The Russian Meeting Place: A place to meet people and talk about all things Russian...

International Discussions about Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Travel, Music, Russian News, Ukrainian culture, Belarusian Dating, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kiev and other intelligent topics about life in the former Soviet Union.

     


                                

              

Pages: 1

Victory Day

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)


Posted by: heatherlatyshev

I spent nearly the entire day yesterday watching one of the greatest 'festivals' I have ever seen. It was Victoy Day in Russia. And for all the stories that Oleg had told me, I didn't expect anything like what I had the chance to witness. Oleg and I have Russia Channel One on our satellite, so we were lucky enough to get to view the festivities live. It was wonderful, a day full of stories, of music, of world leaders actually getting along. Even after President Bush stuck his foot in his mouth once again, he and Laura stood right next to President Putin through out the day. It was just amazing, no words can explain it, Oleg didn't even have to translate most of the speakers. The music was great. According to Oleg, most of the songs were songs written back during the war. I watched as many of the war veterans were brought to tears, strong Russian men crying as they sat alone being reminded of terrible times that some of them would probably rather forget. And I sat next to my husband as he cried, knowing that everything he was watching was exactly what his grandparents had gone through. They were who raised him and taught him to love his country, good or bad, it was still where he was born and raised, and although he does not want to go back, he still loves it.

The Victory day celebration included an artistic performance by hundreds and hundreds of dancers from all over Europe, they did a re-inactment of the war from beginning to end. It was very beautiful, even included film clips from during the war, including when they announced the beginning of the war to the Russian community as a whole. The day ended with a firework display that made the fireworks from the Millenium festivals look like child's play. It was breathtaking, even on television.

I know I learned alot just by watching this on television. It was sooo amazing. I just thought I would share this with you, and hear if maybe any one else got to see this and what they thought about it.





Posted by: Jill

I watched both the Moscow parade and the Kiev parade. But most of all, I enjoyed the documentaries they showed on TV all weekend--there was a very interesting one about the Battle of Stalingrad, for example. But the most interesting one for us was called "Between Hitler and Stalin" about UPA (who my husband used to refer to as traitors; however, after watching this documentary film, he has come to realize that there are two sides to the story, and it is acutally not so clear who was really fighting in the best interests of the country and its people).



Posted by: heatherlatyshev

I had noticed all the old war movies they had been showing, Oleg was watching them daily, but, unfortunatly, I didn't get to understand what was being said, so I didn't get the jist of them. It's okay though, not to long ago we saw an excellent documentary on the History channel about Stalin, it was extremely informing, and that was when I decided I didn't like Stalin at all. It is now a toss up on who was worse to the people, Stalin or Hitler, if you look at the death toll, it was definitely Stalin though.





Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

What is there to celebrate ? The victory of Soviet bandits over German bandits ? The enslavement of half of Europe ?

The Russians are also forgetting that they would have never taken part in the victory had it not been for aid from the United States and Great Britain.



Posted by: heatherlatyshev

Well, I assume that the appreciation of the American help the Russians received was evident by President Bush standing next to President Putin and his wife through out the entire ceremony, all the ceremonies to be exact. And the Russian community recognized all countries involved in the war. Even the leaders of Germany and Japan were there. It was an amazing celebration, probably would be even for some one that is still holding a grudge against a government that doesn't even exist any more.





Posted by: Cheburashka

Quote:
Originally posted by Pawel_PL.USA
What is there to celebrate ?


I would think that ANY WAR of that magnitude coming to an end would be cause for celebration, wouldn't you Pawel? Maybe a short talk with a survivor of Auschwitz or Dachau, or somebody who lived in fear in London as bombs fell from the skies would give you a new perspective. Is not peace always preferable?

Steve

PS: I have relatives who knew people in Dresden. They saw people and things melt from the allied firebombing. What do you bet they were happy the war was over?



Posted by: heatherlatyshev

Victory Day is a celebration, pertaining to the defeat of the German Army in Europe as a whole. It is celebrated in different countries in different ways. Even America has V-E Day, it just isn't celebrated as strongly as Victory Day. I love that a country can take so much pride in something they fought so hard for. You can just look at the wall of names under 'Mother Russia' in Stalingrad and begin to attempt to imagine how many Russian's, American's, British and every one else died trying to give us a better chance. I still watch the celebration my Oleg recorded, we watch it over and over again. It's just amazing how many men and women fought for thier country, and their lives and are still around to tell about it. They take so much pride in telling the world that they helped, no matter how little, to over come such a terrible situation.

