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Christopher Columbus - debate at work
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Posted by: zaniac

Hi guys and gals!

There is a debate going on at work regarding this guy. A young Portuguese lady claims she has books at her home which say that Christher Columbus was Portuguese. She says this because at work (on my lunch breaks) I am reading a book on American colonies in the 1500s-1700s, which states he is Italian. She claims she has books which say he is Portuguese and she seems very insistent on this fact.

I have read various search pages on the internet saying about him being Spanish or Italian, but none about him being Portuguese. From my book I am under the impression that he was a Genoese (no sure on spelling, sorry) mariner who was convinced the world was round. The Italians refused to help him prove this theory, but the Spanish did. Providing him with 3 ships, he sailed across the Atlantic and discovered America. I read that he married a Spanish lady, but the above is the only connection between him and the Iberian people.

I thought as there are some Americans on this forum, some of you (or anyone else) might be able to kindly confirm the facts for me.

I know that the Vikings(Nords) were said to be the first Europeans to discover America, via Iceland-Greenland route. But their settlement was not sustained for long. I think the area was named Vinland or something like that. Sorry I'm blabbing on a bit, but I have an interest in learning about colonial America, 'the new world', and the ways the European powers colonised the continent.

Many thanks if you can help

Posted by: Hostile_hostage

He was Italian !!! Guess she should have paid more attention in History classes

)

CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS • Explorer

Also Known As: Cristobal Colon (Spanish) and Cristoforo Colombo (Italian)
Five centuries after his daring voyage to the Americas, Christopher Columbus remains as famous as he might have hoped. He's just not as popular as he might have hoped. Though Columbus is undoubtedly one of history's great mariners, recent years have seen much squabbling over whether he was a good-guy hero who discovered new worlds, or a not-so-nice guy who helped grab the Americas from their native inhabitants. Financed by Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castille, Columbus sailed across the Atlantic in search of a sea passage to India. His mission was twofold: open trade routes for exploitation and bring the word of Jesus Christ to the uninitiated. In 1492 he sailed with three ships (Niña, Pinta and Santa Maria) and made landfall somewhere in the Bahamas. He made three more voyages, always believing that he had reached Asia. Columbus' success opened the door for Spain to conquer the Americas.

Other explorers on Who2 include Marco Polo, Ferdinand Magellan, Roald Amundsen and Jacques Cousteau.

Biography.com
Full basic biography of the famous explorer
Christopher Columbus and the Age of Discovery
Thick database from Millersville University
The Columbus Doors
A student's exploration of the Columbus myth
The Columbus Landfall Page
Just where did he land, anyway?
Birth:
1451
Birthplace:
Genoa, Italy
Death:
20 May 1506
Best Known As:
Discoverer of the New World

See posters of
Christopher Columbus

Copyright © 2005 by Who2, LLC

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Actually, his early history is quite obscure and there are (were) reasons to think he might have been Portuguese or some other nationality.
However, a recent show on the History Channel has put most of that to rest. He obscured his origins because he was from an Italian merchant family of commoners. He presented himself as a nobleman in Spain because he would have gotten nowhere as a commoner.
That's where the mystery originates. Over the years people have looked into family records (for noble families) and never found his name. Of course, they were looking for someone of an entirely different class. He simply didn't show up where his records should have been.
However, there ARE records of a Genoese Columbus surname belonging to the family of a weaver. Among the sons born at the right time is a Christopher and a Diego - Columbus went to Spain with his younger brother Diego.

Sounds right to me.

Posted by: compucowboy

I'm an Archaeology student at university, and I think I can help you here.

You are right, he was Genoese. He tried a number of rulers before he was funded by Ferdinand, most thought he had gone mad. Here is a google search on the subject for you:

http://encarta.msn.com/related_7615...birthplace.html

Also, yes, the vikings did land in Newfoundland about 1001 AD (Lief Erickson). They called the area Vinland after the native grapes there. The local Indians were quite agressive though, so they only lasted a few years. There are tourist visitor spots there on the coast that show what the viking settlements were like then.

If you go back even further, there are some debateable but nonetheless scholarly articles regarding possible Solutrian migration to North America from northern France circa 18,000 years ago. There is remarkable similarity between the spear and atl atl points of the Solutrians and the Clovis traditions here in North America. This is during the Ice Age, and prior to the crossing of the Berring Land Bridge. It is not however widely accepted, and remains an unproven theory.

- Percy.

