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Are AW really uneducated compare to RW?
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Posted by: DavidC

Many marriage websites state that Russian women in general are quite educated. I don't dispute that fact. But I think it's unfair to state that most American Women are not educated.

Do people realize that America has the worst public high schools as well as the best high schools in the world?

Do people realize that America has the worst and the best colleges/Universities?

In many countries, only select few get to go to college. But in America, anyone can go to college, though not everyone gets into Ivy league or top schools.

Maybe it's just I but most American women I talk to or socialize wth, or do business with, are as intelligent and educated as most Russian women I have known.

Yes, I believe that every country has her share of dumb women as well as intelligent, educated women.

Posted by: Mr.H

Well....my travels to the US i find that your average person, man or woman, are a strange lot.

One minute you can be talking to a well versed and educated person...the next...hicksville...But i found the same thing most anywhere I go...Just I found it more pronounced in the US.

But overall, from my point of view, I do not think there is a huge difference on the average between East and West. And I think it is a little cheap for a marriage website to say otherwise. Mostly because they are not lumping a small community into a ball of something...but a community of millions.

It's like trying to describe a Canuck...you just can't

Posted by: DavidC

Mr. H,

In my opinion, average Americans are probably less informed and less educated than their counterparts in other countries.

I attribute the above due to the fact that world events/affairs do not affect Americans as much as people living in other country. So "average" Americans are not probably interestd in what goes on around the world.

I lived in different parts of the world and I traveled many different countries. I think people are people regardless of where you live.

For these marriage agencies to advertise otherwise, it creates many false hopes and dreams and a breeding ground for many unhappy unions among myriads of couples down the road due to difference in expectation and reality.

But I do confess that I am partial to Russian women as I found Russian women to be quite attractive physically (at least in my opinion).

Posted by: Mr.H

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC
But I do confess that I am partial to Russian women as I found Russian women to be quite attractive physically (at least in my opinion).

I must agree to this as well.....plus....i am certain that the lady(s) I am interested in are very much behind the 8 ball as far as common sense and intelligence go.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC
Many marriage websites state that Russian women in general are quite educated. I don't dispute that fact. But I think it's unfair to state that most American Women are not educated.

Do people realize that America has the worst public high schools as well as the best high schools in the world?

Do people realize that America has the worst and the best colleges/Universities?

In many countries, only select few get to go to college. But in America, anyone can go to college, though not everyone gets into Ivy league or top schools.

Maybe it's just I but most American women I talk to or socialize wth, or do business with, are as intelligent and educated as most Russian women I have known.

Yes, I believe that every country has her share of dumb women as well as intelligent, educated women.

Russians in general get better basic education accross the board, although as capitalism gets its way in Russia, this is slowly changing, since best teachers tend to go into a private eduction sector that not everybody can afford.
So the question here is more about affordability of good education than anything else.

Posted by: DavidC

Quote:

[So the question here is more about affordability of good education than anything else.

I absolutely agree about "affordability". Many suburban towns have excellent school systems as they have very high property taxes while inner city suffer from lack of money due to poverty of inner cities in most American cities.

And the good school system usually means that the housing prices will be much higher in that town as everyone wants to move into that town.

Posted by: tanya3475

I live in California, so i can't speak for other states, but what i've seen around here makes me think that American education system leaves much to be desired...My husband has two children (one is in high school and the other is in middle school), they both get really good grades, but if they had to study what we did in Russia, their levels would have dropped down to 5th grade

what subjects do kids take in schools here? i peeked into a grade 8 textbook Math and was shocked (we did study this in grade 5)...plus they don't have geography in schools here (or am i mistaken), but Americans do tend to be very little educated in world's geography (unless they travel alot) and tend to think that the US is the only country existing LOL I personally heard people around here say things like where is Denmark? is it in Africa? or something similar...well, from what i've seen around here i would say that generally Russian people are more educated (i mean general outlook)...Americans can know their job very well, but they read little (TV shows take over), so their outlook is pretty limited

Posted by: Mr.H

Well...i know my conterpart(s) in the US are generally a backward lot. But hey, they sure know how to follow orders when you give 'em out.

I did meet one tho that transferred to Russia (Siberia) for a bit. He considered our Russian drivers to be nearly insane and the Canadian staff nearly worked him to death.

I think he would rather transfer back home to this:

Posted by: tanya3475

As far as the insanity of Russian drivers goes, it is Very true

Posted by: Pin Boy

tanya,

you have a pretty accurate view of america and american students and schools. it is very unfortuante. schools are in the business of fund raising and entertaining. everything else is secondary. just my opinion. i'm a teacher.

pin boy

Posted by: inlove

I agree that in Russia school education is more evened out, so an average russian school student knows more from different subject areas, than an average american would. Here you can see all colors of the spectrum - from very good, deep education to almost non-existant.
My son is in 6 grade. Fortunately, his school is a top level one, so I don't have much to complain about.

American higher education system is much better in my opinion, because they attract the top world teaching talent.

Posted by: DavidC

On the average, America has below average primary (elementary, middle school) and secondary (high school) educational system. But what most people do not know is that America also has the most elite secondary educational system in the world.

Are most of you familiar with Phillips Academy Andover? Exeter? Milton? Groton? Lawrenceville? Hill School? Hotchkiss? St. Paul?

These are some of the northeastern Boarding schools. These are the best of the best where average Americans do not even dream about sending their kids.

Many of these kids end up going to Ivy League schools and many of the leaders in Politics, Economy, graduate from these schools.

I might be wrong but here's my thought on American educational system - or should I say, "elitest" idea/statement?

