The Rollback of Democracy In Vladimir Putin's Russia - Russian Ukrainian Belarus Travel Music Woman Dating News

	The Russian Meeting Place: A place to meet people and talk about all things Russian... International Discussions about Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Travel, Music, Russian News, Ukrainian culture, Belarusian Dating, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kiev and other intelligent topics about life in the former Soviet Union.

Pages: 1

The Rollback of Democracy In Vladimir Putin's Russia
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: wchever

Interesting article in the Washington Post;

The Rollback of Democracy In Vladimir Putin's Russia

news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&e=2&u=
/washpost/20050607/ts_washpost/the_rollback_of_democracy_in_vladimir_putin_s_russ ia

I'd like to get some perspectives from people who live there or know something about this topic.

Thanks in advance!

Posted by: Pin Boy

the link does not work

Posted by: wchever

I can't get it to work regardless of format. Maybe it's just too long.

Use this;
http://www.chever.org/redirect.html

Posted by: Pin Boy

it worked and well worth the time to read...hard to fathom that people can conduct themselves in such ways and be so ruthless...

pb

Posted by: vanir

I don't understand. The CIS is a "democratic communism" is it?
Whilst socialism is an economic and not political devotion, and democracy a political and not economic state of affairs, communism is a political bend of a socialist (economic) state.
Put simply the terms are contradictory.

As far as I have heard, politically the CIS are an independant communist commonwealth developing capitalist economic interests (speculatively to open European trade without former NATO sanctions over satellite amalgamations, ie. without having to conquer political territories in order to make trade profits in Moscow, I think the genocides were starting to annoy people). Apparently they're having some troubles with criminal opportunism during the transition. And of course "everybody's" a rogue state now.

But self contradictory political ideals are apparently nothing new. In Australia I noticed there is a "democratic socialist party" listed. You all have the right to have no individual rights.
The English Commonwealth is governed by a "democratic monarchy." You all chose to devote parliamentary powers of state by being forced to vote. The major parties then reserve the right to trade in those votes for individual policy manoeuvring.
And Americans have the Republican (a constitutional republic is promoted by a democratic party, whether the one available is a good one I cannot say).

But mostly I think the popularist media terming of "Soviet steps towards democracy" are more an effort to rationalise the institution of an independant commonwealth to the territories of a communist state.
Could democracy evolve in this political environment? Absolutely. Could fascism? Yes. And I understand (not in the least from the article in the link provided), an element of totalitarianism still hangs in the air.

I find it an inept description that "democracy has turned back in Russia," however since it's not there to begin with. That's not a bad thing, it's a different cultural view and personally I find a more traditional thinking, honourably intentioned society a refreshing ideal.
Not to say that any nation may or may not have achieved this.

Posted by: Cheburashka

I'm not the biggest fan of the Washington Post. They have more spin on their articles than my dryer does. Take their "subjective journalism" with a grain of salt.

Posted by: wavetossed

That whole article sounds a lot like a typical expose of an American president. It just goes to show that what is happening in Russia today is not much different from what happens in any western democracy.

The very fact that all this information is available to write about shows how open Russia is compared to the Soviet Union.

Quite frankly, Putin has done an amazing job considering that the state of the legal/political structures in Russia is comparable to the USA before the Civil War and the economy in Russia is comparable to the USA in the late 1940's. The whole states' rights issue that was sealed by the Civil War still exists in Russia. They don't have centuries of case law developed yet. Their economy was severely damaged by the aging communist leaders of the 70s and 80s followed by the ham-fisted actions of Eltsin.

And yet, in the midst of all that, Putin has managed to steer a steady course, never annoying any faction too much, putting a lid on problems quickly so they don't spiral out of control, and making things better, bit by bit.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Introducing democracy into Russia, a country that really only knew autocratic rule, would mean disaster, chaos and anarchy.

Posted by: wavetossed

You know, I don't know why I bother staying in this forum when you continually pop up and add one of your racist and jingoistic comments that NEVER add anything to the conversation and only serve to leave a bad taste in people's mouths.