Posted by: zaniac

Your all stars!!!!

compucowboy - I never knew there were possible links of an earlier French (Solutrian) migraton to North America, before the Berring Land Bridge crossing. Also thanks for the link

Keith In Kodiak - I haven't read much about Christopher Columbus, but from what you have written, I'm thinking of reading up more about his life etc

Hostile_hostage - Thanks for the info, you have basically confirmed what I was thinking as well. She said she would bring the books in soon to 'prove' her argument

Posted by: clever1

http://www.danielnpaul.com/ChristopherColumbus.html

here ya go Zan some fascinating facts about Mr Columbus, and his peers of the time, reminds me of someone living today.

"The news of the riches offered, was like a magnet for other Nations.

Do we really Live and Learn !!!

I'm not so sure

John

Posted by: EasyTarget

Columbus stopped in Portugal for repairs on one of his trips. He asked the Portuguese court for ships. There is no 100% proof that Columbus was Italian but most historians believe he was. When asking the Portuguese court for ships I am sure it would have made sense to say he was Portuguese or had Portuguese relatives or friends. At that point I am sure he might have said anything to get the court to back his exploration work.

Posted by: clever1

Here's anothe one Zan

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl...pher%20Columbus

very difficult to establish where he came from.

John

Posted by: zaniac

Cheers guys for your info and links. I think after I have finished reading my 2 books on colonial America, I will take a more detailed look into the life of Mr Columbus

Many thanks once again

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostile_hostage

Just where did he land, anyway?

Yep, another tidbit that's often argued. Columbus actually discovered the Bahamas on his first trip but nobody is exactly sure of the site of his initial landfall.

Posted by: EasyTarget

Zaniac:
Just curious to know the books on colonial America you are reading are written by American historians or British historians. The viewpoints are usually strikingly different.

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim_FL

Yep, another tidbit that's often argued. Columbus actually discovered the Bahamas on his first trip but nobody is exactly sure of the site of his initial landfall.

He landed first on San Salvador in the Eastern Bahamas. He then went to Hispaniola which is now the Dominican Republic and Haiti.

I spent a number of years chasing drug smugglers around in those parts.

Posted by: compucowboy

This is good advice. To get a good perspective, read books from various sources. You would have a vastly different perspective of an account of slave trading from an african source, than you would a colonial one. Not that they would be easy to find...

Posted by: zaniac

Hi sorry for the late reply. The books I have currently regarding Colonial America are:

a) Colonial America 1565 - 1776 (Third Edition), written by Richard Middleton.

I think Richard Middleton could possibly be from Northern Ireland, the book states that he is a reader of Colonial America at the Queens University in Belfast. Doesn't give any other ideas of where he was born. Checked on Wikpedia, but does not come up with anything.

b) American Colonies - The Settling of North America, written by Alan Taylor.

Alan Taylor was born in Portland, Maine, USA.

I am currently reading the 2nd books, with great interest. Never read a book with 477 pages in it before and that's excluding the bibliography.

To be honest I hardly read books, but since Ukraine I've started reading them. My first was in Kiev when I was reading 'A short history of tractors in Ukrainian, by Marina Lewycka. This book made me laugh and I initially only bought it at Heathrow for the flight to and from Ukraine. In the end I spent a few hours every day reading it. A good one to read on the journey if you travelling to Ukraine.

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Tractor Trivia: What TV show featured a mythical Hoyt-Clagwell Tractor?

Posted by: zaniac

Blue Peter perhaps?

Posted by: joelunchbox

Tractor Trivia.
Greeeeeennnnnn Acres is the place for me!

Now, what was John Deere before it was John Deere??

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Listen to this just to get weirded out: http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/gathemeFrench.asp

I don't know what John Deere was originally - Dear John?

Posted by: compucowboy

Green Acres???

Posted by: EasyTarget

Quote:

Originally Posted by zaniac

I was reading 'A short history of tractors in Ukrainian, by Marina Lewycka. This book made me laugh

I will have to look for this book. It is good that you have a book from a European and American author although the books time lines do not overlap. Look forward to hearing your review of the books.

Posted by: Hostile_hostage

Does anyone realy care where he was born? As he never went anywhere near Russia and he certainly didn't have a Russian bride isn't this a thread for a 'History Forum'?

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostile_hostage

Does anyone realy care where he was born? As he never went anywhere near Russia and he certainly didn't have a Russian bride isn't this a thread for a 'History Forum'?

On the other hand, we're now discussing Oliver Wendell Douglas and his wife Lisa. Lisa was a refugee from Eastern Europe who married an American. Also, their tractor worked every bit as bad as any tractor that ever came from behind the iron curtain...

Posted by: zaniac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hostile_hostage

Does anyone realy care where he was born? As he never went anywhere near Russia and he certainly didn't have a Russian bride isn't this a thread for a 'History Forum'?

