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The Metro
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Posted by: Mark18

What do you guys think of Moscows metro?
I think it's a work of art, well planned out.Though iv'e got lost a few times but hey thats part of the fun.
In rush hour when your moving a inch a second ,looking around and thinking to yourself.where the hell am i....
It's like my second home i spend up to 7 hrs a day rushing around on the metro...

Posted by: Jutman

Ohyes.

Its a well-done job. With my limit travelling, I have not seen anything elsewhere.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I usually spend about 2 hrs M - F on the Chicago Blue Line myself, buta the delays and going an inch-a-second suceeds in pissing me off

.

What I hate about the Moscow metro is the omnipresent Soviet socialist architecture and all those statues of socialist workers.

Posted by: Mark18

The Soviet socialist architecture in the metro is a wonderful site, seeing these figures holding guns and looking menacing is art in it's self.Beats the London underground hands down.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Oh, give me a break

- that socialist crap is neither art nor wonderful !

What does it portray ? What does it symbolize ? The forced enslavement and labor of millions of people ??!!

Posted by: sidney

I much perfer the Moscow metro to trying to go it on the street. It is much faster and cheaper. I enjoy the design and art.

Quote:

Oh, give me a break - that socialist crap is neither art nor wonderful ! What does it portray ? What does it symbolize ? The forced enslavement and labor of millions of people

I guess some could see this in architecture and other areas within the city but I view it as part of their history no matter how politically incorrect some view it. Most Moscovites seem to love it as well.
Sid

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Sid, most Muscovites love it because most Russians are throughly brain-washed by that socialist-communist garbage. You love it because you're not from that part of Europe and you don't know what tragedies the system that is espoused in that "art" imposed upon people.

Quote:

but I view it as part of their history no matter how politically incorrect some view it.

So then how about we bring back all the "art" of the III Reich, including the swastikas, huge Fuhrer banners and statues of national socialist Germanic worker-heroes and SS-men ... "no matter how politically incorrect some view it" ? It was part of Germany's and Europe's history too, wasn't it ? And it was still not as bad as communism !

Posted by: sidney

There is hardly a race or nationality that has not endured some form of oppression. There is a place and purpose for, if for no other reason then to deter history from repeating itself. Some people can be shackled with hate from the perceived as well as apparent oppression of others. This is simply perpetuating and keeping alive an evil. If we are to take down this art because pawel or others are offended by it then we should tear down half of Moscow. But why stop there we have the pyramids and .....Being the history buff that you are I’m sure your aware of the eye gouging of those who worked on St Basil so no other structure would rival it. We could do away with Lenins tomb, in red square, because of the oppression he created. Was it Peter the great who killed his own son before he had a chance to explain that his wife was pregnant and unable to bow properly to him. This is the history as well as the culture and surely deserves a place even if you feel more educated or offended by it then it's own people. I very much enjoy viewing the Soviet era memorials and art and look forward to seeing it again next year.
Sid

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally posted by sidney
Was it Peter the great who killed his own son before he had a chance to explain that his wife was pregnant and unable to bow properly to him.

Are you sure that you did not mix up him with Caligula?

And, by the way, there is one more funny historical misunderstanding - only one man had designed St. Basil cathedral, and his name was Barma Postnik (very often people repeat widely spreaded delusion that there were 2 people: Barma AND Postnik!)... And nobody blinded him - again, this is only a legend...

Posted by: sidney

You may be correct PL. My sourse of info was several years ago from a moscovite history professor. Time may have confused fact with me as well as the professor. I feel that some of the greatest builders in the FSU did so at the hands of the common people. So I agree wholeheartly with pawel in this regard. I just don't want to see it swept under the carpet for future generations.When the SU was in the space race much was financed thru what we term basic necessities It least this is my understanding. I saw a documentary that said they turned off the heat to portions of Siberia to funnel money into this program. Adversity has different effects on different individuals and I believe it is not without purpose. It has made the FSU people what they are today. They've endured what many of us wouldn't or couldn't. This has made them more endearing to me as well as enduring. As this world becomes more global in understanding I thinks things will change for the better. With global travel we're better able to undestand.
Sid

Posted by: Jutman

Its part of a countries history, and it can not been undoing. And sometimes things can have another meaning, like the swastikas, which you make think of the nazi-germany, but its still in use in Asia, here its a symbol of fertility.

Secondly and both the Nazi-germany and Communist-Sovjet is today seen as bad. Well, thats a classic good-bad or white-black situation, which is unfortunately.
Nazi-germany in the late 30ies and early 40ies was the technologial leader and Sovjet had their achievements to, like the sputnik.

