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Questions about Gay relationship between American and Russian man
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Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Everyone,

Someone sent me some questions about a gay relationship between an American and Russian man.

I think that this is the first time that I received a question about a Russian-American gay relationship, and so I wanted to post it in the forum for those of you who might be able to give this person some feedback.

I believe in trying to help everyone who has a sincere question, even if that person has different beliefs and makes different choices than I do.

I know that some people may not feel comfortable talking about gay relationships, and I respect and honor that. So, feel free to contribute your thoughts and helpful feedback here if you can offer some helpful thoughts and feel comfortable discussing an American-Russian Gay relationship.

Khashyar

Quote:

Here are the questions that were posed to me:

Dear Khashyar,

I hope you have the time for my questions, and my nature does not offend you because I need help.

I am a gay man in [the U.S.] who has created a great friendship with a younger man in Russia who knows English excellently.

I want to visit him in Russia this summer and we would met in Moscow, and maybe do 7 day tour together with a gay tour agency. It would involve going to places in Moscow, and St. Petersburg, and flying and riding trains. I am naive on these matters and have this image of the police asking for our papers every other hour.

My questions are:
1. Does he have any restrictions traveling inside Russia? Does he need special papers for it?

2. He wants to come to the US but I'm reading that it is very difficult to get a visa for women to travel out of Russia. Is it the same for a man?

3. Should he want to later come to live with me in the US, we cannot get a "marrage" visa because of US laws presently. What would be the best way to approach it from the legal standpoint if you can offer your opinion?

4. Your site is exclusively straight, and I respect that.... Can you suggest any other site that may help me with these kind of questions more directly?

Posted by: Khashyar

On comment that I would like to make is that, from my understanding, Homosexuality is less tolerated in Russia than it is in the U.S. and Europe.

I have heard of Gay men being beaten in Belarus and Russia, so it probably would be wise to be careful about revealing your homosexuality in public.

On the otherhand, there are some openly gay Russian singers.

The police shouldn't ask for your papers every hour, but be prepared to show your passport, visa and your passport registration stamp if a policeman asks you.

I don't think that he should have any restrictions about traveling within Russia, since he is russian himself.

I am not sure how difficult for a Russian man to receive a visa to the U.S. I imagine that it would not be easy, and that his burden of proof that he needs to show to American Immigration that he does not plan on staying in the U.S. would be the same as a woman applying for a visa.

I wonder if an American man lived in a State where marriage between men were legal, if he can apply for a fiance visa? I am not sure if there is anything in the U.S. visa statutes that specifies that a fiance visa can only be applied for between a man and a woman? (I don't want to get into a what I am sure would be a heated discussion about our opinions about gay marriage-- I am simply interested in what others think the law is regarding this? I am sure that if a man ever tried to apply for a fiance visa for another man, that it would get some press).

We haven't really explored these kinds of questions in this forum. I wonder what the experiences are of those who have faced these questions?

If anyone has any helpful feedback for this person, please feel free to post your thoughts here.

Khashyar

Posted by: Jill

I've known of a few gay relationships between AM-RM. It is pretty difficult from what I've seen. I don't think the K-1 would work, but it would be very interesting to see someone try that route. The only such relationship that I know of where the RM came to the US was one where the AM was fairly influential and was able to pull some strings to get him into a university program which in turned sponsored his student visa. RM face all the same restrictions as RW in terms of tourist visas (so a lot would depend on his work, how much money he has, travel history, etc). For long term prospects in the US, likely a work visa of some kind would be the only way. Depending on his skills (and the AM's connections), maybe he could find him some kind of job in the US that would sponsor his visa? As for the AM's travels in Russia--you're right that they should be fairly careful. But I'm sure the RM is already very aware of that and the AM should just follow his cues.

Posted by: novotul

Regrettalby, I'm pretty sure that the Federal so-called Defense of Marriage Act would preclude either an attempt at a K-1 visa or even a K-3 visa (were the pair to get legally married, say, in the Netherlands and then try to move to Massachusetts, where gay couples can legally marry. So, were this couple to attempt to form a family, they would find our federal governmental resources marshalled to prevent its unification.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

1. Does he have any restrictions traveling inside Russia? Does he need special papers for it?

Who is he? If he is talking about the russian guy, then no. If he is talking about himself, then the agency should take care of any needed paperwork (if any needed).

Quote:

2. He wants to come to the US but I'm reading that it is very difficult to get a visa for women to travel out of Russia. Is it the same for a man?

It depends. For a tourist visa, he still needs to prove his non-immigrating intent. It might be easier to do for a man, but not necessarily so.

Quote:

3. Should he want to later come to live with me in the US, we cannot get a "marrage" visa because of US laws presently. What would be the best way to approach it from the legal standpoint if you can offer your opinion?

