The Russian Meeting Place: A place to meet people and talk about all things Russian...

International Discussions about Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Travel, Music, Russian News, Ukrainian culture, Belarusian Dating, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kiev and other intelligent topics about life in the former Soviet Union.

     


                                

              

Pages: 1

Do we have a deal-breaker?

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: postcaptain

I have a relationship problem for which I would like some advice. Tanya has broken up with me for the second time and this time she seems adamant. With your input I may be able to understand the situation better. Here's the background briefly: We met and became acquainted through email correspondence on a well-known American-based marriage agency website. We are both single parents, and we have a 16 year difference in age between us. We're both divorced about the same length of time. Our kids are similar ages. We graduated to a smaller, local agency through which we had translated phone conversations. We felt a very strong connection and I went to visit her in Sevastopol in April 2004 for one week. We hit it off immediately, emotionally and physically. She was an attentive hostess and able tour guide, scheduling something for us every day. We fell in serious like, if not love. There was one negative that arose however. In our communications before we met, she had not fully disclosed her past life and work in Turkey, as a calypso dancer in a nightclub. I was curious as to why she spoke Turkish and she had answered that it was because she had a girlfriend living there whom she visited. When we met she revealed that In reality, she had lived and worked there on two six-month tours. She also talked about a past serious relationship (with a married man) that she had there. Okay, no big deal, it's the past, but I wondered aloud why the initial lack of disclosure. As a single Dad, my only concern about this was not about her past, but what does past behavior indicate about the future. My conclusion was that she had good character, but had made mistakes from which she had learned. I was also satisfied that she had not been a prostitute. At the end of the week, we were both on a high, and quite sure about each other. We continued our correspondence.
Skip ahead two months. In early June, I wrote her a letter questioning why her profile was still on the internet, as I had removed mine. It was foolish and born of frustration, insecurity, misunderstanding and ignorance. My tone and attitude were somewhat indignant, and she reacted extremely negatively. She wrote back breaking our relationship off. It became clear to me that there was absolutely no one else in her life, but that she was used to being very independent, and not having to explain herself to anyone. Through my perseverance and the help of the local agency rep, I worked my way back to her heart. I cancelled our plans for a week in St. Petersburg, and instead went straight to Sevastopol for two weeks in July 2004. We slowly but surely mended our relationship and were back on the path to a happy future. I even met her parents and nephew with whom she lives, and her son briefly, as she wanted to shield him until absolutely certain about me.
Then came five months of long-distance relationship. Her English improved tremendously, and I began Russian lessons with a tutor. It was up and down however, mostly due to misunderstandings in communications (telephone, email, text messages). The key issue for her is "jealousy" as she sees it. I don't know how to explain why she feels I'm jealous. I don't feel myself to be jealous at all, but I can understand that she might interpret things that way. For example, one week I called her every day, and sometimes twice a day, which she appreciated. However, I didn't reach her for whatever reason one day, and called and called her home. When she finally answered she was in a bad mood about her son and math homework, and what she felt to be my very "controlling" behavior with the calls. She was very rude, I politely said goodbye and resolved not to call again. After almost two weeks, she called my mobile directly from the post office (very expensive for her). I called her back at home an hour later, and she apologized sincerely without prodding. I even spoke with her father and friend Natasha who were present in the kitchen. We all had a nice conversation, but she did say this - "no more jealous, okay?". I didn't quite understand it. We continued.
Finally I was able to get away and we spent a very intimate week together alone in Odessa, at the end of Nov. beginning Dec. 2004. We had a good time even when we actually left the apartment - discos, restaurants, avoiding demonstrations, shopping, I even was able to do some investigative engineering work at a nearby port village. We hooked up with another friend of mine from the agency website, a Russian woman living in Odessa, friend only. She and Tanya hit it off, and conversed mightily, but there were some rocky moments when topics of the past came up during our vodka laced conversations, and hurtful words were exchanged between us. Upon reflection, I felt that I was insensitive and indelicate to make comments that, although intellectual in nature, were taken very personally by Tanya. She probably felt I was demeaning her character. She also said some hurtful things to me, but I let go of any hurt, as we were both drunk. But by the end of the week, we were quite happy and looking forward to our next meeting.
Now we are back in our world not yet three weeks, and split yet again. The trigger for this was that I called her at the hour she told me, she wasn't home, so I called her mobile many times, no answer, then I became angry and frustrated, and wouldn't call her the following days, only sending text messages inquiring why. It turns out that she was out with her parents and left her mobile behind. She didn't like my insinuations by text message, and became very angry when I finally called her, even though I was light-hearted and calm. I only wanted an explanation, which in person, resolves everything, but across a distance, is so hard to achieve. She said she is "exhausted with my head games" and she is sorry, but she doesn't want me to call anymore. Through the agency rep (again) she's said that things will never change, and that I will continue to "torture her with jealousy" and continue to bring up her past.
There are many other details in the background, such as how compatible and well-suited we are for each other, how we have similar values and goals, how we both want one more child, how effortless is our working together, like two hands, and also how much passionate emotion, good and bad, each of us stirs in the other.
I don't understand how this "issue" undoes all of the good and positive in our relationship. I don't understand how she needs to throw it all away. Am I really unbearably "jealous" when I, under the stress of raising two kids alone, and work responsibilities, sometimes need a kind word and a hug from her? Am I such an ogre as to want want want what we don't yet have?
I don't really know what I'm asking for here, maybe something I can't see. What can I do or say to win her back, besides the heartfelt letters and flowers? Ask me questions, and I'll fill in the blanks. Thanks for any comments, I appreciate this forum and your help. Michael


