Ukraine and Russia - Differences - Russian Ukrainian Belarus Travel Music Woman Dating News

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Ukraine and Russia - Differences
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Posted by: Aquiest

From your perspective, what is the differences (advantages/disadvantages) in UW vs RW? One thing I've found is that flights to Ukraine are less expensive. What about language? I'd not want to spend a year learning Russian and then meet someone who speaks Ukranian. That would be like starting over. Do Ukranians speak Russian? Any other factors to think about?

Posted by: inlove

Pretty much all Ukranians speak Russian.. except maybe for very small villages in western Ukraine.

Posted by: Jill

Inlove is right...Most Ukrainians are bilingual and many speak Russian as their primary language--although Ukrainian is more common in the west (but even there most people can at least understand Russian even if they can't speak it very well). Although, there is a wave of nationalism right now (following the "Orange Revolution") and whenever Ukrainians start feeling patriotic, they often switch to Ukrainian

As for culture, I would say that there is very little difference between Russian culture and Eastern Ukrainian culture. Western Ukraine is a bit different, however.

I remember the first time my husband visited Lviv--he said he felt like he was in a foreign country. I think he experienced less culture shock moving to Armenia

Posted by: render

I think it depends on who you ask. From my experience present day Ukranians get VERY offended when people still lump them in with the Russians. They feel that they are a seperate nation and that should be recognized.

As for the language, Russian is still the main language with Ukrainian starting to gain a hold in schools and amoung the (forgive me if I misspell this) intelligencia, or poets and such.

But from the many people in Ukraine that I am currently speaking with and writting to, they will tell you that their cultures are far different from that of Russia's although some of them coencide such as Labor Day and Women's Day. But keep in mind that many of the customs and the culture of Ukraine was suppresed by the Russians who were trying to.......well, I can think of no other way to say this so I am sorry if I offend....... force the Ukrainians into submission to the Communist goverment. At least that is what I have gathered from my studies and from my coresspondence with Ukrainian friends.

Posted by: inlove

Unkraine has been a part of Russian Empire well before the Soviet Union came along. The cultures of two countries are very much intervined.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Unkraine has been a part of Russian Empire well before the Soviet Union came along. The cultures of two countries are very much intervined.

Bogdan Khmelnitsky. This is all HIS fault

Well, if you buy Hrushevsky's theory that Kievan Rus is a purely Ukrainian legacy (which I personally don't, but...).

And if you want to talk about language...Russian language laws were enacted in Ukraine in the 19th century (so also pre-Soviet).

And actually, I'm not really sure when you could actually begin to call Ukrainian a separate language (some still don't for that matter). Certainly, a dialect developed in Ukraine during the time of the Tatar yoke...but it was probably a few centuries until Ukrainian really became more than simply one dialect of a common Eastern Slavic tongue. Well, the nationalists have an answer for that, of course....But it's more politically convincing than linguisitically convincing (I actually read a book on this recently called "The History of the Ukrainian Literary Language"--very interesting, but very much written with an agenda).

Posted by: render

Forgive me for not explaining fully what I meant. When I said that Ukrainians get upset about still being lumped in with the Russians I was referring to the FSU. If I am remembering right it wasn't until the FSU took over that Ukraine was subjected to many of their difficulties, including the forced famine by Stalin and the terror of having loved ones sent to Siberia or killed. It also wasn't until the FSU that Ukrainian traditions and customs were banned, since the FSU didn't want them to have their own identity, other than what they gave them.

And for the most part, when the Russian Empire took Ukraine, what sometime in the 17th century wasn't it? Well, they were still left their customs and culture and their sense of who they WERE. And after time the Tartars and others who took over later on, in affect stayed so long and intermarried so much with the Ukrainian population that they in affect became Ukrainian.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll be sure to say what I mean fully next time.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by render
Forgive me for not explaining fully what I meant. When I said that Ukrainians get upset about still being lumped in with the Russians I was referring to the FSU. If I am remembering right it wasn't until the FSU took over that Ukraine was subjected to many of their difficulties, including the forced famine by Stalin and the terror of having loved ones sent to Siberia or killed. It also wasn't until the FSU that Ukrainian traditions and customs were banned, since the FSU didn't want them to have their own identity, other than what they gave them.

And for the most part, when the Russian Empire took Ukraine, what sometime in the 17th century wasn't it? Well, they were still left their customs and culture and their sense of who they WERE. And after time the Tartars and others who took over later on, in affect stayed so long and intermarried so much with the Ukrainian population that they in affect became Ukrainian.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'll be sure to say what I mean fully next time.

Oh man.. You are in a serious need for a Russian/Ukranian History 101 lesson.. Read something about the subject..

Posted by: Jill

Yes, it seems somewhat simplistic to say it was all the Soviet Union. You're right about the famine, of course, but in terms of traditions...Well, it also depends if you are talking about Western Ukraine or Eastern Ukraine--they do have quite different histories.

When you say that traditions were repressed, what specifically do you mean? If you mean langauge, as I noted, Russian language laws were enacted in the mid 19th century (banning public use of Ukrainian). It's almost questionable whether the Ukrainian language even existed long before that (nationalists will argue that it became a distinct language as early as the 11th or 12th century--but their arguments don't really hold much water--any more than saying people from Arkansas speak a different language than people from Boston--but this also depends on your defintiion of language vs. dialect).

Other than language, most other traditions are common to both Russia and (eastern) Ukraine. It depends who you ask, I suppose, but I personally believe in Kievan Rus as the common origin (some nationalists don't accept that, however). I also believe (again, different opinions depending on your politics), that Ukraine never really existed as such until Hrushevsky essentially invented it. They never really had a distinct sense of who they were as Ukrainians. Actually, up until the mid 19th century or so, there was absolutely no contradiction in calling yourself both a Ukrainian and a Russian. Ukrainian was nothing more than a regional identity--as someone who lives in Moscow can call themselves both a Muscovite and a Russian. Look at Gogol--the great "Russian" writer from....Poltava Oblast.

All you ever really had there were Cossacks who, in fact, were generally loyal to the Russian Czar (well, except for Mazepa, of course--but during that many other cossacks turned against him). The cossacks were repressed from time to time (Catherine was pretty down on them and, in the case, of Mazepa, his buddy Peter started interfering in Cossack affairs)--but are Cossacks really Ukrainian, or something else? Nationalists usually argue that they were and that the Hetmanate gives precedence for Ukrainian soveriegnty (well, I think this is Hrushevsky again

). And they seem to be all Shevchenko really ever wrote about

But that's a tricky question because first, as I said, they were generally loyal to Russia, and second, are Cossack traditions (which were occassionally repressed under the czars) really Ukrainian traditions per se? Maybe. At any rate, my husband has some good Cossack stories--his father's family comes from the Zaporizhzhya Sich. Interesting, but maybe not much more.

And there's religion. But again, it depends if you are talking about Eastern or Western Ukraine and religion was repressed everywhere, so I don't know how strong an argument that is--although many people do make it. But as for the east--whether you are talking about the Kiev patriarchy or Moscow patriarchy--frankly, it has nothing to do with tradition--it's politics.

So I think it would be helpful if you specify what traditions you feel are distinctly Ukrainian (and not Russian)--that's where I'm having trouble following. And it's a fairly controversial topic to begin with

Posted by: render

Let me read through the information I have again and get back to you. Apparently I am remembering it wrong and I hate when I do that. So give me a day or so and I will post again.

Posted by: Jill

Well, it may not be that you're remebering it wrong. This is just a highly debatable subject and has been for about a century or so

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