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A scam(?) gone wrong/right!
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Posted by: Ade

Hi,

As in my previous thread, I went to Bratsk to meet a woman I'd been in contact with for 6 months, but who turned out not to be there, or registered there, or living at the address she'd given me. However, when she emailed me to say she wouldn't be there (and could I rearrange my trip) it was too late to cancel, so I packed my bags and flew out anyway.

So I thought I'd share some of my trip experiences with you - this undefinable scam was still sending me all the way to Siberia in the winter. The flights out were pretty much okay, until getting the last leg from Moscow to Bratsk. Siberia Airlines decided to make everyone get their hand luggage weighed as well as the normal cases, so they could charge everyone a little more for excess weight! Then, landing at Bratsk at 6:10 a.m., it was a little foggy - so we diverted to Irkutsk - some 800 miles south, I believe!! When a return flight was arranged, I got to Bratsk about 7 + 1/2 hrs behind schedule, and by the time I'd got to bed I'd been awake for 2+1/2 days. I did wake at midnight, but thought I was too late for the bar....little did I know.

Right, I'm in Bratsk, know hardly any Russian because I was meeting a woman who spoke good English - except now I was on my own.

My first full day there was spent just having a wander round the local streets, getting used to the weather, and relaxing. I knew there was a tour company based in the hotel, so I figured in a couple of days I'd see about getting some local trips arranged. I'm okay with my own company, which was starting to look like a good job, as there was very little English being spoken in Bratsk. I also put on thewalkman and tried to assimilate some more Russian.

Sunday followed much the same pattern, but in the bar I met Alexander, a Russian businessman passing through, who had pretty good English. That's when the holiday really started.....

A little later in the evening, as we were chatting, I noticed a couple of groups of young women, one of whom kept looking over and smiling. Hey, I thought, this must be a hot bar in town, with all these good looking girls in here.......then it dawned on me that they were prostitutes.

Almost immediately two of them (both very attractive and polite) came over to sit with us. As it turned out, these two girls, Sveta and Ira, were to have a big part in my holiday. One spoke a little English, the other a lot. I guess my inexperience showed here as I evidently looked nervous as one of them started stroking my arm!!!

Alex suggested we went to the bar to get a drink and explained the format here....anyway, I relaxed a little and started drinking coffee to make sure I didn't lose my wallet.

Two days later these same girls were in again, and once more came over to us. I was actually enjoying the conversations now, they were nice people, and with a little translation help from Alex, I arranged to meet Sveta the next day to go to see some of the sights!

Next day I met her at a cafe across the road from the hotel (they weren't allowed in during the day - they turned up in the bar after 10 at night, the bar usually staying open to 4-ish the following morning), and had a trip out to the Hydro-Electric plant and the Ski-JUmp/toboggan place to get some glorious pictures.

At night in the bar I was talking to Sveta and Ira again, and both were disgusted at the action of the woman I was supposed to be meeting. As luck would have it, Ira lived on the same street as the address I had for the woman I was supposed to be visiting, and only a few blocks away.

She looked up the telephone number for the flat and called, and also went to the trouble of visiting it; confirming that no Maria Pronina was known there.

Well, it's part-way through my trip, and at last I'm starting to fully enjoy. I'll add more tomorrow - but at least, up to now, a seemingly pointless scam/lie wasn't ruining my holiday.

Posted by: rtking

You're a brave, adventurous man for going to a country where you don't know anyone and don't know the language! But I'm sure it's an adventure that you'll remember for all of your life! And you've made some good friends it seems! Excellent! Sorry to hear about the girl who never showed (and, apparently, never existed.)

I did a quick search on Google and came up with this on Maria Pronina:

Maria Pronina confetka@mailgate.ru / confetka@hotmail.ru Russia Nizhny Novgorod Prospekt Lenina 64-17

Apparently someone before had attempted flower delivery and it never made it because of the false address.

Bob

Posted by: Ade

Hi,

I've also seen that Maria P listed as a scammer - but that's Nizhny Novgorod, thousands of miles away, and totally different email - so I don't 'think' it's the same person. But thanks for looking, it's good to know people are bothered.

I'll post more of my holiday tonight - basically I had a blast

Posted by: Ade

Well, next day I was supposed to meet Sveta for another trip, but she didn't show - great, I thought, I'm making such a good impression that I'm being stood up by a working girl. But at night she appeared in the bar, apologetic for oversleeping and not being able to come in the hotel to find me (day had been made worse when I'd woken up and looked at my mobile, still set to UK time, and a little bleary from drink I thought Iwas late so dashed up, dressed and legged it off round town for an hour looking for her until I realised what I'd done!).

So another trip gets arranged. Getting hungry, she asks if I fancy some fish. Okay, I said, thinking we're going to a fish restaurant. We were actually going to a roadside stall to buy dried fish, half of which ended up in my fridge......I had no clue what to do with two of them

A tasty lunch followed, including a soup containing a bull's testicle. Hmm!!

I'm really into the holiday now, and it get's better at night when Alexander tells me the young bar manager likes me also, so a few smiles later and we're still drinking at 5:30 a.m.

Next lunchtime I meet Sveta again (see a pattern emerging?) and we go for a 'proper' tourist trip; the taxi driver takes us to his boat shed to see the boat he's building, also to a fish farm where we get to handle the fish. We also visit the Angara Village museum - open all year round, says Lonely Planet; not so, say the 'closed for Winter' signs - but a hefty £4 bribe gets it opened and I manage to see it and take a few photos. Lunch in a nice restaurant has Sveta laughing when I somehow manage to say - in Russian - that I want sex with a fish. A few people stared at that. Not sure I could manage to repeat even if I tried.

We go shopping - and this is the third day we've spent together, she finally asks for something. Not the expensive boots she adored, but a simple bath-robe/dressing gown. She asks me if I want to see her home and have a drink of tea, and when we get there she shows me the old, coming-apart-at-the-seams robe she could now throw away. A small single room apartment, toilet/shower/sinks shared with three other rooms. Makes you extremely grateful for what you've got.

