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Russians-Americans-Europeans
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Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

If you ask a Russian if he is more like a European or an American, he'll instantly reply that he's more European. I find this so odd, because they are soooo American in so many ways - Or, Americans are sooo Russian in so many ways.
Either way, I find it so weird that they don't see this, and I wonder why. Are they just saturated with the anti-American European and Russian media?

I'm not talking politics here. I'm talking about the every day outlook, habits and personalities of Russians. World power-politics are something far beyond the scope of the individual in either country. I can understand everyone's resentment at America's power in the world today. I don't agree with it, we just happened to be all that was left when the USSR broke up and China decided to sell electronics and underwear instead of playing politics on the world stage.

I've known many Russians over the years. And I've visited Russia; the Far East back in the bad old days, and more recently Western Russia. And I've been to Europe many times - all over Europe. More, I live in a place that attracts scads of European tourists as well as a lot of Russian factory and (occasionally) military vessels who put into our port here.

I've met enough people to (I think) make some general assumptions about the differences and similarities between these cultures.
And it's very easy to see how well Russians and Americans get along. It's very easy to see how similar in outlook they (we) are. When a Russian vessel is in port, they instantly mix with the locals and you see them out fishing, riding 4-wheelers, drinking beer, etc, with their new American friends.

Europeans don't mix. They have no interest (apparently) in seeing what life in Alaska is like.
Here, people wave at you (even though you are a stranger) as they pass by in a car. They greet you on the street. They ask if you need assistance if you look lost or confused.
And this seems to upset Europeans. They look at you with suspicion and generally decline any help.
Do the same with a Russian and you find yourself having a beer.

I once managed a gun store. Europeans would walk in just to be shocked - as if selling guns has the same social cachet as selling child pornography.
When Russians came in, it was to oooh and aaahhh and ask questions about the guns.

Russians have a touch of that same frontier mentality (Siberia, the Far East) as Americans - and the same sense of manifest destiny that made them a world power at the same time the US rose. They are confident, outgoing and down-to-earth - much more like Americans than Europeans!

I didn't mean to run on so long. These anecdotes just kept popping into my head

I AM very curious about why Russians perceive themselves in the way they do. Why do they think they are in any way "European?" Why would they think a positive American outlook on life is a negative thing?

Keith in Kodiak

Posted by: Ade

Hi Keith,

Glad you shared your experience here....but for me, and everybody I know from the UK and Europe, we'd be more than happy to get help from (and interact with) a local abroad...so maybe you've met some atypical Europeans.

As for guns, the reality is that most Europeans wouldn't be as shocked as you report (if any would be) but then we also can't see any reason why honest, everyday people need guns either.

As for Russians feeling European, perhaps that's because they're in Europe...and I'd also think that the sheer size of Russia dictates a lot of differing attitudes across the country.

Interestingly, your comment about Americans being down-to-earth is probably the one that would most likely bring a wry grin to a European face....experience with real Americans may say otherwise, but stereotypes still come as west-coast shallow, NY brash, generalised arrogance, and centre southern states as uneducated good-ole-boy redneck moonshiners. Wrong of course, but that's still the image given out at times.

I'm also a little saddened by your first paragraph....the media in the Uk are most decidely not anti-American.

But thanks for a thought-provoking post.

Regards,

Ade

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Actually Ade,

I don't think of the Brits, or the Irish for that matter, as being "European" except in a geographic way.
What I was trying to define was a certain continental European outlook on the world. And surely, you know what I'm talking about! I still recall opposition to the Chunnel from many Brit's on the grounds they didn't want to be connected to France!

People from your part of the world don't fall into that category. And neither do people from any part of the former British empire; Aussies, New Zealanders, etc.

And I don't dislike the French or Germans, etc, on any personal level. I'm just saying they don't mix as well with Americans, as do some other peoples.

I don't want to get in a gun debate here, but why shouldn't "honest, everyday people" own guns? This is Alaska after all and I get a good percentage of my protein needs from wild animals. And if somebody wants to rob me, kill me or rape my wife, I can turn his head into something resembling a spilled bowl of spaghetti instead of begging for mercy.

I assure you, I had a good many Europeans in my store looking around as if it was a chamber of horrors. And when you explain about hunting they get even more excited - whack a cow, fine. Whack a caribou, Sacre' Bleu!

Keith in Kodiak

Posted by: Nastya

WOW!! First of all thanks for a great overview of Russian-European-American character traits!!! I mean I wish I was reading this forum when I was at College needing info for my term paper

Your post would really help back then!!!! Honestly!!