"Do we really need so many college graduates from top schools? Someone need to sweep the floors, someone need to collect garbage, someone need to work at WalMart, someone need to work at McDonald, etc. We only need very few people who need to go to top schools to lead America."

Ingelligence breeds discontent when the reality do not meet expectation. Maybe the American educational system is designed that way to keep "average" Americans dumb and content.

Just my opinion.

P.S. As for colleges/Universities, most below average colleges/Universities are quite laughable. However, when it comes to top Universities, not too many schools around the world come even close to top American Universities.

Due to better funding, American Universities attract top Researchers from all over the world.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

However, when it comes to top Universities, not too many schools around the world come even close to top American Universities.

Yes, all you need to do is look at a list of the top twenty universities in the world (you can find such rankings on the internet). They are overwhelmingly American. I think MGU is in the top fifty though. So we are doing something right....But A LOT of that can be contributed to better funding.

I do agree that Americans tend to be less worldly than Europeans--we are seem to be more insluated from things--so less there is less awareness of world politics, cultures, geography, etc.

And I think our secondary school system is really on the decline due to all of these "No Child Left Behind" laws. At least that what US teachers tell me....

Posted by: dakotaridge

I don't think the concept of "education" even serves as a valid measure for much of anything. It's a system created by people, run by people and perpetuated by people. The vast majority of world-changing inventions were produced by "uneducated" people who - based on results - turned out to be a whole lot more educated than most others. College is just one way to "get educated." It isn't the best way, it isn't the only way, and God only knows it isn't the most effective. It's only the most dogmatic way. I've known VERY few college grads to ever work in a field even remotely related to their degree - the exception being physicists, biologists, etc.; docs and lawyers. They're out there but the percentage is very small, which in itself speaks volumes about the importance and value of classic education. I see the same thing all over the agency sites: women degreed in highly specialized fields, working in fields that have nothing to do with those degrees. So it really comes down to what "educated" really means.

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
I do agree that Americans tend to be less worldly than Europeans--we are seem to be more insluated from things--so less there is less awareness of world politics, cultures, geography, etc.

Yep! It was a very scary thing to me that when the first Gulf war broke out, I was the only one in my circle of friends/co-workers that actually knew where Kuwait was and why it was important

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL
Yep! It was a very scary thing to me that when the first Gulf war broke out, I was the only one in my circle of friends/co-workers that actually knew where Kuwait was and why it was important

What concerns me is, why did you have any reason to know it back in 1991?

Posted by: dakotaridge

We know what we need to know in order to function. For as culturally inferior as we are, our military and our economy are superior to any other on the planet, so I would say we're doing something right, and the rest is irrelevant. Most Europeans don't even know what a wedding set is, or the difference between Cajuns and the Polish population of Chicago; they have no clue about who won the last World Series or the last Super Bowl. If we know little about the outside world it's because we don't need to know; we're that self sufficient (although not 100%, still more so than any other nation). In any city from Moscow to Rio, it's American fashion from head to toe that sets the standard for the average person, and I haven't seen any other nation land a guy on the moon yet - when we got there 36 years ago. The computer, the cell phone, radio, television, the telephone, rubber, nylon, kevlar, x-rays, fission, fusion, and most of everything else in use today came from America. Somehow I can't feel inferior for being too self-sufficient to care where Outer Slovobia is on the map.

I know the Brits gave us radar.................

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Its a well known fact that Americans score extremely low on standardized tests compared to most ofther countries.

The level of general ignorance in History, geography, world events is absolutely staggering.

I am shocked at how backwards most americans are when it comes to these subjects

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
Its a well known fact that Americans score extremely low on standardized tests compared to most ofther countries.

The first question I have is, who's doing the reporting? You can slant the outcome of any study simply by way of selective input. The media that we all know is 100% unbiased is the only real source that I'm aware of reporting this "fact," and despite its claimed seriousness, our culture, our economy and our military dominance suggest otherwise. So even if it's true, America's overall position in the world says that standardized tests are indicative of nothing of any real-world value. We become shocked at this statistic simply because we're taught for our entire lives that it's shocking. But I see no evidence of it in day-to-day life.

Quote:

The level of general ignorance in History, geography, world events is absolutely staggering.

Again, because these subjects are simply not of any real value when it comes to the general condition of life in America. I know of no pressing problems such as starvation, etc. that can be directly attributed to a lack of knowledge about Napolean, etc. Most "educated" Americans know as little about history as the ones they claim to be shocked over. Our schools still teach that Marconi invented radio. The U.S. Supreme Court overturned ALL of Marconi's radio patents on June 21, 1943, reverting them to Nikola Tesla (U.S. Supreme Court case #369) - and doing so only 165 days after Tesla's death. Most "educated" people have no idea who Nikola Tesla even WAS, beyond "oh yeah I've heard of a Tesla coil." He invented radio, neon lights, polyphase AC, and was even running a remote control boat around a tub of water in Madison Square Garden in 1898. Most "educated" people have more misconceptions about the American West, medieval times, and any other period in history than any of the "uneducated" low test scorers they complain about. Those who are looked on as "educated" simply have their heads filled with widely accepted b.s. and in truth are no more educated about history than anybody else.

How many well-educated Americans will you find at the gas pump wasting their money on premium fuel simply because they have no idea what that fuel really is? Just because they can afford it? Octane is a combustion inhibitor, not an enhancer. It prevents the compression stroke of an engine from creating enough heat and pressure to spontaneously ignite the fuel in the cylinder before the piston has reached the top of its stroke. Premature ignition throws all the timing off and dramatically reduces the power and efficiency of the engine (which is already low enough) as well as increasing wear. That's what octane is; that's what it does. And very few educated Americans have any clue about it. That's just one example among MANY.

