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strange frendship

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Posted by: Tami

hi,guys,I live in the US only for 3 1/2 months and sometimes I feel I'm form the another planet,I can't understand american life. For example,how to stay friends with your ex girlfriend after splitting and still to hung out with her everywhere. In Russia and in Belarus,in all Past USSR countries you will never see a couple together after they did split . Before I met my future husband in June,he wrote me he split with his girlfriend and he is single. Now,a few days ago I found in the computer files with the pics .My husband always puts dates on all files. So I learned they still were together even they split and they did hung out together everywhere. How it can be ????? He still was with her and he was going to meet me. For me it is difficult to understand this.... He told me I didn't reach his level to understand more what does friendship mean....he is 51 y.o.,I'm only 31. Also he told me they are still friends. Sorry,but in my opinion, you can't f... your friend...or it is normal for the US??????? It is still hard for me to understand some american mentality.... I can't!!!! It seems crazy for me!!! Now if he would have a dinner with her I would feel a fulish and I would consider he has no respect and love to me!!!! I have to meet his ex girlfriends because sometimes they have common business. I feel starnge because I love him. It hurts me so much!!!


Posted by: Jill

I am assuming that when you say "friends" that you mean just that and that they are NOT sleeping together or anything....

If that is the case:

I don't see anything wrong with remaining friends with your ex--as long as both people can emotionally handle it and both people understand that it is now only frienship (with no further physical or romantic involvement). If both people are OK with that, then great. And it makes sense to me--this is someone that you have trusted and relied on in the past and those are both excellent qualities for a friend to have. And also the person will know you well and understand some of your problems. I think it can work out very well in certain cases. But it does require a lot of maturity on the part of both people involved.

Quote:
In Russia and in Belarus,in all Past USSR countries you will never see a couple together after they did split .


Never say never. It may be less common, but it happens there too. I know quite a few Russians/Ukrainians who have remained good friends with one (or even some) of their ex's. I have Russian/Ukrainian ex's myself that I still keep in touch with and whom I consider to be friends. One is even planning to visit me in Yerevan soon (and my Ukrainian husband has absolutely no problem with this)


Posted by: FlashingEyes

Tami,

I think if you don't feel comfortable with his keeping a friendship relationship with his ex that he should be willing to end that friendship. He can make many friends but has only one wife. In this case, your discomfort about the continued friendship should outweigh his enjoyment of maintaining it. If he is the kind of man who thinks his decisions do not need to be comfortable to both of you then either you or he needs to make a big change.


Posted by: Skinman569

Hi ladies, I have dealt with this same issue with my Russian wife. I still have a friendly relationship with my ex, we have 2 young kids together. Since we have to communicate about the children, we keep things pleasant. My wife went insane with jealousy when I spoke to my ex for a few minutes before my children got on the phone. Keep in mind I was in her apartment in Russia at the time. She thought I was crazy too, and said that this is not done in the FSU. Eventually we worked it out, but it was difficult. She now understands I have to talk with the ex occasionally, but does not like it at all. I think it will take time for her to become secure with this. But just wanted to tell you, I have been there too!


Posted by: Jill

But what is a marriage worth without trust and respect? And if you truly trust and respect your spouse, why should you feel threatened by his ex? Of course, there are some situations where the ex might be jealous of his marriage or may try to cause problems....But if she is a nice, supportive person--what is the problem? Perhaps you could get to know her a little bit--maybe you will even like her and you and she will become friends yourselves

(Or am I being naive? )

And I do understand Flash's point about him being willing to make sacrifices for his wife's happiness---but at the same time, why should a wife dictate with whom her husband can and can not form friendships? It seems a little controlling to me. Again, there may be some situations where the friend in question is a rotten person and a bad influence....But if we're talking about a normal, decent human being--doesn't he have the right to socialize with that person? Next will she tell him where he is allowed to work and what clothes he is allowed to wear? My opinion is that even when two people are married, each person still has a right to make certain decisions for him or herself. Neither spouse should become a dictator.

But this is just my opinion.


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill
And I do understand Flash's point about him being willing to make sacrifices for his wife's happiness---but at the same time, why should a wife dictate with whom her husband can and can not form friendships? It seems a little controlling to me. Again, there may be some situations where the friend in question is a rotten person and a bad influence....But if we're talking about a normal, decent human being--doesn't he have the right to socialize with that person? Next will she tell him where he is allowed to work and what clothes he is allowed to wear? My opinion is that even when two people are married, each person still has a right to make certain decisions for him or herself. Neither spouse should become a dictator.

But this is just my opinion.


ITA. If someone wants to cheat, he or she is going to and being insanely jealous is only likely to annoy them to the point where they want to cheat more. I really hate jealous behavior-- fortunately both my husband and I are not jealous types.


Posted by: tanya3475

It's a common problem between Russian-American couples because it is very true that in Russia a split means a split, even if you were married and had children together...In Russian mentality the father rarely communicates with his children after the divorce and never with his ex...especially if he gets remarried...i had the same situation with my husband and it took me a long time and lots of conversations to realize finally that it is actually Possible to care about your children without caring about your ex..In Tami's situation there are no children involved so it doesn't make any sense to me why her husband is willing to sustain the friendship of his ex-g/f...I do think, Tami, you should talk to him seriously...Would he like the idea of you hanging out with your ex boyfriends? Compromise in marriage is important and I think, no woman would be happy seeing her husband with another woman (even if he says it's just "friendship")
Sincerely,
Tanya


Posted by: inlove

I think we should distiguish "keeping friendly relations" from "hanging out together all the time". The last does not seem very healthy to me.


Posted by: tanya3475

Between man and woman there is no friendship possible; there is passion, enmity, worship, love, but no friendship (O. Wlide)


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Between man and woman there is no friendship possible; there is passion, enmity, worship, love, but no friendship (O. Wlide)


In a post-feminizm society a friendship between a man and a woman is very much possible. In the times of Wilde this term ment a much closer relationship between two people that it means now...


Posted by: tanya3475

From my personal experience it is very impossible...it simply doesn't exist, unless the man is gay


Posted by: inlove

It depends on what you mean by a friendship. I have had very good friendships with straight men without making it into a "passion, worship, love", etc. They were not my closest friends - this place I leave for a woman, nothing is better for a partner in crime than a great girlfriend. Nonetheless, a pure friendship with a man can be a beautiful thing. You should try it sometime.


Posted by: tanya3475

My husband is my best friend... as far as pure friendship with a man goes...hmmm...sounds quite utopic


Posted by: inlove

It depends on personalities of people involved, I guess.. Some just cannot make cross-gender friendships. Except for spouses, of course, until they divorce them.


Posted by: tanya3475

It's wonderful I quess if it's possible...but in Tami's case, they are married and i think for a married guy to be friends with other women is beyond abnormal


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
It's wonderful I quess if it's possible...but in Tami's case, they are married and i think for a married guy to be friends with other women is beyond abnormal


In Tami's situation, her husband is not a friend with another woman, he is a close friend with an ex-girfriend. This is a post-relationship friendship, not a pure friendship.

I don't mind my b/f being friends with other women. I don't mind him keeping in touch with his ex-wife. I would mind, though, if he started hanging out with them constantly, and not take my feelings about it in consideration.


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
It's wonderful I quess if it's possible...but in Tami's case, they are married and i think for a married guy to be friends with other women is beyond abnormal



I disagree 100%... One of my best friends is female.. and we were never boyfriend / girlfriend...

And any future wife will be fine with that... or there will be friction!!

If you trust your spouse, then you TRUST them!!


Posted by: tanya3475

I disagree completely...my opinion is that there is no friendship possible between a man and a woman and i will stick to it... Texas Proud, i don't believe your future wife will be fine with that and I don't believe any woman will be fine with that...of course it depends what you mean by friendship and how far in your case it goes...


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
I disagree completely...my opinion is that there is no friendship possible between a man and a woman and i will stick to it... Texas Proud, i don't believe your future wife will be fine with that and I don't believe any woman will be fine with that...of course it depends what you mean by friendship and how far in your case it goes...


I am sorry Tanya, but you are wrong... (sorry for the harsh words) she is a friend just like any male friend. I have two very close friends and one is male the other female. I do not see how you can not understand that friendship is not love or sex or anything BUT friendship.

I would not give up a friend for someone that I do not know yet... and if during the course of learning about the woman she has a problem with my friends then I will not pursue this relationship. To me it is like asking me to stop seeing my family and I will not do that for a spouse.. and I can say that she would never become my spouse if she was that way anyhow...