If this forum were a dinner party at Khashyar's house I would probably end up stabbing you with my steak knife or stuffing brown rice and lentils down your throat until you could croak no more.

I'm surprised that Khashyar tolerates you spewing your racist garbage throughout his site. Perhaps he, like you, feels that ******s need to be kept in their place.

Posted by: wavetossed

In case anyone wonders what those stars mean, I said n i g g e r s. Editing out certain words does not stop people from encoding the same sentiment in other terms.

Posted by: BradIL

wavetossed you are vile and offensive.

No surprise from someone who loathes Americans so much.

Address Pawel's point that Russia's history shows very little devotion to principles of personal liberty, government chartered to encourage personal achievement instead of trying to manage it.

Posted by: wavetossed

Why is it that this forum tolerates Pawel's racist comments about Russians and about American Indians?

Is it because this board is run by Americans, a people with a long history of racist treatment of native peoples, n i g g e r s, and now, Russians?

How else do you explain that fact that the board tolerates the presence of Pawel's constant stream of racist remarks?

I happen to like Russia, Russian culture and the many Russian people that I have met on my 3 trips in their country. The fact that their country is still feeling its way after generations of Communist totalitarianism, does *NOT* mean that Americans have nothing to learn there.

On the contrary, Americans could learn a lot from the Russians and one of the foremost things to learn is racial tolerance.

Posted by: Pin Boy

i generally consider pawel's comments coming from a polish native perspective's, and not an american's. it seems that he has, possibly justified, a pent up dislike for russia considering its history with his mother country poland. i certainly don't see his posts as having a racist streak, more like a bad taste in his mouth for russian/polish historical relations and events.

pin boy

Posted by: BradIL

EXCELLENT post Pin Boy!

wavetossed... you are wavering between individual guilt and collective guilt. Part and parcel of the techniques used by some disciples of the American political left. You even hurl a racial epithet, that is despised by many, in order to shame an opponent.

Free speech can offend, that's in fact, the nature of FREE SPEECH! You can demonstrate the tolerance you want others to revere. Pawel's posts won't kill you.

But you avoid responding to Pawel's points--- which even he would welcome.

I'm sorry you feel guilty for your success in the west (wherever you live), and look upon Russians and those in the east with pity. It doesn't mean the rest of us are required to feel guilty about the level of lifestyle we have achieved.

I'm glad you have developed a deep fondness for the Russians you have met--- wonderful. I'm sure much of the world can learn much from Russian culture.

Russia could also learn a lot from America and others in the west, and America seems to be getting along pretty good these days.

It seems that Russia/Russians have a few basic questions they need to answer:

1) Governments are instituted to protect the rights of the governed... OR NOT?

2) Governments are duty bound to observe certain guaranteed civil rights of the governed... OR NOT?

3) Governments are duty bound to respect and protect the private property of the governed... OR NOT?

4) Although majorities rule, minorities have important rights that even majorities must respect and protect... OR NOT?

That's for starters! Simply avoiding answering these questions does not make criticism, suspicion, or skepticism bigoted, racist, or unfair.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Basically, that sums it all up. Thanks for all your support guys. Wavetossed - you have to address the issue and think about what is being said. The only tradition of some sort of democratic or semi-democratic rule that Russia has was the old Novogrod republic (erased by Moscow in the 1480's) and the Provisional Gvt in 1917 - deposed by the enemies of civilization - bolsheviks.

The Russian people don't even really want democracy. Recently 55 % of Russians claimed Stalin was a good leader and 45 % said they would love to see him govern again today if this was a possibility .... please draw your own conclusions.

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by wavetossed
You know, I don't know why I bother staying in this forum when you continually pop up and add one of your racist and jingoistic comments that NEVER add anything to the conversation and only serve to leave a bad taste in people's mouths.

Wavetossed,
If you were to ask my wife her opinion, it would agree with Pawel's! (including his most recent post) You cannot accuse her of being racist as she is a Russian citizen

Personally I agree with him as well! You really need to understand Russians before you can even comment intelligently, which you obviously don't.

