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Are all Russians atheist?
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Posted by: Mr. Questions

Hi Everyone!

I wanted to ask the guys in the crowd if any of you had encountered a situation where you found out that your lady is an atheist.

I can understand how banning religion during Soviet times made this happen but what are the issues you may currently be dealing with in your relationship?

How open are Russian women to religion. Do they really not believe in God. Do they want to learn about religion?

I'm also curious to know how they value marriage. Those of us that are Christians and get married understand the rules that need to be honored. But do Russian woman believe that they can cheat once in a while or make mistakes. What is their honor system like? How does an atheist establish an honest marriage?

Thanks for your help all.

Posted by: ConnerVT

No, most of the people in Russia are not Atheists. To be an Atheist, you have to be convinced that there is no God or supreme being.

The majority of Russians are Orthodox Catholic. As you move south and east, you begin to find more Muslims. Several other Western churches have begun missionary work there, so you will find pockets of other religions. But you are correct, the Soviet era did put a strong arm on organized religion, making it unhealthy for people to practice their religion. Because of this, it is more common to find people who have belief in their religion, but are akin to those Westerners who show up at church on Easter and Christmas.

Posted by: Eryk

>>I wanted to ask the guys in the >>crowd if any of you had encountered >>a situation where you found out that >>your lady is an atheist.

"Religion is the opium of the masses." ?

>>I can understand how banning >>religion during Soviet times made >>this happen but what are the issues >>you may currently be dealing with in >>your relationship?

No issues really. There is a tendency in the FSU to give credence to harmless superstitions like "horoscopes" and "tarot cards" etc., but the nastier and more violent manifestations of superstition (Christianity, Islam, Judaeism) are not so closely followed, generally speaking.

>>How open are Russian women to >>religion. Do they really not believe in >>God. Do they want to learn about >>religion?

As with all people, some are open to the suggestion and some are not. For those in the former category, it would be as well to understand the precepts of the Othodox faith before attempting to debate religion with them/her.

>>while or make mistakes. What is >>their honor system like? How does >>an atheist establish an honest >>marriage?

Oh, that is easy. You just have to forget about the obsession with "sex". Christians do not have a monopoly regarding the concept that "lying is wrong" and consequently the idea of "cheating on" (lying to) your partner is "ploha" in most cultures (if not "all"). All you have to realise is there is nothing special about being a Christian and nothing special about lying about "sex". Lies are "Lies" and there are an almost unlimited number of superstitions to adhere to.

Eryk

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Questions How open are Russian women to religion. Do they really not believe in God. Do they want to learn about religion?

The majority of Russians are not atheists, but agnostics. A large number of them visits a church once in a while, mostly in time for religious holidays, weddings, funerals and in times of personal crisis.. You can meet devoted church goers once in a while, truely religious people, but they are few and between.. Russians associate a church visit mostly with a cultural tradition, as opposed to the deep faith in God.

Quote:

I'm also curious to know how they value marriage. Those of us that are Christians and get married understand the rules that need to be honored. But do Russian woman believe that they can cheat once in a while or make mistakes. What is their honor system like? How does an atheist establish an honest marriage?

You mean, Christians stay faithful to their spouses only because of fear of God's punishment? Interesting..

Quote:

The majority of Russians are Orthodox Catholic. As you move south and east, you begin to find more Muslims. Several other Western churches have begun missionary work there, so you will find pockets of other religions. But you are correct, the Soviet era did put a strong arm on organized religion, making it unhealthy for people to practice their religion. Because of this, it is more common to find people who have belief in their religion, but are akin to those Westerners who show up at church on Easter and Christmas.

The majority of Russians associate themselves with Eastern Orthodox Christianity, not Catholicism. Russian Orthodox Church is somewhat similar to Greek Orthodox, although the language used for sermon is Old Slavenic, not Greek. You can encounter other religions in Russia, such as other types of Cristianity (Catholic, Protestant), Muslim, Jewish, Budhist, but they compose maybe only 10-15% of all church going population.

Once overseas, Russians tend to attend church more often than in the old country. Generally, it is not because of a sudden religious devotion, but as an opportunity to communicate with other Russians on a regular basis.

Posted by: Junior

Quote:

Originally posted by inlove
You mean, Christians stay faithful to their spouses only because of fear of God's punishment? Interesting..

Remain faithful because of God's punishment? Not me. I would stay faithful to my wife for the following reasons:

1) She would find out eventually.

2) She would slowly and painfully put me to death.

I cannot think of any better reasons than this. Can you?
Just teasing here. Wait... no, no, no, please noooo........