I will ask you, why do you think a man and a woman can NOT be friends?

Oh, and by the way, I do have a couple of other less close friends that are female... some are married, some with long term boyfriends... their men had to deal with me being a friend and now do not have any problem with it since they know that is all I am interested in being...


Posted by: tanya3475

Well, i can well decide for myself whether i am wrong or right (sorry for harsh words)...This is my belief based on personal experience with men, and in my married life there is no way i would tolerate my husband's communication with any women (and he wouldn't want it from me either)... It's not about someone being Wrong or Right (is there Universal Truth, dear Mr. Texas Proud?), but it's about what everyone's conscious allows him to think! If that's what your belief is, Great, but let me have my own views!


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Well, i can well decide for myself whether i am wrong or right (sorry for harsh words)...This is my belief based on personal experience with men, and in my married life there is no way i would tolerate my husband's communication with any women (and he wouldn't want it from me either)... It's not about someone being Wrong or Right (is there Universal Truth, dear Mr. Texas Proud?), but it's about what everyone's conscious allows him to think! If that's what your belief is, Great, but let me have my own views!


Then you have to specify that it is for YOU and YOUR husband a friendship with the opposite sex is impossible. It does not mean that it is impossible for everybody else. When you say a friendship between a man and a woman is absolutely impossible, you extend your personal experience and your "conscious" on the rest of the humankind.


Posted by: tanya3475

I believe it for the whole humankind and it is my Personal opinion(i dont impose it upon you)...i am free to express my opinion as you are free to express yours but don't tell me im wrong...i believe if a woman is beautiful, educated and sure of herself, she cannot hold friendships with guys(sexual attraction will sooner or later come inbetween)...an old maid can...sure, why not if she is not attractive enough she can be at least friends... it is my belief yes...inlove, as you are willing to impose your beliefs on the rest of mankind, then so can i...you think friendships of this kind are possible, i don't think so....in discussions like that people can say "i think" and "i believe" and not "you are wrong"...who told you You are right? and why should i agree with You? sorry, but i dont communicate well with opinionated people


Posted by: Pin Boy

hi tanya,

welcome...remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar...it seems that your form of disagreement is on the antagonistic side...the general tone of this forum, for the most part, is congenial and often friendly...hope you'll notice this as well and can be slightly less argumentative

pin boy


Posted by: tanya3475

i think i was only expressing my opinion at first but was told that i was wrong...so why am i argumentative when i am just trying to say what i think....i was expressing my personal opinion and didnt need to hear that i am wrong...cus i know i am right i respect other peoples opinions, dont please misunderstand me, but i do get angry when someone is trying to impose his opinion upon me...if people on these forum were polite they wouldnt be using such phrases as "you are wrong", but only phrases like "i think" or "let me disagree"


Posted by: Pin Boy

tanya,

i think your experience may be extremely different than the majority of the people who have responded to this thread...i can't imagine not having female friends...to this day i have close female friends that i attended grade school with - some of them as far back as kindergarten! i am fortunate that many of my friends today are the same friends i had before my voice began to change

as a matter of fact, i'm on my way out tonight to meet up with some of them

pin boy


Posted by: tanya3475

Pin Boy,
i wasn't saying it is not possible, i was just saying i dont believe in it myself...and if you are married, how far do your friendships go? if by friendships you mean get togethers for BBQs or a sports game, or just conversation...I agree it is possible...but if you mean something like going out (if you are married) with a friend leaving your wife behind, or discussing something very personal with her about your wife or spending time with her while your wife is at home even though you have nothing sexual, i don't understand this....sorry if i sounded too strong i didnt mean this...i really enjoy reading this forum


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Pin Boy,
i wasn't saying it is not possible, i was just saying i dont believe in it myself...and if you are married, how far do your friendships go? if by friendships you mean get togethers for BBQs or a sports game, or just conversation...I agree it is possible...but if you mean something like going out (if you are married) with a friend leaving your wife behind, or discussing something very personal with her about your wife or spending time with her while your wife is at home even though you have nothing sexual, i don't understand this....sorry if i sounded too strong i didnt mean this...i really enjoy reading this forum


Tanya,

It is my bad for the way I said it to you.. but your statement was it is NOT POSSIBLE. This is an absolute statement and not one of opinion. If YOU do not believe it is possible then great. We agree to disagree. This is what people do all the time.

Me and others are just saying with examples how your belief is not what is happening in real life. You might want to impose your belief on your husband and that is fine if you both agree. However, I would not allow this to be imposed on me. Would I be going 'out' with my friend without my wife? Not unless she did not want to go. If she wanted to go, then fine. But, my friend and I are on a bowling team and we will continue to do so. If my future wife wants to join, then GREAT. But if not, then that is her decision. If she has a male friend that she likes then I will support her... but, we are talking about me being able to be with her if I want...

So, you keep your belief and we will keep ours...


Posted by: tanya3475

Texas Proud,
keeping our beliefs is important and whatever works for you...i wasnt saying it is Not Possible, i was saying in My opinion, it is Not Possible...after all, we all have our own reality...and...sorry if i said something that offended you


Posted by: mrv71

I don't know, guys, why are you talking about friendship here... Tami clearly said in her message that her husband was still sleeping with his ex while he was telling her that he was single, and he is still in contact with his ex, even after they are married. This says a lot about this guy's character and morals. I don't know how can you defend him...


Posted by: tanya3475

Finally someone to agree with me


Posted by: Jerico

I have to say that I agree Tanya in her thinking
I had many woman write me and now that i am married to my Russian wife I have cut off all contact with these woman.
Some were just penpals but it is a courtesy issue for me.
However my wife penpals with many of the guys that wrote to her in the past still.
She has told most that she is married now but they still write and write and write.
It bothers me a little bit.
Being a guy I know these guys probably are looking for more than just a penpal even knowing she is married!!
She doen`t see this she says but I dont like it.
Especially now since i did all the work and brought her to the USA
She chats with people because she is bored right now so I dont say anything about it.
I would be lying if i said it did not bother me.
Jerry


Posted by: Tami

Thanks,guys,who can understand me. Tanja,mrv,thank you very much for your support!!! I can't understand the girl from Armenia,Erevan...she is very strange. By the way (especially for her) I was born in Georgia,Tbilisi and I know Kaukasian mentality about marriage and friendship. May be she is only one in her point of the view on friendship...she surprised me so much...


Posted by: tanya3475

Marriage means responsibility, and i think that some people are just not meant to be married...they value their "freedom" too much and cannot be monogamous...so they talk about some sort of intersexual friendships...omg..they even give these friendships classifications of "pure friendship" and "post-relationship" friendship...sometimes i wish i was born in the 18th century so i wouldn't have to deal with modern morals...
Jerico, i totally agree with you that things like that are hard to ignore for a married man...If your wife is bored she could find something else to do rather than writing to different guys...i think you should talk to her and she should understand...good luck


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by Tami: I can't understand the girl from Armenia,Erevan...she is very strange. By the way (especially for her) I was born in Georgia,Tbilisi and I know Kaukasian mentality about marriage and friendship. May be she is only one in her point of the view on friendship...she surprised me so much...


Well Jill... I believe Igor has a wife who is totally cool about his friends! She certainly respects his right to have friends... and sounds like if she doesn't like them- she does her best to tolerate them

Tami you mentioned your hubby keeps pictures that are tagged by date and time. Does he have photos of his ex and himself engaged in sex? How do you know he's sleeping with her, what's your evidence?


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally posted by Jerico
I have to say that I agree Tanya in her thinking
I had many woman write me and now that i am married to my Russian wife I have cut off all contact with these woman.
Some were just penpals but it is a courtesy issue for me.
However my wife penpals with many of the guys that wrote to her in the past still.
She has told most that she is married now but they still write and write and write.
It bothers me a little bit.
Being a guy I know these guys probably are looking for more than just a penpal even knowing she is married!!
She doen`t see this she says but I dont like it.
Especially now since i did all the work and brought her to the USA
She chats with people because she is bored right now so I dont say anything about it.
I would be lying if i said it did not bother me.
Jerry


Hey Jerry,

I think this is different than what I was talking about... these men were trying to get your wife to be THIER wife. They were not friends (and I mean friends, not former spouse, not former lover... ) before you got married. I would not want my wife to be sending emails to men that were pursuing her...

