How to spot a "scammer," or someone who does not have honest intentions... - Russian Ukrainian Belarus Travel Music Woman Dating News

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How to spot a "scammer," or someone who does not have honest intentions...
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Posted by: Khashyar

Hello everyone...

In another thread in another part of this forum, someone asked a question about how do you spot a "scammer," or someone who is not being honest about their intentions in communicating with you.

I actually write my very detailed observations about this on this website in the "About Russian Women" section: http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...mmunication.htm

I think that one of the most important things to realize and a good rule of thumb is that do NOT send any money to anyone until you have met them and are engaged to be married, then the people who ARE after money will not spend much time communicating with you.

Most "Scammers" are dishonest people who are looking for money. If they realize that they will not be receiving any money from you, then they will look for other targets.

Also... I think that it takes more time to really get to know who someone is through the internet, so... procede with patience in getting to know someone who lives in another country. Get to know them consistently by writing emails as often as you can, speaking on the phone regularly, and then going for a visit.

Pay attention to signs and red flags...

And trust your instincts...

I may write more about this later when I have more time...

(I would love to read other's opinions and experiences about this also)...

Khashyar

Posted by: Emetsky

I just wanted to say that sending money even before you've met in person can be a good thing too. Russian women like men who take care of them.

For example, I remember when I sent my first Russian girlfriend money via WU, she said, "This means that you are really serious about me." She also said, "you are a man who knows what he wants and knows how to get it."

Just don't send too much money 'cause if you send too much, they might prefer to stay where they are instead of going to your country. They might think, just keep sending me the money and visit me in Russia once in a while :-)

Posted by: ConnerVT

Remember, scammers are getting smarter all the time. They are learning how to push all the right buttons.

Quote:

...she said, "This means that you are really serious about me." She also said, "you are a man who knows what he wants and knows how to get it."

If you are sending money to someone, of course you are serious about her.

What man doesn't want to be thought of as being serious, when he's developing a relationship? What man doesn't want to be seen as strong, knows what he wants, and has the power to get it?

I'm not saying that your g/f there was a scammer. But that doesn't mean that every woman who says these words is as sincere as your intentions were.

If this was a woman from from your own country, would you have sent money if you had never met her? Even if her situation was desperate, I would guess that most people would not. A small gift, flowers, other tokens of appreciation and developing friendship, yes. Cash? Hmmm...

The worst trap is to be in the mindset that you are courting a Russian Woman (or Ukrainian, or...). The way to look at it is you are courting a woman, who is from somewhere else. The customs may differ, but your frame of mind should stay the same.

Posted by: Emetsky

Hmmmmm, that's interesting what you said.

Now I feel like a button :-D

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

I agree with Conner and Khashyar.

Yes flowers are good and you have to listern to your instinct's but be truthful guys you know when a lady is a bad seed but i feel most guys want a good and happy family and nice wife and this is where the Russian women finds a weakness.

My answer if a lady does not call you after one week by e.mail then move on because if you like somone you will find away.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

If you have been talking to a lady for 3 months and have booked flight and then all of a sudden you have no contact from her then i would be suspicious because e.mail is just one click away and they know you will pay the bill if they can't afford.

If one day they are in Russia and next in America get rid of this person straight away.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: Jerico

After I did meet my( hopfully ) future wife I did send her some money to help her out.
I mean hey it is a natural thing to do I guess.
I cant take her out to dinner or the movies since she is in Russia so I help her out some with money until she is here.
Not a lot of money , just some so she can talk to me on her cell phone , etc. Plus I will pay for her airfare to embassy soon and hotel arrangements and such. I cant expect her to come up with the money.

Of course i have already met her. I would not send money to a woman I have not met either as Conner said , Would you do this for an American girl? Probably not.

Jerry

Posted by: wavetossed

All this talk about scammers makes me embarassed to be a foreign man looking for a Russian wife. I certainly don't want to be lumped in with the men who loudly trumpet that any woman from Russia who receives money is a scammer. As far as I'm concerned these guys are losers who aren't likely to have any better success with Russian women than they had with women in their own country.

At least Khashyar elaborates on the issue and gets to the heart of the matter, i.e. think, look for red flags, trust your instincts. Most guys just parrot the party line that any woman who will accept money before marriage is a scammer and then some of them take this to ridiculous levels, i.e. a woman who doesn't reply to email soon enough is a scammer or a woman who won't call you is a scammer.

Well all of this advice is quite simply WRONG! I have personally sent about $200 to a woman in Russia who I had never met and never spoken to on the phone. A few weeks later, after we had spoken on the phone, it all went quiet. No calls, no email. Then I got an email that her phone had been stolen and her girlfriend with the computer/internet was out of town with a very sick daughter.

a. My girlfriend lives in a small town in which there is effectively no public Internet access. She has a friend who is an interpreter for a mining company and this wealthy woman actually owns a PC with a modem. This wealthy woman actually has a PHONE LINE in her apartment unlike 60% of the people in town. And for a small fee she will let her friends send and receive emails.

b. My girlfriend has a mobile phone which gives her the privilege of paying $1.80 per minute for receiving foreign calls. Or making calls to foreign countries. And her salary is about $75 per month.

c. I verified the rates of the mobile company on the web. I also verified the existence of the small town and the economic situation there. I even verified that in March 2004 the average salary of hospital workers across Russia is $75 and my girlfriend works in a hospital.

d. I offered the money to her. She refused. I explained that I wasn't buying her, just paying for a phone bill so we could talk. She was just doing a favor in carrying the money to the phone company. I sent the money, she bought lots of phone cards. We had several conversations, very awkward at first, but even when two people are struggling with a foreign language, you can learn a lot on the phone. Let's just say that it provides rich food for your instincts.

