Regarding forum guidelines about not posting forum or "competing" website links.. - Russian Ukrainian Belarus Travel Music Woman Dating News

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Regarding forum guidelines about not posting forum or "competing" website links..
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Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Everyone.....

I wanted to open a discussion about a topic that Lena and I have been talking to one another about..... and I wanted to bring the topic out in the open so that we could speak about it with others who participate in this forum....

It is the policy of every other major Russian forum (as well as forums in general) that no business links are placed in messages. (Although helpful non-business links are usually o.k.)

In my experience with other forums, I have also been told by other forum owners that I could NOT post messages about the Russian Meeting Place forum in their forums (i.e., you can't advertise other forums in their forums)....

I think that we have done a pretty good job of keeping advertisers out of our forum (so that we can have a commercial-free environment and not be bothered by posted advertisements), but Lena and I have feel a bit uncomfortable and uncertain about what is the best way to deal with our forum's guidelines as to whether it is o.k. to talk about marriage agencies and other forums in this forum.....

I certainly want an open environment where we can freely discuss the topics that are on our mind, and to have this forum fulfill the needs of all of us who visit and participate here.

At the same time, I also want to do what is best in a practical sense for our forum and website, and to hav guidelines that honors and complements Lena and my efforts to bring new members here and to improve the website and forum so that it continues to serve all of our needs more and more....

There have been a couple times when people have been not happy that I have removed their message advertising a service that they have offered, or when someone wrote a post recommending another Russian discussion forum to another member....

I personally would like to understand what the best way is to handle this?

What is the best way to serve the needs of all of us, allow open, free and comfortable dialogue, as well as do what honors Lena and my efforts and di what is best in a practical sense for the forum?

In one instance, someone who I know and like very much (with good intentions) opened a thread stating that he absolutely loved this forum and was asking if anyone knew of another Russian forums that he could occasionally browse.... Because we had a policy of not advertising other websites, I removed the message and then wrote a message explaining to this member why I deleted the message... But, unfortunately, the fact that I removed his post hurt his feelings....

So... I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but, at the same time, I want to do what's best for everyone involved, including what best respects the time and efforts that Lena and I exert to expand the forum (and website) and make them better and better.....

Perhaps we could all brainstorm about what is the best posting policy for this forum.

I felt good about posting this message so that we can all think about this and come up with the best guidelines and policy.

Khashyar

Posted by: j_c

Hi

I absolutley love this forum as well , I think the people on here are great and all offer help and advice when needed.

I did see the post asking about any other forums that are a source of information , and was looking forward to the responses that people would of sent in.

I check this forum as often as I can and cannot find another to match the content. But, quite often I think there must be other resources out there that would help me as well and would welcome suggestions from other members of the forum as to what sites they visit!

A suggestion would be to develop the links page , as someone finds a site they think would be of interest to people , they could post their links to you in an email with a brief description of why they like the site. You could then decide wether they are valid links or or not.
I think that if you open it up so that anyone can post a link , then it will be open to abuse from people who are just advertising rather than having a genuine wish to help inform others!

What does everybody else think?

John

Posted by: ShermanAtlanta

I think that a person that thinks that links to other boards are bad is a person that does not have confidence in the board that he/she runs. As for me, I visit several other discussion boards and there are none that suit my needs and wants better than this one. This is the only site that I visit 2 or 3 times a day. I would love to share my favorite sites and to see yours also.
Sherman

Posted by: Keith

I am the one who made the original posting that prompted this one. That said, let me address Khashyar’s points indicated below in separate quotation marks.

“…competing website links….”

Hmmm. See the comments that follow.

”It is the policy of every other major Russian forum (as well as forums in general) that no business links are placed in messages.”

You use the words “business links” and I am confused by your use of that and other such phrases in your posting. From my viewpoint as a user interested in “things Russian,” they are not “business links” to me…maybe they are for you. Since joining this forum publicly posted communications and private messages have strongly suggested to me that the RMP was more of a “public service” more it was a “business venture” so much like other forums. This actually attracted me to the RMP because that suggested a fair, balanced and objective forum in which to participate. Specific comments have been made that you are not “doing this” for money. I would encourage you to look at the numerous references throughout your web site stating such. I think you need to truly decide which one it is going to be and craft your policies accordingly. You should not censor in a forum you state is public and open in nature. Public services are just that…free, open and uncensored. However, if you make it clear that the forum is private, moderated and that you reserve the right to refuse or remove postings then I think your actions are fair. I was disturbed there was no posted policy (yeah, I know how boring but some people do read the fine print.) I offer this observation in the spirit of constructive criticism. I think that maybe you are confused as to the purpose of the RMP and that confusion translates into inconsistent and not so clear polices and procedures to us as users. I heard from a number of RMP users privately but I will permit them to make any comments, if any, they might wish to make. I did learn this has occurred before. I respectfully disagree that this is a policy of other major Russian forums because I am a member of several and actively participate in them. I have found references to other useful sites including one to the RMP in other forums. I strongly disagree that “this” is a policy of forums in general. I operate five listservs in the profession in which I work and one has thousands of subscribers. I am moving one such listserv to a discussion board format similar to the RMP software. There are other such forums available and I permit references to them. As a result of my interest in public forums, I visit and observe the activities of them.