BUT, if she had a male friend and I come into the picture, we get married and she wants to keep in contact with this male friend, then by all means...as long as she tells me it is just friendship... what are you supposed to think, that she is lying to you?

My issue with Tanya is that she is saying that it can not happen.. now I understand it is her opinion it can not happen.. I am saying for a fact it can because I have a friend who is a woman... and I am NOT gay as she postulates. I will leave Tanya alone as she is entitled to her opinions and I respect that!!


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Texas Proud,
keeping our beliefs is important and whatever works for you...i wasnt saying it is Not Possible, i was saying in My opinion, it is Not Possible...after all, we all have our own reality...and...sorry if i said something that offended you


Tanya,

No, you did not offend me.. and I know that I can be harsh with my words... I am sorry. You come from a different culture and have had experiences that have lead you to your beliefs... not an issue with me.

Regards,

Texas Proud


Posted by: Tami

hello,BradIL, I didn't wrote my husband continuous sleeping with his ex girl/f,but when I came to his house I found her naked pics. I was killed...Also I found their pics where they are together. He told me he deleted them all but he didn't. So I deleted them all from his computer and my life... When I came to US some american guys wrote me a letters,but they all knew I got married. They wrote me only the first 2 weeks,I didn't answered on their letters so now no one guy bothers me any more. I don't write to guys. I have my beloved husband. But my beloved husband all the time gets some sheet from his another friend (she is a girl) and he delets all messages from her (some funny pics or jokes). Also my husband has a very good friend (she is a woman) and we like to meet somewhere. I like her and I understand their friendship. In my opinion if the girl is ugly or fat as a pig (here,in the US it is very popular to be both) she can't find a boyfriend so she will agree to hung out with someone not to be alone. Before my husband introduced us he told me she is not sexy and she is not feminine,she is fat,etc... So he knew that he will not sleep with her...he was not attracted with her.)) ... so no intimacy can be between them . I don't believe in a friendship between man and a woman because all men in my country (Georgia,Belarus) wanted intimacy with me. I wanted more than intimacy...I wanted to love and to be beloved. I wanted some respect from men and I respected myself first...
I think in all cases presents some flirt from the both sides... Girls try to flirt with men.... so what kind of friendship can be?
Or another example. I didn't come to US yet and my future husband told me he has some very single girl and he is sooo pity for her....that she is so lonely...that she needs some care.... What the hell was he talking about? That time we where together and I was his fiancee. I argued with him over the Internet because I was dying without him.... I belonged to him and I didn't meet with any single guys and boy friends...so what did he tell me hurt me some much..... I knew this girl,we corresponded some times. So she wrote me she is not single,she has a big family and a bunch of friends so she is not lonely....one time online she told me she wants to have a baby (but it is too late,she is 45) and a husband,happy family. So how I couldn't be nervous when my beloved man was going to have a dinner with her? Men,please,think well what are you doing because you can hurt our russian souls so much...it is so painful... I feel we are aliens from the another planet here and it will take some years for us to get used to this "free love" and "starnge friendship"...I
know I will never change,my mentality and moral side of me will always be the same. I want to have a daughter with my husband but when I see american kids (girls)... I want nothing....The US is a wonderful country but not the best to have kids...to have not spoiled,normal kids..... I didn't want to hurt somebody,it is only my opinion.....


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by Tami: hello,BradIL, I didn't wrote my husband continuous sleeping with his ex girl/f,but when I came to his house I found her naked pics.


Yeah Tami... that would be a problem. Have to agree with you.

Quote:
Tami also writes: Also I found their pics where they are together. He told me he deleted them all but he didn't. So I deleted them all from his computer and my life.


Tami... I will gently say to you that your husband did have a life before he met you... and fond memories that do not include you. Isn't he entitled to keep those?

Quote:
Tami also writes: Also my husband has a very good friend (she is a woman) and we like to meet somewhere. I like her and I understand their friendship.


Tanya should read these words closely... good for you Tami- its good you have an open mind about a man's female friends.

Quote:
Tami also writes: In my opinion if the girl is ugly or fat as a pig (here,in the US it is very popular to be both)


Tami--- you are a pistol! Take this remark as a compliment.

Quote:
Tami also writes: I feel we are aliens from the another planet here and it will take some years for us to get used to this "free love" and "starnge friendship"


I appreciate your honesty Tami, and I'm sure the culture shock can be difficult to deal with sometimes. As an American man I will feel like an alien just visiting Russia... I will struggle to get used to the attention that RW give to men they love.

Quote:
Tami also writes: I want to have a daughter with my husband but when I see american kids (girls)... I want nothing....The US is a wonderful country but not the best to have kids...to have not spoiled,normal kids


BULLSEYE Tami! (good observation) A lot of Americans feel this way also. So when your girlfriends back home ask for your comments about American culture--- I hope you tell them about this. BTW... sons are not so bad. Having been one, I can tell you we love, and are very devoted, to our mothers ALL OUR LIVES! I appreciated your post.


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally posted by Tami
I didn't wrote my husband continuous sleeping with his ex girl/f,but when I came to his house I found her naked pics. I was killed..


I absolutely agree with you on this one!! All naked pictures of your ex out!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Tami
Also I found their pics where they are together. He told me he deleted them all but he didn't. So I deleted them all from his computer and my life...


Hmm, I can see your point.. but to me it is according to what kind of pictures etc. Vacation picts, large family get together etc to me are OK... Wedding pictures, OK.. but maybe not... I am mixed on this one...


Quote:
Originally posted by Tami
I like her and I understand their friendship. In my opinion if the girl is ugly or fat as a pig (here,in the US it is very popular to be both) she can't find a boyfriend so she will agree to hung out with someone not to be alone. Before my husband introduced us he told me she is not sexy and she is not feminine,she is fat,etc... So he knew that he will not sleep with her...he was not attracted with her.)) ... so no intimacy can be between them .


Two comments on this... if she was attractive, then he WOULD think about sleeping with her? He does not sound like he is trustworthy then...

Also, if a man wants to sleep around, he will sleep with the fat or ugly woman because he wants to sleep around!! You are not 'safe' if you husband wants to cheat. He will find someone and not tell you... a friend is a friend!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Tami
I don't believe in a friendship between man and a woman because all men in my country (Georgia,Belarus) wanted intimacy with me. .


I am sorry to hear that your country does not produce trustworthy men!!! I am not saying that men here will not sleep around (there is a lot of it!!!), but that there are men who are honest and would not break their trust with their wife... this is something I remember, and maybe someone will Google it.. but I remember like 20 to 25% of men NEVER cheat on their wifes... and I think it is a lot higher.


Quote:
Originally posted by Tami

I feel we are aliens from the another planet here and it will take some years for us to get used to this "free love" and "starnge friendship"....



I do not agree with 'free love'... that is out when you are married... if you husband is doing that, then you have a problem... I hope not!! Strange friendship is only strange because of your history and beliefs... if you had some good friendships with men in your country and they did not try to sleep with you, then you would have a completly different opinion!!

Good luck Tami!! I hope that it is just something in your mind and that your husband is good and faithful!!


Posted by: inlove

Tami,
I'm not sure that your husband is that great of a guy. He seems fishy to me.. and very inconsiderate. It does not have to do with the american culture, and it has nothing to do with cross-gender friendships. It is his personal trait that you, guys, have to address together..

Quote:
I don't believe in a friendship between man and a woman because all men in my country (Georgia,Belarus) wanted intimacy with me.


Yeah, it is hard to make a transition from being seen, and consiquently seeing yourself, primarily as a sexual object to the state of being seen and seeing yourself as a human being first. It takes time.

I hope you resolve this issue with your husband to the mutual satisfaction.


Posted by: tanya3475

I agree with Tami that it is very hard for a good-looking woman to keep friendships with guys (for a fat, unattractive girl, yes, it is very possible, i do admit at this level that this friendship is possible!!!)...I don't know guys, i do come from a different culture, but for a long time I have lived and worked in Europe and now here in the USA, and I did form friendships with men ( I do agree that men can be much better friends than women), but with me in every case it turned out they had sexual feelings for me in the end! so, based on this i formed the opinion that friendships between opposite sexes are impossible...but thinking of what Tami said, I realize that it it possible provided a woman has zero sex appeal...How many of you guys have a best female friend, who looks like a playboy model? lol be sincere here!!!