And today, with the fall of the comminism in Russia, the metro stations design should be a tribute to the workers who made all this possible, and not the political elite who was in control.

So its a matter of perspective, and I choose to see its as amazing and 10 times more interesting than the metro in Paris, Prague, Berlin and Copenhagen.

Posted by: sidney

Quote:

Sovjet had their achievements to, like the sputnik.

I agree and would like to add that they were even ahead of the US in the space race for sometime. I hope I didn't misqote or misunderstand Pawel but I personally don't want sensorship because of the common man's suffering.
Thanks
Sid

Posted by: povlhp

I also see the metro, and other places in Russia as a museum, rather than a praise to the old soviet times. And comparing to nazism is wrong. If the nazis had been in control in 70-80 years like the communists, maybe the nordic sungod sign - the swastic, would not have looked so bad.

Stalin is a leader many russians still think was a great leader. And he killed more russians than the germans did. But most russians knows about the bad things that was done back then. So they are aware, and do not praise communism by seeing the labor sculptures.

For some reason, lenin is still praised all over, because he started the revolution, and people say he brought the country into this century. But I am not sure if Russia would not have progressed as good in the hands of the Czar.

I like the metro, the museum of a lost time. Even though the police does not like you taking photos there. Had to pack my camera away after being told "niet fotografia"

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Sid, I agree that almost all people went through some sort of opression in their history, that's true. However, one cannot compare the criminal, evil and psychotic opression of genocidal socialism-communism with anything else other than maybe German national socialism and various other barbaric Asiatic hordes (Mongols, Turks etc.). Tsarist bureaucrats may have opressed people in Russia, but that was still nothing compared to what the bolsheviks and Soviets did.

If it were up to me, most traces of bolshevism, socialism and sovietism would be forever removed. I would totally demolish the tomb of Lenin and all other communist bandits and erase their names from street and city names. In Poland, for example, there are still monuments to Red Army "liberators" and various communist bandits (for example, Edward Gierek) and I would take care to destroy them all. Communism is evil and it must be combatted and destroyed.

Posted by: sidney

Pawel, Thanks for clarifying.

Posted by: povlhp

Communism/socialism is not inherently evil. But the way some places do it is very bad.

I live in Denmark, one of the most socialist countries when it comes to the pureness of the thought - but we still have a right wing liberal government.

We pay 63% in taxes of the last money we make, and has 25% sales tax to give the government more wealth to distribute - And 300% sales tax on cars. Yet we have a society where schools, universities, hospitals etc are free. We have a country where a person making 3 times the minimum wage is in the top 10% of the income. We have a country with little difference between poor and wealthy, a country where things work.

You might call it liberalism, but it is not the US way. Neither is it socialism implemented the east european way. It is the scandinavian model.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Socialism is always evil, no matter who implements it or where for that matter. Socialism leads to communism and it's a straight path. I know people from Denmark in the United States and they do own businesses ... something they tell me they probably would not be able to in socialist Denmark.

As a great Polish 20th century thinker, Stefan Kisielewski, once wrote:

"Socialism creates problems which it then attempts to heroically combat".

Posted by: povlhp

veryone can start a business here. The government even helps to pay the salary the first period.

The reason they own business in the US they might not be able to in Denmark is either because they ran away from debt, lost their right to run a business because of criminal stuff, or because they can not afford the initial costs, or there are no customers.

Posted by: Jutman

Denmark was recently the awared the best investment country in the world, ahead of USA and other great economics.

Well, let me say:
Who has a trade surplus, a plus at the state budget, who is who has a public debt at 35% of GNP and not 60+ and low inflation and unemplotment rate even with a minimum wage at 16 USD.

Who can that be? USA or NO!! Its the 'socialistic' Denmark.

To be correct, the political linie used by the current administration is called socio-liberalism*.

* Economical. I kow in USA this word is used in connection with extreme left political parties. Both in economics, its more close to the Laissez-faire.

Another interesting figure is that for every danish police officer isthere 4 in USA, but for every 1 murdered in Denmark is there 4 in USA (per capita)

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Jutman, Denmark does not have to bear the brunt of keeping order in the world, thus the smaller budget deficit. Besides, I'm not really holding up America as the model to follow since the USA has been introducing socialism too. It's a curse of the Western world because politicians and bureaucrats find big government and etatism to be something to lead a parasitic existence on. Denmark may still be doing well, but DESPITE of the socialism, not because of it.

Povlhp, first they might help you pay the salary (out of the money you already paid in the form of taxes anyhow !) ... and then they'll tax you to death.