”I think that we have done a pretty good job of keeping advertisers out of our forum (so that we can have a commercial-free environment and not be bothered by posted advertisements).”

I am again concerned over the references to “business” policies and procedures like “advertising.” I’m not trying to overanalyze what you’re saying but this is in contrast to what I thought the RMP was…maybe the misunderstanding is solely my own. “Advertiser” is somehow sounding like “offender” to me. Was my posting a solicitation for advertising? That certainly was not my intent. Neither did I regard any possible responses as advertisements for another forum. However, I don’t think for one minute that everything I need to know can be found in the RMP although it is a favorite to which to turn. Forums have their strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I would suggest to you and Lena that you consider carving out a niche for yourselves in the Russian forum community as perhaps a predominantly Belarusian relationships forum. That certainly doesn’t mean you can’t discuss other areas but from someone who has studied business and marketing more than I truly care to reflect on, create uniqueness for your service and decide what your model is going to be! I can appreciate and support your interest from keeping “advertisements” for products and services from being inserted into personal postings but that is not what this is about.

”I certainly want an open environment where we can freely discuss the topics that are on our mind, and to have this forum fulfill the needs of all of us who visit and participate here.”

As I see it, you have at least two models from which to follow:

1. Public in every sense of the word, free open, uncensored
2. Private, moderated and retaining the right to reject/remove postings

Maybe more.

”…I also want to do what is best in a practical sense for our forum and website, and to have guidelines that honors and complements Lena and my efforts to bring new members here and to improve the website and forum so that it continues to serve all of our needs more and more....

What do you mean by “practical sense”? Your missing key is a clearly stated objective to follow. Decide on what that is and move forward accordingly. I don’t think there is any lack of recognition of what a fine job you and Lena do with the RMP as compliment are always being posted.

“There have been a couple times when people have been not happy that I have removed their message advertising a service that they have offered, or when someone wrote a post recommending another Russian discussion forum to another member. I personally would like to understand what the best way is to handle this?”

I can’t seem to get past these competitive business terms that you make repeated reference to…”advertising a service”? Instead what about saying “providing useful information”? If you want users of the RMP to come here and only here, you have unrealistic expectations. Any reasonable person will get a second opinion or seek out additional information. I think you will find most people are not happy to have their participation (through the submission of comments) censored. It’s not comfortable…I kept wondering what was so wrong about that posting and I never did answer the rhetorical question. If however, you’ve made it absolutely clear as to what kind of forum the RMP is and what rights you reserve, then no one can complain. I know that the hosting service, software and your time is not without costs but I thought that was being covered by your business activities in the personals section for interested persons paying for contacting people.

“What is the best way to serve the needs of all of us, allow open, free and comfortable dialogue, as well as do what honors Lena and my efforts and do what is best in a practical sense for the forum?”

Your goals and objectives may be different from users’ interests. You are inferring that RMP forum users are clients…that’s not necessarily so. I’m interested in your forum but not your personals section at the moment because I am already focused on several ladies. However, if I were to want to explore meeting someone again, I would no doubt return to the RMP Personals. So is the forum directly connected to the personals or not? I didn’t think so but perhaps you meant for them to be.

”In one instance, someone who I know and like very much (with good intentions) opened a thread stating that he absolutely loved this forum and was asking if anyone knew of another Russian forums that he could occasionally browse.... Because we had a policy of not advertising other websites, I removed the message and then wrote a message explaining to this member why I deleted the message... But, unfortunately, the fact that I removed his post hurt his feelings....”

This would be me!  No, you did not “hurt my feelings” as I’m long past my feelings being bruised so easily. I wish you had not characterized the situation in that manner but that was your understanding I suppose. It made me a little angry at first then I was disappointed more than anything else. However, I am not angry nor upset now…just concerned. At one point, I felt used in the sense that my contributions were being used to build someone else’s business and that is not what I thought I was initially involved in. I’ve not been sure how to follow up on the matter and avoided posting any further messages. My decision was to let some time pass so as not to say something I might regret later. Again, there appears the word “advertising” and, as I’ve said, that differs from my understanding of “providing information.” I wish you had contacted me first and permitted me to remove the message instead of doing so yourself. However, in my simplest manner of thinking about this incident, I dismissed by saying, it’s your forum and you pay the bills so you can do whatever you want with it!