However, upon arriving there she said she had to pop out to phone her friends. At this point I wondered just how sensible I was; I was in a part of town I didn't know, with a woman who needed money, and I didn't even know her surname - were these friends going to be three huge Boris' eager for my wallet. I made a rather stupid decision here, texting my nephew, telling him not to worry, but if I didn't get back to him in 15 minutes I was in serious trouble! Of course he paniced

And I was fine. At the end of the evening, Sveta insisted in getting the taxi with me back to the hotel to make sure I got there alright. Very sweet.

Next evening I met Sveta in the bar - she quickly ushered Ira away from me (she actually admitted to being jealous! - but Ira simply spoke a lot better English, and was a good help in the Maria address situation), and after a while we went for a very nice meal in the Bratsk Hotel - much better restaurant than the Taiga - with lovely music and a nice bottle of champagne...... I'm getting a little carried away with things now, but what the hell, I'm enjoying myself.

However, it's getting close to the end of my holiday now, and I'm wishing I could stay for longer.....I'll conclude later tonight or tomorrow.

Posted by: lester

Wonderful post Ade,
You jammy devil!!

The Master Cutler, Sheffield Steel. all true!!

Waiting for next installment!!

Posted by: povlhp

Glad you are getting the best out of the trip. I am going to a first visit in Barnaul, Siberia in 3 weeks (but 4th visit total to Russia, last time was to visit a girl that i did not meet as her parents kept her in Ukraine preventing her from meeting me near Moscow where she lived when I accidentally met her earlier).

So I do feel sympathy with you, and knows the situation a bit.

This time, I made sure to get the contact info for the agency, so I can have them arrange other meetings if this one fails. But I will also bring camera equipment so I can get a good photo tour, and my logbook so I can visit the local dropzone and get a few skydive if weather/time permits.

Posted by: Ade

Hi, thanks for the replies guys! I'll post the final installment tomorrow, just add a quick bit here; Sveta did admit to oversleeping, but wanted to meet me the next day for another trip. I instigated a fine system, whereby she had to pay me if she was late

So I'm there, it's 1 minute to 12, yes, yes, she's gonna be late. Damn taxi turns up, and my get-rich-quick scheme flounders as she waves me over

Siberia is marvellous, seeing all the women dressed like women, walking around in heels on snow and ice, looking so feminine; reminds you to be a gentleman. Hey, I am from Sheffield, city of Steel, and I'm sure it helped me when I knew I was going to be on my own. But good old-fashioned manners made my trip, as it made my relationship with all the hotel staff easy. Lot's of them couldn't understand me (they will next time), but they could see I was behaving politely.

A nice tone of voice and a friendly smile worked wonders when all else failed.

Story to be completed tomorrow.......

Posted by: Ade

Well, I'm on the last day of the holiday when I get up. I met Sveta again (but we're not allowed to talk about stuff in the hotel bar, because she'd be due to pay a cut to the uber-boss; she'd met me through the hotel, so should be getting money off me and paying her cut) and had a lovely afternoon, shopping, bowling, a nice meal.

Unfortunately she had to work that evening, so couldn't come out to play. She did warn me that if I got up to any funny business with Ira, she wouldn't keep in contact and would damage Ira!!!

Well, in the evening I was meeting Ira, who was good to talk to because she had good English. However, during the evening one of the other girls came over, handed me her mobile, and I got to talk to Sveta - who wanted to wish me goodbye, but also remind me of my responsibilities

Next morning, I set off back to England. With a 3 hour, unexplained delay at Bratsk airport, the plane was like a sauna and I spent probably the stinkiest day of my life!! Due to the delay I also missed my taxi in Moscow and the flight out.....hoping my travel insurance will at least cover some of this.

Back in the Uk on Monday night, I felt both glad and sad. I'd had a wonderful holiday, but was sad to be leaving Sveta behind. Fortunately, she has kept in touch

I am going back, as soon as I can afford, because even though my reason for going turned out to be a false alarm, I have met some lovely people there, and one in particular who could go on to be an important part of my life, if things go well.

I may well be back to Bratsk at least twice more this year, as my German doctor (trained in Moscow) friend fancies a trip out in September. My credit card companies will love me

But when you get the chance to be happy, you've got to take it. And some pointless-seeming pretence from a woman I hoped to meet, may well turn out to be a pivotal moment in my life. So here's to scammers, every one of 'em, because without their fakery, I wouldn't have met Sveta.

And good luck to everyone else who takes a chance to follow their heart.

Ade

Posted by: fly4fun

I see a very bright future for you in the tour business. Hell, tours I've been on weren't nearly as much fun or interesting.

Posted by: povlhp

Fly4fun - Maybe you are the boring type ? A trip becomes what you make it, and as a foreigner in a foreign country, it is pretty easy to find some gals to hang out with.

Or maybe it is because you are travelling in a group. My experiences has been like Ade's, that it is easy to meet people, and if you want, get laid. Pretty universal all over the world if you come as a foreigner.

Ade - Since she is been working in the light cavalry, I hope you have taken care. There are some extra risks involved. Generally, you should take care if you do not know the person / had her through a full medical.

It is now less than 3 weeks until I am going for my first meeting with a girl in Siberia.

Posted by: Ade

Fly4fun, thanks. I think I'm one of those people who things are occasionally likely to happen to, due to a mixture of naivete and misplaced confidence! There are times when caution and sense desert me.........

povlhp, I hope you enjoy your trip. I intend to go back in June if I can afford it, or earlier if I win the lottery. As for the girls in the bar, they were simply working because they needed the money to live on. They weren't doing drugs, and mostly looked clean, healthy women, just doing what they needed to get by. They were all disgusted by the action of the 'girl' I was supposed to be meeting, and I'm sure Sveta was honest, as she had my wallet several times, and not a rouble ever went missing.