Quote:

I am shocked at how backwards most americans are when it comes to these subjects

It's the ones who are "educated" who are typically far more backward, if "no knowledge is better than wrong knowledge" is any indicator.

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by dakotaridge
The first question I have is, who's doing the reporting? You can slant the outcome of any study simply by way of selective input. The media that we all know is 100% unbiased is the only real source that I'm aware of reporting this "fact," and despite its claimed seriousness, our culture, our economy and our military dominance suggest otherwise. So even if it's true, America's overall position in the world says that standardized tests are indicative of nothing of any real-world value. We become shocked at this statistic simply because we're taught for our entire lives that it's shocking. But I see no evidence of it in day-to-day life.
Again, because these subjects are simply not of any real value when it comes to the general condition of life in America. I know of no pressing problems such as starvation, etc. that can be directly attributed to a lack of knowledge about Napolean, etc. Most "educated" Americans know as little about history as the ones they claim to be shocked over. Our schools still teach that Marconi invented radio. The U.S. Supreme Court overturned ALL of Marconi's radio patents on June 21, 1943, reverting them to Nikola Tesla (U.S. Supreme Court case #369) - and doing so only 165 days after Tesla's death. Most "educated" people have no idea who Nikola Tesla even WAS, beyond "oh yeah I've heard of a Tesla coil." He invented radio, neon lights, polyphase AC, and was even running a remote control boat around a tub of water in Madison Square Garden in 1898. Most "educated" people have more misconceptions about the American West, medieval times, and any other period in history than any of the "uneducated" low test scorers they complain about. Those who are looked on as "educated" simply have their heads filled with widely accepted b.s. and in truth are no more educated about history than anybody else.

It's the ones who are "educated" who are typically far more backward, if "no knowledge is better than wrong knowledge" is any indicator.

I usuallly dont take issue with your views but Im sorry this one is just flat out there.

My information comes from various CEO's of large companies who are expressing grave concern about the lack of quality American applicants in the area's of enginneering, mathematics and the computer science degree's. Thats where the rubber meets the road!

Look, so you dont have a degree fine... but to assert that being educated makes you backward is an untenable, illogical arguement.

Sorry but there is NO excuse for even a high school graduate to be blindly ignorant of history and geograph... or perhaps you disagree with the say "those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeate it"

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

My information comes from various CEO's of large companies who are expressing grave concern about the lack of quality American applicants in the area's of enginneering, mathematics and the computer science degree's. Thats where the rubber meets the road!

If this is the case, then yes, there's a problem, but I still don't see how it's attributable to knowledge about history or standardized test scores. In the past 3 months I've sent out over 150 resumes and received 1 response, where I was again eliminated before any of my skills were assessed. So in 100% of the cases, in more than 150 of them, my qualifications as a potential employee were declared will total finality to be insufficient when no knowledge of my actual ability to perform the job in question was ever reached. I would say the problem is with the employee assessment process, not the general population of America.

Quote:

but to assert that being educated makes you backward is an untenable, illogical arguement.

I'm only saying that being educated doesn't inherently mean anything positive, not by itself. "Educated" is a fully ritualized term that has no real meaning. A guy with a Ph.D. in physics or law or medicine is very likely to possess far more applicable knowledge than somebody without this title, but on the other hand, those with Ph.D.'s in business or "arts" or political science typically have these degrees completely ignored by those doing the hiring and rarely work in their degreed fields, simply because their "education" is not applicable in the real world. Even if American hiring practices are largely backward, it's still a fact that for however our culture operates, the vast majority of degrees are not even respected when it comes to hiring people. It can help that you "have one," but the association is indirect at best.

Quote:

Sorry but there is NO excuse for even a high school graduate to be blindly ignorant of history and geograph... or perhaps you disagree with the say "those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it"

MOST people are ignorant of history - educated every bit as much as uneducated. I dropped out of high school in my junior year. I failed every English class I ever took. With respect to computer programming, I'm completely self-taught, which in every official sense means "completely uneducated." When the term "uneducated" is assigned to people, the only thing it addresses is how they learned what they know. What knowledge actually exists is never looked at. If it wasn't obtained through standard university channels, it doesn't exist. With regard to the nuts and bolts of programming today's PC hardware, I will accept any challenge from any person alive at any time and with maybe 10 exceptions in the world I guarantee you I will run rings around them. That is "uneducated" by definition. Not very realistic.

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC: Many suburban towns have excellent school systems as they have very high property taxes while inner city suffer from lack of money due to poverty of inner cities in most American cities.

David--- I appreciate that your heart is with funding public schools generously...

... but PUHLEEZE... the connection between student academic performance & the amount of money spent per pupil has been totally debunked!

You can find research on this 'phantom' connection in Illinois through the Illinois State Board of Education:
http://www.isbe.state.il.us/research/

You will have to hunt for it, but its in there. I reviewed a report in 1998 with the Illinois scores. Barrington Downs High School, in the heart of wealthy suburban Chicago, spending at the time something like $22,000 per pupil, ranked in the lowest third in scores on the standardized tests! OH GOD... I could not BELIEVE IT! Barrington was spending 4-5 times the average per pupil rate!

Meanwhile... elsewhere in Illinois (in rural districts- if that's a surprise)... school districts only spending $2,000 a student had very high scores. In fact... some of their students were easily passing the general requirments tests that are administered by the Ivy League universities.