Augh!

Okay... okay... I'll behave... well... just a little...

Okay - you win!

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by inlove
The majority of Russians associate themselves with Eastern Orthodox Christianity, not Catholicism. Russian Orthodox Church is somewhat similar to Greek Orthodox, although the language used for sermon is Old Slavenic, not Greek.

As I am married to a Russian woman I know better than to argue with one..................BUT:

Russian Orthodox church is in fact catholic, as is the Greek Orthodox church and the Bysantine (eastern rite) church. They are all based on the Nicene (sp?) creed, the same document the Roman Catholic church is based on. This does not mean they are all the same church, just that they all follow catholic dogma.

As for my wife and I, we are devoted once in a while church goers.

Posted by: inlove

Yeah, Junior, I cannot think of any better reasons either.

But Mr. Questions phraised his post in a way that implies that non-christians have a hard time staying faithful..

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL
As I am married to a Russian woman I know better than to argue with one..................BUT:

Russian Orthodox church is in fact catholic, as is the Greek Orthodox church and the Bysantine (eastern rite) church. They are all based on the Nicene (sp?) creed, the same document the Roman Catholic church is based on. This does not mean they are all the same church, just that they all follow catholic dogma.

Yeah, you should know better than to argue with one.

The only similarities between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy have to do with the facts that both of them claim a direct line of succession to the original apostles and both of them observe seven sacraments. They used to be the united up until 1054, although their disagreements started long before. The main issues were the Papal authority that Bysantia refused to recognize, as well as the Nicene creed dogma on the origin of Holly Spirit.

It is absolutely incorrect to think of Eastern Orthodox as Catholics. They definitely don't follow catholic doctrine, as we generally understand it. They, actually praise themselves as the only church that follows original doctrine.

Posted by: inlove

error

Posted by: Jill

But it really gets confusing if you throw in Ukraine because then you have two autocephalus Ukranian Orthodox churches, the Russian Orthodox church, and the Greek Catholic (Uniate) church. And then there are a handful of Roman Catholics (mainly Poles, I think) and the Moslem Tatar population in Crimea, and a smattering of Jewish communities.

But I would say that the majority of Ukrainians are agnostics. Especially middle aged Ukrainians--when you go to a church in Ukraine, you will usually see a disproportianate amount of old women and young children. I guess it's changing a bit, though.

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by inlove

It is absolutely incorrect to think of Eastern Orthodox as Catholics. They definitely don't follow catholic doctrine, as we generally understand it. They, actually praise themselves as the only church that follows original doctrine.

I did not mean to imply that Roman catholic and Orthodox were "sisters" or two halves of a whole (or worse yet - the same thing), but the creed that dictates their beliefs clearly states:

Quote:

"one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church"

Further, I found this tidbit on the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) website:

Quote:

QUESTION:

What is the proper name for the Orthodox Church? One sees so many, and of such different variety!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANSWER:

It must be understood first of all that names like Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Romanian Orthodox, etc. are all names for one and the same Church with one and the same faith and practice. Of course within these churches there are cultural differences which do not touch the essence of the faith as such.

Sometimes the Orthodox Church is also called the Eastern Orthodox Church, or the Oriental Church, or the Christian Church of the East, or the Orthodox Catholic Church, or the Graeco-Russian Church. But once more, these are all different names for the same Church.

Care must be exercised not to confuse the Orthodox Church with the Eastern Christian Churches in union with the See of Rome....

So while I do agree that they are NOT the same church, I still think (as OCA seems to) that ConnerVT was not wrong in calling it the Russian Orthodox catholic church

Posted by: Jim_FL

Ohh God! I've turned into FlashingEyes

Next I'll be arguing the linguistic differences between "Catholic" & "catholic"

Nevermind, it's all good......I'll go back to lurker mode now..........

Posted by: Junior

Quote:

Originally posted by inlove
Yeah, Junior, I cannot think of any better reasons either.
But Mr. Questions phraised his post in a way that implies that non-christians have a hard time staying faithful..

I have also gotten the message from his statement that if someone is a Christian they are above any physical temptations. And that those atheist Russians are wallowing in immorality. (Yeah, right.) However, I don�t think he meant this. Actually, I believe he wants to know if the typical Russian marriage value system is similar to that of what is here in the U.S. (For what that�s worth, right?) If I am correct, (and this does happened occasionally) there is no concrete answer. Whether someone remains faithful to his/her partner depends on that person�s maturity/values/morals; regardless of were they may live geographically. I guess it would probably help if he knew what vows are exchanged when a Russian man and woman get married. Yet, knowing what vows are exchanged in another culture or their marriage value system will not ensure that he will have a successful marriage whether it be with a Russian woman, a Romanian woman, a German woman, an Eskimo woman, or an African woman that sports an animal bone through her nose. It all depends on the individual�s commitment to their partner.