Everything else that may sound like a red flag was true. She never asked for money to replace the mobile. She never asked for money for the sick child.

After 4 months of email and phonecalls I went and visited her for 2 weeks, we fell in love, and as soon as the FSB provides her security check to OVIR so that they can issue her passport, she will come to visit me in England. When I was visiting she was careful with money and she wouldn't let me pay for everything. She even bought gifts for me and my kids. She is not a scammer, she is a genuine person who was in tears all morning on my last day in Russia. At the bus station she surprised me by handing me two tickets! She was taking the day off work to accompany me to Chelyabinsk so that we would be together just a few hours more. And as the bus to Ekaterinburg pulled out of Chelyabinsk station with her standing on the platform, there were tears rolling down her cheeks.

You can't judge one person by the standards of another. And you can't judge your Russian woman's actions by the standards of the people you happen to have met in the past. And you have to realize that the Russian woman you are writing to has a life. She has family, friends, a job, obligations, etc. She isn't there just to write letters to you or read your mind and call you when you think that you should be called.

I think there are probably a lot of so-called scammers who are just the victims of rude and boorish foreign men who have no manners. I'd love to see someone actually track down these women and find out their side of the story. In July I read a story in the Chelyabinsk Worker newspaper about an American who arrived to visit his girlfriend with two gold rings in his pocket. This idiot was ready to propose to her! And he expected to live at her apartment with her and her parents! After the first day everybody was appalled by his manners. After the second day they kicked him out. He went back home and reported her as a scammer so she was delisted by the dating agency. She persevered and wrote to men who advertised on dating sites, and found a special guy who came to visit 6 months later. After 3 weeks in Chel, he proposed and they plan to marry. This is at least one instance in which the so-called Russian scammer wasn't.

Posted by: rtking

Quote:

Wavetossed wrote:
In July I read a story in the Chelyabinsk Worker newspaper about an American who arrived to visit his girlfriend with two gold rings in his pocket. This idiot was ready to propose to her! And he expected to live at her apartment with her and her parents! After the first day everybody was appalled by his manners. After the second day they kicked him out. He went back home and reported her as a scammer so she was delisted by the dating agency.

Wavetossed makes a good point. I've heard this as well. (Of course, there are two sides to every story and the truth lies somewhere in-between...)

I had heard from my Olga that a man had come to visit her before. He didn't describe himself well and he looked nothing like the photos he had sent. Olga went on a date with him and a translator to a local restaurant where, throughout the whole meal, he was staring at her and mentally undressing her. She felt completely uncomfortable and decided to not have a second date with him.

To be fair and honest, I'm sure there are many women who scam. But I also think there are also a decent number of men who feel slighted at the rejection and may take retribution as listing someone as a scammer.

Myself, for example: I was previously engaged to a great girl named Oksana. As it turned out, things didn't work out and I wasn't myself at one of the darker moments in my life. She felt that I wasn't the person she had met before and had a few reservations and decided not to continue with the engagement and relationship. During this time, I had sent money, flowers, given her a ring, etc. Do I consider her a scammer for keeping these things? Absolutely not. It just didn't work out and she was honest enough to tell me before going through the Fiancee Visa process. (We had just received our 2nd NOA.) It was heart breaking and I was devastated... but I can honestly say that I think she'll make a great wife for someone and is genuinely a nice person.

What I consider a scammer, however, is someone who has no genuine intention of a relationship and asks for money or gifts. I ran into those too... simple scams such as the car accident and sick relative all the way to elaborate scams involving vacations (in my case, to Prague), etc.

Bob

Posted by: ConnerVT

Would you send $200 to a woman in Oklahoma that you have never met?

(Making the assumption that $200 in the US is roughly equivilent to $20 in provincial FSU)

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Wave . please send me $200- I could put this to good use - we have never met and we have never seen each other - How does this sound to you ?

Rattle

Posted by: James Riske

Rattle,

I find your post personally offensive to wave.

You should have at least offered to send him a pic of yourself in a bikini before you asked him to send you $200a month. After all, you don't want to make him look like a fool, do you?

(my offer is still valid for Gino in that I'll send him a pic of me in a speedo the $500 a month he's sending to his 'one and only".)

"""""
As far as I'm concerned these guys are losers who aren't likely to have any better success with Russian women than they had with women in their own country."""

huh?

So, if I don't send women money, I won't be successful with them? Sounds like you're hiring whores to me.

At least when I hire a whore, I get to meet them and have sex with them. (but that's just me, I get what I pay for).

And the only reason I'm seeking a Russian woman is because I've had no success with women in my own country? Ever think that I'm just expanding my options a bit and enjoy foreign women better?

(and if one did have success with women in the first place, would he even be seeking other women at all? And does the simple state of being single and looking mean that one is not successful?)

""" I'd love to see someone actually track down these women and find out their side of the story""""

Let's ask all the pickpockets and bankrobbers to tell us their sob stories too, huh?

I've been all up and down the economic ladders more so than anyone on here. I've gone from utter homelessness with absolutely nothing in my early 20's to now a millionaire without any help from anyone at all: no loans, no grants, no help, no nothing. Just good old fashioned hard work and belief in honest values and hard work, hard work and more hard work and let me tell you: any woman who asks me for a dime or even the typical code phrases of, 'What kind of car do you drive?" "What kind of house do you have?" etc...Gets the old heave ho. Let alone someone with the nerve enough to ask me for a couple hundred bucks because her computer broke or whatever.

My next natural question to her would be, "Now that we know what you are. How much for a #$%@job?"

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

First i would like to say this is a good subject and i feel being honest is the best way in a relationship.