Actually, I always thought that Russians mix well, coz I do for sure

As for Russians opinion of them being rather more like European than American... I think, it comes mostly from Russians lack of understanding of American culture and people... There are certain negative cliche features in regard to Americans imposed by the media or Russian immigrants returning from the US who didn't make it and feel like they need to blame their failure on Americans. Those are the character traits that Russians don't want to identify themselves with. I think...

Plus the whole Iraq thing is no good PR campagn for the US. Perhaps, that would explain why Russians refuse to see their common grounds with Americans. Yeah, and I'm such an amateur in politics, so you should forget what I just said!! LOL

As for guns and other similar matters - I worked with Europeans a few times, and I find them a bit snobbish on such issues... I don't know why, perhaps its no fault of theirs anyway and they've just been brought up this way.. Who knows!!

Posted by: buzzment

keith a fascinating subject uve brought up.im no expert on what russians regard themselves more in common with as i am a complete newbie to russian culture etc.but i think ade has hit the spot when he says russia is in and close to Europe etc.as regards the european outlook on the world its not as easy as that.Sure Europe is a continent and with the EU getting bigger all the time its working towards a united states of Europe etc.but at the moment its far from being a "country" as such.the individual countries still have their own identities,cultures,traits,languages etc and ways of looking at things.in general i think the individual countries are getting more and more similar with eachother.but at the same time the actual joe soap of that particular country can be a lot diff in character compared to a diff country of Europe etc.i think the language barrier has an awful lot to do with it,there are so many languages in Europe.also what is the definition of European?Europe has sort of always had a dual personality,yes im european,but im Irish also.i think in political and official terms etc im European,but culturally and individualy im Irish,i think this is true for every country in Europe.
as regards the guns i dont really have a strong opinion on it.in Ireland the cops dont carry guns except specialised detective units for emergencies!but guns nonetheless are used in robberies quite frequently and there are crimes and deaths involving guns sometimes and its getting more frequent so in the futere who knows the cops mite have them.

Posted by: swindoom

I think Alaskan Americans must be different to non-alaskans as when I lived in LA, Chicago and New York if you went around waving at strangers you probably be shot at.

Posted by: Ade

Hi Keith,

Yes, I do know what you mean with regard to UK/continental European relationships....and you're bang on about the Chunnel

As for guns, I guess I was taking a bit of an idealist view, in that we shouldn't need guns (in general civilisation that is - rural 'need' hunting excepted)...but I have absolutely nothing against the use of extreme force to protect oneself or family. It's more the 'gun as accessory' idea I don't like. Tool yes, statement of any sort, no.

But the continentals amongst my friends and acquaintances all seem friendly and eager to mix....but maybe that's because they're here working/studying, not on holiday....and so with a different mindset.

Regards,

Ade

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Swin, No sorry, even in Chicago people won't shoot you for waving hello. But thanks for showing an example of that negative stereotyping of Americans that I was talking about

Ade, No, in a perfect world the average, honest person wouldn't need a gun for defense. And, if we ever reach such a state I'll begin to comprehend laws banning them. Until then, we are only disarming those who obey the law and leaving all the guns in the hands of those who won't - criminals!

Nastya, Yes, I think you see what I'm talking about!

Buzz, Yeah, I know people in Europe have their national characteristics and customs and that they differ from each other in some ways. Yet, these countries have more similarities than differences.

Let's try this - We've all been to Russia, or will go shortly

And let's leave Moscow and St. Pete out of the equation since they are international cities that don't really give a good example of Russian character.

Let those of you who have been out to the "real" Russia - the smaller towns and cities of this huge nation - share some anecdotes.

For myself, I'll talk about an evening I spent Kiosk-Hopping in Izhevsk. On hot summer evenings (and cold winter evenings for all I know), men are in the habit of wandering from one Kiosk to another to have a cool beer and a chat with whoever else stops in. It's too hot to sit indoors. In Izhevsk, many of these kiosk's have benches in front, and it is these that collect the most people. It's a pleasant custom. When they find you are a foreigner, they are very polite, curious and friendly. They don't meet many foreigners outside the Golden Ring. It was nice. I met some people, made some friends. They bought me beers. I bought them beers. We shared cigarettes, and chatted as best we could in smatterings of English, Russian, German and Spanish... A surprising amount of older Russians speak some Spanish they picked up in Cuba in the "good old days". Most Americans speak more Spanish than they realize, especially if you've spent some time in the West. So anyway, we got along pretty well.

It was a lot like a small-town Irish or British pub. You get the same thing - they hear your accent and will generally inquire, politely, about where you're from and how you like their town. Pretty soon you're among friends.