You'll have to excuse me Pawel if I am lacking in the sympathy department when it comes to this great hatred you have of Russia. I understand that past leaders did horrible things to millions of people. But the generation that is here now, the generation you spend so much time talking down about, has nothing to do with any past injustice that was directed toward your country or your people. If I spent all my time and effort hating the people that hurt my ancestors, all the generations before me, I would not have any time to love the people around me now, or spend what time I have in this world appreciating all that I have, all that was given to me by my ancestors, by your ancestors. I don't have time to hate so greatly, there wouldn't be any time to love every one so strongly....





Posted by: Jill

Well, I kind of hear what Pawel is saying. Don't get me wrong--I do celebrate the victory (and my own grandfather died in the war fighting in the Americvan army), but I can understand different points of view on this one....The end of WWII also led to Soviet occupation for many countries...So it's not really a victory for everyone. According to a poll, in Ukraine, for example, only one in five people celebrate Victory Day. There are still A LOT of hard feelings between Soviet Army veterans and UPA veterans--they have never reconciled and likely never will. And I wonder how the Baltic countries feel....



Posted by: Jutman

Hi

I think something is passing by in many countries. The current times (60 years after the WWII) ended, its normal t look at other sides of the war.
In Denmark several books are publiced with the theme, not everything was good during the time, like helped 3000 jews to Sweden, but actually the government sent 38 to KZ in Germany.

And I understand something like that happens in Germany. There is grand movie called Das Untergang ( doomsday) where you follow Hitler mainly the last 2 weeks of his life. Because even Hitler was bad, he was person with feelings.

The time has passed ond its time to uncover some of the secrets of WWII.
I know one thing there was publiced in 1995-99?? 50 years after it was archived, but is still left out of the history books. Churchill would have surrender if the battle of England would have continued 24 hours more. And there many more to be unrevealed.

So thats one reason alone to celebrite, however I think a very important reason for this is that it can be the last round celebration where still many veterans are still alive.

I saw a programme about a british soldier, and an american soldier and finally a german soldier at the beaches at Normany. There was all 3 part of the invasion, and now meet these many years later. And they had a good time.
That alone is worth celebrite, we got smarter since than. War still exist around the world, but enemies can lay the weapons and become friends.

I mention the story with 2 soldies, so let me finish this by writing that about 90% of the german soldies was not nazies, they simple just follow ordre. Many was happy when they knew Hitler was dead.

This large celebration took place in Moscow. A small part of Denmark was actually liberated by Sovjet troops (9000) and in the effort to kill german they also killed some danes. However they stayed until april 46 and went home.
The interesting part here, is that Denmark was actually given to Sovjet at the Yalta conference, but the British Generel Montgomery has a different opionion.



Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by heatherlatyshev: Victory Day is a celebration, pertaining to the defeat of the German Army in Europe as a whole. It is celebrated in different countries in different ways. Even America has V-E Day, it just isn't celebrated as strongly as Victory Day.


heather Russia's Victory Day/America's V-E Day are the same, yes? Its been noted for years. Understand that D-Day, the invasion of Normandy, on June 6, 1944 carries more impact with many Americans. Jutman--- I appreciate the reference to the documentary you cite.

Quote:
heatherlatyshev:You'll have to excuse me Pawel if I am lacking in the sympathy department when it comes to this great hatred you have of Russia. I understand that past leaders did horrible things to millions of people. But the generation that is here now, the generation you spend so much time talking down about, has nothing to do with any past injustice that was directed toward your country or your people.


No--- I don't think Pawel hates Russians... he abhors the Communists who governed Russia for 70+ years. The generation of Russians he is critical of DID cause past injustices, DID unleash a mass rape of more than 2 million German women after the Third Reich's surrender, DID initiate a cold war with the west... on and on. All under the careful planning of Generalissimo Josef Stalin. It is this generation that is celebrating... and I believe Pawel is only trying to keep the festivities in context.



Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Thank you for the support Brad, I'm glad at least someone understands.

Heather, as Brad was observant enought to realize, I DO NOT HATE RUSSIANS per se. I do hate all sorts of communists, socialists and red scum - no matter what ethnicity they are or were. Let their bloody criminal record, perfidy, cynicism and hipocrisy suffice for the reason "why". ANd while I am not a Russophile and I remember all the nasty things Russia and Russians did, I don't hate Russians. In fact, let a Slav be a brother to a Slav, I wish them the best and I hope Russia and Russians will return to the road towards a normal nation and society, a path from which they were brutally derailed from by the bolsheviks and the occupying regime called "the Soviet Union".

However, the glorification of the Soviet Union and of Sovietism, coupled with negation of communist/Soviet genocide and a refusal to part with the Soviet past (the Russian Federation sees itself as an heir of the Soviet Union, not the Russian Empire .... right ?!) does not bring an intelligent Westerner towards much sympathy for Russia.



Posted by: Jutman

..and how many civil germans was killed by americans, due to the operation 'housing' (sorry, cant remember the correct word. but its where they bomb housed, so the workers did'nt have plcae to live, then no industrial production).

and how many girls was raped or so in Nam by americans.. until they got their a.s whopped by who ?? oh yes, the communist.

Sorry, but thats is simpel something happen in connection war time. Its sad, but everybody do it. Even danes, so its not something agianst american, as I wrote they/we (countries at war) all do it.



Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by Jutman: ..and how many civil germans was killed by americans, due to the operation 'housing' (sorry, cant remember the correct word. but its where they bomb housed, so the workers did'nt have plcae to live, then no industrial production).


Now we'll disagree on this point. I've read about this, and the whole theory is in dispute. Some workers were in fact living where they worked because housing was destroyed. Civil germans? That's generous. They were loyal Nazis one day, civil and unpolitical the next day, depending on what forces they are facing that day.

Quote:
Jutman also writes:and how many girls was raped or so in Nam by americans.. until they got their a.s whopped by who ?? oh yes, the communist.


Far fewer than 2 million, that's for sure. Always amazing how many prostitutes were raped, when the issue of free medical treatment, preferred asylum treatment, etc., came into the picture. North Vietnam did not whoop our butt--- we withdrew honorably. Hey--- the TET offensive failed!

Quote:
Jutman also writes: Sorry, but thats is simpel something happen in connection war time. Its sad, but everybody do it. Even danes, so its not something agianst american, as I wrote they/we (countries at war) all do it.


Sure, Brian, there are individual instances where soldiers rape. But, as with America, Denmark has a military justice system to prosecute and punish such individual acts.

But the mass rape of women, as in Germany, was actively encouraged and coordinated by the Soviet government. I see this as entirely different than individual acts.



Posted by: bdoug71

Quote:
Originally posted by Jutman
[B
and how many girls was raped or so in Nam by americans.. until they got their a.s whopped by who ?? oh yes, the communist.

[/B]


First off Jutman I was not going to reply at all to this post as I was not seeing it go anywhere. But all of this is going too far. I am an American Soldier as my father was before me. No one that I know or that my father knows has ever "Raped" a woman. If they had we have a code of justice in the military called the UCMJ. It spells out what will happen to a soldier if he rapes a woman (friendly or otherwise). I resent your accusations. You have no right to make an accusation such as that without any proof. Also the communists did not kick our butt in Vietnam. Our own political system did. So before you make accustions get the facts first.

Bruce D

So long and thanks for all the fish



Posted by: Texas Proud

I am not defending the brutal government that came after WWII, but if you look at the attached table I think you will see why they celebrate the end of the war...

If your country lost between 16 and 25 million people and had an additional 14 million wounded in a war, you would celebrate its end!!! This is not celebrating the communist rule after the war.

http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004619.html



Posted by: BradIL

Texas Proud makes a great point!

Soviet losses were high. The reasons behind those staggering losses lie at the feet of the great Generalissimo. But the Soviet people showed a lot of backbone to suck it up... accept the losses... and keep pushing against the Germans. The German 8th Army at Volgograd (Stalingrad) learned just how dedicated that resistance became.