Posted by: Jill

Based on anecdotal evidence, I would say that cheating is somewhat more common in Russia (both among men and women). This is just based on people know (or know of), not on any kind of scientific study

And I completely agree that it really depends on the individual.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Jim, thanks for your support. This is exactly the reason my enjoyment of this particular forum has been lost lately.

I chose the term "Orthodox Catholic" for a reason. So the person who asked the question would quickly have a basic understanding of the religion, without the long, off-topic seminary discussion.

Why do I even bother?

Posted by: Jill

Well, I'm not going to argue about the name of the Church. Sounds OK to me (but I'm a lapsed Catholic, so what do I know?

).

However, I wouldn't say that the majority of Russians believe in Christianity; I think the majority of Russian simply call themselves Christian (or Orthodox--and in order not to go start an argument on the proper name, I will just call it pravoslavnii). To many Russians (not all of course), being pravoslavnii is just part of being Russian and does not really reflect some kind of deep belief in God or some adherence to church dogma (Russian intellectual tradition has long linked Orthodoxy to Russian national identity). Also, a lot of Russians will call themselves Christian just as way of saying that they are not Jewish or Moslem. So in many cases, these terms are not very reflective of real beliefs.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

Moronic comment...moronic comment...moronic comment

Oh my God! For the line above, I turned into Jim_FL! Next I'll be launching unprovoked personal attacks in Jim_FL's style and running and hiding in "lurker mode".

Posted by: Vyesna

I think most Russians believe in a higher power of some sort and go beyond agnosticism in that sense but are not devout in the sense of believing in all the typical tenants of Orthodoxy. There are some evangelical churches in Russia, though, so if a man wanted to find a woman who really embraces a more evangelical protestant sort of Christianity, he could search in those particular churches. However, I've heard some women without particular convictions attend such churches to snag a Western man. Of course, that sort of behavior probably exists everywhere.

My mother in law attends a Finnish Lutheran church, which I think she initially chose primarily because it's within walking distance.

Posted by: Vyesna

Flash, chill out, Jim was just teasing.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by ConnerVT
Jim, thanks for your support. This is exactly the reason my enjoyment of this particular forum has been lost lately.

Oh Gosh, is it because of me?

Wow, I did not realize I had such a profound effect on some people's relationships with this forum.. Are only people with superficial knowledge of "all things russian" invited? Sorry then..

Quote:

I chose the term "Orthodox Catholic" for a reason. So the person who asked the question would quickly have a basic understanding of the religion, without the long, off-topic seminary discussion.

I've looked up some eglish language resources and you are right. Once in a while you can encounter the term "Orthodox Catholic". I was very surprised, since you would never read something like that in Slavenic. I guess, this is how they translate [i]Pravoslavnyj[/] in English.

Nonetheless, this term used in a discussion about the russian main religion with a person who has a very little knowledge of the topic can create some confusion. it is important to pinpoint the distinction between Roman catholicism and Orthodoxy, so when he starts talking to his prospective brides about it, he has a basic idea what this religion is. And it has nothing to do with Catholicism.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

It has been said that the "Great Schism" between the Western and Eastern segments of the Church, generally dated in the eleventh century, is one of the greatest tragedies of all Christian history. The Schism was rooted as much in non-ecclesiastical, historical circumstances as it was in the outgrowth of doctrinal, theological, and ecclesiastical differences. In consequence, each side in this division, taking advantage of the outward circumstances, presumed to comprehend the whole of the Church catholic in itself. Out of the imbalance, there emerged among the main body of Christians in the West, a Papal-dominated "Roman Catholic Church" which sought to limit the Church to such as acknowledged its sovereignty, while Eastward there emerged the "Orthodox Church", composed of the four patriarchates of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. In our present time, side by side with these ancient patriarchal entities, are a number of self-governing national churches in sacramental fellowship with the original patriarchates, but not subject to their government and jurisdiction. The various authorities differ as to the number and location of these sovereign establishments, the difference being in the matter of recognition of asserted independent status of some, jurisdiction over which is at the same time claimed by a Patriarchate. In theory, at least, each of the patriarchs and national primates are sovereign within a limited territory, either by conciliar articulation or by local proclamation, in the absence of an ecumenical council since 787 A.D. Even though some of these different local national churches came into existence long after the last of the seven councils was held, their organization and administration is subject to decrees of the ecumenical councils. Thus, there is imposed on them to exercise ministry and authority within the limits of their respective countries. The geographical limits of the several, sovereign, local churches which existed by custom or were sanctioned by an ecumenical council, as well as that of the patriarchates, are more clearly defined.

