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"Old ways die hard" or mother knows best :)
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Posted by: searcher

Alright, so how many of you still have friends or family that still think you are "making a mistake"

It seems that, of course, older people (especially mothers) hold onto old ideas or stereotypes despite their beliefs being proven to be false.

For example, my mother still believed that there were long lines for food in Russia and that goods were rationed, etc...

She believe everyone there is poor.

She still has that stereotype about the "green card" seekers/scammers in her mind.

It amazes me just how persistent she can be and how she always thinks she knows best.....

but she knows how stubborn I am anyway

Posted by: wchever

Quote:

Originally posted by searcher
but she knows how stubborn I am anyway

I was called "hard-headed."

When I was 15 my mother expressed her disapproval of interracial relationships. It took her a long time to change her attitude, and even then she never admitted anything.

I'll bet most Americans think Africa is all grass huts and the MidEast is just a bunch of tents. This will change as people move around more. Heck, you and your lady will be contributing to the education of a lot of people. The daughter of the lady I write heard I was in California and immediately wanted to visit Disneyland and Hollywood. Other than San Francisco, that's probably how most Americans think of the state.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by searcher
She still has that stereotype about the "green card" seekers/scammers in her mind.

This one, unfortunatelly, sometimes come true..

I, actually, have a question for you. I apologize in advance if you find it rude or politically incorrect. How deeply you involved with black culture? Are you really rooted in a black community?

Posted by: searcher

Hmmmm.....

Its not offensive by any means.

I am always around it and as far as being deeply rooted I guess that depends upon who you ask.

I am not so much into some of the music per se, such as rap. I am into older forms of "Black music" and into other forms of music in general.

I am knowledgable about the technological achievements of Black americans more so than say sports or entertainment.

I am a technical person and more into "alternative" things in general. Not purposely but just because that is how I think.

For example, I prefer Black rock bands over rap (there is some "old school rap" that I like).

My taste in music as quite diverse.

I listen to Electronia/Electronica/80's New Wave such as Soft Cell (my favorite band), I like Rock such as Fishbone, Living Colour, Family Stand, Body Count (Black Rock bands), Parliment/Funkadelic (70's Funk), Ministry (Industrial), Terrance Trent D'Arby (Alternative/Soul who happens to be Black), Kate Bush, Prince, Jimi Hendrix, etc, etc,etc,etc.....
As for Classical, I like Bach.

I am not a mainstream person I suppose I do what I feel is right for me and I don't let society dictate for me what I am to do or to like.

I don't listen to stereotypes I prefer to find out for myself, hence my visit to Russia.

I have heard so many negatives but you can't judge people as a group since we are all individuals. In other words, I don't know everyone in a particular group therefore I cannot say a particular group behaves a certain way.

That is not to say the there aren't some common traits among some people in a group but not ALL in that group conform to that standard or stereotype.

If you look hard enough in any grou, you will always find a few who conform to the negative stereotypes.

I attend a church which is primarily Black, etc...

Yet, during all of my life I have had friends of many races/colors. I have been exposed to many things.

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by inlove
This one, unfortunatelly, sometimes come true..

I understand and agree but I guess my problem is this:

How often does it occur??? You see, you can find people who take advantage of others everywhere you go. It could be the "green card seeker" or something else but this seems to be the most prevailent and most consistently heard stereotype.

Why????

(Oops, gotta go to work I will continue when I get there)

I've got a lot to say and really when I think about all of the thing my fiance has to contend with. I can't see any reason for her, in particular, to do that.

Now, I can see in other situations and in other circumstances ut I am not the only man to write or visit her. I am not as well off as other men. I have some baggage these men don't have, etc, etc...

You see, yes that happenes but should we be soooo suspicious of every woman by virtue of her being Russian?????

understand, my mother has her biases and she is not a racist. She has some preferences but also she does not understand everything. I don't feel I should (or need) to expain everything to her but she is so sure I am being used, which is not true.

Well, I must go or i'll be late. I'll continue when I get there.