MONEY and STUDENT SCORES only have a loose connection to each other!

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by BradIL
MONEY and STUDENT SCORES only have a loose connection to each other!

This makes my general point perfectly because it can and does apply to any thinking. People are conditioned via repetition to believe that a whole slew of concepts are absolute reality, beyond reproach, when in fact they are not. It could apply to any dogma on any subject. We hear things over and over, we never hear anything to the contrary, and with this as our only foundation, we argue against all opposition until the end of time that certain points are real. It's a situation that will never be completely eliminated because no person will have the incentive or time or resources to fully research every last thing that ever enters his ears. Earlier I used the example of octane because it's exactly such a case. We assume octane is some magic substance that makes fuel more powerful just because we never hear anything to the contrary. We always hear it used in the context of "high OCTANE!!! It never occurs to us to question it. We assimilate the generally accepted meaning and we have no reason to research it further; everybody knows what it means.

No they don't. But they think they do. They've just assimilated the common (and misled) thinking on the subject.

A myth being widespread and perpetuating across generations doesn't make it any less of a myth. It's very similar to telling somebody you want to marry an RW and their immediate reaction is "oh, she just wants a green card." In their mind, this is the end of the discussion, it cannot possibly be any other way, you just don't see the truth (for reasons of any number of mental shortcomings you're suffering from), and there is nothing more to say about it. When you counter a deeply ingrained myth, people will fight you tooth and nail instead of stopping even for a moment to consider that maybe you're right and for 5,000 generations the rest of us have been buying into a myth.

Most people accept something as absolute reality, beyond any question, just by virtue of it having been printed in a book, magazine or newspaper, or reported as fact on the news. As long as it's presented in an official sense, with an official tone, it becomes reality to most people and on that basis alone they become incapable of even considering that maybe it was wrong. "Well everybody KNOWS...." That's it - no more foundation than that is required to establish absolute truth. It happens in the physics community every day, where it's not uncommon for that community to require 50 or more years to step out of its deluded thinking and embrace a contradicting concept (a contradiction to their delusions) that just happens to be the truth. I use that example selectively because they are the worst of the worst; they should be the fastest to adjust incorrect thinking but in fact they are the slowest.

We run on emotion. All thinking is only applied to support functioning within those boundaries. We decide what we want the truth to be, what we feel comfortable with, and we lock ourselves into presenting that as absolute reality, to the point where we'll destroy anybody who threatens that comfort zone. It was a forgone conclusion that Reagan would bring us WWIII and Clinton would bring us the next Great Depression. The last time I checked, WWIII hadn't yet started by the time Reagan left office and Clinton (aka Billary Hitler) didn't usher in any new stock market crashes.

Our declaration of truth is almost invariably a declaration of our personal emotional comfort zone and nothing more.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

The correct answer is YES - AW are less well educated than RW.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

The correct answer is YES - AW are less well educated than RW.

I don't think it's so cut and dry as that. I went to a US secondary school and, later in life, worked at a Russian secondary school. I have studied at both American and Russian universities. Based on this expereince I can make a few observations.

In terms of secondary school education, it seems that there is a much different emphasis in US and Russian schools. Russian schools emphasize memorization of facts. The students I worked with in Russian schools could tell you names and dates of history, could rattle off complex mathematic formulas with ease, recite poems as adeptly as scientific formulas....However, most of these same students couldn't write a coherent, original essay to save their lives. Any writing assignment, in fact, was more of an excercise in plagiarism than anything else. Analysis and debate of the facts that they so easily memorized was a foreign concept. They could recite many poems, but couldn't explain what they really meant.

In the US school where I studied it was quite the opposite (granted there is quite a bit of variety among US public schools, so I can't say whether mine was typical or not). There was less attention to memorization of facts, and more attention to analysis and creative thinking. And originality. And presenting your thoughts in writing clearly and in your own words (or providing citations for quotes and ideas taken from other sources). But I can say in all honestly, I SUCK at math and science and always have.

As for universities, here too I see rather different systems. In Russian universities, students tend to be fairly narrowly focused early on. When they enter the university they generally have already chosen their field of study and that's pretty much all they study for the next five years.

In US universities, there is a broader approach (at least at the undergraduate level). Often an entering student has no idea what he/she wants to major in and even once a major has been chosen, it is very common to change it several times. Also, most US universities offer a fairly broad core curriculum of required classes in various fields in no way related to a student's primary course of study.

I think both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. And therefore I think it is hard to say that Americans are less educated than Russians. The education is different. Although, as I said before, the big weakness I see in my fellow Americans is a lack of knowledge (or interest) in the outside world, including foreign cultures and foreign languages. That is one thing I would like to see a change in.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Jill's observations is ones that I have heard repeated by several Americans who live and teach in Russia. There is a much stronger emphasis on memorization of facts, and less on creative, original thinking. I have personally experienced this in the different teaching styles and approach when it comes to our young son's education.

Another aspect I've seen discussed is the purpose of Russia's higher education institutions. As it was said earlier in this thread, not everyone needs to be rocket scientists. There is also a great need for middle educated labor -- the accountants ('Economists' in Russian parlance), the middle managers, the skilled factory workers. Russia's good universities educate the scientists of the country. The remainder of the colleges prepare workers to be just that -- workers. Teach them what they need to know to do their jobs, not how to think beyond that. To think of being at a higher level is to teach discontent with the status quo. Not what the former Soviet system really wanted people to do. Although the old system of government is gone, the old education system is still in place.

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
I usuallly dont take issue with your views but Im sorry this one is just flat out there.