Posted by: Tami

Tanja,you are right....I'm slim good looking 31-y.o. woman and I have 10 y.o son. In my country it was not possible to have a male friend-our men saw only a female in me. I'm sure the friendship between opposit sexes is possible when one side doesn't wish another.....))One side is not sexy....))
Thanks,guys,for your comments. It was very interesting to learn more about american mentality .....))


Posted by: Pin Boy

yes, i have attractive female friends, but I am not always physically attracted to every attractive, by most standards, women...for example, I am not particularyly attracted to blondes...i can count on one hand the number of blondes I have dated...and I have two close, attractive blonde friends that I have no physical interest in (one is married, one is not)...so I can spend time in their company, alone or in a group setting, and it's no problem...just friends...

pin boy


Posted by: Ade

Hi Tanya, one of my closest friends is an extremely attractive woman, happily married with kids. Her husband trusts us together, and, though I did like her in a male-female way when we were younger, those feelings have gone.

I have no problem with having close female friends just as friends - though if/when I get married, I would adjust (to a reasonable degree) based on my wife's feelings - they would be too important to not factor in to things. But in principle I have no problem with close female friends; not yet had to think how I'd feel about my partner having close male friends though, which may change my opinion - but maybe that would be just jealousy.

In contrast to myself, my nephew (and closest friend; he's 34, happily married with a kiddie) is content with male friends outside his marriage - he's of the definite opinion that with women, sex enters the equation, and that for him, men are better friends in all respects.

So I guess it's totally down to the individual - but relying on individual morals and attitudes.

Ade


Posted by: inlove

Most of my male friends are in stable relationships already, as well as myself, so there is no sexual tension invloved.
I have two single male friends. One of them, at some point, constituted a potential boyfriend material, but once I got smitten with my prince, this situation resolved itself.. We still play tennis regularly, have lunches once in a while, and my boyfriend does not mind.


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
I can't understand the girl from Armenia,Erevan...she is very strange. By the way (especially for her) I was born in Georgia,Tbilisi and I know Kaukasian mentality about marriage and friendship. May be she is only one in her point of the view on friendship...she surprised me so much...


Well, you should try to be a little more open minded then. My husband has female friends (including ex girlfriends) and this does not bother me in the least even when they are attractive, as most of his ex-girlfriends are (including a well-known pop singer who still calls him on occasion, although she is also married now ). I myself have male friends (including ex boyfriends), so I understand that such friendship is possible and even normal. There is no jealousy at all because we trust each other completely and we respect each other's right to choose his/her own friends. Why is this "very strange"?

BTW, neither of us is from the Caucusas--we moved here only in September of last year so we are not subject to "Caucasian mentality" about marriage and friendship

Tanya, if you do not believe that friendship between men and women is possible, that is fine. I just hope your husband has the same attitude, otherwise there will likely be some tension in your marriage. If you both agree to dump all your friends of the opposite sex and both are truly content with this decsion, then more power to you. But if your husband values his friends--both male and female--then I hope that you will try to be understanding of this.


Posted by: tanya3475

Jill,
i do agree with you that both spouses should agree on this matter...I wouldnt marry my husband if he didnt...he happens to have completely the same beliefs...we are very happy with each other's compony...i wouldnt be able to live with a man who has female friends as well as my husband couldnt live with a woman who has male friends...its all about individual morals and perception of life...it is not possible to make someone change his beliefs that is why the best solution is to find a companion who shares your views on life


Posted by: FrancoPUA

Tami,
you should talk with your husband and tell him that:

- Seeing ex girlfriend does not fit with family values
- Keeping pics of her on his computer does not fit with family values
- Business with her - if can´t be avoided - should be confined to work and business venues. There is no need for dinners together. That´s why business places have offices.

Don´t think that American lifestyle would be something better. There are many habits which are extremely spoiled and do not fit at all with the values of a healthy family.

Also talk with him about respect: respect is very important for a relationship to succeed.

When I met my RW and when it become clear that we will start a life together I deleted all the files I had about all my dozens of "girlfriends" I had for respect to her. I did not want to hurt her if she comes and opens the computer and sees the pics of beautiful women. I also quitted all the relationships I had and told the ladies to not call me anymore.

Also I told her that I will not allow any kind of computer, phone or personal relationship which does not fit clearly with work and business and is not kept in work environment.

This may seem old fashioned but all family therapist seem to agree about the fact that family has borders and that breaking the borders of the family even slightly at the beginning can bring to unpleasant consequences in future.

This kind of lifestyle is good for people who want like teenagers a never ending dating life but not good for people who want a traditional family.

Cheers, Franco

Quote:
Originally posted by Tami
hi,guys,I live in the US only for 3 1/2 months and sometimes I feel I'm form the another planet,I can't understand american life. For example,how to stay friends with your ex girlfriend after splitting and still to hung out with her everywhere. In Russia and in Belarus,in all Past USSR countries you will never see a couple together after they did split . Before I met my future husband in June,he wrote me he split with his girlfriend and he is single. Now,a few days ago I found in the computer files with the pics .My husband always puts dates on all files. So I learned they still were together even they split and they did hung out together everywhere. How it can be ????? He still was with her and he was going to meet me. For me it is difficult to understand this.... He told me I didn't reach his level to understand more what does friendship mean....he is 51 y.o.,I'm only 31. Also he told me they are still friends. Sorry,but in my opinion, you can't f... your friend...or it is normal for the US??????? It is still hard for me to understand some american mentality.... I can't!!!! It seems crazy for me!!! Now if he would have a dinner with her I would feel a fulish and I would consider he has no respect and love to me!!!! I have to meet his ex girlfriends because sometimes they have common business. I feel starnge because I love him. It hurts me so much!!!



Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally posted by inlove
Most of my male friends are in stable relationships already, as well as myself, so there is no sexual tension invloved.
I have two single male friends. One of them, at some point, constituted a potential boyfriend material, but once I got smitten with my prince, this situation resolved itself.. We still play tennis regularly, have lunches once in a while, and my boyfriend does not mind.



Then under Tanya's logic you are fat and ugly

And I bet anything you are not


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
do agree with you that both spouses should agree on this matter...I wouldnt marry my husband if he didnt...he happens to have completely the same beliefs


If you both agree on the matter, then there is no problem at all. It is something each couple must decide for themselves and the important thing is for both people to agree and to be happy with what they decide.

Quote:
it is not possible to make someone change his beliefs that is why the best solution is to find a companion who shares your views on life


I agree with you completely! The problem is that sometimes people don't discuss such matters in detail until after they are married and it is too late. Then, as they begin to find out more about their partner's beliefs, they are quite surprised and disappointed to learn that they do not coincide with their own. This is just one more reason why people should take the time to really get to know each other before getting married....


Posted by: FrancoPUA

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill
If you both agree on the matter, then there is no problem at all. It is something each couple must decide for themselves and the important thing is for both people to agree and to be happy with what they decide.



I agree with you completely! The problem is sometimes people don't discuss such matters in detail until they are already married and it is too late. Then, as they begin to find out more about their partner's beliefs, they are quite surprised and disappointed to learn that they do not coincide with their own. This is just one more reason whay people should take the time to really get to know each other before getting married....


Agree fully on this. Falling in love may be such a strong emotional experience that people "forget" to check about their values. Some researchers think that falling in love is a kind of psychosis which impairs reality testing. So at worst one of the two may find out later that smoking marjuaana is ok for the other but not ok for oneself.

Franco


Posted by: FrancoPUA

Quote:
Originally posted by Jerico
I have to say that I agree Tanya in her thinking
I had many woman write me and now that i am married to my Russian wife I have cut off all contact with these woman.
Some were just penpals but it is a courtesy issue for me.
However my wife penpals with many of the guys that wrote to her in the past still.
She has told most that she is married now but they still write and write and write.
It bothers me a little bit.
Being a guy I know these guys probably are looking for more than just a penpal even knowing she is married!!
She doen`t see this she says but I dont like it.
Especially now since i did all the work and brought her to the USA
She chats with people because she is bored right now so I dont say anything about it.
I would be lying if i said it did not bother me.
Jerry


Look at the answer I gave to Tami. I think you should have a serious talk with her. My RW tried at the beginning to have me convinced that it is ok to chat with males in the internet.

I sat down at the computer and showed her how fast I can have at least 5 girls to date me for the next week.

She stopped using the chats fast like the light when she saw that..

Most of the guys who are in contact with women in Internet look for much more than friendship. She is giving you mixed messages and as a man you should call her on it.