”I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but, at the same time, I want to do what's best for everyone involved, including what best respects the time and efforts that Lena and I exert to expand the forum (and website) and make them better and better.”

I’m sounding like a broken record but perhaps you should examine and be clear on what your goals and objectives are and communicate those more clearly to users. This user (me) thought he was free to post anything within reason, of course. Heck, I even went to the effort of reeling one user in that was using objectionable language. I was thinking of volunteering to help out in some manner in the RMP as an expression of thanks for what I take from it.

”I felt good about posting this message so that we can all think about this and come up with the best guidelines and policy.”

I hope you take my comments, albeit they are frank and candid, in the positive light intended. I am not attacking anyone or criticizing anything in a hostile manner or at least that was my intent here. I am explaining and hopefully not rationalizing. I stand by my remarks in the original posting that you removed that the RMP is a favorite and I personally owe much to Khashyar and Lena…I regard them as friends and have been looking forward to meeting them in person some day. I have had as many delightful private communications as I have as a “senior member” in the forum. I feel that in time I will travel to Mogilev and I hope the both of them can provide me some advice and guidance as I’m on the same path they’ve traveled no so long ago.

I also agree with Sherman...I think that someone who is afraid of other boards lacks a sense of self-confidence in what they are doing.

As for Aqua's comments, we're talking about different things here and the confusion stems from the use of the business terms as I've probably beat to death in the above response.

I don't see how a separate links page offers any solutions to the issue.

Thank you,

Respectfully,

Keith

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Everyone...

I just returned home, and am going to read and reply to your messages.

I posted my message in a spirit of openess and mutual respect and cooperation, and so I appreciate the thoughts and comments that you posted.

I very much believe in open and respectful communication...

I am going to read all of your comments and reply to your thoughts.

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi John... Thanks for your thoughts and feedback...

Actually, our website does have links page that has several links on it (a person can just click on the "links" button from the home page)....

Also... I think it is wonderful that our forum members post helpful website links for others.... I agree that it is very helpful for others to share which calling card companies and websites have been helpful, or which travel agencies or airlines, etc...

The kind of links that I don't feel comfortable with are posted links in our forum about other forums as well as other personals.

Why do I feel uncomfortable about posted links in the forum about other Russian forums and other personals? Because I feel that posting links to other forums and personals works against Lena's and my efforts in building our website.

So, certainly, my fundamental and main intention in creating and maintaining this website and forum is to help other people and provide a service that fulfills other's needs as fully as possible. And I feel that it is reasonable not to work contrary to our efforts at maintaining our forum and personals by providing links and referrals to other forums and personals. I would like to build and increase membership in our community, and not have the forum a source of taking members away from our forum. I hope that others can understand this

It is certainly true that at least a couple of other forums feel the same way, because I posted what I thought were appropriate messages in two other Russian forums about the Russian Meeting Place (when it first was created), the both of the Russian forum owners deleted my messages-- one of the forum owners also deleted my forum membership without any email or explanation, and the other forum owner wrote me an angry letter threating to take action to close down my forum if I posted a message about our forum again. These are two of the other most respected Russian forums on the internet, and this is how they responded to what I thought was a very polite message that I wrote in their forums asking if there was anyone interested in joining a forum that specifically dealt with Russian-Western marriages and committed relationships (when our forum focused on marriages and committed relationships).....

So... I very much felt that to not want other references to other forums was definitely the norm in my personal experience with other prominent Russian forums out there.

(By the way, I am going to answer each person who posted in this thread in seperate emails)...

Now... I can see the perspective that a forum or "business" that refers people to other "competitors" or similar businesses is thinking of the well-being and needs of the people who use the business or forum, and that this approach is a service in itself.

I can also understand the "free market" approach that believes that people will come back and choose the website that they enjoy most and that best serves their needs. (And, based upon people's responses and feedback in posts, people really value and receive a lot from The Russian Meeting Place forum).

But, at what point or under what conditions does a website's webmaster "manage" a forum so that it keeps the website or forum strong and healthy?

We could have a completely free and open approach in regards to posting about other websites and forums, and even about marriage agencies. I do feel that visitors can receive a lot of positive benefit from talking about their experiences with different marriage agencies and personals. Maybe it would even be helpful to have a section about "scams"?

At the same time, I want to respect Lena and my efforts, and I don't want Lena nor I to feel that we are working very hard to manage and bring in new members to our forums, while certain posts referring people to other forums (or personals) are sending people away from the website that we work hard to maintain, build, and to provide the best service for everyone involved?

So, again, I want to provide the very best service possible to people (this is the very fundamental reason that I participate and manage the forums), and at the same time, respect my efforts and ask others not to post messages that undermine my efforts.

