to you in a crowded supermarket during a rush hour? Ok, why dont I also apologize for breathing the same air with you?" And I walked off. The woman probably thought I was rude too. I dont care. Personally I think she was rude. If you dont want to be disturbed while shopping - go to expensive places, they wont be crowded so you can shop like a queen. I treat people the way I would like to be treated by them, so if someone disturbs me in a crowded supermarket -I would not think bad about them too. Its like complaining that you are being disturbed in a moscow metro during rush hour! I wonder why nobody feels disturbed when children are creaming their guts out in supermarkets and restaurants and mommies do nothing to stop them? This is far more disturbing for me. What can I do? Well, before you lable something as "rude" think about cultural differences...

Posted by: metaforest

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffs

Just thought I toss my two cents in here, alot has already been covered. In the last month and a half living in Russia I can defitately confirm that personal space does not exsist. For the first few weeks it really bothered me when my G/f would barge her way to the meat counter to get something (love the post about the supermarket being a mosh pit, sooo true).

People definately don't say hello or how are you to strangers. I still do in certain circumstances. i.e. Two days ago an old man who sits in front of my building. He wears some medals from "The Great Patriotic War" (WW2) on his blazer. We now stumble with my dictionary for 20 or 30 minutes everytime we see eachother.

I also have a theory about why everyone looks so p*ssed all the time. I developed it after my registration fiasco. It seems that in Russia you need an official stamp for almost anything. When I see someone being rude or looking angry I just tell Sveta "he must have been waiting for a stamp all day."

Oh... getting long winded sorry. Lines really don't exsist in Russia in offices. People have a tendency to ask "who's next". It can be quite humorous to watch this process unfold for hours. The person who is last is supposed to speak up.

Oh I do miss home sometimes.

Personally I have been enjoying this thread!!! I guess I'm not a typical American... I hate "Howzitgoin" and "wzzup?" and all the other throw-away greetings that Americans use even with their friends!! Others think I am Rude/smartass because I won't play along with the "BS"
"How-z-it-going" gets answered with "All by itself..."
"What's up?" gets answered with "Everything Above Eye Level?"

The personal space issue... never bothered me... I take into account the disposition of the "bump." If there is not intent behind it I just ignore it. I do not know why I started doing this, but I can't remember a time when I didn't.

If I bump someone I will take a quick read on their reaction. If they ignore it so do I. Again I don't know where I picked this stuff up, but I know it's not typical AM behavior.

The one that really got me in Russia was the not looking anyone in the eye.
On the bus sometimes I could tell that I was the subject of considerable attention, but it always came at me from someone who "appeared" to be looking past me.... It took me some time to get used to this more subtle look. With Americans it seems that they'll stare at you when they think you're not paying attention... and then when you catch them.... They look away...
The Russian method seems to me a bit more sophisticated. The result is no one needs to look away, and everyone knows their being watched...

The one time someone DID look me in the eye, on the street, it was clear that the intent was going to harmful!!! If my date's mother had not present in the role of Babooshka I think my date and I would have been in serious trouble.

My date commented on this as well...once we were safely away from the situation, and she noted something I had missed. He had 5 pals standing in the shadows off to one side of where we were walking. I'd been so busy sizing up the "Draw" that I hadn't noticed his posse ready to "sweep" me...

The power of the Bobooshka was evident: This thugs COULD NOT rob us in front of "Grandma" though I could see in his eyes that he very much wished otherwise... The posse stayed put...

=B-)

Posted by: zumanity

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaforest

The power of the Bobooshka was evident=B-)

oh please, leave babooshkas alove, they are just the same in the US
--------------
we call tem babooshka in russian and
old hags in english