Quote:

originally posted by Brad_Il
It seems that Russia/Russians have a few basic questions they need to answer:

1) Governments are instituted to protect the rights of the governed... OR NOT?
Governments are instituted to point the governed in a common direction

2) Governments are duty bound to observe certain guaranteed civil rights of the governed... OR NOT?
which civil rights will be guaranteed is up for discussion

3) Governments are duty bound to respect and protect the private property of the governed... OR NOT?
One of the biggest stumbling blocks between the western and eastern models of government. American law is based almost solely on the concept of private property, not so in the FSU

4) Although majorities rule, minorities have important rights that even majorities must respect and protect... OR NOT?
ehh......not so much

Russia will NEVER succeed with the american model of "democracy". Until they iron out the wrinkles in their own "brand" of representative republic, they will flounder. Putin has done an excellent job to this point. Many have criticized the seisure of private television interests in Russia and the restucturing of how the regional "governers" are placed in office. If you understand the amount of corruption throughout Russia you would also understand why both of these moves were required to insure the future of the country.

Quote:

Originally posted by wavetossed
On the contrary, Americans could learn a lot from the Russians and one of the foremost things to learn is racial tolerance.

ROFLMFAO!!

You ARE joking, right?

Posted by: wchever

"3) Governments are duty bound to respect and protect the private property of the governed... OR NOT?
One of the biggest stumbling blocks between the western and eastern models of government. American law is based almost solely on the concept of private property, not so in the FSU"

Anyone paid attention to the Supreme Court lately?!

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I have - and ... OUCH ! Such a move against private property on American soil really makes one think.

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally posted by Pawel_PL.USA: The Russian people don't even really want democracy. Recently 55 % of Russians claimed Stalin was a good leader and 45 % said they would love to see him govern again today if this was a possibility .... please draw your own conclusions.

Pawel--- I also heard this recently and don't know what to make of it. I don't want to over-interpret it. I recall Jill mentioning that either, her husband Igor, or his parents, thought Stalin was a genius--- BUT--- moderated that view after watching a documentary on TV. I guess what I am saying is How firm are these opinions? Are they easily changed?

JimFL: You know I wonder what Lil' thinks of that--- admiration for Stalin, nostalgia for his type of rule, etc.?

BTW... Jim--- great answers to the questions I posted.

Pointing Russians to a common direction, and in the process, they could discover the nature of serving/building a common good? Funny and enlightening... good post buddy!

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by BradIL
JimFL: You know I wonder what Lil' thinks of that--- admiration for Stalin, nostalgia for his type of rule, etc.?

To understand admiration for Stalin, you really need to eximine the history. Most russians would agree that their gov't (whichever type) needs to rule with a very heavy hand, or the country would be in a constant state of chaos. Stalin grew up in very close proximity to Chechnia. He knew these people and understood them. He therefore knew that these people would not respond to anything less than what he eventually carried out. It's a tough thing for us in the west to digest, but these people are animals, and have no regard for anything but their own desires (Beslan is a perfect example that this thinking has not changed, even today). Liliya does hold a warm spot in her heart for Stalin, though she will concede that she probably doesn't know the whole story.

Further, most russians would also be quick to inform you that life in Soviet times was much more comfortable day-to-day than life is now. Soviet life was not as bad as OUR gov't had us believe. For further evidence of this, look at the fact that the Communist Party is still the 2nd largest political party in Russia, missing the top spot by a reasonably small margin.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL
look at the fact that the Communist Party is still the 2nd largest political party in Russia, missing the top spot by a reasonably small margin.

Kind of like the Democratic Party in the U.S.

Posted by: Pin Boy

give the Dems time...give 'em time

like maybe 2008!

pb

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL: It's a tough thing for us in the west to digest, but these people are animals, and have no regard for anything but their own desires (Beslan is a perfect example that this thinking has not changed, even today). Liliya does hold a warm spot in her heart for Stalin, though she will concede that she probably doesn't know the whole story.