Perhaps it might be like PBS (Public Television) allowing advertisements on its programs about ABC, CBS or NBC... Or... like a free newspaper including advertisements on its pages for the Los Angeles Times or other newspapers.

But, again, I want this forum and website to serve the needs of EVERYONE involved in the best and greatest way possible, including the needs of every participant here, as well as the needs of Lena and me.

I am going to read the other responses in this thread and write more comments in individual posts...

Again, I appreciate everyone's comments-- I thought it was best to discuss this topic openly among ourselves (and with respect, of course...)

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

Thanks for your feedback, Tasha...

I responded to some of your comments above....

We actually do have a links page (as well as a "Top 100 Russian Website" page), both of which include descriptions and links to other Personals services as well as other Russian businesses and websites...

I am still considering the benefit of having a part of the forum where people can discuss different Russian marriage agencies and perhaps even forums, so that people can receive feedback based upon the personal experiences of others. Lena is not keen on the idea of having the forum be a place to refer other people to other Personals, because, as I think is understandable, she feels that this undermines her very hard work to create and build The Russian Meeting Place's Personals...

But, I honestly do not know of a place where people can talk openly about marriage agencies or other personal's services (in a non commercial atmosphere), and so this might be fulfilling a need by doing this. However, I want to respect Lena's efforts and don't want her to feel that this would be undermining all of her many hours that she puts into the personals every day.

Thanks again for your comments, Tasha...

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Sherman...

Thanks for your kind words...

As I hope I clarified in my long post, I agree that posting helpful links in this forum is a good and helpful practice....

I was trying to decide the best policy regarding posting links to other forums and Russian Personals...

One thing that I believe that I could have done differently in retrospect regarding Keith's post was to ask him to please remove his own post. I did not expect that he would be upset about me removing the post and then immediately emailing him regarding why I deleted the post. But, in the case of a member who has participated in the forum and who we know, I see that it is better to send them an email asking them to please remove their post. I think that this would have lessened the chances of Keith being upset about this...

But, again, the reason, Sherman, that I am questioning the policy of allowing posts in our forum about other forums is because I felt that it undermined all of Lena and my hard efforts in creating and maintaining this forum and website, and I want to respect both of our efforts as well as to provide the greatest and best help for the greatest number of people (and visitors)...

Thanks for your feedback, Sherman....

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Keith...

Again, I began this thread because I respect and appreciate and see the value of respectful openness....

I was going to email you to let you know about this thread (without revealing your name unless you wanted to reveal yourself as the poster of the "forum message"), but you saw the thread before I could do so...

I am going to read your message now and respond to it....

Keith, I am going to include some of the quotes from your post, and then post my thoughts about them....

"You use the words “business links” and I am confused by your use of that and other such phrases in your posting. From my viewpoint as a user interested in “things Russian,” they are not “business links” to me…maybe they are for you. Since joining this forum publicly posted communications and private messages have strongly suggested to me that the RMP was more of a “public service” more it was a “business venture” so much like other forums. This actually attracted me to the RMP because that suggested a fair, balanced and objective forum in which to participate. Specific comments have been made that you are not “doing this” for money. I would encourage you to look at the numerous references throughout your web site stating such. I think you need to truly decide which one it is going to be and craft your policies accordingly..."

Keith.... my fundamental motivation for creating and participating in and maintaining this forum is to provide a service to people, and to serve visitors as well as to provide a place where I can learn by communicating about Russia and Russian topics.... I am not in this for the money

I think that this forum is a fair and balanced place, and actually, this is why we have not wanted commercial advertising so that there are no commercial interests in this forum. In every other Russian forum that I am aware of, there are advertisements predominently displayed. In our forum pages, there are NO business or advertising banners on the forum pages. The only "banner" that might be considered an advertisement is on the free personals pages in the forum (this "banner" leads to our photo personals)... In fact, I REMOVED the image link to the RMP photo personals in the singles conversations sections in the forum because I personally felt uncomfortable that this felt like an advertisement in a part of the forum that I felt should be non-commercial. I have kept advertising and any purely commercial posts out of the forum because I felt that this was best and created the best non-commercial atmosphere for everyone....

"You should not censor in a forum you state is public and open in nature. Public services are just that…free, open and uncensored. However, if you make it clear that the forum is private, moderated and that you reserve the right to refuse or remove postings then I think your actions are fair. I was disturbed there was no posted policy (yeah, I know how boring but some people do read the fine print.) I offer this observation in the spirit of constructive criticism."

I can understand that you like to see guidelines as to what should and should not be posted in the forum. Actually, we do have forum guidelines posted in a forum section entitled: "Forum Guidelines (please read before posting...) "

Within the forum guidelines post, it states: "5) Please do not advertise any services or other websites on this forum without the permission of the administrator." But, perhaps there could have been a way for me to make this more clear....