Posted by: inlove

The reason I'm asking about your attachement to the black community is that I found black culture to be distinctively different from the mainstream american culture, and I'm not talking about music here per ser. It is whole mentality of rebel, "fighting for your place under the sun", if you know what I mean, that shapes people's relationships, their attitudes and their perception of others. I was not exposed much to the black culture during my years living in California, but here, in Chicago, black community is very strong and influencial in terms of an overall impact on the culture of the city..
I find african american culture to be extremely fascinating, and was lucky to get to know pretty well, and make a lot of friends in a black community. Maybe, me being different from the "mainstream america" myself had something to do with this fact that I understand them better sometimes than people of my own race.

But.. even being individual friends with many african american people (and even having a black boss, a very good boss, I must say

), I realize that I'll always be an outsider, and never a part of the community.. I'm fine with this, but, probably, would have had a hard time with this situation if I was married to a black person.

I dated a black guy once. We got along very well, and had a lot of fun together, but it did not grow into a serious relationship in part because his family was not very accepting of the fact of him dating not just a white girl, but a girl from a culture far away.. And I can understand that, I would not want to be a white crow either..

This whole speech is, basically, about one thing..We, immigrants, all go through a cultural shock when in another country, as well as periods of loneliness and social isolation. Be prepared that your lady will have a harder time to get adjusted to a black american culture, and, more importantly, get accepted into your community.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by searcher
I understand and agree but I guess my problem is this:

How often does it occur??? You see, you can find people who take advantage of others everywhere you go. It could be the "green card seeker" or something else but this seems to be the most prevailent and most consistently heard stereotype.

Why????

I don't know how often it occurs. Does somebody keep statistics on things like that? The stereotype would be "ALL russian girls are green card seekers". Why? because some russian girls ARE green card seekers.. That's how stereotypes get formed.

Quote:

You see, yes that happenes but should we be soooo suspicious of every woman by virtue of her being Russian?????

No.

Quote:

understand, my mother has her biases and she is not a racist. She has some preferences but also she does not understand everything. I don't feel I should (or need) to expain everything to her but she is so sure I am being used, which is not true.

My boyfriend is 51. His mom is 81, and for the last 20 years of her life, after her husband died, he has been the "light of her life". He got married against her will, it did not work out, he got divorced. Mom said: "I told you so!". For the past 10 years he has had a string of girlfriends, but has not been seriously involved with anybody up until now. She is a very nice lady, and she likes me ( I think ). She is happy for her son being so happy, but.. she sees me as a threat somewhat, because I'm taking her boy away from her. Istead of visiting her twice every month and staying for the most part of the weekend, he now makes it there maybe once a month for one day (she lives a 100 miles away from here). She does not want me to take "the most important woman" place in his heart, the one that was occupied by her for so long. She is worried about her boy dating a "young chick", she is afraid I might break his heart. Thanks God, we don't need to think about immigration, or it might have been one of her worries too..

And mind you, he is not a "mama's boy" at all, and has always been doing what he finds suitable.

I'm slowly working my way into her heart, and I think she is more and more accepting of me.. We are coming over for Mother's Day and I'm planning to do some gardening with her, it is her main hobby, and likely I like it too..

So, give you old lady a break. It is a big adjustment for her too.

Posted by: searcher

Well as far as my friends accepting her they pretty much already have.

My immediate family eventually will but my mother just has her ideas. I don't give her a hard time but i'm a bit tired of the stereotypes.

Yes, some things are founded on a bit of truth and I know she has my best interest in mind. Also, she doesn't know her yet she always say we have nothing in common.

That is not true but she can't see beyond certain things.

Posted by: inlove

From the outside it might seem that you and your fiance have little in common, but who cares?

Give your mother some time, I'm sure when she meets your g/f, she will change her mind.

Posted by: GreenBarb

I think that before marriage our parents are our priority but after this changes. For me it is 1. Parents 2 Girlfirend. After Marriage it is 1. Wife 2. Parents.
Some people may have a problem with is view but I think our priorities have to shift when we are married. Even now I would put my Girlfriend on a level Par with my Parents as our relationship develops more.
It would be intersting to find out what people think of this. What are their priorities before and after marriage.