I really had a brilliant time, and can't wait to return. Anyone thinking of taking a trip to Russia, just do it - get to your travel agents and book, now. That's an order! If you don't, you'll be sorry

Posted by: Yozhik

Ade,

What a great thread, and thanks so much for sharing your experiences. I have to agree with Bob, you were very brave to venture on the daunting trip alone (I remember when I was the same for my first trip to Ukraine). I have to say, I was LMAO when I read about your Russian mistake with having fun with that fish!

I'm really glad it turned out well for you; just glad that the people you did meet were genuine people and not the types to rip you off for every rouble in your wallet. If you're ever around the Midlands area give me a shout for a beer and a chat about all things Russian

Looking forward to hearing the next installments after your next trip :-)

Si

Posted by: Ade

Well, I'm going back (unless something dodgy happens) in June or July, then probably September (with a maniac German psychiatrist!). Got to see Sveta again. Just got to.

But my, that fish looked sexy

Well, as I now know of a couple of you down in the Midlands, looks like I'll have to make a trip down to meet you.

Glad you enjoyed my story. I enjoyed living it. Still can't see what Maria thinks she gets, but I'm past caring.

Ade

Posted by: Turpin

I think you need to get some balls and stay away from prostitutes. Go around the streets and just walk up to regular women - pretty ones who look like they may be single - and start flirting in English. Actually, you should practice that in the States first. In the States, you are doing well if you can make them smile as they turn you down. You know then that the problem is that they are not looking. You get a better response from Russian and East European women. I think I'll have a field day when I go on vacation.

Posted by: AkMike

.

Posted by: Ade

Thanks for that helpful post Turpin!

If you've actually read my posts you'll see I wasn't looking for prostitutes - that's not something I do in the UK or abroad; it was an unexpected encounter. I thought it was also obvious from my posts that the girl I was spending time with wasn't actually working whilst she was with me.......of course, you may not realise that working girls can also be people too, with the same emotional needs as the rest of us. This is a special woman, so should I just disregard her personality because of how she's had to earn enough money to live on?

Posted by: lechef

Quote:

Originally posted by povlhp
Fly4fun - Maybe you are the boring type ? A trip becomes what you make it, and as a foreigner in a foreign country, it is pretty easy to find some gals to hang out with.

Or maybe it is because you are travelling in a group. My experiences has been like Ade's, that it is easy to meet people, and if you want, get laid. Pretty universal all over the world if you come as a foreigner.

Ade - Since she is been working in the light cavalry, I hope you have taken care. There are some extra risks involved. Generally, you should take care if you do not know the person / had her through a full medical.

It is now less than 3 weeks until I am going for my first meeting with a girl in Siberia.

Story of medical safety..

My buddy decided to join me on my second journey back packing through central America. One of my favorites stops is La Ceiba Honduras. It is a beautiful ocean front city with disco and such, there is also a red district. For people that go their or have been to this city you know to STAY AWAY from it as the girls are not of good health. Well one night we were at the disco and the picking were slim and my buddy decided to go to the red light district and as a good friend I advised him not to do so and he went anyways. A few hours later he comes back with a smile and said it was not bad at all and I just nodded and said ok and we continued to party all night. The next morning I heard him say OMG what the f_ck is going on. He then called me over and said look and I saw what was the worst STD I have ever seen and we rushed him to the closet USA military hospital about 6 hrs away and after he was examined he was told he be in quartine until it was under control. The rest of the trip which was two months I enjoyed it by myself and when it was over I was home and he was still in the hospital and it was a total of four months before he was released and asked never to come back to Honduras. The moral of the story is you play you pay and you never know what you can get for a strange country. I be very careful of hookers and although you may have one good night of sex it doesn't pay to almost have your thing fall off.

Posted by: Turpin

Ade,

I know what you mean. I have the same experience in the States. I don't have sex with them, but sometimes prostitutes are very nice and easy to get along with. They understand that men are attracted to women who are desired by other men, so even if you aren't interested in their business, they see you as good for business. Also, they have no reason to refuse a free drink or free meal on you. In contrast, most women are quite guarded against even having a simple conversation.

James

Posted by: andy_101

Wow Ade, what a story! But what are you going to do now? Is it just a holiday romance or are you going to pursue it? I'm sure that you realise that there are any number of reasons to consider it a holiday romance and quit whilst you're ahead. You'll never have to explain to your mother for one! Then again a relationship with an exotic and pleasant Russian woman has its attractions as well. How is it all going to work in practice though? You need to take the time to calm down and view it objectively. The right woman can make a man and the wrong one can break him. You should seek advice from people who know you and whom you respect. Some people will say that she's just after your money and they could be right. I think that I would date a few local girls and see if her influence is diminished. The situation could then sort itself out. If it doesn't then oh boy are you in trouble! Take your time and think it all through mate.

Andy

Posted by: Ade

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the reply. As things stand, I'll never have to explain to my mother or father - they're both dead!! I'm not sure my sisters have entirely gotten a grasp of what's happened though

.

This is a nice woman, who is unhappy with what she's been doing to get the money she needs to live on. I've had a few emails with her since, some serious, some having a laugh.

I feel too old for holiday romances - I'm not a child anymore, and I don't like to play with people's emotions. I'm going back to visit her in July, she's coming over at some point - before or after my return, depending upon how quickly I get round to arranging it.

Of the people I've talked to about this, the females are more understanding and supportive; except for my youngest nephew (and best friend) who is totally on my side, but happy for what makes me happy - and his 'couldn't give a stuff' attitude is one I should adopt more often.

I'm a grown man, and if it goes wrong, the bruises will fade; if it goes right, I'll be lucky and happy. As for your last comment - I think I'm already in trouble!!!

Best regards,

Ade

Posted by: lechef

Quote:

Originally posted by andy_101
The right woman can make a man and the wrong one can break him.
Andy

Maybe if you are talking about a weak person with no Ba__s.. As should be said for a woman too. Only a weak person can be broken but a strong person will never fall. We encounter bumps in the road but a strong person always finds the right path. I totally disagree with this statement as in this world the strong will survive. This goes for all races and gender.

Posted by: andy_101

Enough said Ade - best of luck with it.