Yes, Keith, I agree that I do not want to censor anyone. But even in free services, there are guidelines that are created with the intention of creating the best serve for people. For example, if you go to a homeless shelter, there are certain guidelines for guests to follow which ensures the best operation for that shelter (I did some research on homeless shelter in the past for a book that I was writing

) In a more appropriate example... in free newspapers (a forum has similarities to a free newspaper or other free media outlet), there certainly are guidelines and there are editors who make decisions as to what would best serve the needs of the readers as well as of the newspaper. There are guidelines for letters to the editor, and editors review and edit letters and newspaper articles. I suppose I see this forum as a place for people to meet, as well as a communications medium similar to a newspaper or a public television station.... Other non-profit organizations also have guidelines (like 12 Step programs or Alcoholics Anonymous-- I have friends who have attended both). Structure and organizational guidelines help an organization, even a non-profit one, run smoothly and remain healthy. Guidelines help websites and forums maintain their visions and mission statements. In putting all of the time and energy and heart into this website and forum, I want to have policies that help support this website (as a kind of non-profit organization) as well as serve the needs of our members in the best and greatest possible way. I truly want to help people, and my ONLY reward in maintaining this website is that I feel that I am making a positive contribution in helping people. If I did not feel that I were truly providing a service to help people, I would stop working on this website and forum and put even more energy into my documentary films (which require a lot of attention from me as well).

Many forums have policies against flaming others because they feel that it is not good for the environment of the forum. I wanted to keep this forum commercial and advertisement free, as well as to respect the existance of the forum (and Lena and my efforts in maintaining it) by not promoting other forums within our forums.

Keith... I do appreciate that you are offering what you believe is constructive criticism

I appreciate this intention...

"I think that maybe you are confused as to the purpose of the RMP and that confusion translates into inconsistent and not so clear polices and procedures to us as users."

Again, the forums guidelines are posted and I thought that the policies and guidelines of the RMP forums were clear, but perhaps I can clarify them more.

By the way, the guidelines for the forum are posted here: http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...hp?threadid=138

"I heard from a number of RMP users privately but I will permit them to make any comments, if any, they might wish to make. I did learn this has occurred before. I respectfully disagree that this is a policy of other major Russian forums because I am a member of several and actively participate in them. I have found references to other useful sites including one to the RMP in other forums. I strongly disagree that “this” is a policy of forums in general. I operate five listservs in the profession in which I work and one has thousands of subscribers. I am moving one such listserv to a discussion board format similar to the RMP software. There are other such forums available and I permit references to them. As a result of my interest in public forums, I visit and observe the activities of them."

I respect that you have experienced something differently in your experience with forums... From my personal experience, forum owners at two other two major Russian forums did not want me to post references to the RMP forums in their forums, even though I did so in a way that I thought was respectful and did not compromise their forums. (I have spoken more about this specifically in my thread response to j.c.).... Again, I think that these forums should welcome links to other websites and businesses, as long as they both serve the needs and interests of our forum participants, as well as do not undermine Lena and my hard work and efforts at maintaining these forums and websites

I have enjoyed, visited, and appreciated the many links that have been posted in these forums by our friends and visitors... Of course we want to continue to offer these links and suggestions to others...

But, it has been my personal experience that at least 2 of the other major Russian forums did not allow links to the RMP forum, because they did not want to promote other forums in their forums. As I remember, other forums also have written policies against posting commercial website links...

"Was my posting a solicitation for advertising? That certainly was not my intent..."

I know you weren't "advertising" other forums in your post... I know that you are not some kind of secret agent for other websites

Again, I think that it is o.k. and appropriate for our forum to have a link posting policy so that links are not posted that work against Lena and my efforts. Even non-profit corporations enact policies and guidelines that keep them in business. (In my spare time

I actually run an unrelated non-profit foundation)...

"However, I don’t think for one minute that everything I need to know can be found in the RMP although it is a favorite to which to turn. Forums have their strengths and weaknesses. "

Yes... of course every website, forum and business has its strengths and less strong aspects.... Of course no business or website is perfect. But, it does seem like we are fulfilling a lot of people's needs with our website, forum, and personal correspondences. (We often receive very positive comments and letters of appreciation..) And I am always striving to improve our website and forum so that it better serves all of our personal and information needs...

"As I see it, you have at least two models from which to follow:

1. Public in every sense of the word, free open, uncensored
2. Private, moderated and retaining the right to reject/remove postings.."

Keith... from my understanding, every forum that I participate in has moderators and administators... If a forum is completely unmoderated, then the atmosphere turns into something like the Wild West where some users fire flames like Jesse James

I have seen this in many other forums, which make it an uncomfortable place to visit and post... Our forum has a nice, comfortable, intelligent and helpful atmosphere... And again, every social place has guidelines and rules, and the forum has posted its policies visible on its main page...

