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one in three young Russian women want to marry foreigner...
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Posted by: Khashyar

I was reading the news article online, and it referenced a poll that was taken by "Ogonyok" magazine:

According to a Reuters article, "Since the fall of Communism, the numbers of Russians marrying foreigners has increased significantly and a poll cited in respected magazine Ogonyok last year said one in three 17 to 25-year-old girls wanted to marry a foreigner and live abroad."

Posted by: fly4fun

It would be interesting to see the results of a poll of older ladies. Perhaps in the 30 to 45 range.
Perhaps it would be less due to family ties that have developed but maybe the realities that they face might turn it the other way?

Posted by: andrei

OMG that's total bullsh-t. The poll must have been taken among those that have profiles on mail order bride sites. One out of the three women, my ass. I wonder whats the purpose of those publications - to show RW that it's cool to dump your country or to show AM that Russian males are close to total dysfunction.

Posted by: PrincetonLion

It's interesting, how many of Russian men want to leave Russia?

Posted by: Khashyar

Andrei... I wonder what sort of polling sample that they used?

I know that many of Lena's friends from Mogilev have considered marrying a foreigner.

But of course I am not criticizing the quality of Russian men... I know some very good Russian men both in Belarus and Russia and in the U.S.

(Regarding Russian men and their desires to leave Russia.... I imagine that many people who are experiencing financial hardship might leave their country if they had a chance at a more comfortable life.)

Khashyar

Posted by: povlhp

Maybe this is right. But I guess it also depends where in Russia you ask.

My Larisa certainly wants to come. Her friend in Australia already went abroad. Her colleague very much want her daugther to go to the west and study / getting married, and they actually had friends that lived in Germany as a couple (and not speaking the language, thus not better living than in Russia).

So yes. maybe the numbers are right.

Posted by: tanya3475

Out of everyone I know personally in Russia, about 90% would love to leave the country because of financial insecurity...many women, though would prefer to marry a foreighner only because of attitudes of Russian men, don't get me wrong it's not the dysfunction, it's their ability or non-ability to treat women right

Posted by: Khashyar

I think that we can receive a good ballpark range of the attitudes of Russians who want to leave Russia by expressing the attitudes of our Russian friends and family in Russia, as we are doing here.

But, of course it's not scientific because perhaps those of us who have already moved to the West associate with friends and family who share some of our same viewpoints and interests.

I know that there are some very nationalistic and proud Russian families in Russia, who would never want to leave Russia.

Khashyar

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

about 90% would love to leave the country because of financial insecurity...many women, though would prefer to marry a foreighner only because of attitudes of Russian men,

Although if you read Russian forums, you will see that this is often not really the case.

There are quite a few women posting who want to leave Russia and simply find that marrying a foreign man is the easiest way to do that.

In fact, for such women (who are mainly interested in emigration), a RM with access to the US also seems to be equally (if not more) desireable. For example, there was a sad case on privet recently about a RM who won the green card lottery and it now seems that there is evidence that his new RW girlfriend (who suddenly wants to marry him) is only using him....And I personally know a UM (with whom I used to work) who was used for his ticket to the US (he was awarded a study fellowship), and who was then dumped by his new UW wife as soon as he brought her over to join him (adding insult to injury she even left him a note saying that she never loved him, she only wanted to get to America). PrincetonLion beware

So I think the two concepts of wanting to move abroad and wanting to marry a foreignor are really quite separate. Marriage to a foreignor is just the best known method of achieving the objective of moving abroad.

Also some women who are not primarily motivated by the possibility of moving abroad still on occasion fall in love with and marry foreign men. Of these, some remain in Russia with their foreign spouse, and others (probably the majority) do decide to emigrate to be with their partner despite the fact that emigration was not their main goal.

So my point is that the poll cited seems to be linking two concepts that are not necessarily the same. Marrying a foreignor does not necessarily mean that a RW wants to move abroad, and wanting to move abroad does not always mean that a RW specifically wants to marry a foreignor (other than as a means to an end).

Further I will add that of the Russians (both men and women) that I personally know, the vast majority are NOT interested in moving abroad. Perhaps the poll results are influenced by the (young) age group questioned....

Posted by: Khashyar

It's good to have your insight on this, Jill... Thanks.

Khashyar

(P.S.: I wonder what percentage of Russian women who are wanting to marry a foreigner ar doing so MAINLY because of financial reasons? I know that this is difficult to determine. Perhaps we could understand this if we took a scientific anonymous poll of Russian women who are moving or wanting to move abroad and marry Western men.....)