Posted by: Jill

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Michael. But it's hard to really get what's going on without hearing her side. The way you've portrayed it, I don't see anything wrong with what you've done and would actually say you have shown more patience than I probably would have

But you need to take a hard, honest look at your behavior. Are you really being more jealous and controlling than you've let on here? There is actually a very fine line between "concerned" and "overbearing." Have you crossed it? Are you sure? Think about the tone you use when you talk to her, about your choice of words...Can they be interpreted as demanding (even if unintentional)?

Do you really ""torture her with jealousy and continue to bring up her past?" Likely she didn't initially tell you about her past because she is very embarrassed by it. If you forgive her for her past sins, then let it go. If you keep bringing it up (even in an "intellectual" manner), she may feel like you are throwing it in her face. That is probably quite hurtful to her.

If you can honestly say that you have not been doing these things, then the problem may lie with her.

She's very quick to call you jealous--is it possible that she is concerned because she is giving you a legitimate reason to be jealous? Is there is reason she needs so much space? I think you know what I'm saying here...But I certainly don't want to accuse her of things without knowing the full story.

On the other hand, what do you know of her past relationships? Has she ever dated a man who has been controlling and overly jealous of her? Perhaps this is baggage from a previous relationship? And she is--unintentionally--punishing you for how someone else treated her?

At the least of it, she seems a bit unstable to me. If she is so fed up with what she perceives to be your jealousy, why does she call you back? She seems to go up and down very quickly.




Posted by: postcaptain

Jill,
Thanks very much for your reply. I was hoping you would as I've seen your posts and respect your opinion. I really need to hear a woman's point of view.

You made all excellent points which I had already thought of (great minds think alike?).

I don't believe I've been overbearing, but I'm sure she perceives it otherwise. That's the key - it's the perception of being overbearing. For example, I use a phone card to call her and sometimes I get bad connections, strange tones and beeps, ringing, pause, ringing, etc. And normally she answers her phone. So I keep trying until I get through. But she sees 10 calls to her mobile and believes I'm nervous or worrying.

As for bringing up topics relating to her past, I'm sure I wasn't sensitive, because when I was giving her my opinion of men who cheat on their wives (which was negative as I never did it myself, and therefore can't sympathize), I inadvertently indicted her personally, I think. I don't know the facts about her experience though, other than she said "it was love".

It's true that she told me her husband got jealous, and she really didn't like it. In fact, during our first week together, she said she hoped I wasn't jealous, and my response was, "never, unless you give me something to be jealous about". And I shortly came to understand that there really is nothing to be jealous about. She lives a life with a lot of hard work at home, with her family, attending institute classes and with what jobs she's been able to pick up. She manages to get out with her girlfriends maybe once a month. And on top of that, she keeps up this up-and-down relationship with me. Part of my problem is my ex-wife essentially lied to me for 14 years, about almost everything. I became very cynical and forced myself to be less trusting and less of a target for scammers, so that attitude may have carried over.

It's true that she has a quick temper. I don't mind it, and I don't mind problems between us in general, as I believe they will always occur, but it's how we handle them that matters. After all, I raise a 9-year old boy, and 7-year old girl alone for the most part, so I think I know what counts and what doesn't.