Posted by: povlhp

Pawel, keeping peace in the world is the responsibility of UN, not the USA. And Denmark has a considerable number of peacekeeping UN (and NATO) troops.

Much of the "peace" that the US does, is to protect own interests just as much as it is for the peace.

I know I pay 63% in tax, and out of the remaining 37% I pay around 7% in VAT. So my purchase power is around 30% of my salary. But I do not have to pay many of the expenses americans might have the choice to pay (health insurance etc).

I think I am just as well, if not better off as many americans with about the same salary as me pre-tax. After all expenses + retirement funds are paid, I have like $1200-1500 for food/clothing/fun every month.

I am not sure how many americans living in a 3 room (2 bedroom) apartment in a city center, and having a normal 37 hours work week in the office can say the same.

I am paying high tax - yes. But not so much as to make me poor or starving. The government knows how to differentiate between people with job and those without.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Well, I do not know that much about conditions in Denmark, but I know what is going on in Poland. And let me tell you - in Poland I doubt I would be able to afford my own apartment, car etc. etc. and given the 20 % unemployment rate I also doubt I would have jobs (not just one job) to pay for all of it. Poland is a typical European socialist "welfare" state based on the German model with big government, bureaucracy, high taxes, red tape and regulations and that is the reason why it's not developing as it could be, if a free market, minimum etatism and greater laissez faire system were in place.

Given such circumstances I can't complain about America on my life in America. And as far as I'm concerned, I also preffer smaller taxes on my money simply because I preffer to have the freedom to use and allocate the money that I earned as I, and not the gvt, see fit. That's the personal freedom part of the story.

Remember also the fact that gvt, in general, allocates money less efficiently than individuals because of all the corruption associated with big governments. Scandinavia may be an exception when it comes to corruption, but socialism will corrupt even the Scandinavians given time.

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

Its a complex discussion.

First what Povl is telling about the tax rate is true, but is only for an income above 50K USD, the first 6K USd do don't pay tax for at all. 2ndly people who work get a 'working' tax deduction.

So for an average income in Denmark, for every 'dollar' you make, you pay about 37 cent in income tax, and from the remaining 63 cents, you pay 12,6 cent in sales tax and a little extra for tariffs.

Where Denmark is a big difference, from the socialism you know, is that a public company must make zero or even a profit. If the manager fail, he/she can get sacked. Schools marks and so on are public at the ineternet, so there is a competition between them.

There is a classic explanation, between Denmark and USA. If you take a average income on boh countries, look at what you get from the tax/goverment in Denmark and compare it to american tax + private insurance, the Danish couple has actually 2 cents more dollar to spend.
This is the biggest difference, In Denmark WE choose to pay for schools, doctors, hospitals over the tax system where some of these service are provided in private business in America.

The result is that Americans has the luxary to choose NOT to pay to hospitals, and then spend more at consumption. Americans with an income above average benefits from this system, since a insurance cost the same. So the American system is good for choice and for 'rich' people.
The benefit of the Danish system, is that everybody don't have to worry about college savings and medical insurance. Its already paid for, via the tax. This is especially good for the people who have an income lower than the average. And combined with above example stating, that for the middle class, is there no basiq difference, its nice to see your fellow citizen get help when they need and you don't have to worry about money for medicin, doctors and so on.
And a small plus for that: in USA you have scollarchips for studenst who cant for tuition, in form of GMAT score over (600?) or is good in sport. The result is some good studenst can't afford an education when they don't fit into these two categories, but in my country these find clever heads are not wasted.

So Pawel, I agre with you, that the socialism in Sovjet time is not a good one. But Lenin* did not know concepts like GDP, bonus, public companies, welfare, unemployment insurance and so on so his idea/intention was 'good' but poorly in reel life.

* my wife is from his hometown.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

So here is where we disagree. I do not think that Lenin's idea or intention was "good" ... or Marx's for that matter. What those guys said and proposed was pure banditry and theft. I really don't think it's a good or ethical thing to want to deprive people of their private property since that will de facto make people into slaves.

I'm not going to argue with you about the Danish system. However, I know that recently your Rasmussen has been criticized in Polish conservative-libertarian media for bowing to socialist ideas.

What I can tell you is that what I know is the American model and the euro-socialist Polish model. The American model does leave much to be desired but it is still better than the continental European socialist model. I know that a lot of people my age or younger that are still at the university and don't have wealthy parents in Poland are either still living with their parents and struggling to find a normal job ... or they emmigrate to the United States to be au paires (nannies), construction workers or to clean Jewish toilets and offices.