When two people meet on the internet it may be game to start with i don't know? but in time you will warm to this person and have nice feelings and a relationship will grow and marrige might happen.

It's true what Elena Models said yes you may be talking to a Russian lady and the day before you arive she meets a nice Russian man, but its about being honest don,t run away but help this guy you have invited to your country, its the only way.

I met Frank who runs ukrainebride.net and this guy is honest and he tells you never to send money and not be the the sugar daddy and he is right, if a lady does not want to meet a man he tells them this guy has spent big money at least turn up if they say no they are deleted form his website.

I feel many men feel sorry for the Russian women but they should not they were doing fine before they met you.

I have only dated women who have children but i will never date a lady who has a child again, yes you know where they are at night but they can cause big problems and i dont need this in my life.

One more thing you don't know someone untill you meet them and if the lady you are dating is seeing other man you will see and please always take a back up plan, if she cant meet you one day or can only see you for a few hours and things don't feel right get rid of her and one more thing when you or your lady book appartment make sure you are very close to her home.

Invitations to Belarus how long do they take and do they cost money i'm form London England.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

JR ... how so ? My point was to show how ridculous it is to send money to strangers .

No offense was meant , wave .

rattle

Posted by: wavetossed

Well, quite frankly, Vodafone are strangers to me. I don't know anyone who works there and yet I send them money every month, trusting that in return they will enable my mobile phone to communicate. I've even given them permission to go directly into my bank account every month and take out as much as they need to pay for my phone usage. Is this crazy?

If not, then why is it crazy to send money to my Russian pen-friend so that she can pay for her mobile phone? After all, what's more important, friendship or money?

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

wave , I was trying to explain that many men do send money to people they have never met but the mobile phone issue and the relationship issue are two different subjects IMHO.
As you probably know by now, many men send money to women they write to on the internet and they then get scammed because the woman/ blob they were writing to was only after thier money and was not interested in freindship etc.
The best advice I ever found was NEVER SEND MONEY TO SOMEONE YOU HAVE NEVER MET.
If you log onto the antiscam / scammer websites you will learn the modus operandi of the scammer and you will learn it painlessly .

rattle

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by wavetossed
Well, quite frankly, Vodafone are strangers to me. I don't know anyone who works there and yet I send them money every month, trusting that in return they will enable my mobile phone to communicate. I've even given them permission to go directly into my bank account every month and take out as much as they need to pay for my phone usage. Is this crazy?

If that's your rationale, do you know anyone over at Verizon Wireless? If not, please send $45 a month to them, to help pay for my mobile phone bill.

Posted by: wavetossed

OK, Rattlesnake, I will agree with you that for the weak-minded, a rule like "NEVER SEND MONEY TO SOMEONE YOU HAVE NEVER MET" is a good thing to compensate for their inability to judge people and situations.

But let's not trumpet this as some sort of universal rule. It isn't. It's just a shortcut for people who are unwilling or unable to put the effort into analyzing their relationship methodically and rationally. Frankly, when I sent the money to this woman, I was not 100% sure that she was genuine. This was a test of the relationship in more ways than one. If she had disappeared with the money then I would have learned a lesson about her and $200 was a reasonable amount to spend for this. When I thought about the downside, I realized that for me, it was a minor risk because I don't particularly care about the $200. Like any kind of gamble, once you decide to spend the money you have got to let go of it emotionally as if it is already lost. Otherwise you risk being hurt emotionally when you lose the bet and you risk getting addicted to gambling because of the emotional attachments.

I agree that this is hard to explain to other people. It's a lot easier to give them a few rules of thumb like not sending money. But these rules of thumb do oversimplify the situation and people run the risk of losing focus of the job at hand, i.e. winning the heart of a woman. If a guy approaches this task as something that you can do by the book, just following some rules of thumb, then he is focusing on the wrong thing. Don't focus on the book, don't focus on the rules, because that way leads to madness not happiness.

This is a lesson that a whole generation of American women has learned the hard way. In the late 70's a woman published a book called "The Rules" that told women how to win a man. The woman who bought her book in their millions, wasted years of their lives chasing an impossible fantasy paying too much attention to a book of rules. They didn't win their man or find happiness with a man because instead of focusing on the individual men and their reactions to those men, they spent too much time with a book. It wasn't until the TV series "Sex and the City" came along that women broke out of this disastrous cycle, although there are still a lot of women mindlessly following the rulebook.

You can't find happiness by following somebody else's rulebook. You have to put all of your attention on the one person who you are courting, learn all you can about her, and treat her with respect and understanding. Don't ever jump to conclusions about her or her motivations, especially because she comes from a different culture and neither of you speaks a common language fluently enough to be sure of every nuance. Sometimes it is appropriate for you to send her money before meeting. Sometimes it is appropriate for her to ask for money. It does not necessarily mean that she is a scammer. She could just be testing you because she knows that wealthy Russian men like to "buy" young and beautiful girlfriends. Maybe she is testing you to see if you are serious about romance or whether you are just like those wealthy Russian men with no real passion for a woman.

In fact, it is entirely possible that a woman who asks for money is a scammer, but she still may be worth winning over. Obviously she may be fat Yuri in disguise, but she could also be someone who has become cynical about men because of past disasters. And a man who is willing to be a real friend and not abandon the relationship due to small indiscretions can break through the cynical exterior and find the gem inside. Of course, that means that you shouldn't send the money because that is just playing the "cynical" game.

So, to put it into a nutshell, I am opposed to parroting simplistic rules. I think there are exceptions to every rule.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Wave , the advice concerning the sending of money to complete strangers is not just for "the weak-minded" or for people who have an "inability to judge people and situations."