Giving mixed messages is seductive and women use it largely to keep the erotic tension up in the relationship.. sometimes also to remind the guy that there is competition..

Remind her that you can be object of competition, too..

One of the skills a person should have to be in a family and committed relationship is to be able to take boredom. Life is not a never ending party. Fun can be 90% of the time but not 100%. And also if one is bored there are movies, tennis, theather, opera, literature, jogging...

To believe that life can be 100% a never ending fun is teenage behavior and if one is a teenager in the relationship the other is always put to pay a price for it.

Franco


Posted by: FrancoPUA

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill
But what is a marriage worth without trust and respect? And if you truly trust and respect your spouse, why should you feel threatened by his ex? Of course, there are some situations where the ex might be jealous of his marriage or may try to cause problems....But if she is a nice, supportive person--what is the problem? Perhaps you could get to know her a little bit--maybe you will even like her and you and she will become friends yourselves

(Or am I being naive? )

And I do understand Flash's point about him being willing to make sacrifices for his wife's happiness---but at the same time, why should a wife dictate with whom her husband can and can not form friendships? It seems a little controlling to me. Again, there may be some situations where the friend in question is a rotten person and a bad influence....But if we're talking about a normal, decent human being--doesn't he have the right to socialize with that person? Next will she tell him where he is allowed to work and what clothes he is allowed to wear? My opinion is that even when two people are married, each person still has a right to make certain decisions for him or herself. Neither spouse should become a dictator.

But this is just my opinion.


It is not a question of feeling threatned. It is a question of which is the FRAME OF REFERENCE in which the couple wants to build the family.

A couple should agree about the FRAME they are in. If the frame is "post modern freedom" then they should agree on it, if the frame is "traditional family" they should agree on it.

Very often the wildest of the two tries to NOT TAKE POSITION about the frame and TEASES the other brain.

If my wife´s frame of reference would be that it is ok to spend weekends going to clubs and dancing alone without husband in weekends then I would peacock and go to dance and have fun myself alone.

When we met I was peackoked and dancing a lot with her in clubs.. she saw how much fun I can organize to people.. and how ladies at the place liked the fun I organize..

She was the first one to tell me after having seen that that it is better for us to not go to "spoiled" places and have fun visiting theathers, sport centers and traveling together instead of visiting clubs.

Places like clubs where INSTANT GRATIFICATION is the non spoken rule do not fit with the behavior of a married couple and naked pictures on computer REALLY do not fit with the frame of a married couple.

If I would find naked pictures from the computer of my wife I would show her the naked pictures of my former girlfriends for sure and tell her that next week I am going to have dinner with one of them.


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Proud
Then under Tanya's logic you are fat and ugly


Either that, or I sleep with all of them.

Seriously, acknowlegement that friendships between men and women do exist requires admission of the "impossible" fact that men and women can enjoy each other's company without wanting to share a bed. It is hard to do for people who see themselves as interesting and socially worthy only when it comes to sex.


Posted by: Tami

Dear Jill,I didn't want to offend you. I was born in Georgia and I lived there for 20 years,my father is georgian.So you live there for not a long time and this kind of friendship is normal for you,but not for all Caucasus!!!! That's why I called you "strange",because I supposed you to be armenian.....In Caucasus ppl have traditional family orientation and we have different moral values there. For example,it is a big shame to have many affairs or not to keep fidelity to spouse...Men can have affairs but women-never. Caucasus women's behaviour is different than european's..


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by inlove
Either that, or I sleep with all of them.

Seriously, acknowlegement that friendships between men and women do exist requires admission of the "impossible" fact that men and women can enjoy each other's company without wanting to share a bed. It is hard to do for people who see themselves as interesting and socially worthy only when it comes to sex.


Not necessarily that you are ugly or sleep with your "friends"; but, whatever you say, i don't believe that at some point you didn't have any attraction for either of your "friends" (you even said that you did see some of them as potential b/f material)...so, here you go, there was an attraction at some point...this proves my words that "pure friendship" is impossible...i believe in family values and i do agree with Franco that it is unhealthy to keep all these friendships after you get married, unless your spouse is fine with it....is my spouse more important to me than any friends taken together? hell, yes!!! i asked him yesterday what he thought about friendships like that and he said "Impossible!"...so i don't believe that it is American lifestyle that gives birth to opinions like that...it is truly individual moral values!


Posted by: Vyesna

I think if someone thinks they can, they can. If they think they can't, then probably they can't-- but don't impose your own weaknesses on everyone else and say no one can. But then how does one who "can't" manage to say, maintain professional relationships at work with co workers or with clients over the long term of the opposite sex they find attractive? What if you have to work late with that person some time? Does that mean as soon as you're alone you'll hit the floor?

The "can't" theory presumes that having an attraction to someone of the opposite sex means you inevitably end up in the sack with that person. I'd like to think most of us have more self control than that.

As for people who go around calling other people pigs whom they don't even know, I think that says far more about you then about the "pigs" you are so sure are to be disdained and put down.


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyesna
I think if someone thinks they can, they can. If they think they can't, then probably they can't-- but don't impose your own weaknesses on everyone else and say no one can. But then how does one who "can't" manage to say, maintain professional relationships at work with co workers or with clients over the long term of the opposite sex they find attractive? What if you have to work late with that person some time? Does that mean as soon as you're alone you'll hit the floor?

The "can't" theory presumes that having an attraction to someone of the opposite sex means you inevitably end up in the sack with that person. I'd like to think most of us have more self control than that.

As for people who go around calling other people pigs whom they don't even know, I think that says far more about you then about the "pigs" you are so sure are to be disdained and put down.

I don't impose, but defend my own point of view...Everyone has the right to do that...If you read my posts i said earlier that it is my opinion and You are entitled to yours!
I am in Love with my husband and don't see any other men anything but People with ZERO sex appeal....and then you mean to say that if you are attracted to someone, a co-worker, for instance, you have to sleep with this person instead hitting the floor? LOL i'd also like to believe that we are not animals and have more self control to remain on the professional level...
And lastly, never once did i call anyone a pig...so before posting any replies, plz engage in some preliminary reading


Posted by: Vyesna

Tanya,

My post was directed not at you only but generally. But you are the one who said on page 2:

"disagree completely...my opinion is that there is no friendship possible between a man and a woman and i will stick to it... Texas Proud, i don't believe your future wife will be fine with that and I don't believe any woman will be fine with that...of course it depends what you mean by friendship and how far in your case it goes..."

That statement says that it is not possible for ANYONE-- so yes, you can not want it for yourself (fine) and you can even think that it's not possible, but when you say it's not possible, you are imposing your views on everyone else-- you are saying no one can do it, just because you don't think it's possible. You backed away from that position later, but this was the original position you took and quite frankly, you totally contradict yourself when you say "it's just my opinion" -- when you say it's not possible between a man and woman period, you are going beyond opinion to judgment on everyone, not just yourself.


Posted by: tanya3475

Yes it is my opinion and My point of view that it is not possible...i am not saying Vyesna, you have to think the way i think, am I? i am saying that it is my belief and i will defend it!


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Yes it is my opinion and My point of view that it is not possible...i am not saying Vyesna, you have to think the way i think, am I? i am saying that it is my belief and i will defend it!


When you say it's impossible, you are saying that no one could possibly believe it, right? If it's not possible, it's not possible, and beliefs are irrelevant.


Posted by: Vyesna

The pig comment was Tami's, not yours. I never indicated it was yours, I was making a general comment.


Posted by: tanya3475

wait, i say in My opinion it is impossible which means i don't believe in it


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
wait, i say in My opinion it is impossible which means i don't believe in it


You don't believe in it?

Okay, let's clear this up. Is it possible or impossible for men and women to be friends even if both are not fat and ugly (and the woman isn't an American-- which of course means she's fat and ugly, I know) ?


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyesna
You don't believe in it?

Okay, let's clear this up. Is it possible or impossible for men and women to be friends even if both are not fat and ugly (and the woman isn't an American-- which of course means she's fat and ugly, I know) ?