And you'd get something similar in a small US town - no, not in LA, NY, Miami, etc!

On another occasion, in Moscow of all places, we (Kat and I) badly needed to use a phone. The only phones around used some sort of card. We asked a guy in a newstand next to the phones if he sold these cards, and he told us no, and that he didn't know anyone else nearby who sold them. A young guy standing nearby overheard us, asked us if it was a local call and then handed over his cell. Afterwards we chatted with him and found out he was a student from Ekaterinburg.
That would NEVER happen in continental Europe, even in a small town! And to be honest it wouldn't happen in NY or LA either - but it could certainly happen anywhere else in the US or Canada, or Mexico for that matter.

Now, contrast that with something we used to call "Tapas-Hopping" in Southern Spain. All of the little bodegas serve various snacks (Tapas) such as smoked or salted ham or seafoods in the evening and it's customary to "hop" from one to another to find the best snacks and have a glass of wine in each.
Yet, in Spain, even in the small Southern towns, you don't meet anybody. They are reserved and keep to themselves. If you try to break the ice they withdraw from you. I've had the same experience all over Europe.

I'm not trying to draw a distinction between "right" and "wrong" behavior, rather I'm just trying to point out the differences and similarities between various cultures.

Keith in Kodiak

Posted by: buzzment

keith i get what ur sayin yea.yes europeans have similarites and differences to eachother,its a complex continent what with the diff histories of each country that goes back hundreds of years etc.i think the big cities of every country in gen are less hospitable compared to the small towns and villages etc.i think this is true for most parts of the world.i mean certainly in Ireland the folk in the country are much friendlier and hospitable than us city dwellers in Dublin.thats not to say everyone in the cities are non hospitable(ME!) and helpfull etc.i think in gen the pace of life in the cities is far more faster and stressfull so the knock on effect sometimes brings about no hospitality etc.but sure im sure u know this anyhow.at the end of the day as time goes by the world we live in is getting smaller and smaller with the advent of cheaper air travel,countries signing declarations of human rights,countries trading more with eachother,internet use,cell fones,satelite tv.sure there are countries laggin behind canada,the US, western europe,japan etc but they are slowly but surely catching up technology wise anyhow.the more people have access to diff countries and cultures thru the medium of tv and internet the more the barriers will become less and less.then the more people travel and break down the barriers it can only get better.having said all of that there is a long way to go!!!!!

Posted by: Texas Proud

I will disagree slightly on you thoughts...

When I lived in London, you could tell the Americans very easily as they were the loud obnoxious ones... yes, they would usually talk to anyone that would talk to them, but it usually was not polite to disturb someone on the tube...

I found that people in other countries were willing to help if you asked. One of the things I think it a dividing factor is how many people are stuffed in a city.. and I mean CLOSE... My time in NY was horrible at times when walking the sidewalk.. .people would run into you and not say a word..

So, my take on why they say they are more European is the living conditions. Tha average size house in Europe is about 1,000 sq. ft.... the average size house for someone living in poverty here in the U.S. is about 1,000 sq. ft... Lots of people do not have cars over there... ride the subway, bus, tram etc. etc... they live in an apartment block with 1,000 neighbors...

Where HERE, we strive for our own little piece of land in the burbs... 2,000 or more sq. ft... one, two, three... and sometimes even FIVE cars in the driveway... only 1 or 2% of people ride mass transit..

More maybe later... enough for now..

Posted by: bingism

Interesting... I'll try not to draw the attention of anyone that's going to give me a bashing, but I have been travelling the last 10-years through business and pleasure and have interacted with most of the World's nations.

Some observations if I may (all based on my own personal experience & perceptions, so don't hit me too hard):

- there are two main kinds of people... xenophobes and xenophiles...
The xenophobes stay in their communities and believe all the hype they see (& read if they can) about the big bad world. The xenophiles are more objective about their personal cultures and their countries, get on planes, travel wherever they can and take time to look past the myth.

- there is a greater percentage of xenophobes in the US than anywhere else (I could throw a bunch of stats in about % of US citizens with passports, etc, but that would be pointless).

- when a xenophile travels, they tend to try and adapt best they can to the culture around them... xenophobes try to encourage those around them to change.... hence the "loud obnoxious American tourists" in London, proclaiming how great the US and asking "why do the English name their towns after places in America"...