"I think you will find most people are not happy to have their participation (through the submission of comments) censored. It’s not comfortable…I kept wondering what was so wrong about that posting and I never did answer the rhetorical question. If however, you’ve made it absolutely clear as to what kind of forum the RMP is and what rights you reserve, then no one can complain. I know that the hosting service, software and your time is not without costs but I thought that was being covered by your business activities in the personals section for interested persons paying for contacting people."

Keith, I certainly feel that the forum guidelines are fairly clear when it states "5) Please do not advertise any services or other websites on this forum without the permission of the administrator."

Again, I am sorry that you feel upset or angry about me removing your post and then emailing you to inform you of this... Looking back, I believe that it would have been more helpful to email you and ask you to remove the post yourself (while explaining the reasons why).

I think that what I might do is to explain the #5 form guideline a bit more clearly so that people understand that we also specifically ask members not to post links or posts about other Russian forums or Russian Personals, and explain the reasons why (that we feel that this undermines our efforts in maintaining and creating this website)... I can also state that we do have a links page where there are links of other Russian personals and other websites, and that people can email their links to us to be considered to be placed on the links page....

At the same time, I want to consider whether it would serve the Greatest Good if we created a forum section (or a section in some other part of the website like in the Russian Service and Product Reviews), where people can post, rate and review other Russian Personals and even forums..... Perhaps this would be a good way for the forum to remain pure, as well as provide a place for people to post and read information about Personals and forums. I want to reflect upon this and welcome everyone's feedback regadarding this...

You asked about what was wrong about your posting? Nothing was wrong with it...

But, I don't feel that it supports our forum to directly advertise or promote other forums within our forum. As I alluded to earlier, it seems to me that it is like other non-profit corporations going to your non-profit corporation and promoting themselves to visitors who come to you because of advertisements that you posted in the newspaper and through your word-of-mouth reputation. In another less related example, it's like going to a blood bank and telling possible blood donors to give blood at another blood bank

From a forum administrator's point of view, it does not feel that it supports my efforts for a posted message to direct people to other forums.... I am hoping that my point of view is understandable and clear regardarding this

In our forums, we talk about EVERY subject regarding Russia under the sun. We even discuss and recommend many other businesses and websites, EXCEPT for other forums or Russian personals. I am thinking that this is a very small limitation compared to the other limitless beneficial information that people can receive here....

"Your goals and objectives may be different from users’ interests. You are inferring that RMP forum users are clients…that’s not necessarily so. I’m interested in your forum but not your personals section at the moment because I am already focused on several ladies. However, if I were to want to explore meeting someone again, I would no doubt return to the RMP Personals. So is the forum directly connected to the personals or not? I didn’t think so but perhaps you meant for them to be. "

Keith... I think that you are misunderstanding me. I am not at all referring to forum users as clients.... I have always called them "users" and "visitors".... But, as the person who personally maintains the forum, I work to promote the forum and bring in new members so that it can remain a rich and continuously growing and stimulating environment. If you are inferring that I see forum users as potential paid clients in our personals or in any other way, then I want to make clear to you that are mistaken in your assumption... But, I do want to expand the forum and bring more and more people here. This is why I promote (and advertise) it on search engines and any other place possible while still maintaining our integrity....

"...No, you did not “hurt my feelings” as I’m long past my feelings being bruised so easily. I wish you had not characterized the situation in that manner but that was your understanding I suppose. It made me a little angry at first then I was disappointed more than anything else. However, I am not angry nor upset now…just concerned. At one point, I felt used in the sense that my contributions were being used to build someone else’s business and that is not what I thought I was initially involved in."

Keith... I don't understand?? You think (or thought at one point) that I am using your contributions (you mean posted forum messages?) to boost my business??? Again... This forum is to help people and to provide a place for people to gather and help and support one another... I receive pleasure and satisfaction in helping others... I make my living in other ways, and there is no way that this forum or website could bring me the income to support myself.

My life's mission is in other things, but this website and forum are things that I enjoy, and are vehicles and resources that I believe are helping other people (as well as providing a place for me to gain more understanding about my Russian-Western relationship)...

"I’ve not been sure how to follow up on the matter and avoided posting any further messages. My decision was to let some time pass so as not to say something I might regret later. Again, there appears the word “advertising” and, as I’ve said, that differs from my understanding of “providing information.”

I don't use the word "advertising" in the sense of "selling" something.... I have NEVER tried to sell anything in our forums.... I used "advertising our forums" in the sense of promoting and strengthening the forum and bringing new members here so that we can have more members to share ideas with. Again, I don't make one penny from this forum, and have never solicited any service or product in the forum, and want to respect our forum's commercial-free nature.

"I wish you had contacted me first and permitted me to remove the message instead of doing so yourself. However, in my simplest manner of thinking about this incident, I dismissed by saying, it’s your forum and you pay the bills so you can do whatever you want with it!"