But... there have been 2 excellent posts in this thread:

Quote:
Pawel writes: The Russians are also forgetting that they would have never taken part in the victory had it not been for aid from the United States and Great Britain.


BULLSEYE! Pawel is correct! Lend-Lease kept the Red Army provisioned during some dark hours. I read in 1992 they were STILL USING the Trumans (Ford trucks sent to USSR under Lend-lease) 50 years later. Amazing. Hey--- I read Berria utilized them to accomplish the mass deportations of some nationalities after the end of WWII.

Quote:
Jill writes: According to a poll, in Ukraine, for example, only one in five people celebrate Victory Day. There are still A LOT of hard feelings between Soviet Army veterans and UPA veterans--they have never reconciled and likely never will.


Its just great to have the American wife of a Ukrainian man posting in the RMP! EXCELLENT POST! Jill, I recall hearing a brief discussion on this subject on a C-SPAN program about 10 years ago, but I can't find any reading material on it. Any suggestions? Indeed, I would love any leads anyone has on the post-WWII era, from 45-53, in the Ukraine. Something that would likely be in a public library.



Posted by: Jutman

Let me end my contribution here, by writing.

Sovjet was an allied and paid heavily, by lost of millions. Especially by a not-so-good ruler.

And most of Europe appreciate the effort of America during WWII.

My final word would be: Let ther ebe peace everywhere- not war.



Posted by: Jill

Quote:
Why Can't I Enjoy the Eastern Front?
By Gary Brecher ( war_nerd@exile.ru )

The Eastern Front, WW II. Two huge empires fighting to the death on a battle line stretching from the Arctic Ocean to the Black Sea. The stats alone are awesome, the sheer scale of everything that happened.

Take the battle of Kursk: 1,300,000 Soviet troops with 20,000 cannon, 3500 tanks and 2400 planes facing 900,000 of the Wehrmacht's finest -- that is, the finest divisions of the finest land army since the Mongols went out of business -- who had a pretty fair arsenal of their own, 2700 panzers and 2000 aircraft. In one day of the Kursk campaign (July 12, 1943), thousands of Soviet and German tanks faced off and blasted each other point-blank, with each side losing over 300 tanks, while their air forces dueled in the skies.

This ought to be the ultimate in war. So why don't I enjoy it like I should?


There are a couple of reasons. One you can get from another key stat, civilian losses. Out of the 29 million Soviet citizens who died, 17 million were civilians. I'm no bleeding heart, but it's no fun imagining 17 million civilians getting shot, starved or frozen to death. Maybe it's because I keep imagining those Russian tennis babes getting killed. What kind of idiot would massacre girls who look like this Maria Sharapova? That's what I call a war crime.

To oversimplify a little, WW I was a horrible war to be a soldier in but not too bad for civilians. Ninety-five percent of the dead in WW I were soldiers. WW II was bad enough for soldiers, especially Soviet and German soldiers, but it was sheer Hell for any civilians who lived anywhere between Warsaw and Moscow.

Mobility -- that was the key difference between the civilian casualty rates in WW I and WW II. The more mobile a war, the harder it is on civilians. You can see that even in wars where both armies make a real effort to spare civvies.

Take our own Civil War. In the Eastern theater, with the Armies of the Potomac and Northern Virginia working each other over in a fairly small area west of Chesapeake Bay, civilians didn't get murdered in big numbers. When crops and farms were burnt in the Eastern theater (for example in the Shenandoah Valley), it was out of hard military necessity. But out in the Western theater, where war was a hit-and-run business, towns like Lawrence, Kansas were wiped out in an afternoon, with no man, woman or child spared. When you're only in town for a few hours, you have to win hearts and minds the fast way: by shooting them in the heart, or blowing their minds out the back of their heads.

WW I was an insanely static war, especially on the Western Front, with the armies locked into a face-off in huge trenchlines, away from civilian populations. Except for a few families unlucky enough to live in the battlezones of Northern France, it was easy for civilians to survive.

WW II on the Eastern Front was the opposite, the most mobile warfare since the Mongols, and just about as lethal for any civvies in the armies' path. If you lived in Poland or Belorussia, someone was going to kill you and your family, you just couldn't be sure who it would be. If those poor bastards had been able to see in 1941 what the next four years were going to be like, they'd have begged Dad to kill them all with a hatchet, then throw himself down the well, just to avoid the horrible suspense and get it over with.