I have another theory, and it's this: our relationship had been going in a good direction for some time, and I know she's been thinking a lot about marriage and a move to the US. Much of our conversations have been domestic in nature, even if a bit early. I think she's very apprehensive and is seizing upon anything to avoid a decision.

Thanks again, Jill.

Michael


Posted by: Jill

You make some very good points. From what you've posted, it seems you both have some baggage carried over from your previous relationships. You've been lied to in the past, and if her ex was jealous, she likely feels defensive about anything she perceives to be controlling behavior. You are probably both subconciously tormenting each other and that's something you will both need to work on. You've got to let up a bit (come on, Michael, if you KNOW she doesn't like all the calling, then stop doing it!) and she needs to understand that her defensiveness is really directed more at her ex than at you. My husband actually used to have that same jeolousy paranoia as the result of an ex who really was pathologically jealous and controlling. Once he understood where this behavior was really coming from, the behavior stopped completely. Until that time he would sometimes flip out over very small and completely innocent comments.

As for the "next step" issue, you could be right. She could be freaking out at the looming changes and all that stress is coming out in these fights. It could well be a kind of avoidance tactic (conscious or subconcious) to avoid making such a major decision--both a new marriage and a new country.

Give her some time to cool down and then try to talk to her again. Just don't come off as being pushy and controlling--she is obviously very sensitive about that. Have a long, calm, non-accusatory discussion about jealousy and about a potential future together--find out if she really wants one. And leave the past to the past (if you really believe that it's in the past and is no longer a threat).

Good luck to you, Michael!


Posted by: postcaptain

Thanks for the good advice, Jill.

I'll lay off the coffee and just focus on being mom and dad.

And if we ever speak again, I'll try to get her to discuss things calmly. At the moment, she's even telling the agency rep. to tell me to stop sending flowers and stuff.

Have a good holiday season.

Mike


Posted by: steve27t

I have a great relationship with my finace, I have just applied for K1 visa and I briefly had a relationship with another FSU girl before finding my love. My best friend has married a girl from FSU, and from what you write I see some interesting observations.

I would say that your actions can be interpreted as being a little "over the top". I think it is not so much your calling many times, but then not calling. Life is more difficult for most of these people, they do not have our conveniences and it is easy for us to get upset when something does not happen right "now". For them it is very different, they probably have way more patience and difficulties do not de-rail or upset them to the same degree.

Both myself and my friend have had instances like you describe where you can seriously concerned, but later find out a very innocent explanation. It takes some serious self control to handle but if you are going to rescue this you will need it. good luck.


Posted by: James Riske

You'll find that when you get advice from a woman, it will be overtly one-sided and skewed toward sympahty for the woman.

In this case, your 'over the top' behavior comes from the nagging feeling you have because of this:

""""""""" In our communications before we met, she had not fully disclosed her past life and work in Turkey, as a calypso dancer in a nightclub. I was curious as to why she spoke Turkish and she had answered that it was because she had a girlfriend living there whom she visited. When we met she revealed that In reality, she had lived and worked there on two six-month tours. She also talked about a past serious relationship (with a married man) that she had there. Okay, no big deal, it's the past"""""



Want me to give it to you straight? She's a whore and a liar. Plain and simple. Calypso Dancer? Please. She's a whore. It's common for young Russian women to do this in Turkey to earn a little money and there's nothing inherently wrong with that per se BUT she lied to you about it and concealed it from you. And her little affair with a married man? Please!

And don't tell me how she was just a dancer there and not hooking. Sure....sure...

Buddy, this woman has ZERO integrity and morals and you know it. That's why you're going 'over the top' with her, you know it in y our heart but you just don't want to face it. Very rarely can you reform a whore or trust them, they will always have an attitude about men and nickle and dime you to death.

Most guys make this mistake and ignore the warning signs, red flags, and their own gut feelings and try to fix the woman or continue chasing and trying to make the relationship work. It's hopeless.

The advice you're getting to coddle her and cool down and all that is ridiculous. Don't ignore the fact that she was a whore in the past, had an affair with a married man (and god knows what else she just hasn't told you), and is giving you an attitude.

Dump her and move on. There's so many fish in the sea, why would you even spend one more moment on a woman who lied to you about something so important in her past?

James


Posted by: postcaptain

Thanks Steve, for your sensible, clear-minded, intelligent, on-the-mark, kind and considerate reply.