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
Although if you read Russian forums, you will see that this is often not really the case.

There are quite a few women posting who want to leave Russia and simply find that marrying a foreign man is the easiest way to do that.

That kind of paints a bleak picture

and it only seems to reinforce the stereotype of women wanting to "escape".

I think, perhaps, it may be that certain forums tend to attract certain people. As a result, the results of the poll may be skewed and not very objective or clear.

Nevertheless, it seems quite sad.......

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

That kind of paints a bleak picture and it only seems to reinforce the stereotype of women wanting to "escape".

Oh, but don't get me wrong--I don't think this is the majority of RW, or even the majority of RW who eventually marry AM. But there are such people who are so interested in moving abroad that they are willing to do anything. And hence green card scammers and the like (again, not the majority, but they do exist).

My point was that in such cases, the desire to move abroad is not the same as the desire to marry a foreignor (and hence, as Tanya asserts, the rejection of RM).

Of course a RW who marries a foreignor may not be motivated by her chances to move abroad, but simply by the most pure, selfless of motives. And again, in this case, the two concepts (moving abroad and marrying to foreign) are also separated.

Quote:

I think, perhaps, it may be that certain forums tend to attract certain people.

Defintely true. Although, for the record, I am not referring to sites geared toward RW looking for foreign men. I am referring to various general Russian forums where a variety of issues are discussed. Which is part of my point. I have seen some general conversations about emigration, where the idea of marrying a foreign man was discussed simply as a means to an end and nothing more.

I remember one in particular that made me very sad. (Although this was on a Ukrainian forum). The woman wrote saying that she is married to a very wonderful (Ukrainian) man. He is intelligent, has a good a job, and treats her like gold. However, she has dreamed of living in the US since childhood. Recently she met a foreign businessmen in Kiev and had gone out on a few dates with him. Before his departure, he offerred to file a K-1, bring her to the US, and marry her. So the dillemma she posted to the forum members was this: should she leave her wonderful husband whom she loves (and she said that she does really love him) in order to marry a near stranger and realize her lifelong dream of emigration?

The reponses were split about 50/50

So such attitudes do exist.....

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
I remember one in particular that made me very sad. (Although this was on a Ukrainian forum). The woman wrote saying that she is married to a very wonderful (Ukrainian) man. He is intelligent, has a good a job, and treats her like gold. However, she has dreamed of living in the US since childhood. Recently she met a foreign businessmen in Kiev and had gone out on a few dates with him. Before his departure, he offerred to file a K-1, bring her to the US, and marry her. So the dillemma she posted to the forum members was this: should she leave her wonderful husband whom she loves (and she said that she does really love him) in order to marry a near stranger and realize her lifelong dream of emigration?

But that truly is NOT love.... I mean if she is supposedly happy and her husband is so wonderful then I would think that her [supposed] love would come first.

Instead she is opting to go to some unknown land with a man she doesn't know well and really doesn't love all for the sake "living abroad"...

Is her life really that bad?

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Instead she is opting to go to some unknown land with a man she doesn't know well and really doesn't love all for the sake "living abroad"...

Is her life really that bad?

That I couldn't tell you. But I believe you remember that infamous poll from RWA.....(Asking RW whether or not they really loved their foreign fiances when they married them). Again, I will emphasize that I personally do NOT believe that this reflects the attitude of most RW. But it does reflect the attitude of some...

Quote:

I wonder what percentage of Russian women who are wanting to marry a foreigner ar doing so MAINLY because of financial reasons?

I suppose such polls have been conducted, but with varying results. Although, according to The Institute of World Economy and International Relations, the main reason for Russian emigration abroad (both men and women, not specifically women) is labor migration. In other words, many Russians do in fact move abroad mainly for financial reasons. Here is an excerpt from their study on Russian Migratory Policy (from 2004):

Quote:

The number of Russian citizens leaving the country peaked in 1992 at over 673,000 and has since reduced steadily, with 107,000 leaving in 2002... In the first half of the 1990s, more than half of the emigration flow consisted of Germans, Russians accounted for a quarter, while Jews made up 13 to 16 percent. Since that time, the proportion of Russians has steadily increased.