My information comes from various CEO's of large companies who are expressing grave concern about the lack of quality American applicants in the area's of enginneering, mathematics and the computer science degree's. Thats where the rubber meets the road!

Look, so you dont have a degree fine... but to assert that being educated makes you backward is an untenable, illogical arguement.

Sorry but there is NO excuse for even a high school graduate to be blindly ignorant of history and geograph... or perhaps you disagree with the say "those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeate it"

I think that there is little debate about the quality of college education in the US.

I am talking about the average joe. Who hasnt gone to college. The average high school graduate wether recently graduated or within the last 20 years... couldnt tell you where where Ukraine is on a map.

Just ask the average high school student who fought in the war of 1812. You'll be shocked by how many cant answer that question.

Just look at how many students have to take remdial english, reading and math when they enter state universities. The percentage is STAGGERING. Our high schools are graduating kids that are unable to read, write and do basic math at the Freshman level of college. If THAT doesnt tell you there is a major problem, nothing else will.

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
I think that there is little debate about the quality of college education in the US.

I am talking about the average joe. Who hasnt gone to college. The average high school graduate wether recently graduated or within the last 20 years... couldnt tell you where where Ukraine is on a map.

Just ask the average high school student who fought in the war of 1812. You'll be shocked by how many cant answer that question.

Just look at how many students have to take remdial english, reading and math when they enter state universities. The percentage is STAGGERING. Our high schools are graduating kids that are unable to read, write and do basic math at the Freshman level of college. If THAT doesnt tell you there is a major problem, nothing else will.

I'm not disagreeing ... just making a point that it should all be kept in perspective, as far as what it all amounts to. Everything you mentioned relates to the arbitrary, functioning social structures and systems created by man. This doesn't mean they don't matter; it doesn't mean they're irrelevant. It only means there's a limit to how important they can be. They were not handed down by God. They were made up by other people. At one time in the past they didn't exist. At some time in the future they won't exist again. They're arbitrary and temporary. We have plenty of laws on the books - all created by man - that are long since outdated and could not possibly be enforced in today's world. Socialism, communism, and dictatorships of every flavor are also systems made up by man. Everything created by man is like gold, money and diamonds - it's only as valuable as we all mutually agree to make it. So the ultimate argument regards a person's willingness or ability to conform to social structures others created, and there's a limit to how wrong we can make somebody for that. The majority of people in this forum can't write or spell to save their lives; many don't even know the difference between "their" and "they're," MOST still use an apostrophe for plurals, spell "definitely" as "definately," etc. What does it all mean? It means there's this system of communication called "English" that other people made up and some people had more important things to focus on than assimilating it. What people actually DO - and fail to do - makes no statement about anything except where their priorities lie. It says nothing about their actual potential.

Posted by: BradIL

The subject matter in this thread has veered back and forth, but there have been excellent posts here.

Quote:

Jill writes: I don't think it's so cut and dry . . . I think both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. And therefore I think it is hard to say that Americans are less educated than Russians. The education is different

I have never travelled in the FSU, but Jill, this confirms my recollections from some American students who studied in the region. In the late 1970's into the 80's, many students could get into the SU for 'language' training, or for some 'social' curriculums that were actually political in nature.

From the universities in and around St. Louis, it seems a lot of students who did study in the SU ended up in Kiev, Minsk, Leningrad (now St. Petersburg), and a few in Moscow.

Much of what I remember hearing at the time is reflected in this comment:

Quote:

Jill also writes: Russian schools emphasize memorization of facts. . . among US public schools . . . There was less attention to memorization of facts, and more attention to analysis and creative thinking. And originality. And presenting your thoughts in writing clearly and in your own words

The students who had the opportunity to study in the FSU, were able to 'sit in' on classes of other majors or minors they pursued at their home schools. Jill expresses PRECISELY what those students reported when they returned to the US. An aside, Jill it has been a long time since I've heard anyone refer to higher-ed. in the FSU in these terms, and its a little eerie to me that you use exactly the same terms I remember from about 25 years ago.

Journalism provides an example of the point Jill makes. I remember one STL student studied language in Kiev and also had the chance to 'sit in' on a journalism class. FSU students studied the same story structure as Americans, interview techniques, etc. But, just as Jill mentioned, they focused on memorizing the terminology that described elements of the story structure, how the elements fit together in the particular structure, how to use interview techniques to find the elements, but without much actual writing; in my journalism schools we immediately began writing stories. It didn't matter if the content stunk to high-heaven, you were being drilled on how to 'use' the story structures.

If you couldn't find success, my instructors tried to get a student to reduce, if not eliminate, a number of common (or frequent) errors that occur. It was writing-writing-and more writing as soon as you were introduced to something. You were also learning how to critically apply the techniques in the many situations you would encounter as a journalist.

The education resulted in totally different experiences for students studying the same topic, with almost the same materials.

That's why Conner's post is so astonishing to me:

Quote:

ConnerVT writes: Teach them what they need to know to do their jobs, not how to think beyond that. . . Although the old system of government is gone, the old education system is still in place.

Conner is it fair to add... the more things change- the more they stay the same?

Jill & ConnerVT... I don't mean to paraphrase out of context- please don't find offense in the use of ellipses. But both of you really focused on (what I find) are very revealing differences in the education systems of west & east. Well done--- BULLSEYE!

Posted by: DavidC

Quote:

Originally posted by dakotaridge
... How many well-educated Americans will you find at the gas pump wasting their money on premium fuel simply because they have no idea what that fuel really is? ...