I agree with you regarding that it would have been better to contact you first and to ask you to remove your post. that is something that I have learned through all of this... There have been cases in our forum, however, when someone has made a very inflammatory comment, or has made inappropriate and disrespectful sexual comments to one of our women. In those cases, I have removed the posts immediately.

At the time when you posted your message asking for recommendations for other forums, I felt that it was appropriate to remove your post (and then email you about it immediately to explain the reason why), because we did have a posted guideline about asking the administrators about posting a website or business link before doing so.

But, since you and I (and you and Lena) have had lots of good correspondences, and because Lena has corresponded with you many many times and has helped you with your questions, I really did not think that you would be upset about deleting your message (especially since I immediately followed up by sending you an email explaining why the post was deleted, and writing you that I hoped you understood my reasons.)

"I’m sounding like a broken record but perhaps you should examine and be clear on what your goals and objectives are and communicate those more clearly to users. This user (me) thought he was free to post anything within reason, of course. Heck, I even went to the effort of reeling one user in that was using objectionable language. I was thinking of volunteering to help out in some manner in the RMP as an expression of thanks for what I take from it."

Again... we did have posted policies about this

But, if I were to approach this situation again, I would send an email first asking a user to remove the post.

"I stand by my remarks in the original posting that you removed that the RMP is a favorite and I personally owe much to Khashyar and Lena…I regard them as friends and have been looking forward to meeting them in person some day. I have had as many delightful private communications as I have as a “senior member” in the forum. I feel that in time I will travel to Mogilev and I hope the both of them can provide me some advice and guidance as I’m on the same path they’ve traveled no so long ago."

Thanks, Keith...

I hope that by us all communicating about this, that we all can learn something.... and make the forum a better place....

I think that I would like to revise the guidelines more, and perhaps make them clearer.

If anyone has any comments or thoughs regarding this issue, and as to what would policy or guidelines would make our forum the very best and most beneficial place for everyone (including for Lena and I

), then please feel free to post your comments.

Sincerely and respectfully,

Khashyar

Posted by: Keith

Khashyar:

I don't think we've achieved a "meeting of the minds" on this issue.

As for your stated guidelines, "5) Please do not advertise any services or other websites on this forum without the permission of the administrator," it did not honestly occur to me that this statement applied to the nature of my posting. I understood this statement, as I think most might, to be a prohibition against advertising commercial services which is certainly understandable. For example, suppose I post some information about a product or service I offer and I'm pushing it on your site...strictly a commerical purpose. My posting was more of a query about other forums where I could get additional information and I didn't feel that was improper to ask about at all. There is, at least in my mind, a major difference and I just can't draw the same parallels as you do. So perhaps the best we can do is to agree to disagree. These business terms you use really seem to cloud my understanding or mislead me as a reader.

In the kindest way I know how to say it, I would like to suggest that maybe you are a bit paranoid and insecure about references to other forums in the RMP. Sherman clearly stated this and others have said the same thing to me privately. I didn't want to state that in my initial response but I completely agree. Khashyar, comments to effect that I posted do not threaten your forum. If you think somehow other sites will not be discovered and visted then you are mistaken. If anything, here is a golden opportunity for you to set your forum apart from others...if they, as you say, prohibit such discussions then you should maybe consider embracing them and use that as a "competitive advantage." As many including myself have said, this a very good forum but I honestly think you are going to drive people away with the position you are taking on this matter. One cannot as you state truly "talk about anything" in the RMP...there are certain subjects that are off-limits and I don't think that will generally set well with most. This is my personal opinion only. I truly don't want to see that happen but I suspect it will.

I wish you and Lena all the best in your endeavors.

Respectfully,

Keith

Posted by: Khashyar

Yes, Keith, we do not agree on this issue and that is o.k. because it is reasonable that people do not agree on some issues...

As I have written to you privately and in this thread, I have appreciated your contributions to this forum, and was hoping that you could understand my perspective as to why I would not want posted messages in this forum sending people to other forums. I know that you did not have any ill-intentions. I hoped that you could understand that Lena and I feel that messages referring people to other forums works against our efforts and energies to build and expand this forum...

People are absolutely free to respectfully talk about anything they want (as can be seen by the many different subjects talked about in the forum), and we just ask to honor Lena's and my efforts by not refering people to other forums.

I began this thread so that everyone could have an opportunity to openly and respectfully share their thoughts about this issue, and hopefully create more understanding and help further develop the forum guidelines so that they would best serve everyone involved, would be beneficial for the forum, and that also respects Lena's and my efforts.

I want to continue this thread in a positive spirit, and I would like us to discuss this issue in a positive spirit.