Your options are only work or student visas.

Quote:

4. Your site is exclusively straight, and I respect that.... Can you suggest any other site that may help me with these kind of questions more directly?

Cannot help with that.

Posted by: martin3030

just done a quick search and came across this
http://www.gaytimes.co.uk/gt/?topic=country&country=800

Gives a little info on the Russian side of things and maybe offers links the the US side.

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

The homosexuality is veru little tolerante in Russia, just thin of the church who was burn down.

From what i can understand, it of course help to be famous, but in general men should not public show their effection.

About visa to USA. Interesting case. I just think of an option: if they want to be together, here in Denmark we have 'sort-of' marriage' for gays but the big question will USA recohnize this? My guess based on news at the TV, yes.

Posted by: martin3030

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jutman

Hi

The homosexuality is veru little tolerante in Russia, just thin of the church who was burn down.

From what i can understand, it of course help to be famous, but in general men should not public show their effection.

About visa to USA. Interesting case. I just think of an option: if they want to be together, here in Denmark we have 'sort-of' marriage' for gays but the big question will USA recohnize this? My guess based on news at the TV, yes.

Not only men Jut

Its very rare to see ANYONE showing affection in public.......or for that matter emotion.
Anyone who has travelled on the Metro will know what I mean.

Last time we was there I was holding my wifes hand and got some looks and stares that were as frosty as Red square in January !!!

Posted by: Jutman

yes, but Russia is changing. From my 1st visit to my last (6th) is there a huge difference, and this in the 'provincial' Russia.

Even my wife was a little surprice when BF/GF kissing or even had 'foreplay' at the streets. Really a flue could'nt be between them. But actually people start to smile, hold in hands. Okay, maybe its still max. 5% but few years ago it was 0.01%.

Posted by: martin3030

Only time Ive seen people smiling is when someone shouts...................................Nalivi

Posted by: Jutman

and in shops, when they understand I am foriegn

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Legal notes
Up until 1993 male homosexuality was illegal in Russia. In 1997 the Criminal code was amended to provide equal treatment for homosexual and heterosexual offences.

Whilst there is no domestic anti-discrimination legislation Russia is signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. In 2005 a discrimination action was brought against Lomonosov Moscow State University who refused to accept a dissertation by a student called �Legal Status of Sexual Minorities�. This case is being considered by the Russian courts.

Gay groups have also been lobbying on the issue of gay partnership laws and the Duma Family committee requested copies of similar legislation from other countries. Attitudes are clearly changing.

In time, the American may need to learn Russian, and go where his heart is.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Defense of Marriage Act
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA is a federal law of the United States passed by Congress and signed by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996. The law provides:

First, it allows each state (or similar political division in the United States) to deny any marriage-like relationship between persons of the same sex which has been recognized in another state.
Second, it explicitly recognizes for purposes of federal law that marriage is "a legal union of one man and one woman as husband and wife" and by stating that spouse "refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife."
Congressional proponents assert authority to enact the law under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the United States Constitution with the purpose to normalize heterosexual marriage on a federal level and permit each state to decide for itself whether to recognize "same-sex unions" if other states did recognize same-sex unions. Forty states have enacted laws denying the recognition of same-sex marriages, which is more than the needed number of states required to amend the United States Constitution. Six states currently have established laws recognizing some form of same-sex unions, and twelve states ban any recognition of same-sex unions including civil unions.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Perhaps I drifted away from the format guidelines. I did not intend to dwell on the marriage debate; I was shocked at the legal facts, and felt compelled to share them. it just seems so ironic.

Posted by: Jutman

Actually here in Denmark, there seems a political majority to give homesexualls the rigth to adopt children, and teh lesbians rigth to get insemination.

Posted by: martin3030

Jut I bought 5 packs of Lurpak tonight..............

Posted by: martin3030

Not to forget......................

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Four hundred years ago America was founded by Europeans fleeing religious persecution.

Could it happen again the other way?

Did we get enough beer for everyone online?

Posted by: martin3030

Well Bob...........theres lots of Prophesies,theres the Bible........and theres the conspiracy theories.
I have read snippets from them all and I dont like what I have read.

One thing is certain...........somethings gotta give in the current climate
Its just around the corner.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

I was also in England last summer and I can not say enough how much I love your country and it's people.

We in America fear most a war is near with radical Muslims, and Bush and Blair are trying to stop it at Iraq, but I fear that may be in vain.

The seperation of church and state in America no longer exist and my country has strayed away from that founding principle. Nobody is building ovens yet, but in some ways we are not far from it.

The few here not brainwashed live quietly in fear of what is to come.

Posted by: martin3030

quite true BOB.