Merry Christmas,

Mike


Posted by: Jill

Well, James, you certainly don't mince words

Maybe I'm an optimist, or maybe I'm just naive (I can guess what you will say about that, James ), but I think people can change and that they can learn from past mistakes and become better people for it. I too have made MANY mistakes in my past. But I've grown as a result of that.

And I don't think we can say for certain that she worked as a prostitute in Turkey. Yes, many FSU women do. So many in fact that "Natasha" has become the Turkish slang word for "prostitute." This is probably why she didn't tell Michael about her time in Turkey at first--because she knew that he would jump to the same conclusion that you did. Did she really work as a prostitute or not? I don't know. But Michael knows her better than any of use here, and he seems to have good reason to believe that she didn't.

Just my two kopecks.

Happy holidays everyone!


Posted by: rob_we

mhmm I wonder what that is actually... a prostitute.
For some it seems to be a woman that f* for money.
Mhmm I know a lot girls who have married rich guys without loving them. So those are prostitutes as well?
A girls that likes to go out, meets more then one or two men in her life, and gets her drinks payed by them, and maybe goes and have sex with some of them cause she feels like it...a prostitute?
A girl that decides for a more wealthier or older man because of the reason of stability and security... a prostitute...?

I think for some people anything older than 15 and no virgin is one anyway.
Maybe arabia would be a better place to go to get a virgin of 15 for some sheep in trade...
By the way, I would call a guy who works in a place he hates, and doing stuff he hates a prostitute as well.
As someone who copes with people he despises but sticks with them because he can get money out of them.
...and all of a sudden we are a planet full of prostitutes, cheap moral and questionable values..

Oh how I admire those, who in their high moral are so much above the rest of us, that their moral judgement just reveales what poor and disgusting creatures we are...

merry christmas...


Posted by: ConnerVT

Gee Rob, I understood what James wrote pretty clearly. A prostitute is a women who accepts money from people whom she does not know for sexual favors.

True, women have bartered this for a very long time, for a number of reasons and circumstances. Even your mother. Would you put her in the same category as these other women?

edit: spelling


Posted by: rob_we

Conner,
all I want to say is that this "high" moral values that some claim to have, and that some might encourage to judge any case without the slightest knowledge of what actually happened, make me puke... Its such a stereotype, it has nothing to do with individuals, and my point of view is that individuals are innocent until found guilty. ...but in the end of the day what is this prostitute problem anyway? I admire anyone here who did never do things hes or she is ashamed of, and I don´t see a moral problem of the profession "prostitute" anyway. I know some. (Think what you want about this), but I consider them to be much more "moral" than a lot of managers and lawyers i know as well ...

"moral" justification gives me always the creeps. It seems to me most of the time just an excuse to judge others for people who really feel bad about themselves....

...and it seems that "whore" for you guys is quite an insult. That might be the reason why you mentioned I would not want my mother to be called like this. Mhmm ... maybe true, if one looks at it through your eyes, but actually, then I personally would also have a problem if someone would adress my gf like this. The guy was asking for help here. I don´t think he was really looking for someone who calls the one he loves a whore


Posted by: wavetossed

In any case, the guy didn't say that she was a prostitute, he said that she was a dancer. There is a difference.

Dancers are generally very good looking women from top to toe. They work hard LEARNING the skill of dancing and they make their money based on this skill. They may go as far as stripping but it is quite uncommon for dancers to also be prostitutes.

Prostitutes, are not necessarily that good looking. Many of them would never even get a chance to audition for a job as a dancer. Their ability is that they can establish a rapport with a man, calm him down, get him aroused and have sex with him. To succeed in this profession, they need to be very tolerant and open-minded personalities and they need to be mentally tough so that they can be intimate with many men and yet avoid falling in love or getting attached to any of them.

It's a completely different skill. But then, there are lots of people who can't tell the difference between a butcher and a heart surgeon either.

Spend some time with Google and you will find forums for men who are specifically looking for foreign prostitutes to marry. These men specifically want a woman who is a prostitute, not a dancer.

Also, prostitutes aren't found only in Turkey. They exist in America too. And there are American girls working their way around the world as prostitutes, just like any other country.

I really think this is a non-issue. When you marry a woman older than about 20, there is no way to know everything about her past. You just have to accept her for what she is today and understand that over time, she will tell you stories about her past and some of them may shock you. But you are not marrying the past woman, you are marrying what she has become after those past experiences. If you like the resulting woman then just accept her past.