. Remember the saying " Pride comes before a fall " - well the same goes for ignoring simple but global truths that are known not only on this forum but in most countries in the world and most people would agree irrespective of custom , culture ,age sex or religion that sending money to a complete stranger ( without having met them - because we are talking about internet romance / long distance relationships here , arent we ? ) is held to be a foolish thing to do .

. By its nature a scam can be sophisticated or simple but the way scammers work is that it is rarely a one women or one fat bob operation. Likewise forgeries of visas can easily be acquired as can forgeries of passports , driving licences in fact most documentation is easily available at a price .

Because the majorrity of us are not experts at forgery detection and not experts in document verifocation the process of determing whether someone is real or not can be complex and some men ( and we're talking intelligent university educated professional men ) do end up being scammed because they never realised that sending money was the whole point of the corespondance and of course being men of the world they never thought in a million years it would happen to them .

Wave , I know alot of this is common sense . Good grief I wouldnt send money to a woman in my country why should I send money to a woman in another country ? No the real question is why should so many men be sending money to women and what kind of realtionship do they expect from this arrangement because I know for sure in my country men do not send money to women they have not met and certainly do not have moral dilemmas concerning this issue.

Rattle

Posted by: rob_we

rattle, james

somehow you guys must have made quite bad experiences!
And you are soo afraid to loose your precious 20 bucks and to look like a complete idiot, right?

Thats from all I read here your major concern.

At least james is a millionair now, bravo!!! who really HAS to care about this 20 bucks!

I mean to be non sarcastic now its not about the money itself, right?

Actually to grow from a bum (sorry homeless person) to a milionaire is the big thing to lots of people right?

I myself actually cant think of becoming a bum in the first place, but maybe its all about the cultural difference I suppose.

I think an opinion like this, with all this absolutism and grief and anger results out of some really deep untreated inferiority complex. That might also be the reason why (i read lots of your posts james) all women are so cruel to you.

Maybe its just because you forgot or never found out that there are more things in life then making money?

If you want to be loved you should give people a reason, and this would be trust and being grateful and understanding, not spying and mistrusting everyone.

Dickens had a good opinion about it as far as I can remember

Posted by: ConnerVT

Here is some other good reason for not sending money: It influences how people think.

You send money, now you think you are owed something in return (even if it's just gratitude).

She may be hesitant to "pull the plug" on the relationship, for fear that she will lose the income. Not because she's a scammer, but because her feelings are not as strong as she wanted.

She may grow dependent on the added income, and make it difficult for her if YOU decide that she isn't the woman you wished for.

Adding money into any relationship changes it's dynamic. Try lending a few hundred bucks to a same sex acquaintance. See how it affects your friendship. Now add distance, sexual desire, and a language and cultural difference. It will all just make things cloudier, when the goal is to make a clear minded decision.

My $0.02 worth (and I have no expectations about it

)

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Rob - its not the money I am worried about - I am already down by $ 6, 000 and probably will be much worse off soon . No what I am talking about is the way in which money- $ or £ - interferes with and complicates what should on the surface be a process of meeting someone and deciding if you like her and she likes you .

ConnorVT has explained the way money complicates things and I am sure that the majority of men would not want this type of relationship.

Rattle

Posted by: wavetossed

Conner,

The same dynamic exists with gifts, even after you have met the woman in person.

I gave my girlfriend over $500 worth of English language learning materials: graded readers, audio-books, advanced English lessons, high-school English coursebooks, magazines, Readers Digest condensed books, abridged versions of classic literature published for teenagers, etc. I also spent around $200 for a CD-MP3 player for her and gave her 3 CD-roms full of English audio MP3s that I downloaded from the Internet. Lots of radio shows from VOA, Radio Canada International, and other stuff. She knew how much (roughly) I spent and she realized the effort that I had put into the MP3 collection.

After two weeks with her, the day before I left to go home, I sat down and had a heart to heart talk with her. I made it clear that all this was a gift to her, not a payment. I reminded her that she is a free woman and doesn't owe me anything in return. I told her that if she decides I am not the right man for her, then she is to keep all of these gifts or give them to someone else, NOT to return them. I told her about a poster, common in Canada, with a picture of a bird flying away from a cage with an open door. Underneath it says "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back it is yours, if it doesn't, then it never was". I told her that I was setting her free and she should not feel any obligation to me at all unless she really did want to continue our relationship.

Since that time, we have continued to write to each other, send SMS almost every day, chat on the phone. It feels like we are getting closer, but of course, the real test will be the next meeting in a month or so. I happen to believe that you can build a stronger relationship by testing it every so often, especially when you test it in this way, because it gives the opportunity to reaffirm your feelings for each other. This is inherently more positive than to test a relationship through disagreements and fighting. In any case, you can't avoid the disagreements from time to time, so it doesn't seem wise to manufacture such things to test a relationship.

Posted by: rob_we

ConnerVT

I still dont get the point.
Here in germany theres this odd attitude even when you take out a girl.
Lots of german guys do not pay for the girl because of this thing "then shethinks she ows me something".

Back to the topic: I mean we talk about the expenses she has contacting the guy. We talk about 20 bucks support on internet or phone.

What is it? Do you pay for a girl you take out only if you get something out of her forgetting the fact that it is (at least to my humble opinion) maybe already something that she wants to be with you?.
Are these "oldfashioned" ideas of correct behaviour so far out already?

Is this maybe the reason why so many guys can´t find a girl at all?

Think about it, and think about the idea of "winning" someones heart!

Again if i would be a russian girl , spending 30 % of my income on communication with a guy struggling and knowing my guy has so much money that he doesn´t even feel 20 bucks, i would expect him to help me talking to him if he IS serious.