LOL, i think we just confuse each other...let me try to reply to your questions
Yes, I believe in it.....I believe (mind its my opinion and i respect if you hold a different one) it is not possible for men and women to be friends....even if the woamn isn't an American....and of course, there are many attractive American women as there are many ugly Russian ones...i just don't believe in intersexual friendships...but, if you, Vyesna, do, i respect it....
is that clear enough, or should i explain anything else


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
LOL, i think we just confuse each other...let me try to reply to your questions
Yes, I believe in it.....I believe (mind its my opinion and i respect if you hold a different one) it is not possible for men and women to be friends....even if the woamn isn't an American....and of course, there are many attractive American women as there are many ugly Russian ones...i just don't believe in intersexual friendships...but, if you, Vyesna, do, i respect it....
is that clear enough, or should i explain anything else


Okay, because you were saying it isn't possible, then it is possible... fine, you have the right to your opinion, no one disputes that. But by having an opinion that it's impossible, you are imposing it on everyone else, because you are saying it is possible for no one, KWIM? You can go around believing that, but by believing that, you are automatically judging those of us who do have platonic relationships and are thinking perhaps that we are in danger or more likely to cheat on our spouses than you-- that is the logical conclusion of saying that is impossible. I personally think that is a very judgmental position to take.


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyesna
Okay, because you were saying it isn't possible, then it is possible... fine, you have the right to your opinion, no one disputes that. But by having an opinion that it's impossible, you are imposing it on everyone else, because you are saying it is possible for no one, KWIM? You can go around believing that, but by believing that, you are automatically judging those of us who do have platonic relationships and are thinking perhaps that we are in danger or more likely to cheat on our spouses than you-- that is the logical conclusion of saying that is impossible. I personally think that is a very judgmental position to take.

I never judge anyone, if it is impossible in my eyes, i don't say that in your eyes it can be impossible too, otherwise why would you say it is possible... thats how the whole conversation started untill someone told me i was wrong...if you tell someone he is wrong, isnt that judgmental? so after that happened i admit i became a little "judgemental" which i didnt mean to be, but only tried to defend my position...and lol i dont think you are in danger...whatever works for you


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
I never judge anyone, if it is impossible in my eyes, i don't say that in your eyes it can be impossible too, otherwise why would you say it is possible... thats how the whole conversation started untill someone told me i was wrong...if you tell someone he is wrong, isnt that judgmental? so after that happened i admit i became a little "judgemental" which i didnt mean to be, but only tried to defend my position...and lol i dont think you are in danger...whatever works for you


I think they were saying you were wrong that it's impossible... the statement impossible is what got people off, not that you don't want it in your relationship. I'm just saying that by saying it's impossible for ANYONE, anyone at all, not just you, you are being judgmental-- you are judging that others relationships must inevitably be sexual, when that may not be the case. I don't know, maybe you are right-- I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I have experiences to the contrary of your assertion, so I'm inclined to think that it is possible. At any rate, I'm not going to say what is and what isn't possible in life because I haven't experienced all of human experience to know what is and isn't possible.

I don't have any male friends now really because I don't have time (don't really have time for female friends much either-- except to meet up with old friends when we have the chance, which is rare and only one lives near me and she's moving anyhow), but I did in college have male friends who were attractive to other women (they were not fat or ugly, there just was no chemistry), but not to me and jumping in the sack was not ever hinted at by either side. We would share our stories of our romantic adventures and that was pretty much that.

By "hitting the floor" I meant having sex -- on the floor in the office.


Posted by: tanya3475

LOL i see, thanks for enlightning me what "hitting the floor" means...
i used to have male friends too before i got married but in the end they all wanted to "hit the floor", so thats where my presumptions come from...otherwise if you say it is possible for you, i do believe so... thanks for letting me know where the problem was, maybe i wasnt just watching my language, because i meant something different


Posted by: Vyesna

Also, you didn't answer my other question-- if it's impossible for two attractive people of the opposite sex to be friends without sleeping with each other, is it possible for two attractive people of the opposite sex to be co-workers, working closely on projects over a long period of time to not sleep with each other? And if the latter is possible, how do you distinguish that situation, and the factors that make it possible, from the former?


Posted by: FlashingEyes

I think using the word "judgemental" here is denotatively inaccurate. While the word is broadly abused by the undereducated, its basic historical meaning is a person who imposes some form of punishment as a result of a formal process, using powers granted by the state. The idea that it is wrong to "judge" comes from the Bible, in which case the meaning of "judge" is actually closer to "rule" or "govern". It is the opinion of the Bible that only the laws of God are legitimate and that any attempt by any man to formally rule or govern outside of these laws is in violation of the laws of God. To corrupt this meaning with the recent popular meaning of "judge" with is nothing more than to hold an opinion about something, is a demonstration of ignorance of the true meaning of the words one uses, lacking thought and instead relying on repeating phrases out of context like Frost's poem on "good fences make good neighbors" described. Certainly anyone who uses this corruption of the true meaning of this phrase to try to beat down free speach and recognition that some things in this world are absolute is doing something not just ignorant but morally reprehensible.

I agree with Tanya that maintaining friendships with people of the opposite sex, and especially old boyfriends/girlfriends, is inviting temptation into a relationship, and that all people can be exposed to this temptation if they feel attraction at all, and further I would say that maintaining these relationships should be considered just as intelligent as other cavalier life choices such as not wearing a seat belt, leaving your front door unlocked, leaving a lit candle burning while you are away, and gambling in casinos with the idea that you can win in the long run.


Posted by: Vyesna

Flash, by saying it is impossible, is not that establishing a rule by which other people are to be governed-- if it's impossible, that's a rule of life, it would seem, that applies to all...but I'm definitely not going to argue with you about semantics.

I am only arguing about the statement that it is impossible PERIOD for men and women to be friends. Whether it is wise to maintain friendships with exes is an entirely different question which I will not opine on as I think it really depends on the situation.


Posted by: Pin Boy

anyone else agree...this thread, as interesting as it's been, has run its course???

pb


Posted by: FlashingEyes

No it's not.

If I force you to follow my rule, the you are governed by it.

If I state my opinion, and give you the opportunity to learn from it, then you may become more educated, but are not ruled in what you choose to learn.

You are wise to back off from your missemantic abuse of the true meaning of judge, as it was improper of you to suggest that Tanya doesn't have a complete right to free speach, and especially by abusing a phrase taken out of context that you obviously don't understand.

It is impossible PERIOD for men and women to be friends without risking temptation for that friendship to become something more - something sexual - assuming both parties are capable of feeling sexual attraction to the opposite sex - this risk is greatly enhanced when the person chosen as a friend is already someone that is strongly sexually attractive to the chooser, such as a former boyfriend/girlfriend, and least when the person is strongly sexually unattractive to the chooser.


Posted by: FlashingEyes

pb, if you are bored with the thread, why not just stop reading it? I never understand people who decide they are bored with a thread and then want to insist that those interested in it stop posting to it!


Posted by: Vyesna

Where did I say she does not have freedom of speech? I said she is imposing her opinion on others by saying that it is impossible, and by saying it is impossible, she is saying that the rules of life are such as she has interpreted them-- ie, the question is whether it is impossible and she has determined that it is impossible for all-- that is saying that this is a rule of life that governs all, not just her.

You happen to agree with her, fine. YOu both can have whatever opinons you want, but by saying that it is impossible, you are judging the rest of us who do what you say is impossible. No one argues that you have the right to do that-- sure you can. But you're still judging.


Posted by: FlashingEyes

Since you conclude that the fact of her having an opinion is the same as her "imposing" her opinion, that is where you suggest that she does not have a complete right to free speach.

What has happened is that she has stated a logical, reasonable opinion, you have become offended by her opinon by your own choice, and then you have blamed her for "imposing" her opinion and suggested she should not. You are entirely in the wrong, and she is entirely in the right.

I am not "judging" anyone, unless what you really mean to say is that I'm holding an opinion. To "judge" someone in a way that is different from the meaning of just holding an opinion, it would be necessary for me to have some authority over you and to have some ability to impose some punishment on you if you don't follow my rules. You are merely demonstrating your lack of understanding of the language.

People who respond to opinions they don't like by trying to squelch those opinions by saying they are "judgements" or trying to squelch them through other means, are people who need to take a long hard look at themselves and ask themselves why they are so afraid of others' opinions?


Posted by: Vyesna

Flash,

I'm inclined to think that according to you she is entirely in the right and I am entirely in the wrong, because you agree with her and not with you. By saying I'm entirely in the wrong, you are squelching my opinion and those that agree with me.

I never said she was wrong. I simply said, that to state it is impossible for everyone, is to impose her view on everyone, because she is stating that something that is true for her is true for all. That is imposing a judgment on others. But obviously, we are never going to agree, so what's the point?