Andy

Hey LeChef! Know any Johnny Cash?

"6' 6" he stood off the ground. He weighed 245 Ibs and I saw that giant of a man brought down by a thing called love."

Sometimes you aren't as tough as you'd like to think.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

So what would happen if Nietzsche and Johnny Cash had switched lives? Would Nietzsche have written that "the greatest man is still doomed to a life in prison, with a coexistant internal prison of the mind caused by endless sadness over lost love, the killing of his favorite hound dog, and the theft of his pickup truck," and would Cash have sung such hits as "The Superman is a burning ring of fire, the world's going down but the Superman goes higher, and he burns, burns, burns, this man of fire, this man of fire."?

Posted by: lechef

Quote:

Originally posted by andy_101
Enough said Ade - best of luck with it.

Andy

Hey LeChef! Know any Johnny Cash?

"6' 6" he stood off the ground. He weighed 245 Ibs and I saw that giant of a man brought down by a thing called love."

Sometimes you aren't as tough as you'd like to think.

Then someone found his weak spot. Do not get me wrong I am not trying to stick out my macho chest but in all things being tough also has to do with being smart and responsible in your actions. By the way yes I know of Johnny, big country fan here.

Posted by: andy_101

Quote:

Originally posted by lechef
Then someone found his weak spot.

Everybody's got one - even Achilles had a weak heel. A good woman will find it and make it strong. A bad one will scratch and dig at it until your strength and vitality drop out of it and leave you thinking that love is a disease of the blood! You have to be very careful who you give your heart to. In Ade's situation I would proceed with extreme caution - its his decision though.

Posted by: BradIL

I keep dropping this post in the threads around here to see if it will get a response... and so far... no one touches it.

Sooooo... Ade... Andy_101... anybody else:

Would you consider initiating a serious relationship, perhaps marrying, a woman who has worked as a prostitute... say... within the last year before you met her?

How emotionally secure would any of you be dating a prostitute?

I am not trying to "set up" anyone here for criticism, but I am repeatedly surprised by the number of folks who meet prostitutes during the travel to the FSU, who do NOT patronize them, but socialize with them--- like them--- and revisit them.

How do you handle this situation?

Posted by: Ade

Hi Brad,

I guess it's an area we don't often think of - here in the UK my impression (not knowledge, I hasten to add) is that working girls are 'high class escorts' actively making a living, or street girls largely fuelling drug dependencies. The girls there simply didn't have neough money to live on without supplementing their income. Different mindset, I think - neither a career choice nor a compulsion.

And of course, girls working here probably run the whole gamut of personalities too - but I guess travelling sets up social meetings like I encountered.

I am going back to visit Sveta, so I'll see how I feel about things after that!

Posted by: andy_101

Quote:

[i]

Would you consider initiating a serious relationship, perhaps marrying, a woman who has worked as a prostitute... say... within the last year before you met her?
[/B]

Short answer - no way!

On the other hand there's no reason not to be friendly and a girl with local knowledge could teach you alot. I can see how it could be a load of fun. But longterm - it wouldn't be for me.

Posted by: fly4fun

I could write a book about my 3 years in Germany and being friends with my 2 next door neighbors who were both call girls.
They were even baby sitters for my wife and I while we were there.
It was difficult to believe at first what they did for work when we knew them also as neighbors and friends.
One of them would always give me a ride into the base during the first six months I was there while waiting for permission to have my own car. Plus the ride into formation in the morning in a Porsche had it's envy benefits. LOL

All I can say is it would completely depend on the woman. My feeling is it might even surprise you how devoted they might be.
It's not like they'd be tempted by curiousity. LOL

Lastly, a prostitute is not always a slut. A slut is ALWAYS a slut.

Go for it Ade, just get to know the REAL person, you might be surprised. There's an old joke about the hooker with the heart of gold. I met two in Germany. Perhaps you have as well.

Fire away!

Bob

Posted by: That1Guy

Great story Ade!

I think you've got a good attitude regarding Maria. Strange one there for certain. Good luck on your next trip!

guy

Posted by: Zmejka

Hello guys!
This will be my first post on this forum - so please be gentle

I know this is the old thread and i don't know how the relationship progressed (if so) since that time. i just wanted to reveal my opinion on the subject that some prostitutes can have hearts made of gold (especially in fsu).
It seems to me that some of you guys are being taken away of your travel being a bit exotic to you - so seems the women you meet you place in different cathegories comparing to the cathegories you would place them in your own countries. So if you avoid (or irrelevant) meeting such women in your own country and wouldn't think they can be your soul mate - why then you consider meeting women of the same profession in fsu? Even if this happens accidentaly - why then continue being serious about it? Sometimes i think that your judgement can be oveclouded by different standarts of living fsu women have. But just for the information - chosing this kind of job doesn't depend on your standart of living - guys, i don't want you to be mislead. It totally depends on a person's character - so if she chose it for herself, she's responsible for her own decision. I know there are millions of other women who would never do that being in the same conditions. The same about women asking for money. I heard of a saying that prostitutes can become good wives due to their better understanding of men. Anyway every choice that you make it's your choice. I just can't hear the wrong justifying of some people's actions. Good luck to everybody!

Posted by: Cheburashka

Welcome to the forum Zmejka and thanks for the thoughts.

Posted by: Zmejka

Thank you Cheburashka, i found this forum not so long ago and can't stop reading. And i just read that the author should be happily married by now - all is well that ends well

Posted by: Ade

Hi Zmejka,

Yup, I'm happily married now

However, you are wrong in some of the assumptions that underlie your comments - because what you say assumes that people are the same the world over - and whilst this is true at a basic level, it takes things out of context.

In the FSU, people haven't got the support mechanisms (e.g. benefit payments etc.) that are in place in the UK (and US, I think, and most of Europe, I believe)......and out in the wilds of Siberia, the reality can be closer to the poor countries of Africa than the rich countries of Western Europe. I remember seeing, in Ulan Ude, very large grafitti that read 'Russia, help Russians' - and I think that speaks quite eloquently.