Probably anyone here considers me to be an idiot or a scammer who tries to encourage guys to send money to be ripped off, but all I can say is these values are still dear to me...

If you don´t want to loose you cant win, thats just about it!

Posted by: parasionok

Guys I am sorry for interrupting, but again what wave said makes much more sense to me that all your warnings DO NOT SEND MONEY...

Wave just showed that there could be circumstances when it is ok to send money to someone even before meeting. He sent money to his girlfriend to pay her phone bills because he WANTED to talk to her on the phone and he WANTED to give her an opportunity to call him.. and he as a real gentleman did not want her to pay herself from her not very high salary to do that. It just shows that he cares.

I repeat again: if you are so scared to lose money, then find yourself a rich girl who can pay for everything and maybe support you as well.

Rattle, I am sorry you lost 6 grand but again nobody stole it from you... If someone who I really love to talk to on the internet asks me to send him money because he cannot afford to pay his internet fees, I will do it... What the heck?

Some time ago my Finnish friend borrowed 50 Euros from me when we were out. He wanted to give it back to me afterwards, but I said: next time you take me out... well, there was not second time, because I moved to another city... So whats the problem?

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Para - I am out by $ 6000 becauae of travel costs, holiday expenses and visa interview fees- no one stole it - I have enjoyed the travel and would do it again . But the bottom line was that I was unwilling to send money to a woman I had never met because I felt uncomforable with this set up ..

I know what you are all thinking- this guy is tighter than a ducks
**** but I just want to say as one adult to another

Rattle

Posted by: rob_we

...and there is something else to add here...

Russians, who some people here consider to be so greedy, can be so embarrasing generous that western guys like us can just feel bad about being like we all are. I have experienced so many ways of giving and sharing even between me and someone i did not even know. Usually russians take care about their environment much more than werstern people do.

Example: I was on a train in russia for some hours. Because i underestimated the distance i had no food with me. After about 20 minutes I was "forced" by some guys to share their food with them. No way out. They didnt speak a word of any foreign language, I didn´t speak any russian. We communicated with "hands and feet". They did not expect me to give anything to them. They just saw i don´t have food!

Could you ever think about something like this happening in western countries. Actually i travel a lot it never happens to me in the west. Caring about each other has quite a different importance there. I got presents from russians (also girls) that were way over what i ever would have spent (compared in value/income) before for a western girl!

The russians I know, and it is some up to now, do not have this give-take attidude as we have in the western world. If they give they do not expect a return. And if they like you you will not have the problem to explain that its a present, not a rent! Thats is why i think wave has the right attitude. ..and i guess his girl understands and appreciates what he does...

Posted by: parasionok

Rattle,

exactly... You spent this money to visit your sweetheart, to explore other country, to enjoy yourself, and you said before to help your gf with her tuition.

I spent 3K the Christmas before to go to Rome for me and my friend because I didn't want to go alone. That guy I was going with turned out to be an assh**l and we don't even speak at all now. Was I scammed? NO. I wanted to go with someone and I paid for it... It was my choice and I don't regret it.. Well, of course I will never do anything stupid like that again

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Para - are you saying you paid the $ 3000 for you and him to go to Rome ? I have been taught , lived breathed and memorised the mantra that in russia or ukraine that the man pays for everything - is this still true or myth / half true depending on how ugly/ foolish the guy is ?

rattle

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
Guys I am sorry for interrupting, but again what wave said makes much more sense to me that all your warnings DO NOT SEND MONEY...

No, that's not exactly right.

The advice is Never send money to someone you have never met. This is much different than what you wrote. The difference is that, until you have actually met a person, you do not truly have a relationship with them. Until you finally meet, you have a relationship with a mental idealized image of who you would like them to be. Big difference.

Once two adults have met, then they may decide how they wish to proceed.

Posted by: parasionok

Rattle, you were taught wrong. It is absolutely not true that all Russian women just sit there and wait for some guys to come and pay for them. If you go to big cities like Moscow, Kiev, Minsk, St. Pete, you will definitely notice how emancipated lots of women are there. I know lots of families where women earn more than their husbands... Of course you tend to date people from your own circle. Like if I want to date a guy who cannot afford to take me to night clubs or restaurants I usually go to, then he will eventually feel uncomfortable that I pay for him all the time and he will start finding excuses not to go out with me. On the other hand, if I really like the guy, then I might just stop going to expensive places myself.... I mean it is like everywhere else in the world... Russia is no third world country though James has been screaming all over that it is... Frankly speaking, I don't believe him

Conner, please read my post again... I said that there was nothing wrong to send money to someone you have never met. I said that if I correspond with a guy and I want to continue to do so, but he is telling me that he cannot afford to pay for internet, I WILL send him money.... Of course I will do so only if I really do want to continue writing to him.... Is there anything wrong with that?????

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
Of course I will do so only if I really do want to continue writing to him.... Is there anything wrong with that?????

It depends on what you want and expect from this person. Would you pay for a man who wasn't from America?

I believe that injecting money into a relationship changes the way both people look at it. The change is even greater when there is a large economic disparity between the two people involved.

I also believe that there isn't truly a full relationship between people until they meet. Even people who write many letters have found that once they meet in person, the relationship isn't what they thought (wished?) it would be. But they keep moving forward with the relationship, even with the thoughts of disappointment in their mind. For they have already 'invested' much time and effort. It can only be worse if they have also invested money (or are afraid the income may stop).

If you wish to spend money to communicate with a total stranger, there are many 1-900 telephone numbers that you can call in the U.S. The people there will tell you whatever you wish to hear...