What this means to me is that America still provides more opportunities that socialist Europe does not.

Posted by: Jutman

Pawel or in danish. POUL / POVL.

Don't get me wrong. Too much socialism is not good to.

Lenin wanted to improve living conditions for poor people, thats have to be good.
That he did'nt know how to do it within human rights is another issue. However he was'nt the worst of the these guys. The last years of his life, he understaood it was not a ideal system and he wanted to loose up the system. But he was put in place by the Trotskies.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Here is where you're bowing to propaganda, Jutman. But then I know that this propaganda is omnipresent ... especially in Western Europe.

Lenin was NOT "trying to improve conditions for poor people". He did not care at all about the poor people. In fact, he was directly responsible for the fact that so many people were pushed into poverty. For Lenin and his bandits it was all about power and "trying to improve conditions for poor people" was a slogan and only a slogan, like with all sorts of socialist demagogues.

Lenin and his bandits also introduced a reing of terror and murder not seen in Russia since the days of the Mongols. The orgy of spying and murdering of people under the bolshevik occupation is best proof that he did not care about any values.

As far as the NEP is concerned, yes - it was proof of disillusionment with central planning and "war communism" - but it was planned as a means to allow the people to enrich themselves a bit so that there would be riches for the bolshevik bandits to seize and requisition later on. A parasite cannot allow the organism it's leaching on to die completely or else the parasite will either die himself or have to search for another victim.

The history of socialism is therefore a history of parasites constantly on the prowl for new victims.

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

Its rather complex situation, as I wrote in a previous post. Where the main difference between the capitalism/current world situation is that politics take place around and individual human being and within that, you're attitude is basiqly correct.

But Lenin and other communists, even today in China and NorthCorea has the view that the system is the most important issue, and to secure the system the individual is not important at all and therefore 'enemies' of system most be eliminated.

But before the revolution in Russia its was at least 80% of the population who needed one or more of food, medicin, cloth, school and homes. The system was to provide people with these basiq issues, so thats why I wrote his intention was good.

Its a classic dilemma, that the communism has the system as the most important and yet they are the workers party where everybody is equal compared to the riches and nobels.

Thats where the modern socialism in Europe is different from the communism in Sovjet time. In sovjet its the people for the system, in Europe its the system for the people.

Politics is not white-black or good-bad, there are many levels of each.

Posted by: povlhp

Yes, danish politics is about people. The government wants to help all people, and wants to regulate people's behaviour when they are not able to take care of themself (taxes on everything from Tobacco and alcohol to simple things as soft-drinks with sugar).

We are a democratic "socialist" state. if the government does something the people do not like, the government will have to find a new job no later than 4 years later.

In Denmark, policitcs has always been around the political middle, since we have 6-10 parties in parliament, and most governments are in a majority, and needs to negotiate from case to case.

Now the left wing complains that the liberal government has stolen all their ideas because the government is doing many good things.

When the current government where freezing the taxes, the left wing complained a lot, yet the government has managed to do it in a good way, so most if not all people are better off than before it was done.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Jutman, in the European socialist state it's not "the system for the people", but it its more like "the taxpayers for the ever-growing, all-consuming budget", because god forbid - gvt might have to cut its expenditures

(!!!!) and that would mean .... cutting welfare (!!!!)

... and THAT would mean all those lazy-asses on social welfare would have to actually find a job and do some honest work (!!!!)

Quote:

The government wants to help all people, and wants to regulate people's behaviour when they are not able to take care of themself (taxes on everything from Tobacco and alcohol to simple things as soft-drinks with sugar).

Regulate everything - just like a totalitarian state ! Can't you see the obvious ?!

Quote:

We are a democratic "socialist" state. if the government does something the people do not like, the government will have to find a new job no later than 4 years later.

But just like in a European democracy, no matter what the people choose in an election, in the end they eventually get the same thing because democracy is based on the class solidarity of the politician class and that solidarity is above party lines. So the "people" don't really have much of a real influence anyhow since democratic politicians have long ago figured out how to fool the naive masses.

Posted by: Nevsky21

The Russian Metro is a beautiful place. Much better than any other subway system in the world. Compare it to the American subway in NY. In NY there is no nice architecture just McDonalds wrappers and puddles of pigeon piss. The people on the Moscow subway generally are decent Russian citizens. In NY its mostly ******s who go there to rob white people who are stupid enough to use the subway. Many stations were built during the Stalin era and show great monuments to those lkost in the Great PAtriotic War which we won almost single handedly.

P.S. Yankees and all others becareful in the subway skinheads and other hooligans may target you.