One of the conditions attatched to Winston Churchills request in the last world war was that America be allowed to have its air support here.
Churchill agreed and the US built almost 20 here.
A few still exist and have assisted with raids to Libia and Iraq over recent years.
I actually became good freinds with some American airmen stationed at Greenham Common Nuclear support base in Swindon England.
I actually went on the base and saw the silos that kept the peace for so long.
Eventually the do gooders and anti war people forced closure of the base as well as the cold war supposedly ending.

While England dissmantled its tools of war Russia strengthened theirs and continues to strengthen their neigbours.

I wonder now if our government will ask the US to bring them all back now ?

One thing is for sure in view of our geographical locations I see the continued need for collaberation and am equally sure our alerts are very much in the minds of the people here too.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

How do you put photos in this message box?

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai_Bob

The seperation of church and state in America no longer exist and my country has strayed away from that founding principle. Nobody is building ovens yet, but in some ways we are not far from it.

The few here not brainwashed live quietly in fear of what is to come.

There is no founding principle regarding a separation of church and state. The phrase is not found in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
The only mention of religion is in the Bill of Rights: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

The phrase "separation of church and state" is actually taken from a private letter written by Jefferson to a friend. It has no real meaning within the context of law or anything else. Jefferson didn't write the Constitution or even have a hand in it's writing, so it can't even be used to show "intent" when trying to interpret law.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

http://candst.tripod.com/toc.htm

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Bob,

That's all well and good, but I (and you) do not need a battery of lawyers and associated folks with their own political axe to grind, to understand those simple words.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

In modern parlance we might just say government is prohibited from taking either side in religious issues. When government prohibits someone from the free exercise of religion (prohibiting teachers from wearing a cross for example), they are wrong since they are prohibiting the free exercise of religion. They are also wrong when they use tax money to stick a stone carving of the Ten Commandments in a courthouse.

The first amendment works both ways.

If people have difficulty with that, there is a constitutional remedy. They need to get two thirds of the states to amend the Constitution by doing away with the first amendment.

They know this is impossible. Few people are going to vote away the Bill of Rights, so instead they create "interpretations" based on nonsense like "Separation of Church and State."

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Your facts are accurate and well thought out.

My concern is from my prospective on how much fundamental Christians now dominate our politics and laws. This is a minority position for most western nations already-take for example the issue of same sex unions and how America has responded compared to Canada, England, and the EU. Now there is published evidence that Russia is seriously considering it in the spirit of Human Rights to appear more favorable to the WTO.

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."

-Albert Einstein

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

This is directed to no one in particular.

There is so much in these forums about Russian Marriage Services.

I found this one for men, in the Ukaraine seeking western partners.
I know nothing about them are if they are ligit. It was interesting to
see how they compare to the sites for women.

http://www.geocities.com/russiaboys/

"Gravity cannot be held responsible for people falling in love."

-- Albert Einstein

Posted by: clever1

Bob I just looked at that link out of curiosity, and I found this paragraph.

"You have to realize that this site is not any kind of escort. We are Marriage Agency, that's why we expect only serious Western men who do really need the life-partnership with Russian boys. Because we are responsible for the future of our domestic clients, we do our best to prevent them from the Western maniacs and silly sex-tourists."

IMHO
Maybe the many RW agencies could learn a lot from that paragraph.

John

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

I have noticed that the site also has links on several major gay Russian English sites and I could not believe they are a scam and be allowed to have a link there.

Apparently the ability for gay men to leave the Ukraine on fiance visas to the EU has become a reality now. I know it is a business, but there are some things about them that raised red flags such as their costs profile, and the competitive nature of encourging western men to pay for language lessons or buy expensive gifts on the introduction to improve their chances to win the heart of the one they choose.

Maybe that is normal I don't know.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-Albert Einstein

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Bob, I don't see anything changing soon that would help gays and lesbians in the situation you are in.

I don't know your personal financial situation, but there are places where you can live as a resident foreigner for as long as you like. Costa Rica is one place that comes to mind - neither of you will require a visa and you can own property, a business, etc, with no hindrance.

Costa Rica is a very laid back place. It's very tolerant of different lifestyles, and not at all like the rest of Latin America in that regard.

That's probably not the answer you're looking for, but there it is...

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Some info here is related to posting and threads in other forums. Sorry if it is a bit confusing to anyone.
That is very good information yet it is premature to consider yet. I am quite sure he can do grad studies here first. And this is all info gathering.

Costa Rica is an excellent suggestion. The problem is health care for us.
If we had to pay it, the party would not last long. I could get by going to the states every 3 months. His situation requires he stays in Russia. However the kind of money a cracker code writer can make could be enough. Still that problem is about 6 years away and a number of things can change for us.

"People would get up and leave so they would not have to sit anywhere near me." --Ryan White