- you can break down a xenophobe's barrier by making an effort (a xenophile will more likely not have a barrier to break)... example: go to the non-tourist bits of France, try speaking to a waiter in English. Most likely you'll get a flurry of French thrown in your face and a series of Gallic assurances that he speaks no English at all and that he would rather eat his right arm than serve you!! Now try making the effort to humbly tell him in your "finest" French that you speak very bad French and does he, by any chance O great waiter, speak a little English? Within a few minutes you're likely to be suuplied with a beautiful glass of wine and a little bread, heard his life story and been invited to meet his sister.

There's a fine line between being arrogant and proud of one's culture & country. I've found everyone has something to teach each other. When it comes to the FSU countries, I've found that whilst they are strong, proud cultures, they are willing to try and change just to "fit in". Why? Because for so long they've been told how great it is to be European or American and that being FSU is bad bad bad!!!

With regards the similarities that we all see in people, it's probably because we're all pretty much the same under out veneers. Different perspective and belief structures, but human none the less...

If I've made a reasonable point or two, then I'm glad.... if not, then I'm going to get back to my cup of tea!

Posted by: bingism

PS. just to throw in a little balance.... there are a good number of xenophobes in the UK too! You'll generally find them drinking beer and eating fish and chips in Spain or procrastinating about how we (the Brits) are the rightful rulers of the World and how everything is so shallow away from the "Island". We've all met them....

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingism

- there is a greater percentage of xenophobes in the US than anywhere else (I could throw a bunch of stats in about % of US citizens with passports, etc, but that would be pointless).

No bingism... it is relevant... but lacks a little context. 3 nations comprise the whole of North America. The distances between North America and the other continents of the globe are substantial. I believe in Europe you have... what... several nations... within the same span of kilometers as America's width at a middle latitude from its west-to-east coast. The cost for Americans to leave North America is substantially more than it is for a European to move around the continent. Why is that? Is travel there subsidized... or is it the absence of liability-negligence litigation that keeps insurance and legal expenses low enough to discount ticket prices?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingism

- when a xenophile travels, they tend to try and adapt best they can to the culture around them... xenophobes try to encourage those around them to change.... hence the "loud obnoxious American tourists" in London, proclaiming how great the US and asking "why do the English name their towns after places in America"...

Americans are much more engaging with strangers than Euros. Additionally, Americans see a class system that is so strange to us, certainly as "foreign" as the country we visit and the language we hear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingism

There's a fine line between being arrogant and proud of one's culture & country. I've found everyone has something to teach each other. When it comes to the FSU countries, I've found that whilst they are strong, proud cultures, they are willing to try and change just to "fit in". Why? Because for so long they've been told how great it is to be European or American and that being FSU is bad bad bad!!!

I begin with the characterization of 'arrogant and proud'. I'll agree, but ask you to balance that statement with--- there is also a fine line between a competitive attitude and envy & jealousy of another's culture and country. I will focus on France & Germany specifically. This is one American who finds it so tedious to hear the 'arrogrant & proud' criticism as a general dig at the U-S, which is NOT as frequent from the English-Irish-Scots-Welsh. I am sorry France & Germany can not generate the economic growth that the US-Isles does, I am sorry that F & G efforts to build a US-E fail. That is... like... not America's problem. And I get sick and tired of America being tied to a whipping post for the problems generated in these 2 countries. So bingism... the 'arrogant & proud' chant doesn't generate much sympathy/empathy on this side of the Atlantic. In fact... it gets REALLY OLD!

Why must Americans feel guilty and ashamed of our achievements?

What I don't understand is the mental gymnastics some Euros will perform to indulge the spirit of self-loathing and pessimism. I mean... really... it can be astonishing at times.

Your points on language are well-taken. I mangle Russian frequently... but hell man... I am trying to be a polite guest. When I am tired and hungry... I may forgo the standard torture of trying to mangle a language again for convenience. Hunger and fatigue may also prompt me to decline to meet someone's sister... not arrogance.