In the second half of the 1990s, Russian labor emigration coincided more and more with trends of international labor migration: to the countries of Western Europe (primarily Germany) and North America. The increased proportion of scientists, qualified medical staff, technical workers, programmers and potential specialists (postgraduate students, students, and interns) in this emigration is very negative for Russia. According to available data, these categories make up about one third of all emigrants, and experts reckon that the Russian �brain drain� is costing it $45 billion per year, which is vital to the national economy. Moreover, almost 90 percent of Russian emigrants find work abroad independently, which does not assume social guarantees for them and deductions to the Russian budget.

Of course, this is a somewhat different topic, as it does not refer specifically to RW. Although it is interesting to note that overall emigration from Russia seems to have significantly declined from 1992 to 2002 (if you believe their statistics--I can not confirm them).

Posted by: tanya3475

I do agree with Jill that many Russian women want to marry a foreign man to escape (which is financial instability), but many do want to escape Russian men (I am the living example). my only reason for leaving Russia was that there was no way I would create a family with a Russian man...unfortunate but true...in my opinion Russian and Western men are Soo different, so i guess it's just a matter of taste

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

It's called a deficit of national consciousness, that's all.

Posted by: sidney

Tanya, my wife feels the same as you and said it is even more difficult as time adds up. As an AM I felt some of this same here. The older you get the more difficult to find the right partner. I'm sure this is true for both genders. Many have problems that made them undesirable to me. Part of this can be the luck of the draw in that I was frustrated and began seaching elsewhere.
Sid

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
For example, there was a sad case on privet recently about a RM who won the green card lottery and it now seems that there is evidence that his new RW girlfriend (who suddenly wants to marry him) is only using him....And I personally know a UM (with whom I used to work) who was used for his ticket to the US (he was awarded a study fellowship), and who was then dumped by his new UW wife as soon as he brought her over to join him (adding insult to injury she even left him a note saying that she never loved him, she only wanted to get to America). PrincetonLion beware

By the way, Jill...
I pray you to reveal your secret... What is your nickname at Privet?

Posted by: loulou

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill

Marriage to a foreignor is just the best known method of achieving the objective of moving abroad.

as for me, the best way to get US visa is to marry somebody here( i'm divorced now). Recently I've met acquainted people who could take me in US to work as a babysitter with their son. Unmarried woman cannot get visa there. She should be married, even ficticious. Yes, I want travelling abroad, but I don't think that it should be marriage with a foreigner by any means.

Posted by: povlhp

Loulou, I do not understand that ! You want to go abroad, but do not want to marry a foreign man ?

Unless you are going to marry somebody, who can get you into society, and help you along, you will have a very difficult time getting a quality life.

Russian couples living in Germany are the lowest in the society. Pooor people with just as bad a lofe there as they had at home. So don't fool yourself and think things are better in the US. In the US in particular, they do not care about the poor, which can live on the street.

Western Europe at least makes sure you have roof over your head, but does not help much to give you a good life.

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally posted by povlhp: In the US in particular, they do not care about the poor, which can live on the street.

Loulou... don't believe this. This is simply not true!

If you were in America today... you would be surprised by all the assistance available for the poor. The homeless population in America defies description, that's for sure.

Posted by: povlhp

In Denmark, the poor people gets normal quality housing, and $600/month for food, clothes etc. (Refugees is an exception, they get less in the beginning).

I get the impression, that poor people in the US exists, some lives on the street, food is something they get from shelters etc. I have been in the US a couple of times, and it is certainly not a country where the poor are doing well, and many more below the official poverty limit than all other western countries.

Posted by: BradIL

The images you cite are television images, that's for certain. Your impressions are formed by the video you see on CNN, and other international TV news outworks.

The poor, excuse me- the low-income, actually are stratified in several different categories.

You refer to very chronic cases, which are very complex cases to understand. They are far from representative of the problems of the low-income in the US.

It takes some effort to go hungry in the US--- really!

The poor are not doing well? Well... depends on what data you use to form that opinion.

Posted by: povlhp

I am not talking about going hungry, or dying from lack of nutrition. I am talking about that there are many poor people (just like in other countries), that do not have much choice in life, and live on what they can get from others.

In the US, you can find the powerty guidelines here:
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/04poverty.shtml

That alone says thgere are poverty in the US.

This link:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p60-226.pdf

Says there are 35.9 mio americans living in poverty = 12.5% (2003).

Blacks has a 24.4% poverty rate, and white without hispanic only 8.2%.

Go visit some of the black neighborhoods and see

Posted by: BradIL

Fully aware all of this povlhp... the statistics are well known.