Posted by: rob_we

wave,
amen



Posted by: Jill

Quote:
Spend some time with Google and you will find forums for men who are specifically looking for foreign prostitutes to marry. These men specifically want a woman who is a prostitute, not a dancer.


Really? Why? What a strange world we live in

Quote:
I really think this is a non-issue. When you marry a woman older than about 20, there is no way to know everything about her past. You just have to accept her for what she is today and understand that over time, she will tell you stories about her past and some of them may shock you. But you are not marrying the past woman, you are marrying what she has become after those past experiences. If you like the resulting woman then just accept her past.


Bravo!


Posted by: ASoulmate4U

i agree with the idea that anyone that does anything for money is a prostitute. your jsut renting out a different part of your body.

I would say a women that lays on her back is a lot smarter the na man who labrs for 40 years and has a borke down body from ehad to toe.


the thing i wuld be most concerned with is "can a "prostitute" stop" becasue its an obvious health rsik to you as wwell as a possible mental and emotional etc etc risk to both of you as well,.

"if" the girl in qquestion is.


Which the orginal poster has not indicated.


As far as strippers being prostitutes and vice versa

i would say in all fairness you are more likely to find a stripper that is a prostitute, then you are going to find any other job doubleing asa porstitute.

Probably becasue its only one little more step, i mean after all if you get naked in front of 1000's of men whats sleeping with some ? jsut my theory. And i have known many strippers and some were prostitutes.


Posted by: postcaptain

The original poster (me) said he was satisfied that she was not. That wasn't my question. She was not and is not. I don't need to post the evidence. Wavetossed had the best insight and stated it well. I'm not going to respond to a rude assertion by some bitter, twisted miscogynist. Actually I'm surprised that the owners even allow him to post.


Posted by: gino

unfortunately post captain you have made the mistake of telling the forum some personal information about your relationship. your post will now be hijacked. it no longer matters (what you think) whether your g.f. is or ever was a prostitute. you have been tried convicted and sentenced by the forum elders. if you do not listen to them and (dump your girlfriend) they will criticise you to no end and you will become an outcast. you will notice that there are a select few men that only offer two words of advice (dump her) or (scammer) kick her to the curb. also, notice they never say anything about there personal relationship.
my advice to you is forget the past. let it go. dose it really matter what she did or not? are you proud of everything you have done in your past? no one can ever change there past. follow your heart and have faith. good luck. remember, the two of you come from different cultures. keep an open mind. gino


Posted by: postcaptain

Gino - I realized my mistake in posting almost immediately. Anyway, as I said in my post, past history isn't an issue for me at all, I think it's her perception of my attitude toward it. Nothing that some better communication couldn't cure.
Thanks for youir comments and advice.
Mike


Posted by: gino

im sure it will be a non issue over time. just show her that you have trust in her. that is probably her issue with the whole thing.
she may feel a lack of trust on your part. whether it is real or only her imagination. gino


Posted by: Missouri

Mike- I was glad to read your latest post- I think there are many, many people on this forum who look at it the way you do and are pulling for you. btw- I had to do a spellcheck, and learned a new word- it's spelled misogynist- Just a typo.
Scott


Posted by: postcaptain

Thanks Scott, I appreciate it.


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
Actually I'm surprised that the owners even allow him to post.


Well, James is entitled to his opinons and, even if others don't agree with them, he has a right to post them as long as they are within the forum guidelines. I don't think he meant to insult you, Michael. His words were strong, but he was just giving his take on the situation in response to what you had posted.

Anyway, let's get off of this tangent into the lives of prostitutes and back on track As Scott said, people here are pulling for you--each in his or her own way, of course.

Quote:
just show her that you have trust in her. that is probably her issue with the whole thing.
she may feel a lack of trust on your part. whether it is real or only her imagination.


Gino makes a very good point.

So, Michael, are there any updates? The holidays are a good time for reconciliations...


Posted by: postcaptain

Well Jill, I thought it was very insulting and very deliberate, but no matter; you're right, let's get off that.

No updates at all, not even word from the agency rep., who has a vested interest in our success, as he needs a successful couple to advertise his startup. He acts as an intermediary of sorts.

I suppose they are a bit reeling from the election results, she and he, as they and all their friends and family are all Russian-oriented and have been hearing all sorts of propaganda for weeks about what will happen to them if Yushenko is elected, e.g. lynchings from the trees in Crimea, US bombing, etc.