Dakotaridge, I put premium gas because the auto manufacturer of my car suggests that. Actually, there is a BIG WARNING LABEL written on the gas tank top/cover.

Quote:

Originally posted by dakotaridge
... In the past 3 months I've sent out over 150 resumes and received 1 response, where I was again eliminated before any of my skills were assessed. So in 100% of the cases, in more than 150 of them, my qualifications as a potential employee were declared will total finality to be insufficient when no knowledge of my actual ability to perform the job in question was ever reached. ...

Quote:

Originally posted by dakotaridge
... I dropped out of high school in my junior year ...

I am sorry to hear about your trouble with getting a job. The process of hiring costs a lot of time and money. So HR managers/empolyers have to find the most efficient way to hire a new employee. It's not 100% correct but it usually works pretty well to hire a person from a good University.

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC
Dakotaridge, I put premium gas because the auto manufacturer of my car suggests that. Actually, there is a BIG WARNING LABEL written on the gas tank top/cover.

Then that might be a hint that in the case of your car, it's necessary ... LOL! But most people who use premium think they're getting an extra kick out of the gas. The engines that need it run hotter (by design) and have a higher tendency to ignite the fuel mix prematurely because of that, so they need extra octane to prevent it. But that was only an example. The point was people's overwhelming tendency to assume something is absolute truth when the only real foundation it has is that they've heard it from others all their lives and they never heard anything to contradict it. It's hardly enough to declare "proof."

Quote:

Yes, the country does function from day to day, and I won't dispute that hiring somebody from a good university will usually work out okay. But I think you could hire a whole slew of people without those "official credentials" and they would work out as well or better. Somebody who masters a skill without college typically shows infinitely more independence, tenacity, discipline, resourcefulness, and passion for the skill and will make a far more productive employee in the vast majority of cases. But nobody ever does that so this never becomes part of our conventional wisdom. Almost 100% of the people who attend college have it paid for by somebody else - mom and dad, loans, etc. 15 hours of classes a week is considered "full time" and you don't hear all the stories about college partying from people who were so busy studying they couldn't even put food on the table. They can certainly afford their partying so all in all it's a relatively easy time, in comparison to somebody who doesn't have those kinds of handouts (temporary though they may be, in the case of student loans). The important point is that the actual skill set is almost never assessed directly in the selection process, and it would stand to reason that this by itself would drive up the turnover rate and increase hiring costs dramatically. But nobody seems to feel this highly dogmatic system needs any significant modification.

Anyway I made it through the worst of times; my software is tentatively scheduled for release on June 6 - give or take. So unless it falls flat on its face - a situation that would require some real effort to create - then God willing, my need for a job will be history anyway, which was the number one factor driving this entire project from the beginning.

Posted by: DavidC

Dakotaridge,

Good to hear that your s/w is ready for release in a near future.

I own a consulting firm. When I send proposals for projects at Fortune 500 companies, I win more often than lose. I would like to believe that it's my good looks and charming personality

However, the reality of the matter is that I have a Ph.D. from UC Berkeley and my future clients usually assume that I can't be that stupid.

When I send proposals, I include my CV along with my employees who went to Stanford, MIT, etc.

But you are absolutely right. When it comes down to getting the job done, I have several employees who didn't have formal education but can get the job done, better than the ones with formal degrees.

It's just very hard to figure out who is good and who is not, just through interview process. And if I wanted to find out, it's just too time consuming.

And I wish you much success with your s/w.

Posted by: DavidC

BradIL,

I did visit the website but couldn't find the info you mentioned.
But when I did find something about Barrington High School, they had the ACT scores posted and it seemed higher than the other schools.

I am not sure whether there is no or loose connecton between funding and performance. There might be slight variation but I still believe that better funded schools will usually perform better in the long run.

Quote:

Originally posted by BradIL
David--- I appreciate that your heart is with funding public schools generously...

... but PUHLEEZE... the connection between student academic performance & the amount of money spent per pupil has been totally debunked!

You can find research on this 'phantom' connection in Illinois through the Illinois State Board of Education:
http://www.isbe.state.il.us/research/

You will have to hunt for it, but its in there. I reviewed a report in 1998 with the Illinois scores. Barrington Downs High School, in the heart of wealthy suburban Chicago, spending at the time something like $22,000 per pupil, ranked in the lowest third in scores on the standardized tests! OH GOD... I could not BELIEVE IT! Barrington was spending 4-5 times the average per pupil rate!

Meanwhile... elsewhere in Illinois (in rural districts- if that's a surprise)... school districts only spending $2,000 a student had very high scores. In fact... some of their students were easily passing the general requirments tests that are administered by the Ivy League universities.

MONEY and STUDENT SCORES only have a loose connection to each other!

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC
... It's just very hard to figure out who is good and who is not, just through interview process. And if I wanted to find out, it's just too time consuming.

That's the whole problem ... most of the time. In the case of software, I repeatedly offered to demonstrate my abilities by writing anything they wanted me to write (within reason). The fact that nobody took me up on this offer is pure stupidity and incompetence. It required zero time and near-zero effort for them to assess my abilities with near-100% accuracy. Which makes the point that once somebody is entrenched in a dogmatic process, no force on Earth short of a "higher authority" (the boss who never cares, that's why they hire managers) can pull them out of it. Hence, eternal stagnation.

Quote:

And I wish you much success with your s/w.

Danke!!!

As for success being attributable to your good looks and charming personality, it would be pure foolishness to believe it could be anything else.

Posted by: DavidC

Dakotaridge,

I usually offer a job to my clients' employees after the project is done. There are so many good people who can't move up just because they don't have a piece of paper (diploma).