Interesting comment, Jim! I remember reading Mark Taplin's book when he travelled in the Southern Russia after the USSR dissolved. I was really struck by the deep-seated desire for independence, although these new republics had very limited means to support themselves.

I guess its the whole tribal identity that is not part of the US culture, at least. Stalin was brutal, inept, but I guess he could get things to work.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by BradIL
Stalin was brutal, inept, but I guess he could get things to work.

Saddam could, too.

Posted by: tjt517

Remember that democracy takes time to develop. I do not think that we should give up on the hope that Russia can eventually become a democracy. At one time people would have been shocked at the idea that Germany would become the flourishing democracy that it is today. Also things have not gone well for Russia during the democratic experiment. America and the IMF made mistakes in giving Russia bad economic policy advice.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Guys, the bottom line is that Russians (and other FSU people) recall Stalin and the Soviet Union with sympathy and nostalgia is because that's how damn brainwashed they were for over 70 years by the lying propaganda served everywhere and all the time in the "socialist paradise". Goebbels once said that if a lie gets repeated enough times it will eventually "become truth" ... and in Soviet-occupied Russia various lies were being repeated over and over for 70 years. Think about it.

Quote:

Most russians would agree that their gov't (whichever type) needs to rule with a very heavy hand, or the country would be in a constant state of chaos. Stalin grew up in very close proximity to Chechnia. He knew these people and understood them. He therefore knew that these people would not respond to anything less than what he eventually carried out. It's a tough thing for us in the west to digest, but these people are animals, and have no regard for anything but their own desires (Beslan is a perfect example that this thinking has not changed, even today). Liliya does hold a warm spot in her heart for Stalin, though she will concede that she probably doesn't know the whole story.

Yes Jim, but there is a HUGE difference between various firm hand types of gvt. Russians and Chechens may need a firm hand, such as was the tsarist, but bolshevism-communism was something more than just a heavy hand - it was pure evil, brutality, blood lust and terror - and all of that, often times, just for the hell of it.

No offense to you wife Jim, but she did go to Soviet school and the she did go through the brainwashing conveyer belt that Soviet education was.

Quote:

Soviet life was not as bad as OUR gov't had us believe. For further evidence of this, look at the fact that the Communist Party is still the 2nd largest political party in Russia, missing the top spot by a reasonably small margin.

Ha ha, Jim - it was acutally much worse than the United States gvt had people believe. You can't ask the 60 million people that the USSR killed how "good" their life was under the regime. The fact that masses of vodka-soaked, brainwashed, semi-illiterate Russian peasants (aka Russian "white trash" and "rednecks") miss those times and vote communist is more like proof of a mental disorder afflicting many people in Russia. In Poland 45 years of socialism-communism made morons out of masses of people too.

TJT - several generations have to grow up and die in Russia before any sort of constitutional rule of law and freedom can flourish there. AND what is even more important - the Russians have to stop thinking like Mongols and start thinking like Westerners - maybe then a wider margin of civic freedoms will be workable there.

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally posted by ConnerVT:Saddam could, too.

Good point!

Posted by: Khashyar

Wow.... what a stimulating and tumultuous thread...

I think that I was gone on a couple of trips when this thread was busy.

I don't think that the U.S. can stamp American or Western democracy onto other nations with different cultures.

It is going to very interesting to see what direction Russia moves in the next 20 to 30 years.

Good discussion, gentlemen.

Khashyar

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

Most people I know, agree hat democracy most come from within a country and not impossed from outside. This is the case for Russia and for Middle East countries.

Russia is not there yet, according to both American or European standards BUT same time its not a dictorship with stasi police allover.
And as i posted for 1 month ago it seems to work a little in Russia. The parlament refused to change the law, so Putin can run a 3rd periode and my wife and family say that Ivanov is favourite to take over. (he the current sectraty of state).

To end. I incused Middle east. For about 2 months ago Saudi Arabia had its 1st election, locally and for 800 some voters. Its not much, but its a start and the Roya family did instantly declared it a succes and annonyed it will not be the last.

So there is good news from around the world. Not only bad news with teoor, disaster and so on.