Posted by: parasionok

Conner,

I think everybody has to make their own decisions... And as Wave said, there could be circumstances where it is ok to send money even if you have never met. Everything depends on the situation, on a person involved.

You said: I believe that injecting money into a relationship changes the way both people look at it.

We all inject money into a relationship. I buy presents for my friends, I spend money on travels to visit them... I am not talking only about romance. I invest money in my friends as well. Everybody does.

you said: The change is even greater when there is a large economic disparity between the two people involved.

Then again why don't you choose girls with more or less good income? Why don't you choose those who can pay their phone bills and internet connection? As I said before, there are thousands of local Russian or Ukrainia dating sites, there is ICQ, MSN... Why do you go to agencies and buy those e.mail addresses of non-existing girls????

You ask: Would you pay for a man who wasn't from America?

YES

You said: But they keep moving forward with the relationship, even with the thoughts of disappointment in their mind.

Why would they do that?

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Para , thanks for your feedback - I knew intuitively that the bald statement " the man pays everything " cannot be true throughout the fsu because there are many women who are well educated and have good jobs in the fsu .

I think I picked up this myth from reading stuff from Marriage agemcy sites and as I know these are not the best source of info ... thats why I come here - you get to hear all sides of the story .

Rattle

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
Then again why don't you choose girls with more or less good income? Why don't you choose those who can pay their phone bills and internet connection?

Uh... I believe I did. My wife's standard of living in Russia was about the same as ours is now in the US. Although not living in Moscow (or making Moscow-like wages), she owned her own flat, furnished very comfortably. She managed a department for a government agency with 10 women beneath her. She would vacation a few times a year, about the FSU.

She had much more to lose by marrying me, than the other way around. She left behind not only her career, but also her family.

My wife never asked me for money before we met. For our second meeting, we made plans to vacation in Sochi. Although I would pay for our expenses, she made our hotel reservations without any money from me, and I first sent her money to purchase our airline tickets.

When I left her money for English, she kept accounting of every Pyb she spent, even the 6 rouble bus fare each way. I never asked her to do this.

When choosing where to eat, or what to do, she always choses what was the best value for us.

My wife always looked at it as "our money". This is how people who will spend their life together develop trust -- the most important aspect of a long term relationship.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
You said: I believe that injecting money into a relationship changes the way both people look at it.

We all inject money into a relationship. I buy presents for my friends, I spend money on travels to visit them... I am not talking only about romance. I invest money in my friends as well. Everybody does.

Have you met the friends you buy presents for? When you travel, do you do it for your enjoyment?

I talk about sending money to a virtual voice on the Internet. A person you have never met, that has not proved themselves to you to truly be honest and sincere. Any person who does this is gullible, and deserves to have less money in their pocket.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by rattlesnake6979
I knew intuitively that the bald statement " the man pays everything " cannot be true throughout the fsu because there are many women who are well educated and have good jobs in the fsu .

There are few statements that can globally cover any situation in the FSU. It is as diverse a region as anywhere in the world.

There are the new rich, and the very poor. Life in Moscow can be easily compared with life in NYC (after all, there's only about a half a million more people living in Moscow!). Smaller cities can be nice or not, depending on the economic climate and the morals of the local government. Life in the rural areas is as anywhere else, difficult. Certainly, a woman from one region can not be easily compared with another.

Whenever you try to make a "One Size Fits All" generalization, you will miss the mark more times than you will hit it.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
You said: But they keep moving forward with the relationship, even with the thoughts of disappointment in their mind.

Why would they do that?

I guess it's because it is much more difficult to court a person half way around the world than it is to do so with someone who lives half way across town.

For the man -- He has invested time, effort, money, and vacation time to travel thousands of miles to meet the woman who goes with the photos, letters, and dreams he has in his head. It's difficult for anyone to live up to that. Not wanting to begin at step one, he tries to make it work. (BTW, that's a man thing, always trying to fix things).

For the woman -- Unless she's a young supermodel-type (or a player), this may be the only WM that she has ever had visit her. She will do her best to keep her options open if he is at least a half decent guy (but not her dream man). Wanting to do this will only increase if he has been sending money regularly (10-20% of her monthly income, or more).

Posted by: FlashingEyes

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by parasionok
You said: I believe that injecting money into a relationship changes the way both people look at it.

We all inject money into a relationship. I buy presents for my friends, I spend money on travels to visit them... I am not talking only about romance. I invest money in my friends as well. Everybody does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parasionok,

Hey, good buddy! I just wanted to say hope you're well. Oh, by the way Christmas is coming soon and I'm hoping someone will send me a new sports car. Well that's all for now friend!

Flash

Posted by: wavetossed

Thanks Flash,

You've shown us a good example of why American men get victimized by Russian women. It's because many of them are jerks like you.

Russian women share notes on the Internet. They notice that the majority of American men on the net are stupid jerks like you. That's because the intelligent, nice American men aren't such loudmouths and therefore aren't as visible. So now that Russian women understand that many of the American men chasing them are idiots, they have started taking them for a ride to teach them a lesson. Sometimes it involves getting some cash out of the stingy b**tards. Other times it involves sucking him into a trip to Russia and maybe a few free meals if he can control his behavior for the first day or so.

I salute these women for their courage and their intelligence and I hope that through their valiant efforts, and your sterling example, young American men will perk up their ears and realize that their great grand-dads really did know a thing or two about romance and courting.

Posted by: parasionok

Flashing Eyes,

you just simply cannot stand women who are not looking at you in awe, who are not admiring you just because you are from America... It is just so sad....

I say no more

Posted by: parasionok

Conner,

please do not misunderstand me. I am not encouraging anyone here to send money to someone after a couple of illegible letters. I was just trying to say that IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES it is ok to do so...