Maybe it would be the Soviet commissars who killed you; they had a policy of killing all politically suspect civvies in regions that were about to fall to the Nazis. And to the NKVD, "politically suspect" could mean nearly anything; your hut was too solid, you owned one too many pig, you didn't name your first child after Stalin. Weirdly enough, in 1941 it was the Nazis who were uncovering -- literally -- "human rights violations" in Eastern Europe; as they advanced, they kept digging up fresh mass graves where the NKVD had dumped its prisoners as the Soviet Army retreated.

On the other hand, it was the Nazis who would kill you if you were a Jew -- or the ignorant Obergefreiter whose squad just rumbled into your village thought you looked like one. If you were a pretty Polish or Russian girl, you were likely to die too, after the German or Rumanian or Hungarian soldiers had raped you. The Wehrmacht also had a policy of summary execution for Communists, and a pretty flexible definition of what one was. And when in doubt, they killed.


The Germans killed for another Mongol-type reason: land clearance. The Mongols tended to kill people who were using up good grazing land, getting it all cluttered with houses and fences. The Germans thought about Slavs the same way, like gophers or some other varmint that was spoiling the land they planned on turning into thousands of blond, blue-eyed little clock-tower towns. Why not get the varmints out of the way while you had the ordnance on the spot? You'd be doing a favor for the planners from Berlin who were supposed to follow the armies, laying out the new towns. So they blasted the Belorussians and Ukrainians, even when the peasants came out on the roads with flowers, cheering the Wehrmacht columns.

That's what gets me down: those poor suckers thinking their saviors had arrived. You can't blame them. After Stalin, anybody else must have looked good. Especially to the Ukrainians, who'd been purposely starved to death in the early 1930s by the millions when Stalin collectivized their farms.

It's weird how nobody remembers those millions of dead Ukrainians. It's like they just don't count. Everybody remembers all the poor Londoners killed in the Blitz. You know how many English civvies died in WW II? Less than 60,000! According to my calculator, that means almost 300 Soviets died for every Brit who got bombed. But all my life I've been reading about them "cowering" in the subway stations as the bombs fell. I never heard a word about the millions of Ukrainians who died in Stalin's famine, and I sure as Hell never realized that 29 million Soviets died in WW II. Until I got serious about learning war on my own, all I ever heard was the "Battle of Britain" and D-Day, which were sideshows to the real war, back there in the snow in Russia.

Mobile warfare creates its own famine as it moves. It's a matter of logistics. If your army is in the trenches a few miles from Paris, the way the Franco-British army was in WW II, you can set up stable supply lines so your soldiers don't have to forage. The French poilu in WW I lived on endless tin cans of tuna and beans, carted out from Paris by tired old horses and even tireder old trucks.

But when the armies are fighting on a front hundreds of miles wide and thousands of miles long, with huge chunks of land changing hands every day, that sort of resupply is impossible. So the armies go back to the old ways, "living off the land." Which means, basically, getting food from the peasants at bayonet point. It's standard military practice, but it's not pretty: a squad breaks down your farmhouse door, grabs your baby son and starts sawing at his throat with a knife, screaming at you to tell them where your hoarded food is. Since those few sacks of grain and maybe a ham or two is all you've got to survive the winter, you don't much want to tell them. But then they start really cutting deep into Junior's throat, he's screaming, and you tell.

They dig up the hoard, and as likely as not they shoot you all anyway for making them go through all that trouble. If they don't, you have to figure out a way to survive the Russian winter with no food.

To go back to America's Civil War again, Sherman's sweep through the Georgia breadbasket turned the war mobile in a big way and introduced living off the land, and the "freebooter" to American warfare. The further his army moved into enemy territory, the less the rules of war that they were still observing up in Northern Virginia seemed to apply. Looting was taken for granted; if you had a pig or a chicken, consider it gone when his men showed. Burning was a real possibility; they burned all the "big houses" (plantation mansions) in Georgia, and when they reached South Carolina, the state that started the whole mess, they burned everything, from shack to mansion.