Posted by: povlhp

As for Green Card scammers, loo at how many gets a divorce after 2-3 years

here in Denmark, the government helps keep the scammers out. They need to stay here for 7 years to get the permanent resident permission. So scammers pick scammer friendly countries like USA.

I am also thinking you might be overrating the status of the US green card. I guess more RW would like a EU passport. Russians are way more Europe oriented than US oriented.

Posted by: wchever

Quote:

Originally posted by inlove
Maybe, me being different from the "mainstream america" myself had something to do with this fact that I understand them better sometimes than people of my own race.

This is VERY interesting. After reading so much abut Russian culture and values, I have been thinking about how much more Russian I was raised than American. It's very much the reason I started looking into this. Hell, my ex looks like a model, is white and 21 years my junior, so I know I can find those attributes here in the USA.

But I grew up in a black midwest working poor family that cared more for each other and education than money and looks. And there was a level of practicality in all we did that I rarely see anymore. Perhaps necessity and adversity have their advantages?

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Two comments - where there is smoke there is can be fire, so despite the stereotype, YES Africa is (in general !) very much a bunch of mud huts and YES, the Middle East is (in general !) full of tents and furthermore, YES, the overwhelming majority of people in Russia (minus the mafiosos and bureaucrats which are hard to differentiate from each other anyhow !) are indeed poor.

Second comment - relationships between Americans and Russians are NOT INTERRACIAL, but only inter-national or inter-ethnic because the majority of people in both countries belong to the white race. YOu can only speak of interracial relationships if, for example, the American man is white and the Russian woman is some sort of Tatar, Bashkir or Siberian native which are classified as part of the so-called "yellow" (Asian) race. Same thing applies to, say an AM of Vietnamese or Chinese origin and a RW of Slavic origin.

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by povlhp
As for Green Card scammers, loo at how many gets a divorce after 2-3 years

I am also thinking you might be overrating the status of the US green card. I guess more RW would like a EU passport. Russians are way more Europe oriented than US oriented.

Not me but my mother perhaps does.

I think most RW would prefer to be in Europe because of the culture and the close proximity to home.

The problem, as I see it, is that many Americans think this is the only "good" place to live thus they think everyone (especially RW) want desperately to come here and that is not true!

In some cases, yes, but they are probably the minority.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pawel_PL.USA
Second comment - relationships between Americans and Russians are NOT INTERRACIAL, but only inter-national or inter-ethnic because the majority of people in both countries belong to the white race. YOu can only speak of interracial relationships if, for example, the American man is white and the Russian woman is some sort of Tatar, Bashkir or Siberian native which are classified as part of the so-called "yellow" (Asian) race. Same thing applies to, say an AM of Vietnamese or Chinese origin and a RW of Slavic origin.

True but in my case it is also interracial.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I agree that Europe may sometimes be a much more "fun" and cultured place to live rather than the United States, but the problem is that there simply aren't that many jobs in Europe to go around ... or at least less than in America.

Posted by: povlhp

San Francisco is like Europe in many ways, so don't come here and say americans are not civilized.

But, I hate it when more men than women smiles to me in the bar.

I am not sure if the unemplyment rate in the US is lower than around here. But you are probably right that there are more jobs for uneducated unskilled labor in the US, and for the 25% of the population not speaking english. In Europe the language is much more important.

But I do not think a russian wife would do bad here, but a russian couple would most likely.

Posted by: Jill

Happy birthday, povlhp

Posted by: campanula

Hi, people!

Quote:

Originally posted by GreenBarb
I think that before marriage our parents are our priority but after this changes. For me it is 1. Parents 2 Girlfirend. After Marriage it is 1. Wife 2. Parents.

Yes, after marriage man must �leave his mother and stick to his wife�.
It must be that way. But AFTER marriage. BEFORE marriage mother does know best.
She loves you, and wishes you the best.
Actually there is no one girl in the whole world who worth of her very best son.
Ask your mom and she will confirm this. : )

Nice to see that, Mark!
I-129F submitted March 4, 2005
I-797C Notice of Action - March 10, 2005

Posted by: searcher

Hi!

Welcome back!!!! You've been away for many months. Its good to hear from you again!!!!!!!