And who's afriad of what? Why, if I disagree with you, both on semantics and on the substance of your opinion, am I afraid of it? Or are only those who agree with you not afraid of your opinion? Those whose arguments are built on faulty grounds are always the ones accusing their opponents of being "afraid", "bitter", "jealous", etc. It strikes me that you are the one who is having the emotional reaction, not me, by assigning fear to me, when you could hardly know my current emotional state.

I was dissecting what it means to say that something is "impossible" for everyone-- and the way I see it, it is imposing an opinion on all-- saying it is impossible for all. I don't think that freedom of speech, fear of others opinions, and the like have anything to do with that. But that's as far as I'm going because as all of us forum members know, this could go on forever and just give everyone a headache. So I'm done. Feel free to go on and on as long as you like and make as many presumptions about me as you like-- exercise your freedom of speech.


Posted by: FlashingEyes

No she is entirely in the right because she has the right to her opinion.

And you are entirely in the wrong because you are misusing a phrase you don't even understand in an attempt to squelch her opinion, and right to free speech.

Her opinion is not imposed on you - you can agree with it or not, but she has the right to have an opinion, and even an opinion about you.

I am not concerned that we disagree, but I am concerned that you are afraid of Tanya holding an opinion that could apply to everyone, even you. She has the right to her opinion. Are you scared that her opinion is right and is that why you accuse her of making "impositions" on you?

By the way "impose" is another word you don't understand - the meaning implies something "compulsory, by authority, [by] force," or, alternately, "unfair" or by "fraud". There is no "force", no "authority", no "compuls[ion]", no "fraud", nothing "unfair" about her having an opinion.

She has an opinion, and her opinion applies to you, but it remains her opinion, and is not imposed on you - you can accept it or not.

To attack her opinion as if she doesn't have the right to have an opinion about you is not only illogical it is immoral, it violates her right to free speech, not to mention free thought, which are both basic human rights.


Posted by: tanya3475

I don't understand why many people here get angry of what I said...i once again repeat "It is my opinion" ok? I don't impose it on you and by your thinking I do you only prove the weakness of your point...I do have freedom of speech and if you don't like it, oh well, not my fault...it seems like it's not me but you guys here who try to impose smth on ME...FlashingEyes is right, you judge more than I do...do you guys by any chance work in the legal system? if you do, i don't have any further questions here


Posted by: tanya3475

FlashingEyes,
thank you for support


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Not necessarily that you are ugly or sleep with your "friends"; but, whatever you say, i don't believe that at some point you didn't have any attraction for either of your "friends" (you even said that you did see some of them as potential b/f material)...so, here you go, there was an attraction at some point...this proves my words that "pure friendship" is impossible...i believe in family values and i do agree with Franco that it is unhealthy to keep all these friendships after you get married, unless your spouse is fine with it....is my spouse more important to me than any friends taken together? hell, yes!!! i asked him yesterday what he thought about friendships like that and he said "Impossible!"...so i don't believe that it is American lifestyle that gives birth to opinions like that...it is truly individual moral values!


Surprisingly, I believe in family values too, and so do my friends. That's why we are friends, not "friends".. I find some of them quite attractive, but it does not mean that I'm attracted to them sexually. Hell, if we wanted to have sex, we had plenty of time and opportunity to do it before I met my boyfriend. Why would we want to do it now?

In regards to the friend who constituted a potential boyfriend material, it was our mutual decision not to pursue a relationship, because neither of us had a time for a serios relationship at the time, and we valued our friendship too much to complicate it with casual sex..So it always has been a pure friendship, although it had a potential of becoming a sexual relationship once, but this momentum had long gone.


Posted by: tanya3475

Inlove, im very happy for you and your ability to sustain friendships with opposite sex...not all people are like that and i do think it all depends on personality and personal values...are some people capable of keeping intersexual friendships? I quess they are, based on what you say...in my experience it never happened...I again will quote Oscar Wilde as I think him a true genius: "We are not here to air our moral prejudices". I do think this discussion has lived way too long and it's time to draw the line


Posted by: Texas Proud

Tanya,

I am the one who said you were wrong.. and I know it was harsh... but let me try and rephrase your comment..

By saying it is impossible that a man and a woman can be friends, it is making a statement of fact, not opinion. That is why I said you were wrong. Let's say you said it was your opinion that the sky was green. It does not matter that it is your opinion, it is wrong.

Now, if you had said 'I do not think that a married person should have friends of the opposite sex because it can cause trouble in the marriage".. that is an opinion. It leave other people with thier opinion that it is just fine to have friends.

Do you understand why this makes a difference?


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Proud
Tanya,

I am the one who said you were wrong.. and I know it was harsh... but let me try and rephrase your comment..

By saying it is impossible that a man and a woman can be friends, it is making a statement of fact, not opinion. That is why I said you were wrong. Let's say you said it was your opinion that the sky was green. It does not matter that it is your opinion, it is wrong.

Now, if you had said 'I do not think that a married person should have friends of the opposite sex because it can cause trouble in the marriage".. that is an opinion. It leave other people with thier opinion that it is just fine to have friends.

Do you understand why this makes a difference?

Do I believe that the sky is green? NO Do I believe that there can be no friendship between a man and a woman? Yes These are different things. The color of the sky is the Universal truth, but the possibility of this kind of friendship is not. It's like faith in God. If one person says he believes in God it means God exists in his opinion, if another person says he doesn't, it means in his reality there is no God. Who is right and who is wrong? What you just said doesn't make sense to me, because im entitled to my own beliefs in life and one of my beliefs is that friendship between opposite sexes is if not impossible, then extremely hard to sustain...


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Do I believe that the sky is green? NO Do I believe that there can be no friendship between a man and a woman? Yes These are different things. The color of the sky is the Universal truth, but the possibility of this kind of friendship is not. It's like faith in God. If one person says he believes in God it means God exists in his opinion, if another person says he doesn't, it means in his reality there is no God. Who is right and who is wrong? What you just said doesn't make sense to me, because im entitled to my own beliefs in life and one of my beliefs is that friendship between opposite sexes is if not impossible, then extremely hard to sustain...


Tanya,
Nobody can prove the existance of God, but you can easily prove the excistance of cross-gender friendships. There are people who don't believe in successful international or interracional relatioships due to cultural and social differences, but it has nothing to do with the fact that those relationships exist..


Posted by: tanya3475

If you can prove it, great, in my life i couldnt


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by Texas Proud
Tanya,

I am the one who said you were wrong.. and I know it was harsh... but let me try and rephrase your comment..

By saying it is impossible that a man and a woman can be friends, it is making a statement of fact, not opinion. That is why I said you were wrong. Let's say you said it was your opinion that the sky was green. It does not matter that it is your opinion, it is wrong.

Now, if you had said 'I do not think that a married person should have friends of the opposite sex because it can cause trouble in the marriage".. that is an opinion. It leave other people with thier opinion that it is just fine to have friends.

Do you understand why this makes a difference?


Thanks. That's more or less what I was trying to say-- the statement of fact is stating that it's impossible for everyone.


Posted by: FlashingEyes

Tex,

Sorry no dice.

It is my opinion that it is impossible for a man and woman to be friends without risking sexual temptation will enter the friendship, provided we have a normal man and woman in the sence of sexual preferences, etc.

This is my opinion. I can say "I believe..." "I feel" or even omit these words and they are understood. Even the belief in a fact is an opinion. If I say the world is not flat, that is my opinion, which I can support with a lot of factual evidence. To say that belief in a fact makes something NOT an opinion shows a poor understanding of what an "opinion" is.

By the way, according to the aforementioned Oscar Wilde, in his discussion of whether art imitates life or life imitates art, he stated that the only reason we claim the sky is blue and not green is that artists have presented it to us as such. I'm surprised if Tanya is such a Wilde follower she would have missed this.

My favorite words by Wilde:
Poem - Reading Gaol (second place: His Voice)
Story - The Happy Prince
Essay - On Socialism


Posted by: tanya3475

FlashingEyes,
you are right I missed the statement of Wilde you were talking about, but it seems to me talking to all these supporters of "intersexual" friendships that i have to prove something to them, but in reality i dont have to...from the very beginning i was saying it was my opinion and belief and it still is, while they were trying to dig my words, i dont know why, and prove something to me i Don't and Won't believe in...they get angry about it- their problem, im tired of this discussion as it will lead nowhere...they say "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", which means that everyone of us sees reality differently (and we have the complete right for it), but i don't think we have the right to try prove to someone something he doesnt believe in...they think they are smarter than me and know life better? i don't think so...i have enough knowledge and life experience to hold my own opinions...