When I go for presentation, it's usually done in front of CIO, CTO, CEO or the chairman of the Board. None of them are engineers/IT guys. They usually have MBA's.

So in their eyes, anyone who have degrees from top schools are usually better, though in reality, it is not always true.

After I get a project, I work with my clients' employees and I figure out who is good and who is not. The ones who move up are not the "good" engineers/IT guys, but the ones with degrees who play the game of politics.

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC
So in their eyes, anyone who have degrees from top schools are usually better, though in reality, it is not always true.

And the few left on the planet who still program in 100% hand-coded assembly - who by nature are required to know ten times more than the rest about how and why things work - are so overqualified as to have no hope of employment. So they end up starting their own companies like I had to, where they become the CEO.

When it takes more than 4 minutes for Outlook 2003 to respond to a right click on a folder on a 1.7 GHz Pentium 4 with 512Mb of memory, I know the state of the industry has sunk to an unprecedented low....

Posted by: DavidC

Dakotaridge,

I wrote in Assembly code when I was a grad student (I also taught Unix, C, along with other classes). For the past 5 years, I spend more time writing proposals, dealing with clients, hiring employees, writing reports and entertaining clients.

Since programs became too inefficient, too bulky and too "heavy", I find an easier solution. I bought a lap top with 2G RAM and a Pentium 4, 3.33GHz. I wasn't about to write the entire code on all the programs.

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC
...I wasn't about to write the entire code on all the programs.

I can't either (would you believe?), and that's why life is so difficult. The bureaucracy, the bloat, the overhead, it's staggering how it pyramids with every new release of a program.

Anyway when all you do is assembly and nothing else, you develop an edge for it, as you would with anything. Between the years of accumulated libraries I have and sheer repetition, I can generally get things done extremely fast. 99% of my time is spent fighting Windows and trying to work around its infinite bugs and misbehaviors.

And I can see how all this relates to RW...

Posted by: AlexRous

Quote:

from my experiences AW are more intelligent in the direction that a man would prefer a woman to be intellegent in.
All AW I met were that traveled here, so I suppose they were
above the average. However, working with AW through outsourcing (IT services) I think they are much more intelligent that Russians.
There were few RW i had fun talking to.
Russian women dont know economics, politics and world literature, they are poorly educated in arts etc.
If russian women are so well educated why most of them desires to be a housewife/
Educated russian women is a soviet stereotype when they made the whole feminist deal and females access to public education in 20s.
Now Russian education sucks. All 'brains' immigrated to the west, no one left to teach at russian universities except for academic losers who has nothing else to do it life. Most young professionals chose to live abroad even with a lower living conditions and extreme professional competition, but with a healthier society and economics.
There's nothing else left here except for oil.
(and me lol, but I am leaving soon)

Posted by: tanya3475

Well, Alex, all I can say is that I am a RW and live here in the US...so far i haven't found anyone among AW I could normally talk to...Everyone I met knew nothing about politics...as far as world literature goes...are you kidding me? they don't even know their own classical writers...they don't know geography AT ALL...all they talk about is shopping, their kids or nail appointments

in Russia i had better luck meeting and talking to smart women...but honestly, i enjoy talking to men much more

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by tanya3475
Well, Alex, all I can say is that I am a RW and live here in the US...so far i haven't found anyone among AW I could normally talk to...Everyone I met knew nothing about politics...as far as world literature goes...are you kidding me? they don't even know their own classical writers...they don't know geography AT ALL...all they talk about is shopping, their kids or nail appointments in Russia i had better luck meeting and talking to smart women...but honestly, i enjoy talking to men much more

You go, girl!!!!

Imagine what it's like being married to one of these gems!

Posted by: Jason

Quote:

Originally posted by AlexRous

Russian women dont know economics, politics and world literature, they are poorly educated in arts etc.

This is not my experience at all; in fact, it is the exact opposite of my experience. My lady is from St. Petersburg and she is far more cultured than most women I know in America. She reads Shakespeare, Goethe, and Dostoyevsky for pleasure, goes to museums regularly, and has attended the ballet frequently all her life. She can speak about American and Russian politics equally well.

Speaking only for myself, the ways in which I prefer a woman to be intelligent are to have the ability to converse about a variety of topics, to have independent intellectual interests, and to appreciate the arts. I live in an area that has one of the highest proportions of college-educated persons in the U.S., and even here I have found it difficult to meet a woman who embodies these qualities.

When she gets here perhaps she can be friends with Tanya.

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

In a nut shell.... here is an example of what is wrong with AW and the US culture....

So, after spending a wonderful day with my family (brother and his family along with my dad...) I come home and flip on the idiot box to see what is on worth watching (good luck with that!)

So I see this comercial. Its from the cable company adverising the lock out feature. A llittle girl is talking to her dad who is asking why he cant get this channel..... daughter says its protected. Dad asks can I watch it... daughter says well... you 'll have to get the pass word from mom... man calls to wife...

Says honey can I watch this she sasy no and walks out. of the room...

Now, there is a great role model of a man,. father and husband!!

Grown man, so out of touch with his family that his 7 Year old Daughter is telling him why he cant watch a particular TV show. He then ASKS for PERMISSION from his wife who simply says no, and walks out as though her authority in the family is unquestioned....

His respoinse.... he shrugs his shoulders like Oh well no biggie......

This is the type of crap all day long pumped into peoples heads !
I wanted to PUKE!