So I brought out the big guns - I had my kids make homemade greeting cards and notes for her for New Year's, real tear-jerkers, and I sent her photos from our week in Odessa and others of special interest to her ;-) I might do something more for her family, like a food/wine basket or something.

I'm just waiting to hear something. I've learned from past rifts to let her calm down and stew for awhile. If she really appreciates me and anything about what we've built over the last year, she'll gradually warm up. Thinking as an engineer for a moment, if I extrapolate from previous occurences, then I'd give this three months, if it happens at all. But I should know better than to think like an engineer - that's what got me into this!

Thanks for your support.
Michael


Posted by: FlashingEyes

Mike (postcaptain),

It is always brave and a sign of genuine concern and feelings on your part for wanting to find a solution to post your situation so honestly, as you have. You will get all kinds of responses, from very good advice to very bad advice, from easy to accept to hard to accept. The trick is for you to ignore the easy to accept bad advice and find the hard to accept good advice (and of course the easy to accept good advice as well, but that's not the trick).

I believe Steve's advice was very good, but he left a lot unsaid. I will do my best to try and help you, based on what you've provided.

First I would like to say that I have personal experience and some detailed second hand experience of other's relationships with women from the FSU and it's a very bad sign that you have had breakups like you have. Distance adds many problems to a relationship but it also adds some good things - and one of the good things is insulation from hasty actions. I have personally experienced a very long-term, long distance relationship with what most others here would probably call a more difficult than average FSU woman and sometimes we have been diametrically opposed on important issues, and angry, but neither of us ever even hinted at a breakup. This may be hard for you to accept and there's no easy way to say it but I think you have to recognize that her breakups with you are well thought out and indicate serious thought on her side that you are not the man for her.

Second, I am surprised you even bring up the Calypso dancer story. It seems clear to me that this was something she only felt comfortable telling you in person, so within a few days of actually seeing you in person, she told you. To me this is so basic and easy to understand, I think it's a bad sign that you even thought it important enough to include. Clearly, you are not as certain as I am that this detail is trivial. And the same goes for her past relationship. Again, it is so natural for me to understand her behavior in the light of before she didn't tell you because she wasn't comfortable saying this sort of thing except in person, and especially to a man she had never met in person. But in later conversations you indicate that intellectually you sort of understood what I have just said, but obviously on another emotional level you haven't come to grips with it completely, because it's still significant enough for you to include. And what is probably hard for you to accept is that you may have a serious problem understanding others, or more specifically her. Think about how I said this - it is your problem, not hers.

Third, you are certainly not the first man to experience the frustration of finding your significant other's profile still posted on the Internet months after you removed yours. I myself have experienced this, but I think it's instructive to consider the differences in how it was handled. To begin with, about two months after we were engaged, like you I noticed her profile was still on the Internet. But realizing this subject would be sensitive, I waited till we spoke on the phone and then I approached it very carefully. I said something like, "I am curious are you communicating with other men because I noticed your profile is still on the Internet?" She responded with a long explanation which I will narrow to she told the agency she was engaged and asked them to remove her profile but they were being slow in their response to her request (which was quite understandable to me because she's a real beauty and no doubt attracted a lot of attention). So I didn't mention this again AT ALL for another four months. At that point I noticed her profile was still on the Internet. So, like you, I wrote her a letter. But unlike you I had a pretty good idea of how she would react. I knew this would cause a controversy, and that she would no doubt be indignant and hostile in her response. I thought it through VERY carefully before writing the letter, and was extremely careful in how I stated things. Women do respect men who are willing to tell them how things are going to be, if it is done assertively yet respectfully. I basically stated that I did not feel it was appropriate for a woman who is engaged to another man to still have her profile on the Internet, and six months was more than enough time for her to have removed it. I also sent her the direct link to her profile. Then I tried to call her ONCE every night after she received the letter and I got through on the second or third night, and she was tearful and defensive as I expected she would be. I spoke very kindly to her, yet I was firm in what I had said before. Mostly I let her talk and tried to be understanding when she told me her difficulties with the agency not doing what they promised and removing her profile. I did tell her though that she shouldn't just believe the agency reps and that now I had sent her the link she could check to make sure the agency actually removed her profile. One of the last things I said was that I had thought a lot before I sent her the letter because I did not like it when we were upset with each other but I hoped that this incident would only allow us to grow closer because we would realize that we could have a disagreement and that our relationship was stronger than the disagreement; however, if it turned out that our relationship wasn't stronger than this disagreement, it was better we find it out now rather than in the future. By the way her profile was removed within a week. What I hope you can draw from this comparison is that your instincts are not completely wrong, but much more understanding and patience is required than what you displayed in this incident and perhaps others.