George Augustine Hyde
Archbishop Emeritus
The Orthodox-Catholic Church of America
http://www.orthodoxcatholicchurch.org/

I think the above resolves the disagreements here. The word Catholic, with a capital "C", is assumed by some people to mean the Roman Catholic Church, but doesn't have to mean that, as in the "Orthodox-Catholic Church of America" name above. Certainly, when written with a lower case "c", the word "catholic" is equally applicable to both the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Roman) branches of the single, catholic church that experienced a leadership division in the 11th Century.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I'm Polish, I was baptised into Roman Catholicism, but now I'm an atheist (or something like that) and I'm OK with it. Religion is superstition but I suppose we need it to keep the common man in line.

Posted by: GreenBarb

Just for your own information. The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Churches have been talking for the last number of years of a reunification under the one Catholic Church. As far as I know it is almost complete. Pope John Paul II initated the talks. When he was elected Pope. The seperation happened when the Bizantian Empire Rose and divided the churches in the East from Rome. There was no contact with Rome for centuries which resulted in the division.

Posted by: Phil_Devon

Isn't that quote about " I believe in one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" in the Anglican creed as well? That always confused me as a kid in a Protestant church.

Posted by: ConnerVT

Don't get too full of yourself, inlove. You're hardly the sole reason -- just another who tend to not answer the question at hand, but ramble on about some tangent. Sometimes the simple answer is what is best suited. If someone asks "Are all Russians Atheist?" they really aren't concerned about the differences between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism beliefs.

And if we are going for definitions here, Russian Orthodox is a Christian religion. Otherwise, it would be hard to explain the Christmas and Easter holidays...

Posted by: Mr. Questions

Thanks ConnerVT!

I'm still really interested in hearing how others have overcome the religion issue!

For me it would be real strange to be with someone who "perhaps" has no clue about "God"... And I would most certainly like to understand how the other was raised in such a society and whether or not such a person would have an open mind to learn about religion.

I guess we here in American are still the only ones in the world who have on our currency "In God We Trust"... For me it means something...

But I also fear that by being with a non-believer problems will araise...

Hopefully others have experiences they can share...

Posted by: Jim_FL

Yes FLash, it was just a joke, if you took grave personal offence - I appologize.........but c'mon, even you have to see the humor in:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL

Next I'll be arguing the linguistic differences between "Catholic" & "catholic"

---------scroll down 9 posts---------

Quote:

Originally posted by FlashingEyes

The word Catholic, with a capital "C", is assumed by some people to mean the Roman Catholic Church, but doesn't have to mean that, as in the "Orthodox-Catholic Church of America" name above. Certainly, when written with a lower case "c", the word "catholic" is equally applicable to both the Eastern (Orthodox) and Western (Roman) branches of the single, catholic church that experienced a leadership division in the 11th Century.

P.S. You'll also note that I took great care in refraining from the use of the capitol "C" in my original explanation.

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by inlove
I was very surprised, since you would never read something like that in Slavenic. I guess, this is how they translate Pravoslavnyj in English.

Correct (as I understood it)
Also from OCA.org

Quote:

Orthodox Christians understand the word "catholic" word to mean "whole, complete, lacking in nothing." Hence, when we say "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church," we mean that the one, holy, and apostolic Church is "whole, complete, and lacking in nothing." The word "catholic" with a small "c" has nothing whatsoever to do with Roman "Catholic" with a capital "C". If it were incorrect to use the word "catholic" in the Creed, we wouldn't use it. And every English translation of the Creed that I have ever seen uses the word "catholic."

Apart from the word "catholic," there really is no English word that implies "all parts coming together to form a unified, complete whole" other than "catholic." Saying "one, holy, conciliar, and apostolic," "one, holy, complete, and apostolic," or "one, holy, all-around-the-world, and apostolic" simply does not work linguistically.