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
FlashingEyes,
you are right I missed the statement of Wilde you were talking about, but it seems to me talking to all these supporters of "intersexual" friendships that i have to prove something to them, but in reality i dont have to...from the very beginning i was saying it was my opinion and belief and it still is, while they were trying to dig my words, i dont know why, and prove something to me i Don't and Won't believe in...they get angry about it- their problem, im tired of this discussion as it will lead nowhere...they say "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", which means that everyone of us sees reality differently (and we have the complete right for it), but i don't think we have the right to try prove to someone something he doesnt believe in...they think they are smarter than me and know life better? i don't think so...i have enough knowledge and life experience to hold my own opinions...


Who's angry? We're having a friendly internet disagreement. That's what forums are for. I would appreciate it if you would also not make assumptions about my or any one else's emotional state. And actually, you, by saying it is impossible for anyone to have platonic friendships with someone of the opposite sex is saying that you know life better-- ie, you are telling me and everyone else that neither I (nor they) can possibly have the kind of relationship we know we've had. You say it hasn't been possible for YOU-- I believe it hasn't been possible for you. That's your reality-- but not mine. Why are you so sure it's impossible for me, and Texas, and Jill, and others who disagree with you? Do you know us? How do you know what we can and cannot do? The fact is, you don't.

At any rate, you don't want your husband to have them, you don't have them, that's fine, that's great. No one's forcing you to. But why rain on our parades? We can and will have them in our world, where such possibilities exist. I'm just sorry your world is so limited.


Posted by: tanya3475

The words you just written prove to me you are in reality angry and i have no intention to discuss anything further...nothing you said on this forum makes any sense to me, except that i see anger and spite in your words...you plz keep your opinion and i will keep mine, but let me decide as well if my life is limite or not


Posted by: inlove

The longer I live on this planet, the more I come to the conclusion that everything is possible. Our subjective opinions might reflect objective reality, or might not, it does not matter to the state of this objective reality. One might believe in success of interracial relationships or might not, it does not have anything to do with the fact that successful interracial relationships exist.


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by inlove
The longer I live on this planet, the more I come to the conclusion that everything is possible. Our subjective opinions might reflect objective reality, or might not, it does not matter to the state of this objective reality. One might believe in success of interracial relationships or might not, it does not have anything to do with the fact that successful interracial relationships exist.


Quite true. I would like to think that I have it all figured out, but I don't. Unfortunately, some people are sure they have it figured out for everyone else as well as themselves.


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
The words you just written prove to me you are in reality angry and i have no intention to discuss anything further...nothing you said on this forum makes any sense to me, except that i see anger and spite in your words...you plz keep your opinion and i will keep mine, but let me decide as well if my life is limite or not


What spite Tanya? I feel no spite towards you, rather compassion. I think you are the one who is reacting angrily. But you're right-- we don't agree and we never will. But a lot of other people agree with me-- so I don't know that you can be so sure you are right. I'm not sure I am right, but I'm not going to say what is possible or impossible for anyone else. Anyway, if you can't take the heat.....


Posted by: tanya3475

I never said i figured it out for you, i said that was my opinion and im not going to repeat it over and over again...i said many times before if you feel this way, fine with me, but i feel differently and it never makes me angry, what makes me upset is your inability to understand what i was trying to say...but fine with me...and one more thing, i really can live without your compassion, because compassion is for the weak and id like to think myself strong...if i happen to have different beliefs from you it doesn't make me a weaker person, on the contrary i love arguments, but only when the opponent sees my point, whereas you failed in it...but if you really desire to continue this useless discussion, cool with me...bring it on


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
I never said i figured it out for you, i said that was my opinion and im not going to repeat it over and over again...i said many times before if you feel this way, fine with me, but i feel differently and it never makes me angry, what makes me upset is your inability to understand what i was trying to say...but fine with me...and one more thing, i really can live without your compassion, because compassion is for the weak and id like to think myself strong...if i happen to have different beliefs from you it doesn't make me a weaker person, on the contrary i love arguments, but only when the opponent sees my point, whereas you failed in it...but if you really desire to continue this useless discussion, cool with me...bring it on


I do see your point. You think it's impossible for everyone. Fine, you have a right to that opinion, but in stating that it's impossible for everyone, you are telling me it's impossible for me too-- and how can you really know that? You can't. And I'm telling you, and so are other people, that even if it's not impossible for you, it's not impossible for us, so that means....it's not impossible. So what? I do feel sorry for someone who believes that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible. It means you are missing out. That's your choice...but I feel it is a limiting one. I'm not telling you to change your mind. Thanks for helping me procrastinate at work. No hard feelings, really.


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyesna
I do see your point. You think it's impossible for everyone. Fine, you have a right to that opinion, but in stating that it's impossible for everyone, you are telling me it's impossible for me too-- and how can you really know that? You can't. And I'm telling you, and so are other people, that even if it's not impossible for you, it's not impossible for us, so that means....it's not impossible. So what? I do feel sorry for someone who believes that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible. It means you are missing out. That's your choice...but I feel it is a limiting one. I'm not telling you to change your mind. Thanks for helping me procrastinate at work. No hard feelings, really.

I am procrastinating here too lol...well i admit i said it was impossible, but i meant for me, in my reality, in my world...i dont want you to think the same way...and i never meant to impose something on you or anyone else...i dont think im missing out on anything, because if i dont believe in it, it means i dont miss out...(see you are saying you are sorry for me because im missing out means that you try to analyze my life without knowing me too) And you can't do that either, according to your own logic...If i tell you you are missing out because you dont know what true love and devotion to one man is, you will get defensive, right? and i wont blame you for that, so plz dont try to judge my life by saying im missing out on smth...you seem to go against your own logic...but no hard feelings here either, sometimes i do like to get into discussions like that


Posted by: inlove

If somebody should get defensive here, it should be me, since I'm apparently a fat and ugly person with questionable moral values. Heh!


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
I am procrastinating here too lol...well i admit i said it was impossible, but i meant for me, in my reality, in my world...i dont want you to think the same way...and i never meant to impose something on you or anyone else...i dont think im missing out on anything, because if i dont believe in it, it means i dont miss out...(see you are saying you are sorry for me because im missing out means that you try to analyze my life without knowing me too) And you can't do that either, according to your own logic...If i tell you you are missing out because you dont know what true love and devotion to one man is, you will get defensive, right? and i wont blame you for that, so plz dont try to judge my life by saying im missing out on smth...you seem to go against your own logic...but no hard feelings here either, sometimes i do like to get into discussions like that


Yeah well... maybe you're not missing out. But you'll never know will you? There's things I don't really want to try-- and I fully admit, I'm missing out. Oh well, one can't explore every possibility in life.


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by inlove
If somebody should get defensive here, it should be me, since I'm apparently a fat and ugly person with questionable moral values. Heh!


Impossible!


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by inlove
If somebody should get defensive here, it should be me, since I'm apparently a fat and ugly person with questionable moral values. Heh!

i thought we sorted out the "fat and ugly" issue already lol should we just post pictures on this forum so these kind of problems would be dismissed?


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyesna
Yeah well... maybe you're not missing out. But you'll never know will you? There's things I don't really want to try-- and I fully admit, I'm missing out. Oh well, one can't explore every possibility in life.

Who told you i never tried? Of course i did thats how i came to these kinds of beliefs and conclusions...if i told you i used to have only male friends before i got married? well, for me it never worked out, but i did try once


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
Who told you i never tried? Of course i did thats how i came to these kinds of beliefs and conclusions...if i told you i used to have only male friends before i got married? well, for me it never worked out, but i did try once


Sorry it didn't work out. I would say better luck next time, but in your case it doesn't apply.


Posted by: tanya3475

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyesna
Sorry it didn't work out. I would say better luck next time, but in your case it doesn't apply.

Exactly, in my case I've had it...I'm married, happy with my man and 3 months pregnant! ive had a long journey before i finally found what i want, travelled the globe and tried many things, so i think i deserved to have some steady beliefs of my own


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally posted by tanya3475
i thought we sorted out the "fat and ugly" issue already lol should we just post pictures on this forum so these kind of problems would be dismissed?


Tanya, I was just joking.
By the way, I've tried to upload an avatar some time ago, but could never manage to make the file small enough, without it becoming inrecognizable.