Posted by: dakotaridge

Rob,

That's exactly it. Our culture conditions EVERYBODY to understand that men are inferior, second-class citizens and inherently flawed in every way. This is conditioning, where it's not questioned or even thought of consciously - it's just KNOWN as a foregone conclusion. For the past 20 years, on every TV show I've ever seen, when there's a problem in a relationship, the man is 100% wrong and the woman is 100% right. Every show. For 20 years, and probably longer. It's so automatic that the writers don't even consider that there's an alternative called "balance." Sometimes the woman might be less than perfect! SOMETIMES?! On TELEVISION? GOD FORBID! Start dating AW - from internet sites or otherwise - and you'll get the same attitude.

The few of us who commit to finding an RW are the few who declared they deserve something better.

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
Dad asks can I watch it... daughter says well... you 'll have to get the pass word from mom... man calls to wife...
Says honey can I watch this she sasy no and walks out. of the room...
Now, there is a great role model of a man,. father and husband!!
Grown man, so out of touch with his family that his 7 Year old Daughter is telling him why he cant watch a particular TV show. He then ASKS for PERMISSION from his wife who simply says no, and walks out as though her authority in the family is unquestioned....

If you have a Russian wife - you will do exactly the same!

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by PrincetonLion
If you have a Russian wife - you will do exactly the same!

I thought Texans were supposed to have a little more b***s than that?

Posted by: tanya3475

[
When she gets here perhaps she can be friends with Tanya.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Im up for it

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by PrincetonLion
If you have a Russian wife - you will do exactly the same!

The best humor is sprinkled with a liberal dose of the truth!

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

The answer to the question is - depends on the women one hangs around and to which one is attracted. Believe me, I've known some very smart American, Russian, Polish, Mexican etc. etc. women and I've also know very dumb women from those nationalities.

BUt also let me say this - the average AW from Middle-of-Nowhereville, USA is probably more sophisticated and educated than the average RW from some isolated Siberian hamlet where, as my old man says, "the devil goes to the toilet".

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidC: I did visit the website but couldn't find the info you mentioned.But when I did find something about Barrington High School, they had the ACT scores posted and it seemed higher than the other schools.

David: I checked this link in the past week... and YEAH... the studies I cited have been pushed aside. It seems the ENTIRE research section is dominated with the No Child Left Behind reports. I am searching to see if I can find the report... these reports are used by a number of groups in Illinois; a superintendent's professional association, school board association, etc. I'll try and dig up a link for you.

Regarding Barrington Downs High: Don't use the ACT/SAT scores to determine its academic performance. The trap of trying to see how college bound students perform. You want to see the standardized test results for ALL STUDENTS, not just college bound ones. Remember... public school districts serve more than college bound students. That is where the eye-openers exist.

Quote:

DavidC also writes: I am not sure whether there is no or loose connecton between funding and performance. There might be slight variation but I still believe that better funded schools will usually perform better in the long run.

I usually loath arguments based on 'relative' comparisons... so I let me indulge in one immediately! This depends on what you are talking about. If I am a college bound student, and the school board has loaded all kinds of computing, advanced technology equipment into my high school... I HAVE IT MADE!

If I am a student aiming at a skilled labor... a very technical skill... that does not require a bachelor degree, but perhaps an Associate's Degree -or- apprenticeship program... and my school board has stocked the high school with the speciality equipment connected with my skill... I HAVE IT MADE!

Meanwhile... other students outside of these special circumstances are TOTALLY SCREWED!

As for being a teacher... in a union... I will get my paycheck from the school district ANYWAY YOU WANT IT. Whether kids pass, or fail, I GET PAID! There is nothing a parent can do about it. That's the power of a collective bargaining agreement.

Several years ago... Chicago jacked up its spending per student... I recall to something like $20,000 a student by the time a student entered the city high schools. The standardized test scores went up by a tenth of a point. They doubled funding and got just a bump in scores; I thought Mayor Daley was going to fall over when asked about it at a news conference.

I agree with you that generous funding can do wonderful things, but you have to carefully consider where you will spend the money, and who will be targeted to receive the benefits. Otherwise... you can easily spend a lot more and get a whole-lot-of-nothing in return.
The success of increased funding for public schools largely depends on your criteria for success.

Posted by: dakotaridge

If you look at the statistics anywhere on the web, maybe it's the real world the students are responding to and it really has nothing to do with the education system. There are fewer and fewer jobs available in America every day that require any kind of skills that school can teach. Most of the jobs remaining in America are either blue collar (taken by the illegals) or sales and marketing - i.e. manipulation and b.s. If a student is failing, it could just as easily be because the students have no incentive to learn what they're "supposed to be learning." There's no call for knowing it in the real world. If the students don't care, there's nothing that can really be done about it by the schools. And who says the students are wrong?

Anyway people just can't seem to comprehend that the entire system of education is nothing more than arbitrary; other people just made up. There was a time when everybody had to learn Latin in school. Our country's students simply aren't learning Latin anymore! The sky is falling! What is Latin anyway? A method of communicating that other people invented. So what. Another ritual, just like political science and business management. I hardly see that as qualification for declaring a society is doomed. We're simply evolving - out with the old, in with the new, responding to our changing culture that will never again be what it was yesterday. What was mandatory yesterday is useless tomorrow. I think the real panic is that the culture is changing at all.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

so far i haven't found anyone among AW I could normally talk to...Everyone I met knew nothing about politics...as far as world literature goes...are you kidding me?

This is a very curious statement to me. As I recall, you are married to an AM, correct? Do you have the same trouble engaging in stimulating conversations with him? Because as far as I know, most AM and AW receive roughly the same secondary and university educations...Perhaps your husband was educated abroad?