Posted by: Pin Boy

who is this??? john rocker, former Atlanta Braves pitcher?

baseball fans will get the reference

pin boy

by the way, you're not contributing to this board by spreading your vile prejudice

Posted by: Nevsky21

pinboy i'm telling you people the realitites. If you dont believe me I hope you'll bump into a couple of people in bomber jackets, black boots, and red suspenders. You will quickly remmember my advice. I'm contributing to this forum because I have a university degree in world and russian history. I know what is really going on in politics in Russia and am Russian myself unlike most of you. The ones of you ehar that are from Russia are most likely jews so you dont count.

SLAVA ROSSII!!!

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Nevsky...

We don't allow hate speech in the forums...

We try to be tolerant and open-minded, and to respect others...

I can't understand if you are sincerely just speaking your mind without trying to offend anyone, or... if you are trying to ruffle someone's feathers...

I really don't want to spend a lot of time discussing why you shouldn' call people "n***ers."

I can also understand that you may have a thing against muslims... Maybe you had a bad experience with one in Russia? I have no idea.

If you have not had experience or friendships with African-Americans or Muslims, then perhaps you hate them for the stereotype that exists...

I don't want to get too off-topic with this, but... if you want to participate in these forums then you can't express racial hate here.... There are other forums where you can do that.

Khashyar

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevsky21
The Russian Metro is a beautiful place. Much better than any other subway system in the world. Compare it to the American subway in NY. In NY there is no nice architecture just McDonalds wrappers and puddles of pigeon piss. The people on the Moscow subway generally are decent Russian citizens. In NY its mostly ******s who go there to rob white people who are stupid enough to use the subway. Many stations were built during the Stalin era and show great monuments to those lkost in the Great PAtriotic War which we won almost single handedly.

P.S. Yankees and all others becareful in the subway skinheads and other hooligans may target you.

Posted by: Khashyar

Hey...

Let's continue a discussion about Russian prejudice towards muslims and African-Americans/Africans in another seperate thread: http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...?&threadid=4145

And leave this thread for discussions about the metro...

Khashyar

Posted by: Jutman

Just bring it a little back on track.

I just wonder, is there other cities in Russia / FSU with a metro?

Posted by: povlhp

No, but lots of cities has a Tram / Tramway / Sporvogn

Posted by: inlove

Moscow, St. Petersburg, Novosibirsk, Kiev and quite a few more cities have metro.

Posted by: tanya3475

I come from Nizhniy Novgorod (former Gorky) and we have metro there as well

Posted by: povlhp

What is the definition of a metro ?

Here in Denmark, we have the old S-trains - which are partially underground, and our new Metro is completely underground.

Novosibirsk is not 100% underground as far as I can see from the web.

Posted by: Jill

There's a metro in Yerevan, but it only has one line

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally posted by povlhp
What is the definition of a metro ?

Here in Denmark, we have the old S-trains - which are partially underground, and our new Metro is completely underground.

Novosibirsk is not 100% underground as far as I can see from the web.

Everything that goes underground at least 50% of the way is a metro.

Posted by: dakotaridge

Quote:

Originally posted by Pawel_PL.USA
I usually spend about 2 hrs M - F on the Chicago Blue Line myself, buta the delays and going an inch-a-second suceeds in pissing me off .

Once when I was 16 I took the L from Oak Park (Berwyn) to Wrigley Field and on the way home I got off at the wrong stop. Let's say my skin tone didn't match the majority of people on the street and I was hassled more than once - thank God it didn't turn more serious; only the year being 1976 saved me.

Quote:

What I hate about the Moscow metro is the omnipresent Soviet socialist architecture and all those statues of socialist workers.

I don't remember seeing any statues. All I remember is those mile-long escalators that made me nauseous because they angle all the pix on the walls at 45 degrees and you really lose your sense of which way is up. Even the little light posts between the up and down escalators are angled. It's a nightmare.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I can't say that I hate the Chicago Blue Line, I've managed to get in a lot of reading in those often-delayed rides.

I totally disagree with Nevsky's view of the so-called "Patriotic War" and the architecture in the Moscow Metro, but I think there is a grain (or a couple of grains) of truth in what he says about the above-mentioned groups ... but then I'm just not a "group hug kind of guy" (like Connor once said about himself).

I think that , in the end, the saying that "everyone has an unpleasant smell coming form their rear end" ("kazdemu z dupy smierdzi") holds true and applies to all ethnic groups though. For example, in the last article I wrote for "POLONIA" magazine I really bashed the old Polish nobility (szlachta) for selfishness and lack of political thinking.