Posted by: wchever

Quote:

Originally posted by Pawel_PL.USA
Two comments - where there is smoke there is can be fire, so despite the stereotype, YES Africa is (in general !) very much a bunch of mud huts and YES, the Middle East is (in general !) full of tents and furthermore, YES, the overwhelming majority of people in Russia (minus the mafiosos and bureaucrats which are hard to differentiate from each other anyhow !) are indeed poor.

And Disneyland and Hollywood really *are* in California. Let's face it, the human brain is configured to put all experience into neat little boxes so we can quickly tell whether to run or fight. The problem with the "facts" stated above, and then mitigated with the qualifying parentheticals is that people tend to forget that they ARE stereotypes and begin to treat them as facts.

And that results in ignorant attitudes like the one it sounds like searcher's mom needs to get over.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Wchever, don't be like the thoughtless majority - stereotypes are actually quite useful and only the question of the margin of error remains. The truth is that nations, races, countries and civilizations are different in their own very crucial ways and without some sort of stereotypes we would be in trouble to differentiate these. Stereotypes are reflections of the truth or else they wouldn't be going around.

Quote:

I am not sure if the unemplyment rate in the US is lower than around here. But you are probably right that there are more jobs for uneducated unskilled labor in the US, and for the 25% of the population not speaking english. In Europe the language is much more important.

... which is why America is more tolerant and gives the poor and down-trodden more opportunities than socialist-liberal Europe. Believe me, a lot of Polish, Mexican and Russian people in Chicago have quite a lot of money without mafia connections or speaking English .... can you imagine something like that in socialist Europe ?

Posted by: wchever

Quote:

Originally posted by Pawel_PL.USA
Wchever, don't be like the thoughtless majority - stereotypes are actually quite useful and only the question of the margin of error remains. The truth is that nations, races, countries and civilizations are different in their own very crucial ways and without some sort of stereotypes we would be in trouble to differentiate these. Stereotypes are reflections of the truth or else they wouldn't be going around.

Me, thoughtless? I hope not.

There is a stereotype of Polish people in the USA that was formed during the immigration waves of the early 20th century when only Western European immigrants were truly 'welcome' here. That stereotype has been so ingrained in this culture it has resulted in what is commonly referred to as THE "Polish joke."

Is there any 'reflection of truth' in this stereotype? I doubt it. It was created by the ignorance of intolerance and perpetuated by those who accept all stereotypes as having "a grain of truth." It was a stereotype created and accepted for the sole purpose of justifying prejudice.

Do I know some generalities have some validity? Certainly. The differences will be obvious and tend to push us apart. But as individual people, we are closer in our motivations and desires than we are different, and that is where our attentions are best paid.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Wchever, you gave a good example to illustrate MY point. Yes, there is prejudice in so-called Polish jokes and yes, they are mean, but they do contain a significant grain of truth. Polish immigration in the 19th century, as well as in the 20th and 21st was and is composed of large groups of peasant and small town people with average intelligence and little education (a group called "rednecks" here in the States). That does not make them bad people or bad Poles, but they do leave lots to be desired and do many things that are primitive and crude ... like "rednecks" ... and hence, the "Polish jokes". I live within the Polish community, I interact with it everyday and beliveve me, I know what I'm talking about here.

I'm not offended by them, but I am not an easily-offendable, insecure person either and I just say what I think ... which sometimes tends to offend insecure people sometimes. But I like to think that I'm bringing some of that refreshing Eastern and Central European bluntness and straight-forwardness to the table that Americans and Western Europeans are losing.

And no, I'm not calling you thoughtless - I'm calling the PC "tolerance" reign of terror thoughtless.

Posted by: wchever

"Yes, there is prejudice in so-called Polish jokes and yes, they are mean, but they do contain a significant grain of truth."

Yep, we're headed in circles.

No, I am not PC, but I am utilitarian. Your 'grain of truth' can only be applied in general terms. This does absolutely nothing for you when dealing with an individual. That is why, again, you had to qualify those stereotypes! Yes, in general this, or mostly that, but if you want to know Truth, then you acutally DO have to think before just sticking all experience into one of those neat little PRE-MADE boxes in your brain. That fact is, a lot of stuff just DOESN'T fit into those boxes, people force it in anyway, and then we wind up with people who think all Polish really ARE dumb, AND will TREAT them like that in their daily dealings. THAT is where the problem lies in assuming the 'grain of truth' applies.