And I've always wondered if that other rule of war, the one against rape, sort of got forgotten on the way to Columbia, S.C. too. That scene in Gone with the Wind, where what's-her-name shoots the grinning freebooter coming up the stairs -- I wonder how often that happened and the belle upstairs didn't have a pistol handy. They wouldn't have talked about it -- the US in the 1860s had to be the most tight-assed, straight-laced place in the history of the world. But I suspect it was more than hams and chickens those bluebellies were grabbing on their way to the sea.

Another complication of mobile warfare for civvies is the fact that your home town might change hands several times. This happened to thousands of towns and villages in Eastern Europe in WW II. If you got along too well with the Wehrmacht, you weren't going to have an easy time when the Soviet Army rolled into town. If you lived in a strategic city like Kharkov (taken by the Wehrmacht in Autumn '41, recaptured by the Soviets in winter '43, retaken by the Wehrmacht in Spring '43 and re-recaptured once and for all by the Soviets in Summer '43), you were going to have a difficult time explaining to one side or the other why you were still alive and hadn't done the patriotic thing by dying under enemy occupation. We're talking about millions of civilians dragged into the GULAG for the crime of surviving the Nazis. It just sort of gets me down to think of.

The other reason the Eastern Front depresses me is simpler: the results. All it did was bleed the two coolest armies in Europe, the only really interesting armies on the continent. The USSR won, but left its best people dead on the field. The Germans lost for all time, vanished from history forever. And by massacring all those civilians, that ******* Hitler ruined the whole idea that there was a heroic life in war. I don't even understand what that moron thought he was doing. All these neo-Nazi idiots -- losers who wouldn't even have been let into the Wehrmacht -- talk about "the white race" -- well, wasn't every single person Hitler killed white? Talk about black-on-black crime! The Nazis were the ultimate in white-on-white massacre.

All it did was give war a bad name. All that was left when the Germans and Russians had bled each other to death was the Anglos, us and the Brits. All was left to believe in after 1945 was business, making money, that whole stupid boring white-bread way of life. My life.





Posted by: Jill

Quote:
I recall hearing a brief discussion on this subject on a C-SPAN program about 10 years ago, but I can't find any reading material on it. Any suggestions? Indeed, I would love any leads anyone has on the post-WWII era, from 45-53, in the Ukraine. Something that would likely be in a public library.


There is quite a bit of material on it, but it can be hard to sift through because 90% of it is highly biased in one direction or the other (not surprising given how sensitive a topic it is). Unbiased sources are much harder to come by--but if I come across anything, I'll post the info for you.



Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Jutman, it was not the Vietnamese commies that defeated America in Vietnam - IT WAS THE COMMUNIST FIFTH COLUMN INSIDE THE UNITED STATES THAT DEFEATED THE UNITED STATES IN VIETNAM !

Second of all, one can't just dismiss everything because "there was a war and such things happen during war". Why is it that Germans, Russians, Japanese and other Asiatics etc. kill, rape and plunder during wars while, for example, Americans and Poles attempt to refrain from such activities ?



Posted by: Jutman

Hi
There is a historical explanation for that. Basicaly most wars befor 20th centuray ended with 'free' activity for the mercaniaries*.

America did not have his division like Europe have/had, so this tradition simple not emerged.

* and Pawel i am sure to can confirm this or not. I have a wake memory of that Poland iback n the history was not happy about mercenaries and therefor there was no such pillaging after a war with Poland.



Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

You do have a point Jutman - but remember that during WW II the Germans and Soviets were pilliganing and killing in a truly Oriental fashion while the Americans, French and British behaved a bit differently.

The Mongol armies were not really mercenary armies but the whole social structure of Turko-Mongol societies was centered around militarism.

And yes, indeed, Poland never really employed or liked mercenary armies for much the same reasons as the Americans. The only real exception was the 1453 - 1466 war between Poland and the Teutonic Knights. It was a long war of siege and attrition and mercenaries had to be employed since the peasants had to go back home for the harvests ... or else what would the armies eat ? A whole group of Czech mercenaries that fought for the Germans also went over to the Polish side.



Russian America Top. Рейтинг ресурсов Русской Америки. Рейтинг@Mail.ru Russian Network USA



Russian Meeting Place Copyright ©2000 - 2008, www.russianmeetingplace.com and Khahsyar and Lena.