Posted by: Pin Boy

a ukrainian woman i am currently corresponding with belongs to an evangelical church established by some americans about 8-10 years back....she has said that she is drawn to that church because of the biblical based worhsip and instruction....from what she has written to me, the russian orthodox church "services" are primarily ceremonial and do not include any bible passage scrutiny or emphasis...i have no personal knowledge of what an orthodox service is like...i do not know if scripture readings are part of the service.

in her evangelical service, there are scripture readings and a homily is given by the "pastor" about the week's scripture readings...similar, i would guess, to a Catholic (with a capital C) mass without the consecration of bread and wine.

am i on the right track??

pin boy

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by GreenBarb
Just for your own information. The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Churches have been talking for the last number of years of a reunification under the one Catholic Church. As far as I know it is almost complete. Pope John Paul II initated the talks. When he was elected Pope. The seperation happened when the Bizantian Empire Rose and divided the churches in the East from Rome. There was no contact with Rome for centuries which resulted in the division.

You must be kidding about the reunion. And why would Eastern Orthodoxy suddenly recognize Pope? Or Roman Catholics are going to demolish the whole Vatican institution?

Quote:

ConnerVT said
And if we are going for definitions here, Russian Orthodox is a Christian religion. Otherwise, it would be hard to explain the Christmas and Easter holidays.

And where did I say that they were not Christians? One has to wonder if you even read others' posts..

Quote:

Mr. Questions said
For me it would be real strange to be with someone who "perhaps" has no clue about "God".

Russians have a clue about God. Some of them believe in in God, some not, but they have a clue what you are talking about. But again, you don't have to be with someone who does not believe in God, if this is so important to you..

Quote:

Mr. Questions said
And I would most certainly like to understand how the other was raised in such a society and whether or not such a person would have an open mind to learn about religion.

It is not completely clear what you are aksing here.. Do you mean what values that the "other" was raised with in "such a society"? Are you interested if you will be able to convert them into your religion?

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by Pin Boy
a ukrainian woman i am currently corresponding with belongs to an evangelical church established by some americans about 8-10 years back....she has said that she is drawn to that church because of the biblical based worhsip and instruction....from what she has written to me, the russian orthodox church "services" are primarily ceremonial and do not include any bible passage scrutiny or emphasis...i have no personal knowledge of what an orthodox service is like...i do not know if scripture readings are part of the service.

in her evangelical service, there are scripture readings and a homily is given by the "pastor" about the week's scripture readings...similar, i would guess, to a Catholic (with a capital C) mass without the consecration of bread and wine.

am i on the right track??

pin boy

Why not you visit an Orthodox church in your area and see for yourself? A Greek Orthodox will do..

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Hence, when we say "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church," we mean that the one, holy, and apostolic Church is "whole, complete, and lacking in nothing." The word "catholic" with a small "c" has nothing whatsoever to do with Roman "Catholic" with a capital "C".

Finally, I see the reason of misunderstanding!

catholic = ��
Catholic = ��

In Russian language they are slightly different words, but in English both "�" and "�" transcribe as "th"...

Because, the phrase "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" indeed is translated into Russian as "��, ��, ��, �� "!

Posted by: inlove

Oh, thanks PrincetonLion. Now the picture is clear.

Posted by: Pin Boy

i guess i could do that inlove

but gotta agree with conner, the tone of the RMP has degenerated lately

pin boy

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by Pin Boy
i guess i could do that inlove

but gotta agree with conner, the tone of the RMP has degenerated lately

pin boy

Pin Boy, there is no better way to find out about something than go to the direct sourse, in this case an Orthodox church. Sometimes this option is not available and you have to rely on hearsay, but this is not the case here. You said yourself that you don't have a personal knowledge about the subject, so why don't you go and get it? Or you prefer to rely on "she said/he said"?

Posted by: Pin Boy

inlove,

i already answered that i guess i could do that...once should suffice

pin boy

Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:

Originally posted by PrincetonLion
Finally, I see the reason of misunderstanding!

catholic = ��
Catholic = ��

In Russian language they are slightly different words, but in English both "�" and "�" transcribe as "th"...

Because, the phrase "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church" indeed is translated into Russian as "��, ��, ��, �� "!

Once again the Lion saves the day!

We can all learn great lessons from our dear friend the Lion, who has a good sense of humor and knows how not to take himself too seriously.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I don't see any problems with being with a "non-believer". I myself am one (in a way) and my lady, Polish by ancestry but from FSU, is more religously spiritual than I am. She tends to be kind of superstitious while I tend to be the cold, cynical rationalist. We get along just fine for just because somoene is a non-believer or an atheist does not neccessarily have to mean that they are a scoundrel.

I do have my own code of ethics though and I guess it is kind of based on some Catholic beliefs since I try to follow the code of honor of the old Polish nobility - the szlachta. It was a code based on chivalry and for them personal honor, dignity and freedom was everything. That szlachta blood still flows in my veins and I suppose that noblesse oblige ... irrespective of my attitudes towards religion and spirituality.