All women want a man (are you surprised and offended when you encounter a lesbian?) I know men who were. Why? Call it cognitive dissonance. Their pre-supposed ideas were wrong, it confused them, and it made them angry.

All Poles are ignorant. When my ex-wife's great-great uncle hit Ellis Island, no one knew his great-nephew would one day wind up an astrophysicist at Lawrence Berkeley labs. They just saw the peasant with an unsophisticated background and assumed 'ignorant.' Perhaps he was. But his progeny contributed much to this nation. And the ignorant minor functionary that processed him in probably felt really superior to that 'peasant' thanks to the stereotype. We should be glad that minor functionary wasn't in a position to do him real harm, like send him back.

And yes, I have read "Harrison Bergeron"

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Well, you just have to get used to the fact that people usually assume things and pre-judge (hence the word - PREJUDICE) others - that is the nature of the human being. It's what naturally makes up human intelligence.

And we probably are going in circles, because you're just not convincing me. I think it's just more "utilitarian" to generalize than to assume that because of exceptions and greater or smaller margins of error one can't really prove anything or say anything for certain. Utalitarianwise and for practical reasons life is all about generalizations ... and these generalizations wouldn't be here if they weren't somewhat true and even ... neccessary.

Posted by: wchever

"And we probably are going in circles, because you're just not convincing me. I think it's just more "utilitarian" to generalize than to assume that because of exceptions and greater or smaller margins of error one can't really prove anything or say anything for certain."

Now, now, no straw men for my side of the discussion please. I did not say one cannot say anything for certain. What I did say was that since most don't deal with large groups of people, generalities aboout those groups tend to wrong when applied to individuals, and therefore do little to aid one's understanding of the world around them.

And I don't need to convince you.

"Well, you just have to get used to the fact that people usually assume things and pre-judge (hence the word - PREJUDICE) others - that is the nature of the human being. It's what naturally makes up human intelligence."

Exactly correct. As I previously stated, however, I believe it's a holdover from when that tendency WAS needed. You also no longer need your appendix. I don't eat meat. My body is human and doesn't have the necessary enzymes to properly process a steady diet high in animal fat.

But if I lived high in the Himalayas where my only source of protein would be meat, I'd have no problem with it. Even knowing that, IN GENERAL, it's very likely to give me prostate cancer at 70.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Well, I've been known to digest large quantities of both raw (Tatar, oh yeah !), cooked and fried meat and rare, red, bloody steaks are my favorite !

As far as pre-judging people, I think it still is a needed trait because, let's face it, we still need to know how to approach a person we don't know and the only way to know how to approach that person is to "size them up" from the way they look and behave ... and just because we sometimes make mistakes to someone's credit or discredit, oh well. We need the so-called "survival instinct" these days as much as we needed it thousands of years ago.

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by povlhp
As for Green Card scammers, loo at how many gets a divorce after 2-3 years

here in Denmark, the government helps keep the scammers out. They need to stay here for 7 years to get the permanent resident permission. So scammers pick scammer friendly countries like USA.

I am also thinking you might be overrating the status of the US green card. I guess more RW would like a EU passport. Russians are way more Europe oriented than US oriented.

Ive seen opposing statistics. In the general US population roughly 50% of marriages terminate in the first 5 years of marriage and 80% of RW/AM marriages are still intact. Ive not seen the source data that supports this information so I cant vouch for its valadity

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
Ive seen opposing statistics. In the general US population roughly 50% of marriages terminate in the first 5 years of marriage and 80% of RW/AM marriages are still intact. Ive not seen the source data that supports this information so I cant vouch for its valadity

I finally found a site with some stats anyone interested here is the link

http://www.divorcereform.org/rates.html

The divorce rate in the US as of 2002 40% per capita the scary thing is that 1 in 12 is headed for divorce within the first 2 years of marriage! The Census bureau uses a 50% number and the National Center for Health Statistics says its 43% they specifically cite that 43% of marriages end within 15 years of marriage.

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