In the UK it is quite clearly the case that prostitution splits into three broad bands - those who decide to be escorts, and can make a good living at it; those who work in parlours to bring in extra income, or to avoid (for whatever reason) regular work; and street workers, who are largely involved in drugs. None are involved because they need the money to be able to eat.

In Africa, and parts of the FSU, they do need to be able to put beans on the table. And there are a lot of very nice people involved in what is otherwise seen as a sordid trade.

But then, at least they are doing real work, unlike stockbrokers

Regards,

Ade

Posted by: Zmejka

Hello Ade,
I believe that whatever people do - it's their choice based on life perception. I wouldn't compare living in poorest areas in fsu to some areas in Africa because i have never visited any of mentioned places (luckily). Still some people chose that style of life, some not. Every woman in fsu earns money to be able to eat (untill they're not married to quite rich guys who allow them to stay at home), some have 2 jobs. My personal perception of working girls is that they preferred to step on the wrong road, no personal sircumstances justify them -because there're people may be 10 times poorer than them - and still they can't think of such way of getting money. It doesn't make them bad people in general, they just have different moral standarts may be. And it's glad that they still have chances to meet nice guys who would want to stay with them.

Posted by: ira156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zmejka

Hello Ade,
I believe that whatever people do - it's their choice based on life perception. I wouldn't compare living in poorest areas in fsu to some areas in Africa because i have never visited any of mentioned places (luckily). Still some people chose that style of life, some not. Every woman in fsu earns money to be able to eat (untill they're not married to quite rich guys who allow them to stay at home), some have 2 jobs. My personal perception of working girls is that they preferred to step on the wrong road, no personal sircumstances justify them -because there're people may be 10 times poorer than them - and still they can't think of such way of getting money. It doesn't make them bad people in general, they just have different moral standarts may be. And it's glad that they still have chances to meet nice guys who would want to stay with them.

Welcome Zme, very wise comments. i have always been of the belief that i am no one to judge people, i either agree with their lifestyle or not...but no one should judge others. As i said you have a good outlook on life and once again welcome.

Posted by: Zmejka

Thanks ira156, hope to be of help if i can. Seems like a nice place

Posted by: Ade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zmejka

Hello Ade,
...SNIP..Every woman in fsu earns money to be able to eat (untill they're not married to quite rich guys who allow them to stay at home), some have 2 jobs. My personal perception of working girls is that they preferred to step on the wrong road, no personal sircumstances justify them -because there're people may be 10 times poorer than them - and still they can't think of such way of getting money. ...SNIP....

Hi,

Sorry, but you are wrong - if I understand what you're saying; every woman in the FSU doesn't earn enough to be able to eat....unemployment is very high in some areas, and people don't earn enough to support themselves from normal work, so they rely on handouts from family and/or friends; or steal, rob, mug, whatever is necessary.

Not everyone in the UK earns enough to buy their basic necessities....but the state supports them.

These girls in the FSU don't necessarily have different moral standards....they have the same range of standards as the rest of us; they are, however, in a vastly different situation to us in the West.

And of course, any generalisations also ignore the specific aspects of any individual case, which again make a vast difference.

Regards,

Ade

Posted by: Zmejka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ade

every woman in the FSU doesn't earn enough to be able to eat....unemployment is very high in some areas, and people don't earn enough to support themselves from normal work

I'm sorry - seems like you're wrong here. I understand that in some areas rate of unemployment can be higher than in others - but it doesn't mean there are no low level jobs that people can take, they're always available. And they can take 2 jobs as i told before. And i know people working like that - they live on the pooverty border - but still may be they're not able to buy clothes when they want or some appliances - but food? Just simple food -don't fool yourself please, or don't be a pray to those telling you that. Those times when people couldn't buy bread or needed food now gone. Lately i read a story of an american living with an ukrainian woman - he describes his day-to-day life. At one point they went to the lake with many ducks and geese. And that lady said that you won't see them in Ukraine because people would catch and eat them. So what image of fsu in general did she provide to him? What we're so desperate to catch and eat ducks from lakes? What a BS! Also about her acceptance of making love to a boss if he would give her a job - and that man thought that this is common here. NO and ONCE AGAIN - NO!!! It all depends on a personal choice - why not most of people even in the poorests areas are doing that kind og job? Because some of them think it's low and they have their pride and decency. Usually those who're working like that have a lot more than just food - they have fancy clothes and things. So it's not only for food, it's just easier way to get money.
So let's then release murderers and thiefs - they may be had to do this because they didn't have enough food. But everything in our life is about choice - you take actions and you're responsible for them, don't be sursprised that though the situation could be different over here and there - the attitude towards girls of this profession is the same.
I tried to explain how i see the situation. I forgot whose words are the following: I can disagree with your words but for your ability to express them i would give my life. So i just wanted you to form your opinion according to real life.

Posted by: ira156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ade

Hey Ade i read that he thinks that women DO earn enough to eat and (its his personal belief) that they dont need to resort to prostitution to survive. And while i cant speak of all Russian women....my Nat has definately got different morals to most of the women i have met in Australia. Cheers Mate

Posted by: ham

well, of course prostitution pays (cash wise) much better than any other profession; most prostitutes would abhor simple jobs as cleaning maid or supermarket clerk or else, barred the very occasional exception.
ten minutes of sweat (because those who have been with prostitutes know there's mostly not much more ) pay better than one day, one week or even months (in the FSU in the case of high-end escorts ) of regular job.

sex-wise most of today's women have many sexual partner, and we aren't talking about 2 or 3, so the "moral" difference grows thinner&thinner. With prostitutes, however, the game is open, no "headaches" etc.

Posted by: Ade

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

Hi Ira,

That's how I read it also - sorry if my reply wasn't clear enough.

However, he's still wrong. He quite clearly says he's not been out there; I have, several times, and there are lots of people who don't earn enough to eat properly, and do have to rely on handouts or illegality to provide for themselves.