H_H

Well if he did he kept it a secret! Anyway I care where he was born as I started the thread. If you are not interested in the thread, simply do click on the link to the thread

Not trying to be funny or anything with you

but just incase you didn't read this is the 'off topic' forum. What you discuss in this forum does not have to be russian related my friend

Posted by: compucowboy

LOL!!!

Posted by: zaniac

Sorry I was meant to say:

If you are not interested in the thread subject, simply do NOT click on the link to the thread.

Thanks

Posted by: zaniac

Well to end it off, the lady who claimed he was Portuguese has agreed with what you guys said. She told me that various people have different opinions and we simply agreed to disagree.

Posted by: Chrismc

I have just started reading this thread, now here is something to stir it up a little more:

Columbus was not the first European to reach the continent. Most historians today acknowledge the fact that Leif Ericson had traveled to North America from Iceland in the 11th century and set up a short-lived colony at L'Anse aux Meadows. There are also many theories of expeditions to the Americas by a variety of peoples throughout time; see Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact, one of the most consistent is the exploration (before 1472) of two, led by João Vaz Corte-Real to Terra Verde (today's Newfoundland). Giovanni Caboto (better known as John Cabot) was first to reach the American mainland (which Columbus did not reach until his third voyage). However, there is one thing that sets off Columbus' first voyage from all of these: less than two decades later, the existence of America was known to the general public throughout Europe. This is likely due to the invention of the printing press. Additionally, although Columbus is credited in Western classical education as the "discoverer of America" , the two continents are named after Amerigo Vespucci, who reached what is now the coast of Brazil in 1501 and whose name was first applied to the map by cartographer Martin Waldseemüller.

Columbus landed in the Bahamas and later explored much of the Caribbean, including the isles of Juana (Cuba) and La Española (Hispaniola), as well as the coasts of Central and South America. He never reached the present-day United States where "Columbus Day" (The second Monday of October, with 12 October being the anniversary of Columbus' landing in the Bahamas) is celebrated as a holiday.

Unlike the voyage of the Icelanders, Columbus' voyages led to a relatively quick, general and lasting recognition of the existence of the New World by the Old World, the Columbian Exchange of species (both those harmful to humans, such as viruses, bacteria, and parasites, and beneficial to humans, such as tomatoes, potatoes, maize, and horses), and the first large-scale colonization of the Americas by Europeans.

Columbus remains a controversial figure. Some – including many Native Americans – view him as responsible, directly or indirectly, for the deaths of tens, if not hundreds, of millions of indigenous peoples, exploitation of the Americas by Europe, and slavery in the West Indies. Others honor him for the massive boost his explorations gave to Western expansion and culture. Many Italian Americans hail Columbus as an icon of their heritage.

It has generally been accepted that he was Genovese, although doubts have persistently been voiced regarding this. His name in Italian is Cristoforo Colombo, in Spanish is Cristóbal Colón, in Catalan it is Cristòfor Colom and in Portuguese Cristóvão Colombo. Columbus is a Latinized form of his surname. The Latin roots of his name can be translated "Christ-bearer, Dove". Columbus' signature reads Xpo ferens ("Bearing Christ").

Columbus claimed governorship of the new territories (by prior agreement with the Spanish monarchs) and made several more journeys across the Atlantic. While regarded by some as an excellent navigator, he was seen by many contemporaries as a poor administrator and was stripped of his governorship in 1500.

Now what do you all think he he

Chris

Posted by: Chrismc

This is said to be CC...but no one knows for sure,

Nobody has ever found an authentic contemporary portrait of Christopher Columbus. Over the years historians have presented many images that reconstruct his appearance from written descriptions. They depict him variously with long or short hair, heavy or thin, bearded or cleanshaven, stern or at ease. The image at the beginning of this article dates from close to Columbus's time, but historians do not know whether the artist painted it from personal knowledge of his appearance. Despite the uncertainty, textbooks in the USA use this image so uniformly that it has become the face of Columbus in popular culture.

Posted by: clever1

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelunchbox

Tractor Trivia.
Greeeeeennnnnn Acres is the place for me!

Now, what was John Deere before it was John Deere??

In 1837, John Deere founded the company that would come to bear his name. Incorporated as Deere & Company in 1868, it has grown from a one-man blacksmith shop into a worldwide corporation.
There ya go.

John

Posted by: clever1

Actually Keith,

on the other hand

four fingers and a thumb .................LMAO

John

Posted by: zaniac

Good post chris!

Some of the points you have mentioned, are also pointed out in the book I am still reading.

Currently I am reading a chapter discussing New England, finding it an interesting book to read.

Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:

Originally Posted by clever1

John....now you know where to go to get your V*#ve made

Chris