Posted by: RickGI

I understand what Keith is saying, I have been in the military for over 12 years and spent seven of those years stationed in one area or another of Europe and Eastern Europe. At current I am in a multi nataional deployment involving most of NATO and prospective NATO members. Here is my opinion of this matter. France and to a lesser degree Germany are the biggest engine to the anti-american feelings in most of Europe. I know some are going to say it is George Bush but remember I have served under 3 different administrations and the rhetoric is the same the only difference is the volume. Generally while our politics are eyed with suspicion by most of Europe. They generally like the American people. Only in France and Germany have I encountered discrimination because of my nationality. The Baltic States may not agree with our policies but they generally like the Americans they have met. Scandinavians seem less suspicious of our intentions but do not always agree with us on policy, they seem to have enough sophistication to seperate disagreeing from outright hatred. Most East European countries are very friendly and curious about americans and we tend to have good times with these countries. The Med. Countries (Greece, Italy, Spain) all also are basically friendly to us here.
The Germans respect our military but waste no opportunity to tell me how terrible the US is and that we should be more like them. The French, when they can be bother to speak with us are nothing but rude. This statement excludes the Foriegn Legion of course they are professional and by the way mostly eastern european at the moment. To give you an example from just this deployment, we had to go assist patrol their area while they intergrated there new arrivals. They would not let us stay with them on the French post there, instead the housed us with the Moroccon's. To us this was great because the Morrocons were very good hosts the last time we were there. However the French would not feed our troops while there even though all NATO troops eat at our dining facilities. We just sign a roster and the host Nation sends visiting Nation a bill for number served. We had to eat on the economy until the Danes heard about it and Invited us to dine with them. The Danes said the French were that way to every one so don't be to upset.
I think that generally the US relations with Europe is ok, there are policy differences but there always has been. The French and Germans have just taken it to the extreme is all. They feel it is not enough to disagree they have to preach hatred as well. While on a visit to Germany for a school, there were a couple of resteraunts that would not let me enter for the stated reason, we do not serve Americans. There is no place in the US that this would happen. There hasn't been since the 1950's civil rights movement. There may be places that is wouldn't be a good idea to go to for safety reasons but none that would say you can't come in here because you are from such and such country.
Be careful of grouping all of Europe together, they are not all the same. most of the discord you see is the far left in europe that makes the left in the US look like the Republican party. Continental Europe is coming to terms that their social systems are not working, (riots in Paris) and they are going to have to adapt to a system like the UK has, which is a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. The Scandinavians have a sucessful social system as well but it is more geared to their social structure and is not easily exported.
The US and Europe will always have disagreements, but usually get along well. Recently however, there seems to be a trend with a couple of countries who think they should dominate politics in Europe becasue they are more fit too than the rest of Europe. However, I believe with the expasion of the EU, these two countries will have their voices diminished somewhat.
With the exception of the two countries I have mentioned, I have been treated well by people from Europe. There are of course differences in cities and rural areas but no more so than one would encounter in the US. I think as a soldier we are probably loader and more patriotic than the average tourist, so I think I would see the worst of reactions from the places I have been.
These are just my opinions formed from visiting with, living with and working with Europeans over the years. Some people may disagree, and that is ok as long as you don't feel you have to hate me for my beliefs

Posted by: jpierce55

Let me state this. First of all I don't like to generalize but I am going to for sake of argument.

I work with many foreign people. West Africans; most want to go home but have no problem with American people they just don't like the expenses. Mexicans, Vietnames, FSU, Philippines, other Asians; no problems with anything I have heard from any of them.

I have also worked with MANY Germans/French. Interestingly enough they are in the U.S. They complain how Americans are arrogant and how we Americans come and try to changer their nations when we visit. At the same time these individuals show double the arrogance and are trying to change the lifestyles of the Americans that work at these companies. Why? They think the French/German way is better. The French openly admitt the hatred they have for the PEOPLE of our country and how the like home much better. For some reason they seem offended when Americans (and some Africans) say then you should go home, we don't want you here.

You see how Americans view European visiters the same way Europeans do about us visiting?

Posted by: bingism

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpierce55

You see how Americans view European visiters the same way Europeans do about us visiting?

Interesting point well made... it's certainly made me review my own thoughts on the matter!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradIL

I begin with the characterization of 'arrogant and proud'. I'll agree, but ask you to balance that statement

Brad, my English let me down here... I had meant that there is a difference between being "arrogant" and being "proud". I certaintly do not think that anyone should have to apologise or feel ashamed of their own country. Personally I try to accept that there are things about each country that are neither good nor bad, just different (although I will admit it is hard sometimes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradIL

So bingism... the 'arrogant & proud' chant doesn't generate much sympathy/empathy on this side of the Atlantic. In fact... it gets REALLY OLD!

I wasn't aware that this was something regularly levelled at Americans and I hadn't meant to direct it purely towards you guys. There are plenty of arrogant SOB's on our little island too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickGI

Generally while our politics are eyed with suspicion by most of Europe. They generally like the American people. Only in France and Germany have I encountered discrimination because of my nationality.

I'm not sure it's suspicion so much, rather a tinge of dismay. The ones that keep coming up are the Kyoto-type environmental policies. It's quite hard to get one's head around any administration that defiantly refuses to address this issue citing the "risk to the economy" that curbing green-house emissions could have. It gets even worse when GWB starts publicly questioning that the greenhouse effect even exists! I guess we're all hoping that American citizens will take matters into their own hands on this one....