Have you met the friends you buy presents for?

Normally yes... But: I am going to Ukraine on Friday and I am going to buy a present for my colleague who I have never met. By the way, I consider him as a very good friend. Again, it all depends on the situation.... I just don't want to be so categorical and start creating universal rules like "never-send-money, never-buy-yellow-toilet paper."

Of course if it is easier for everybody to avoid a scam by just following rules... well, I don't want to bring chaos into your structured society then....

Posted by: rob_we

... upppps flash, seems to me you ran out of commandments on this one

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by ConnerVT
Here is some other good reason for not sending money: It influences how people think.

You send money, now you think you are owed something in return (even if it's just gratitude).

She may be hesitant to "pull the plug" on the relationship, for fear that she will lose the income. Not because she's a scammer, but because her feelings are not as strong as she wanted.

She may grow dependent on the added income, and make it difficult for her if YOU decide that she isn't the woman you wished for.

Adding money into any relationship changes it's dynamic. Try lending a few hundred bucks to a same sex acquaintance. See how it affects your friendship. Now add distance, sexual desire, and a language and cultural difference. It will all just make things cloudier, when the goal is to make a clear minded decision.

My $0.02 worth (and I have no expectations about it )

The principle is the law of reciprocity. Pychologically, if I do something for you, you owe me... My extent of "giving something financially" is that I paid for N's english lessons and I am paying for her email translation from Russian to english. (not through her agency either.)

I suspect N has no idea what it costs.

I look at it this way.... Her life was the way it was before she met me. My coming into her life shouldnt be a reason for there to be a big economic change. At least not before she moves in with me at home.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

Jeeze do people outside the U.S. simply lack a sense of humor?

I can tell you that if I were talking with my friends and one of them said, "I like to buy people presents" and I said "well for Christmas you can buy me a new sportscar" that they would smile or laugh, but certainly nothing like:

wavetossed, representing England I believe - wow, I can't even describe how inappropriate your post was

parasionok, representing Russia I believe - sorry no such deep psychological analysis - it was just a lighthearted comment

rob_we, representing Germany I believe - sorry no deep philisophical connections to morality - just a mild attempt at humor

(edited for spelling only)

Posted by: parasionok

Flash,

of course people outside the US lack a sense of humor... It should not surprise you, should it? If I were you buddy, not would I only laught at your joke, I would probably send you the sports car... a small toy or something...

In any case, this thread is in a loop I am afraid

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Wave - you missed out ... rattle representing the great city of Manchester in England !!!!

PS It is very difficult to be humerous on the internet.

rattle

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
Normally yes... But: I am going to Ukraine on Friday and I am going to buy a present for my colleague who I have never met. By the way, I consider him as a very good friend.

Doesn't support the initial premise -- giving a gift to someone you are meeting in person is certainly not the same as sending money to a person whom you never met.

Posted by: parasionok

Conner, I absolutely agree... But.. he had his b-day yesterday and I am going to there 1. because I am inveited for his b-day party 2. it is also a business trip. If i could not have made it to actually travel there, I would have sent the present by post...

Again, it is not the major point here. I was just trying to agree with Wave that there are no universal rules how to behave in different situations... You have to make your own decision based on your inner feelings or on circumstances.

Look at the example Wave posted in the beginning of this thread.

Again, I am not telling people here to send money to girls (or guys) they do not know... You should give something to someone only if you really want to and you are convienced that it is right to do so.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Para , to put things in perspective .. some guys ( mostly american although there are european men too ) are sending $ 1000 or $2000 to women they have never met. It wouldnt be too exagerrrated a claim that it has become a cottage industry in certain cities in the fsu and certain women as well as men have become very comfortable through this form of deception .

Why is it so easy to scam americans ?... I have picked up an atitude in talking to americans that they view a $100 bill as small change . Hence the ease with which scams occur - all thats needed is patience because eventually money is sent .

Now , having been to the Ukraine I know that the cost of living in these countries is alot less than in England ( in England , petrol (gas ) costs $ 14 a gallon- in Ukraine it costs about $ 2 ).

So scams are really easy to perpetrate.

Rattle

Posted by: parasionok

Rattle, Conner...

we are in a loop here... I do not encourage anyone to send huge amount of money to girls they have never met in thier lives before...

Why is it so easy to scam americans? Because those americans (and europeans) who are being scammed were mostly looking for some stupid women who could worship them and be greatful for the rest of their lives because their american or european cowboy got them out of their misery... Those who actually sent money to girls for airplane tickets, visas, etc just were trying to "buy" a woman. I posted several thoughts on that before so I don't want to repeat myself here...

I still believe that people can trust each other... I have some people I have been talkign on the internet for some years... I trust them and I consider them to be my friends... I never got to the point that I felt like I needed to support them, nor did they ever tell me that they needed some support from me... Still it is possible that in certain circumstances (similar to Wave's) it is ok to send money to someone you have never met before....

Look, Wave found his happiness not by suspecting his gf and following DO NOT SEND MONEY rule, but by listening to his heart.

I say no more

Posted by: James Riske

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok

Why is it so easy to scam americans? Because those americans (and europeans) who are being scammed were mostly looking for some stupid women who could worship them and be greatful for the rest of their lives because their american or european cowboy got them out of their misery... Those who actually sent money to girls for airplane tickets, visas, etc just were trying to "buy" a woman. I posted several thoughts on that before so I don't want to repeat myself here...

Why do you automatically assume the worse and bring out the very few men who fit into this category?