Lena and I appreciate the emails, private messages and forum messages that we receive from people who have received a lot of benefit from this forum and website, and I personally am happy and feel satisfaction with our intention to provide a helpful service to others. I am grateful for this and appreciate everyone's messages and contributions here...

I am going to now direct my energy to responding to people's questions and sharing more helpful information in the forum...

Thanks again, Keith, for the thoughts that you have shared in this forum...

It's o.k. that we do not agree on this issue, and I want to move on in a positive way, and wish to maintain the positive, beneficial spirit in this forum.

Khashyar

Posted by: rtking

I don't understand this discussion. Khashyar and Lena have stated the rules for participation in this forum. They have not charged anyone any money for using this forum and I know that Khashyar has spent considerable money and time setting-up and maintaining this forum for everyone's enjoyment. I don't think it's much to ask to abide by his rules.

Now conversely, I understand that there may be some decisions and rules that people don't like. It's much easier to PM or e-mail Khashyar and make your points than to air this "dirty laundry" in the forum for all to see.

I know that people would like to post links, but Khashyar is not adverse to people posting the name of an agency or their experiences. He just doesn't want to make it a policy to allow business links so that spammers and various "guests" come to make a post that happens to be an advertisement for something. It's easier to enforce the rules for all than to selectively enforce the rules.

I know Khashyar was genuinely interested in getting other people's feedback on whether or not people wanted to see links in the posts. That's why he made this a topic. Those of you who have met Khashyar and Lena know that they are some of the fairest, peaceful, and kind-hearted people you'll ever meet. All you had to do was to send Khashyar an email stating your points and why you think links should be allowed. Khashyar's opening message was one that encouraged feedback. That's all he sought.

I personally feel that it's unfortunate that this had to be posted for all to see. I think a PM to Khashyar would have led to a more efficient and amicable resolution. As participants on this forum, I think we all have a duty to help be part of the solution.

Bob K.

Posted by: Khashyar

I do appreciate everyone sharing their genuine thoughts respectfully....

Again, I would like everyone to understand that posting helpful links in the forum is o.k....

I definitely do not want to create or spread any negativity, because I want this forum to be a very positive and helpful experience for everyone...

Thanks for all of your feedback, guys.....

If anyone has any helpful constructive comments regarding the forum's guidelines, then please feel free to post them here, or send me a private message or email if you would like...

I would like that we spend most of our time being involved in the many interesting and fun topics about Russia and Russian-Western relationships that are taking place in the forum.

But thank you everyone for your comments and feedback...

And thanks for keeping this thread positive and in a kind, helpful spirit,

Khashyar

Posted by: Keith

Quote:

Originally posted by rtking
I don't understand this discussion.

Khashyar and Lena have stated the rules for participation in this forum...I don't think it's much to ask to abide by his rules.

It's much easier to PM or e-mail Khashyar and make your points than to air this "dirty laundry" in the forum for all to see.

I know that people would like to post links, but Khashyar is not adverse to people posting the name of an agency or their experiences. He just doesn't want to make it a policy to allow business links so that spammers and various "guests" come to make a post that happens to be an advertisement for something. It's easier to enforce the rules for all than to selectively enforce the rules.

Those of you who have met Khashyar and Lena know that they are some of the fairest, peaceful, and kind-hearted people you'll ever meet. All you had to do was to send Khashyar an email stating your points and why you think links should be allowed. Khashyar's opening message was one that encouraged feedback. That's all he sought.

I personally feel that it's unfortunate that this had to be posted for all to see. I think a PM to Khashyar would have led to a more efficient and amicable resolution.

Bob K.

Bob, with all due respect, I'm convinced you don't know what this discussion is about.

One major point is that the "rules" were and are not clear!

Who was "airing dirty laundry"? Khashyar invited discussion on this matter! I don't think he was nor do I hope he feels I was "airing dirty laundry." I fully respect his position and I think he does mine as well...we have simply agreed to disagree. Can debate and discussion not take place? Do you ever watch our government (Congress) at work? This is nothing more than frank and candid discussion on a topic.

I for one did not request links in the original posting so I don't know where this notion has slipped in to the discussion. I simply asked about other forums I might turn to for information. That's it! Bob, you say Khashyar is agreeable to such information being presented and the whole point of this discussion is that he doesn't. I don't think you understand the discussion.

Respectfully,

Keith

Posted by: Khashyar

I think that a discussion forum is like a small microcosm of the world and other communities...

What's wonderful about this model is that we can create any kind of community that we would like, establish any vision and tone for our internet communities, and then attract and communicate with like-minded people so that everyone benefits.

I personally will guide this forum to be the kind of friendly, dynamic, information/ knowledge-rich, and postiive community that I would like to see in other communities in the world....

So, I am going to guide us to do that...

A wonderful aspect of the internet is that people are able to create the kind of communities that they envision....

Khashyar