I think that you might have experienced higher discrimination because (I assume) you've been posted near or in large US bases. I spent a fair bit of time in BFPO bases in Germany in Dortmund and Bielefeld and did not feel welcome at all. I've never experienced this at any other time in Germany. The reason that was given is that inadvertently, the presence of these big military bases causes a lot of resentment in the surrounding locale. I've even seen this in the UK around the USAF bases.

All in all quite an intriguing thread, with a lot of interesting (if opposing) views.

Bing

Posted by: skinsfan

This is interesting to me.....i will simply speak of my personal thoughts..granted, i have only limited experience abroad .....when i traveled to another country, i knew i was the visitor..i was excited to learn all i could...unfortunately my experience in France was very poor...i found the people quite rude, and i was surprised how uncomfortable i was....i will never go again....by contrast in the Ukraine and Russia, i was treated very well, and i loved the experience... the people in the FSU were anxious to understand about the USA, and i was anxious to learn all i could about the country i was visiting. My friend from England came for a 10 day visit last march. he wanted to see what he called real America....i took him into rural North Carolina..to the local restaurants, etc....my English friend was taken back with the positive reaction he recieved by regular people (blue collar and farmers) we went to a restaurant that served the local pork barbacue....the owner came out to my English friend and thanked him and his country for the support and brotherhood they gave to the USA. He said that no matter what problems that happened, that our two countries and Austrailia always stand together....my friend from England was almost moved to tears...it is difficult to write about their exchange in this conversation, but it was really quite emotional. when my friend returned to England, he recieved some interesting questions about his visit...one question was asked....are the people in the USA angry with Britian about Britians involvement in the war....his friends were quite surprised to hear that Americans considered the British and Austrailians like extended family......... ..take a poll in the USA from regular folks, and you would be amazed at the affection we have for Britian and Austrailia.........France, now that is a completely different story...Germany is a mystery to many.....

Posted by: clever1

"I spent a fair bit of time in BFPO bases in Germany in Dortmund and Bielefeld"

Hey Bing not another camp 10 inmate..................lol

John
ex 26 field regiment

Posted by: bingism

John,
Spent 3-years being "courted" for 6 weeks a year by some of the inmates at 1HQ Reg in Bielefeld, with the odd trip to Dortmund for various "doctrinations". Luckily for me (I think), the Sneaky Beakies couldn't get my autograph on the 22yr dotted line...
Bing

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

This is all very interesting. And frankly, in hindsight, it could have been, umm, ugly!

So, thanks to all for taking this is in the spirit it is intended.

I would add that what some would characterize as "arrogance" is usually just "confidence." Americans don't think they are better than Europeans, and if they did that would certainly be arrogant.
If anything, Americans are often a little intimidated by Europe - the history, culture, language, customs, etc.
Yet we, because of our culture and upbringing, express our confidence in ways that might seem a bit rude or forward to many Europeans.

Most of us don't have any problem with walking up to a stranger and saying "Hi! The sign up there says the train on this track should go to London, yet the sign on the train says 'Manchester.' What's up with that?"

A European faced with the same situation in the US would be more likely to look for an official of some kind, and failing that would not be nearly as direct in his approach to a stranger.

The American isn't arrogant, and the European isn't shy. It's just a difference in how two different cultures handle things. They'll both get on the right train, one way or the other.

And even the American confidence (if that's the correct word) is not rooted in anything personal (I'm a wildly successful plumbing accessories salesman who is deserving of respect...).
No, it's just that in our culture it's not considered rude or arrogant to whistle across the bar to get the waitress' attention to bring another beer (Hell, when we leave we'll tip the gal generously for responding quickly). And it's not considered arrogant or rude to do a lot of the things that Europeans don't like. We're just being ourselves.

And you know, it cuts both ways. One of the things that drives Americans batty about Brits is the constant use of the word "F#^K" This word is just not used in mixed company in most of the US. Yet, you'll be sitting in a nice restaurant and some well-dressed, matronly British woman at the table next to you will be commenting "Well, the F#^king shrimp are excellent, but the f#^king sauce is too sharp, and I wonder if they'll be bringing another f#^king cup of coffee this way?"

And that is with our British cousins with whom we have much more in common than with the "continentals."

And now, back to the subject I am most interested in - how do the Russians fit in? I still say they are far more like Americans, than Europeans.

Keith in Kodiak

Posted by: bingism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith In Kodiak

And now, back to the subject I am most interested in - how do the Russians fit in? I still say they are far more like Americans, than Europeans.