I believe that it's easy to scam Americans because of their inherent generosity and willingness to help others. Scammers, grifters, and con men wouldn't be in business if not for the fact that people are trusting and generous. Add that to the state that the man is in: he's lonely and searching for a partner and begins to feel emotions for this 'woman' who has been writing to him, talking to him on the phone, and sending him pictures.

Men do not wake up in the morning and say, "I'm such a loser that I'm going to start looking for a stupid woman from Russia and buy her!" The scammers slowly entice the man in and over a period of a few months, puts him in the albeit ridiculous position of sending someone he hasn't met a couple thousand dollars or even a few hundred to pay for her 'internet usage'. Romance bunco (asking a man to 'loan' them money after a few dates and then disappearing) and scammers have been around since the beginning of time. The only thing new is the internet.

They are victims and it's wrong to attribute maleficent intentions on their part. Stupidity? Yes? Evil intentions? No.

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
Look, Wave found his happiness not by suspecting his gf and following DO NOT SEND MONEY rule, but by listening to his heart.

I say no more

I once found a hundred dollar bill sitting on the sidewalk in the slums of Tijuana but I wouldn't recommend to others that they go there to try to find one too.

Posted by: wavetossed

Russians are trusting people too. Around a thousand folk musicians and dancers were stranded in Moscow when they discovered that the organization that they paid to set up a performance tour to Cyprus was simply a front for a scammer. You can read all about it at izvestia.ru

Scammers, trusting victims, Russia has it all, like any other country.

Posted by: James Riske

Quote:

Originally posted by wavetossed
Russians are trusting people too. Around a thousand folk musicians and dancers were stranded in Moscow when they discovered that the organization that they paid to set up a performance tour to Cyprus was simply a front for a scammer. You can read all about it at izvestia.ru

Scammers, trusting victims, Russia has it all, like any other country.

I'm sure they are wavetossed but the fact of the matter is that no country is more generous and lays down more lives for the betterment of other countries and asks nothing in return more than Americans and the United States.

James

Posted by: wavetossed

Sorry James, but I can't agree with that.

In WWII 27 million Russians laid down their lives so that the world would be free from Nazi fascism. If they hadn't done so, the allies would have lost WWII and the Nazis and Japanese would have used the Caspian oil fields to strengthen themselves for an invasion of the United States of America. Admittedly, an intercontinental invasion like that is very very hard to pull off but we know that German scientists had developed a secret weapon with awesome powers. One of these atomic bombs dropped on Washington DC would have been enough to soften the path.

So in the numbers game, Russia wins by a landslide.

And you should be old enough to realize that no country goes to war and lays down the lives of its citizens for no return. The USA, like any other country, only does this when the potential results support their vested interests. There is always an indirect or a direct financial benefit to war.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by wavetossed
In WWII 27 million Russians laid down their lives so that the world would be free from Nazi fascism.

Somehow, I do not believe that Stalin's motives were completely humanitarian. And I would say most who died in the Great Patriotic War did so to protect and defend their country, not to free the world from fascism.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Wave , Stalin signed a treaty /pact with Hitler before the start of WWII - Stalin was in effect saying to Hitler - We the russian people agree to not attack you Germans in the event of war - the Russian govt had absutely no interest in fighting fascism - the russian govt simply saw the threat from Germany and wanted to be on the winning side .... as well as to prevent aggression against thier people.

As you probably know Hitler , invaded Poland and then after some time tried to conquer Russia ... it was at this stage that Stalin ordered the defence of his country ( it was not to fight fascism )

Rattle

Posted by: parasionok

James,

Quote:

the fact of the matter is that no country is more generous and lays down more lives for the betterment of other countries and asks nothing in return more than Americans and the United States.

I agree with you on this one.. And not only its own people but other peoples as well.

I would not be that sure about asking nothing in return part though.

Posted by: rob_we

rattle
absolutely. They were almost buddies (Stalin/Hitler) ... Dictators usually have no pro to coexist but... Stalin should have read "Mein Kampf"... as so many other leaders at this time.
Hitler did more or less exactly what he wrote there... so somehow it was obvious that germany attacked the CCCP...

Posted by: eireannach

I guess the only thing that Stalin and Hitler has to do with "Scams, Scammers, & Scamming (discussions about)" is how they "scammed" their own people into allowing them to become despots and rule their countries -- and anyone else's that they could take -- with the proverbial iron fist.

I've been telling my best friend, who is getting more cynical and pessimistic with age (not to mention more like the old hermit in the movie "Heidi"), about my latest dealings with scammers and the people who fall victim to them. His remarks were:

> I see that you're trying to do something good for people you
> don't know, but I still say let the people be free to be scammed
> and to learn lessons for themselves.

Fortunately, I don't share his thoughts on this.

If I can help someone avoid being scammed, I will. Having worked as an I.T. person for over 16 years, I've seen my share of scams and so forth, so I can usually spot them right off. Where relationships are concerned, keep an open mind, but if things don't "feel" right at any time, then take a step back and ask yourself "why" it doesn't and act appropriately for the situation. "Common sense" should always prevail. I've made my own list of mistakes as far as relationships in the past are concerned, but I (hopefully) have learned from them and try not to repeat them.

Life is not without it's risks, but if a person gives in to cynicsm and pessimissm, then they will be more likely to go without knowing just how good a relationship can be with the right person. I suppose this can apply to the scammers as well...as long as they just want to scam others, then they will never be likely to know what a healthy, normal relationship is. I can't say with any certainty why a scammer does what he/she does, but I do try to be aware of how they work and so avoid them. They will get what's coming to them in the long run. When they reach the end of their days in this life, they will look back and see that while they were concentrating on scamming others and trying to get what they can, they were missing out on living. JMHO.