Zem, I'm not imagining it, I've seen it; and no, there aren't always poorly paid but honest jobs around, just waiting for people to drop into them. That is the reality in Bratsk, at least - high unemployment, and not the easy life we have here. This I've seen with my own eyes, and know about from people there - and the people I know there aren't all poor, so I'm not getting a disjointed view.

You can pretend it's otherwise if you wish, but that doesn't alter the reality that I've encountered.

Ade

Posted by: Zmejka

Ok Ade i agree that some people do it in some areas that are extremely poor. Really i never saw that areas and that people though i was born in Russia and have been living there for all my life (left only 5 months ago). But still it's not what all poor people are doing - just didn't want others think this is so common in fsu. And i think you agree it's still not common, you saw the cases of exception. May be i read it wrong before but you said it like "every woman in the FSU doesn't earn enough to be able to eat". And i protested against that.

Posted by: Texas Proud

Zme...

Nice to have you here.... good thoughts from you..

Remember that Ade has decided to marry this girl... so he has a completly different perspective than you do... and he is trying to defend the decisions of his wife (from what I am reading)...

I actually agree with Zme.... it is a personal decision that one makes... and you can say all you want, but MOST people do not even consider this course of action... and there are starving people in the UK.. I saw them on the streets just like I saw them in NY and here in Houston... so, she made the decision to sell herself for sexual pleasure of someone else... it has been done... can't change it...

So, Ade, it seems like she is a nice woman and you two love each other.. that is all that matters now... so the people like me who disagree with the decision that she made when she was younger you have to ignore... you will never change our opinion... it is an OPINION... and since you are happy... why would you care???

Posted by: Zmejka

Thanks Texas Proud for your opinion.
But really a relationship should work for both people involved - and if you, Ade and your partner share a common ground in many questions - i wish you all the best.

Posted by: ira156

Lets face it guys ...VERY FEW...prostitutes in the west do it to feed themselves....99% would do it for drug addiction. I personally dont have a problem with prostitutes who do it for money...with their choice not clouded by drugs...and that do it safely healthwise. And no i dont frequent prostitutes. Would i want one for a wife ....sorry but no thanks.....as zme says there are other ways to make money and i gives me an indication of their morals and self respect. and personaly it doesnt match mine.

Posted by: Ade

Hi Texas,

I agree that I should - and do - ignore the opinions of people whose view would upset my life.

However, opinions can be changed by reasoned argument, and I don't mind other people expressing their view when it can lead to intelligent discussion, however heated. So I really don't mind seeing other people's comments either; they aren't going to affect my marriage.

Quick aside here; no-one in the UK starves unless they want to (excepting cases of parental/familial abuse) - there are boundless support mechanisms in place, and we really can't use the situation in the UK as an analogy to elsewhere. That's a fact - people don't starve here because they can't access resources for food.

It is all too easy to condemn prostitutes for their moral/lifestyle choices, but this is certainly a case of what they're doing hurting no-one but themselves - whatever their reasons for getting involved in the trade. I'd also ask (and I don't know the answer - if anyone does, please let me know) when the prevalent attitude to prostitution began? Is it Victorian? Anyone know historical attitudes?

And I don't quite know why - I've no background in this area, and it isn't stemming from my wife, but I have never thought of prostitutes as taking the wrong road, if they've chosen to do this, like the many professional escorts we know exist. I am sometimes saddened at the thought that some women see this as the only way to gain money they need to live on; but if they actively choose it as a career, then good for them!

Hi Zme, no, I was saying that not all women in FSU earn enough to feed themselves properly - I didn't mean for anyone to read it as most women are in this situation.

But at the end of the day, I'd still rather be with a woman who'd worked as a prostitute than a woman who'd been a thief.

Ade

Posted by: Ade

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

Lets face it guys ...VERY FEW...prostitutes in the west do it to feed themselves....99% would do it for drug addiction. I personally dont have a problem with prostitutes who do it for money...with their choice not clouded by drugs...and that do it safely healthwise. And no i dont frequent prostitutes. Would i want one for a wife ....sorry but no thanks.....as zme says there are other ways to make money and i gives me an indication of their morals and self respect. and personaly it doesnt match mine.

Hi Ira,

I'm not sure that it says anything about morals at all; and I certainly don't think the morals of a prostitute are any worse than, say, credit card company managers charging 25% p.a. or professional sportsmen accepting pay that is out of all proportion to their contribution to society.

Really.

As for self respect, again it's easy to take things out of context - in my nice little life, I've never had the slightest intimation that there could ever be any situation where I'd have to do anything I found personally unpleasant to any significant degree.....but people in less fortunate societies all round the world are faced with that choice every day, and do what they have to do. My wife is now in the position that she has the same easy luxury in this matter as I do - and anyone now trying to entice her into a prostitution situation would quite probably get more than rough language from her; she's had it rough, and now appreciates a normal, quiet life.

We're actually looking for opportunities for her to work with women wanting to get out of prostitution or drugs rehabilitation/counselling, as she's dealt with these issues and may be able to help others avoid/escape this 'sub-world'.

Ade

Posted by: Justjohn

what a post Ade,
great stories and some good replies, one question for the few, are we all 101 % sure what our ladies have done for a living before we met them?

only my thoughts of course
John

Posted by: ira156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ade

Hey Ade, first of all i dont think i have the right to judge anyone, i am describing what my moral values are and what i will except for myself. I think prositution has its place in society or it wouldnt have lasted this long. I dont like the spread of drug addiction, and disease that comes with it. A lot of western pro's have a very low self esteme that has led them to drugs and the drugs have led them to the sex industry. As i said if a woman makes a clean and sober decision to do it ....and takes the neccessary health precausions then power to her. I hope your wife has evry success in giving help to those who want it....Cheers

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ade

It is all too easy to condemn prostitutes for their moral/lifestyle choices, but this is certainly a case of what they're doing hurting no-one but themselves - whatever their reasons for getting involved in the trade. I'd also ask (and I don't know the answer - if anyone does, please let me know) when the prevalent attitude to prostitution began? Is it Victorian? Anyone know historical attitudes?