Thanks for bringing us full circle... lol... all I can say is that I've actually found Russian people (male & female) to be a fairly "Russian"!!!! Neither American, nor European.... different yet lovely; apart from the men I've met through my businesss and that's a different thread altogether.... Bing

Posted by: clever1

Hey Bing did one of those doctrination trips include "Linien Strasse" :-)

John

Posted by: bingism

I have no idea what you mean...lol (although one time I did have to visit the doc's a few weeks after getting home)
Bing

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

The ones that keep coming up are the Kyoto-type environmental policies. It's quite hard to get one's head around any administration that defiantly refuses to address this issue citing the "risk to the economy" that curbing green-house emissions could have.

Bingism,

I don't think you understand how Kyoto works.

China and India are actually the worst polluters nowadays as far as heavy industry goes. And China and India are exempt from the rules of Kyoto! In effect, Kyoto penalizes Western industry (which has made great strides in reducing pollution) in favor of developing nations which can ignore pollution initiatives.
In other words, if implimented it tends to shift industry to the third world and INCREASES greenhouse gas emissions!
This is a fact. Look it up yourself - the 3rd world is exempt from the Kyoto protocols.
The US is never going to sign it, ever! And that being the case, European governments can wring their politically correct hands and blame the Yanks. In fact though, if they thought it was actually going to be implemented they'd bail out quickly enough. It's all political posturing.

And this global warming thing... Umm, look up something called the Medieval Climate Optimum. For 250 years, from roughly 900 to 1250 the earth warmed dramatically. It was so warm that the Vikings were raising grain and sheep in Greenland.
Human and animal populations exploded all over the world. Deserts got rain, sub arctic regions began to support crops, etc.
This had nothing to do with industry.

Following this, we had something called the Little Ice Age which lasted until about 1850. It was colder for hundreds of years, much colder than now.

Now, since 1850 we've got a climate that falls in between those two extremes.

And these climate variations are just those that are easily measured since they fall inside of our current written knowledge base. But when they look at tree rings, etc, they see that these wide climate fluctuations go back as far as we can measure.

And human activity had nothing to do with it. If we are indeed entering another warming period, why would anyone think humans have anything do with this one? And why would a warm period be a bad thing anyway? Some low lying coastal areas may be lost, but the Sahara and the American Southwest will turn into grasslands again. Arctic regions will benefit immensely.

This has all happened before, as recently as in medieval times.

If you think human activity is responsible then by all means support Kyoto. Moving industry to the worst polluters will certainly hasten events.

Posted by: J60

Hi Keith,

we could all argue this untill the cows came home and still not agree on what needs to be done, and who by and what for, but i do agree with some points on both side's,
i do think george W is more concerned with the affect on US industry, but at the same time most of the figures for pollution for the states is 7 to 10 yrs old and out of date,
as you say india and china have over that same period increased the amount of fossil fuel they are burning to 4 times what they burnt 10 yrs ago plus the amount of oil they are importing has also gone up by 3 or 4 times what they consumed then,

i also agree that unless global warming has a runaway effect we will adapt, i've read an article recently saying what the weather would be like here in britain in 2080, and i think i posted some on the aussie website in a thread there, but it basicly came down to a couple of nights of frost a year in january, being able to grow tropcal fruit and having nice warm summers,lasting 8 months, roses as winter flowers and tropical plants for bedding out in the summer,

so all i can add is that i was born 50 yrs to soon,

john

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Well, I suppose it's open to interpretation whether global warming is happening, or not. Whether it would be good, or not. And whether this is caused by humanity, or not.

But what isn't open to interpretation is the Kyoto Accords. These clearly penalize the nations who pollute the least, in favor of the nations who pollute the most.
In effect, it's about shifting economic benefits to the 3rd world, not about global warming.
If it was about global warming, the accords would penalize China and India (and Brazil, and what have you) and reward the US and Western Europe who pollute far less to produce an equal amount of products.

Keith in Kodiak

Posted by: bingism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith In Kodiak

If it was about global warming, the accords would penalize China and India (and Brazil, and what have you) and reward the US and Western Europe who pollute far less to produce an equal amount of products.

Hence I said "Kyoto-type" environmental policies... I wouldn't really include the UK in the group of countries rubbing their PC hands together - we've not exactly been uncontroversial in the past few years...lol

What I was intimating is that it is very hard to accept the perceived attitude towards "green" issues. The Kyoto Accord to one side (which I do understand by the way), it's only been in the past few months that GWB has asked people to "consider" trying to find ways to reduce fossil fuel usage and even that was financially driven, post New-Orleans. Maybe if it was anyone other than the orally challenged Monsieur Bush, then the perception outside the US might be different? I dunno the answer, otherwise I'd be a rich man!!!