Regarding the racial slant you fling:

Quote:

povlhp writes: Go visit some of the black neighborhoods and see

It exists in the town where I live. I see this everyday. It also occurs in white, hispanic, and the neighborhoods of other races and ethnic groups.

Trust me when I tell you that the income required to be declared "low-income" in the US exceeds annual incomes of more than 50% of the population of many countries around the world.

This thread will fly out of control if we start debating this!

When you try to marry these statistics with the homeless, and food pantries (the video you see in TV news stories), the two are nowhere near the same. This is deeper, and more layered, than you understand.

Posted by: Skinman569

I want to get back to the subject. My wife, Tanya, when I asked her about this same issue told me that she had given up on Russian men. She also is very tired of the so called "black envy", this is where other people wish bad things upon you when you are doing well. I dont think it has anything to do with the financial situation, she has a good job and makes very good money for a RW, and owns her own apartment.
We have talked about me living in Russia with her, but I cant because of my children here. I am sure there are the bad apples that just want to emigrate here, but that is not the case with my wife.

Posted by: povlhp

What I am trying to say is, that if people think they will have a better richer life if they come to the US o Europe, then they will get disappointed.

I am also one of the men that would move to Russia if necessary.

Posted by: Khashyar

I personally do think that there can be a wide economic disparity between the poor and wealthy in the United States.

I have worked tutoring poor ethnic children in the Los Angeles area, and I see how they have fewer economic and social advantages than do most "white" children.

However, I do think that any person who works hard and has goals can acheive what they want in the United States (and perhaps in Europe also, although I am not that familiar with opportunities in Europe.

For example, Lena has lived in the United States for not quite 3 years, but because of her hard working ethic and friendly personality, she has been told that she probably be offered a management position making $60,000 per year working special events and film premieres in Hollywood.

Lena and I also know of other immigrants in Los Angeles from all over the world who because of their hard work have achieved a great deal. We know of one Moroccan man who came to the U.S. less than 5 years ago, and has already been a manager at a prominent restaurant making $75,000+ per year, and now has opened his own restaurant in Beverly Hills. We know of another man who grew up picking fruit in California orchards and barely knew any English after leaving high school, but now speaks English barely with an accent and also is a manager who makes $70,000+ per year.

I know many other similar stories, some of which involving my extended family on my father's side who recently immigrated to the United States and either have started their own successful business, or have received advanced degrees and are making a good salary and own their own house.

So, I think that a Russian immigrant has great potential to better their life if they learn the language of their adopted country and works hard.

Khashyar

Posted by: povlhp

Are you sure that it is not only mental constrains that prevents them for being wealthy in their home country as well ?

If you show initiative, you can also create a business in Russia, and get a good living there. Maybe not $50.000/year, but still get in the best 25-50% - I think it is just that when at home, they do not think it possible.

It is possible to start everywhere.

Posted by: Khashyar

Yes, Povlhp, hard work pays off everywhere.

However, I know that regarding Belarus, there are prohibitive government rules, regulations and taxes for operating a business that it makes it more difficult than operating a business in the United States.

Also, the mafia quite routinely expects special "payments" from business owners, which I have heard is also true in Russia.

Lena has told me that in general, it is much more difficult and relatively more expensive to begin and operate a business in Belarus and Russia.

Khashyar

Posted by: povlhp

Crime can make things more difficult.

here in Denmark, many immigrants/refugees has opened groceries, pizzarias, and other food places, 24h shops, and the problem with them is, that they do not pay the taxes they are supposed to. So whenever the IRS is visiting them, they get in trouble.

Now the IRS recommends everybody to get a receipt from the cash-register in all these places, to make sure the sale is registered.

We have bureacracy too, and the rumor is, that there is a "pizza mafia" selling the dough to all the pizzarias (most pizzarias are run by turkish people).

I would rather pay the police for protection than the mafia.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

By the way, Jill...
I pray you to reveal your secret... What is your nickname at Privet?

I don't post there...I just lurk on occasion when someone alerts me to an interesting discussion

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
I don't post there...I just lurk on occasion when someone alerts me to an interesting discussion

So, why not to join?

And there is another forum, my favorite:

www.ourprivate.net

I would love to see you there!!!

- � �� ?
(If you see "The marriage in Malinovka" movie, you know Papandopulo's voice...

)

Posted by: Jill

I'll definitely check it out, Lion. How could I refuse you?