1st thing Ade, great thread mate and a great attitude to those whose opinions are way different to yours.

Now to answer is some way your question, and some will roll there eyes but hey they can get over it. The attitude to prostitution you refer to is extremely old and is written about in many ancient texts that include Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman and even biblical texts as well. The profession has always had a stigma applied to it but funnily enoughl in the ancient texts when a prostitute has done something 'positive' for the winning side their position is society all of a sudden becomes positive as well. Ahab is a prime example of this. I could say alot more but I shall now shut up again.

Posted by: Cheburashka

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzGuyLooking

Ahab is a prime example of this. I could say alot more but I shall now shut up again.

Do you mean Rahab? Ahab wasn't an example of much that was good. Rahab made it into the Biblical hall of faith: Hebrews chapter 11. And she was King David's great grandmother if I remember correctly.

Posted by: Ade

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

Hi Ira,

I really hope my wife can get involved in helping those whose lifestyles may come back to haunt them; she's had all the experiences she needs, and pretty crappy ones they've been, some of them. Her family have been totally rubbish, and I have a hard time not demonstrating to her male relatives just how low my opinion of them is - in a physical way that transcends boundaries.

My wife got into it because she didn't want to sell drugs anymore - she'd seen how bad that was for people; her alternative only hurt herself. To explain her whole background would need a bigger post than I can manage tonight - had a few beers and watched fireworks

All things considered, I'd prefer my wife hadn't this background - but she has, and I wouldn't swap her for the world.

Regards,

Ade

Posted by: Ade

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzGuyLooking

Hi Oz,

Thanks for the post. There is of course, as I'm sure at least the UK and Aus guys will know, the case that a girl who sleeps around is a slapper, but a bloke who does it is a lad! And of course there is the contrasting attitude to sleeping with people for the hell of it, and doing it for pay.

Anyhows, in casual conversation tonight about this forum and prostitution, my wife made the remark that people in StP and Moscow don't know what Russia in Siberia is like, and that she knows girls working as prostitutes who have degrees and 2 jobs,,,but still don't pull in enough money to support themselves.

At times it is a harsh world...but not here in the nicest bit of Sheffield

And thanks for the comment regarding my attitude towards other opinions on the subject; here, though, it's relatively easy, as I know people aren't making personal comments. I do hope to see some of the people from the forum, and if I ever manage that, I know they'll love Seida when they meet her. She's one of life's happy-go-lucky individuals who doesn't bear a grudge and can't keep a smile from her face for long!!

Cheers,

Ade

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheburashka

Do you mean Rahab? Ahab wasn't an example of much that was good. Rahab made it into the Biblical hall of faith: Hebrews chapter 11. And she was King David's great grandmother if I remember correctly.

Typo Cheb, I did mean Rahab, but David was the Great Grandson of Boaz from the tribe of Judah and Ruth the Moabitess. Hebrews take their family tree from their paternal side. There used to be a small joke back in the days of Political (In)correctness that said gave her the name Rahab the Arab. But now people get upset over it so mst who now it don't say it (or even type it). Anyway Rahab was the Prostitute that allowed the Isrealite spies into Jericho and hid them from her Kings (the King of Jericho) men.

Posted by: Zmejka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ade

people in StP and Moscow don't know what Russia in Siberia is like, and that she knows girls working as prostitutes who have degrees and 2 jobs,,,but still don't pull in enough money to support themselves.

And who's talking about those 2 cities? Moscow is itself is a separate state in our federation with their salaries, even students there can get $800. But i'm certainly not from there. In my city $200 is a good salary. My mother makes it being an engeneer for 30 years. And her pension will be around $70.
Didn't want to make a stress on it again but what do you exactly mean by "support themselves"? Now we're talking about different things already aren't we? May be those girls think if they don't have a mobile phone - it means they can't support themselves. But it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have food at home. And if they still lack food with degrees and 2 jobs - i'm sorry this life is too cruel for them, so they chose how to support themselves - but why then they needed all those degrees?

Posted by: Texas Proud

Hey Ade,

Great posts... and I am glad that your wife has gotten out of that the bad situation she was in.. and yes, there are times we fall in love with someone that we would not look at in normal situations... you meet someone who had changed their lives and then learn something 'bad' (in your opinion)... what do you do? Say, goodbye?? Probably not...

And I do not look down my nose at her... I am sure she is a wonderful woman...

I have heard about some in the profession here that are 'normal' women.. they are not doing it for drugs or anything else, but that it pays a LOT of money and they like 'things'... they have a clientel that they control... not a street walker.. and like Ade said, I think it is better than a drug dealer... they all should be shot...

And are we not all able to change and redeem ourselves??? It sounds like that is what she is doing.. and I am sure she will help out a lot of women in the future and of course.... love Ade...

Cheers Mate..

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud

I think it is better than a drug dealer... they all should be shot...

Maybe a bad coice of words TP considering Ade has already informed us she went into prostitution because she didn't want to seel drugs anymore.

Posted by: ira156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ade

All things considered, I'd prefer my wife hadn't this background - but she has, and I wouldn't swap her for the world.

Regards,

Ade

Hey Ade , as i said i dont think anyone has the right to judge. You wouldnt swap her for anything in the world.....and thats all that matters

Posted by: Cheburashka

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzGuyLooking

Check out Matthew 1:5. I had to go look it up.

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheburashka

Check out Matthew 1:5. I had to go look it up.

5 Salmon became the father of Boaz by Rahab. Boaz became the father of Obed by Ruth. Obed became the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse became the father of King David.

So taking it by generations:
David is the son of Jesse;
Jesse is the son of Obed (so Obed is Davids Grandfather);
Obed is the son of Boaz (so Boaz is Davids Great Grandfather who was married to Ruth so she is his Great Grandmother because she is the partner of his paternal Great Grandfather and she was his biological relative);
Boaz is the son of Salmon (so Salmon is Davids Great Great Grandfather)

Now if Salmon was the partner of Rahab who gave birth to Boaz then that makes Rahab Davids Great Great Grandmother because she is the partner of his paternal Great Great Grandfather who was Salmon and she herself was his biological relative.