Bing

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

The US, like Europe, has been reducing pollution since the 1960's. I grew up in Michigan, near the Detroit River. When I was a kid that river was a chemical cesspool, now it hosts salmon runs. The same has happened, and continues to happen with air quality.
This has gone on under conservative and liberal administrations.

So, Americans of all stripes are sensitive to environmental issues.

Our recent presidents have had "oral" problems, no doubt about it! Yet Bush, in my opinion, represents a fairly straightforward position on the issue. To wit; there simply is no replacement at this time for fossil fuels!
Wind and solar can supplement our energy needs, but they can't replace fossil fuels. Everywhere you look in the US you'll see solar panels and wind turbines. Even here in the back of beyond, we're building wind turbines up on the ridge above town. Yet, even here in this tiny little town which gets immense winds all year around, it will supply only 15% of our energy needs.

And weirdly (or not), the only sensible and cost effective replacement for fossil fuel is being blocked by the very greens that so strenously oppose fossil fuels! Nuclear energy! With this fuel you could cleanly power the world. And you can do it safely as modern plants have proved.

Yet, what troubles me about the whole issue is how it's being used as propaganda against the US, or as a reason for inaction by other nations. I read the Telegraph this morning and Blair has made a speech saying that it's useless to make any new environmental agreements unless the US signs on... Excuse me? Why is US participation needed for the EU to commit economic suicide? Can't they do this without our help?

Keith in Kodiak

Posted by: J60

just to cover a few points,

basicly because without the US signing the Chinese and indians won't, what he said was it will need every one in with no exceptions including china and India,

it's not economic suicide its a slow down in growth not in the economy as a whole, the indian and chinese gov't want a better life for the people in their country, and without agreement we will just continue as we are now,
china is building the equivilent to one new coal fired power station every week, although i'm not sure what the capacity is,

a third of all polution is vehicle emmisions, but the US gov't won't budge on that one either,

and Blair is also looking at building Nuclear plants again,

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

The Chinese and Indians don't care what the US does. They have their own reasons for not signing any agreements.

So, does this mean Blair is admitting now that Kyoto was nonsense since it exempted India and China?

Posted by: J60

India China and the US

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

The US wasn't exempt under Kyoto. Only 3rd world nations who pump uncontrolled pollutants into the atmosphere were exempt under kyoto.

Posted by: J60

i realise that keith,

This time he's hoping to get the US to sign by not give the Indian and chinese exemption from the agreement, they also will have to play there part, they can no longer use the argument they made for exclusion when the idea was first thought up, their rapid economic growth has trebled the amount of polution they produce since the Kyoto agreement was tabled,

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Well, if you remove the exemption for the Chinese and Indians, they'll refuse to sign, and the US still will not sign it.

Are you aware that the 1988 model for climate change caused by industrial sulfites (that the entire Kyoto protocol is based on) has turned out to be wrong?
This model predicted a 2 degee rise in temperatures by 2000, and yet there was a slight drop in temperatures!

Kyoto is not only bad politics, it's based on bad science!

I'm proud of my country for staying out of this nonsense.

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

a rather big and interesting post.

First I will tend to agree with Keith than Russians are quickly more assimilated into new cultures, than most others.
My own little pocket theory would be that have missing international contact, so they have this rule: ' when you are in Rome, do as the Romans'.

The cross-atlantic ongoing discussion are based at the same. When a European arrives in America, yuo can ask the question ' did he come to Rome or did he leave Rome'?. Here refering to a culturel conflict as who is the Master and who is going to bow for the other.

And that is for me something especially for the Germans and French because French is the 2nd. official language worldwide, France is considered a winner in WWII, has a permanent seat in UN, and is the largest country in European, not counting Russia in square miles/km. And Germany has until the mid80ies been one of the 3 main economics worldwide and still today is a economical engine in EU, and after the unification of East and West they are biggest in population, by 20 millions and was seen as model country with workers rigth, social welfare systems and so on.
So its not funny for them, that these things are being comprised, its an attack at tem and so its naturally they turn into defensiv strategy.

But hold on!! Its that not also valid for USA? yes it is. American see themself living in the best country in world and so the rest of the world of course want what they have. So when you critise America, you are instantly getting soemthing back at your face.
However I think this would go for most nations worldwide, but when big countries does it like Germany/France - USA its so more intens and significant for the world.