Posted by: ham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ade

there is a gross flaw in the "poor thing F O R C E D to sell herself to survive "...a girl in a remote peasant region (where wealth is considerably less than in big cities ) will in & by itself have virtually no client; or her client base will be unable to pay the edge prostitutes usually require. That is why many move (even to cloud their "career" to prying eyes ) to big cities. Big cities, tough, offer many alternative.
I corresponded once with at least a couple women ( besides meeting real prostitutes in brothels ) who admitted they had "friends who were into it", but they talked with so much insight their "friends" could have been themselves.
In no case the pathetic "poor thing" scenario was mentioned.
Students who wanted to fund their studies while "meeting interesting people"; women wanting to fund lifestyles; pretty single mothers who "worked" a few months a year, then spent the rest of the time comfortably raising their children. One was a waitress in Tallinn. A pretty single mother in her early 20's. So pretty that the owner of that upscale restaurant told me one of his visiting, single wealthy friends got in love with her and wanted her as his mistress. Guess what? She turned this wealthy old man down for whoring in Helsinki during the weekend. The reason? Keeping her "freedom". Another pretty waitress there was in a dysfuntional lifestyle of drugs and f@ck buddies. Another VIP customer fell in love with her and he was turned down as well. So the "poor thing" scene really struggles to hold water. A polish prostitute in Switzerland in her early 30s said she had a child whom she left with her parents during her "artist tournees". I asked whether she'd like a conventional job and she said no way she would work 10h a day for pennies etc.

Prostitutes are just people with the difference you "know" what with other girls might be hidden.
Many might seriously contemplate a change of lifestyle.
The main issue is that they might have a "shortcut" attitude, which might come back in life.

Most of the strip club girls i ever met had a drug problem. Started borrowing money from pimps, then couldn't give it back and were forced to sell themselves to pay for their debts. In turn drugs helped them cope with the "business". I had 2 girls offering themselves to me had i paid the pusher's fee.

Posted by: bingism

Just been talking to Zhanna on this subject.

Personally, I think that people make their own decisions in life and that they live with those decisions... people shouldn't be condemned since there is always a reason behind them which, at the time, that person thought was justification enough to do what they did. As long as their actions don't hurt anyone else, then so be it!

On the subject of whether people are "forced" into the sub-culture, that raised a few heckles on Z's back. Until recently, I was unaware that in Russia there is a welfare state (of sorts) and that you receive 1500rbls a month (�30/$60). Now, this is not a lot but just about enough to eat on for a little while - staples of bread, eggs, rice, potatoes, etc... In fact, I have managed to survive one week on 300rbls (including 9rbl cigarettes). It wasn't fun, but I did it - just! It would seem that a lot of the working girls here actually come from good families.

There are some circumstances, however, when things are different.... for example, mum and dad drinking, lose everything and abandon little girl to the streets; or, two children, dad leaves/dies and the 1500 has to support three (assuming no other family around). We couldn't quite decide what to think about these!

Anyway, there are ways to earn a little more money without "working"... There are girls here washing cars, cleaning floors and working in kiosks for whom the thought of the "sub-culture" is not an option. I guess it just depends on what lifestyle you prefer and how you feel about yourself and sex at the time.

All said, I will reiterate my opening statement... no-one should be judged against the standards of others. I personally couldn't do what Ade has done, although I respect him greatly for accepting his wife's past and believing in person rather than the profession.

Posted by: Ade

Bing,

Cheers dude!!

I'll email you tomorrow ( I hope!)

Mate, one day I'll post Seida's whole story; it won't be unique, by any means, but it is pretty crappy by normal standards, and would make a bloody good chic-flick

And that could well be her best answer. In my family, my sisters have had the info to work out Seida's past, though I'm not sure they have; my nephew, also my best friend, knows it all and couldn't give a stuff.

Don't know quite how the welfare state works there, but Seida wasn't getting it, and her reception job paid approx. �36 per month. As for it helping anything previously, Seida was basically made homeless by her mother at 14.....so when some gangster offers her a roof over her head and regular food, and all she had to do at the time was sell drugs, well.....it isn't that hard to decide, as they say in Trainspotting, to 'choose life'.

Ham, I never said anything about people being forced into anything, and Bratsk isn't a peasant town. It's a rich town, where gangsters rule the roost, and keep it quiet by co-operation amongst themselves and just unite to keep out those who want to clean it up. Not quite sure what the point of your last post in this thread was? And that's not taking the mick.

On morality; bus last weekend, Seida paid in shrapnel, then later realised she'd not paid enough, so insisted on giving the extra to the driver; despite me saying no. We all have different standards. And a lot of them don't really matter....

Adeski

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Ade you have a rare pearl with your lady, I am so happy that you found what you were looking for.

Posted by: Justjohn

she is a true diamond, look after her Ade she's a rare one, i truely wish you both all the luck in the world and hope you will be very happy together.
John

Posted by: ira156

hey ADE i wouldnt post her story...it would just leave her open for attack by the judgemental....and mate it doesnt matter who knows or what they think....its only the two of you that matter.

Posted by: Ade

Hi Ira,

I really have thought about posting her full story, because it's quite atypical of the cases where FSU women have met Western men...her educational background is poor because of her sub-standard parents, and she never imagined for a second she would meet a man from outside Russia.

I really would like to make it into a film; as a book it wouldn't work, because no-one knows her, but as a film I'm sure her story would appeal to women in particular.

But maybe I'm biased

Oz, John, and others, thanks for the kind words....she's the best thing that's happened to me, and I can honestly say I also think I'm the best thing that's happened to her!

Right now she's recovering from an operation on her nose. The doc had to break it, so she looks like a mess. I think it makes 9 times her nose has been broken, but the first time it didn't involve her mother pushing her, or getting into a fight.

I love her to bits, she's - without doubt - my Siberian Princess. I'm a lucky, and happy man.

Adeski