Fourth, don't involve agency reps or her family or your family or any other third party in resolving your problems with her. If you and she are unable to resolve problems together then you and she have no business being married.

Fifth, from your story, I see at least four breakups, the two you described and the two partial breakups you initiated; first, when you went from calling her once/twice a day to, after her complaining about your controlling behavior, you refusing to call her at all and two weeks later she makes a very expensive (for her) call to you and when you call her back she apologizes but also says "no more jealous ok?" And, second, the one you initiated in the following incident: "then I became angry and frustrated, and wouldn't call her the following days, only sending text messages inquiring why."

Sixth, "but there were some rocky moments when topics of the past came up during our vodka laced conversations, and hurtful words were exchanged between us. Upon reflection, I felt that I was insensitive and indelicate to make comments that, although intellectual in nature, were taken very personally by Tanya. She probably felt I was demeaning her character. She also said some hurtful things to me, but I let go of any hurt, as we were both drunk." Conclusion: deep down you both have a lot of hurt and things you do not like about each other; sober you are able to cover up your true feelings but when your inhibitions are lowered your true feelings come out. This apparently happened four weeks ago or so and I would say if you could post a text of the full conversation here we could all tell you exactly what is wrong with your relationship. By the way, in a relationship that is simultaneously intellectual, emotional, and spiritual, there is NO SUCH THING as words which are purely "intellectual".

Seventh, here's ten bucks betting that her words in this latest breakup are directly related to your words in the drunken conversation above: <>

My conclusion in all of this is that despite the facts of your ages and experiences and that you both have children yourself, that you both want to be the child in your relationship with each other. She has acted very childishly in a number of instances, which you have well documented. But you have also documented cases where you have acted very childishly; for instance, you have the above mentioned problem with being emotionally unable to accept things, even when you understand them intellectually (such as things she didn't tell you until she met you in person); you have documented that you need more patience and understanding; you have documented a proclivity towards introducing a third party (parent role) in resolving difficulties with your woman; you have documented partial breakups that you have initiated, when in result of anger you have stopped calling her, and thereby no doubt have caused her to conclude that you are not a reliable man, and have it in your character to leave her out of anger, possibly in a bad situation in a foreign country where she knows noone and has no means of support for herself or for her child; and you have admitted that you sometimes say things to her that later you realize seemed mean and nasty to her (something a child might get away with but an adult should be responsible for). I can assure you that this woman may want another child as you say, but she doesn't want this other child to be the man she marries. Although you list many ways that the two of you are a good match, both of you need someone with a lot more patience and understanding than either of you have to have a successful marriage - both of you need an adult if you both are going to continue to act as you have described.

So my probably hard for you to accept but very good (IMHO) advice to you is that you are not ready for a relationship with this woman and should spend some time by your self focusing on improving yourself in terms of the weaknesses you documented and I pointed out above.


Posted by: postcaptain

FlashingEyes,
Wow, I know good advice (even though it hurts) when I see it (I feel like I should hand you my insurance card and a co-pay). I will continue to be brave here.
You're on the mark with most, if not all of your points. If I may comment:
1. I'm not convinced her decisions to split are well-thought out, but quite the opposite. It seems that there's a trigger in her mind that I've inadvertenly managed to pull a few times. Jill said it well - I have a leftover sense of mistrust and Tanya has a hypersensitivity to jealous or controlling behavior. I think we have to work on this - not just me, not just her, but both of us.
2. You're right about my attitude about the nightclub calypso dancing in Turkey, but that was only an issue for me initially, back in April, and I got over it then. I only raised it here because I was discussing with her and our friend the reasons I was initially concerned. I thought I made it clear that it wasn't a problem for me now. You see, initially I wasn't yet aware of the severe stigma attached to RW working abroad.
3. Yes, you're right again about the profile, and I had it explained to me not-so-delicately back in June, and I got over it instantly. I could have handled it better, more like you did.
4. I agree, we have to solve this ourselves. I haven't involved the agency guy intentionally, he involved himself. He translates my more lengthy, language-challenging letters to her, and many times reads them to her over the phone. Naturally she responds and they have a conversation. He sometimes then relates to me what she's thinking, how she's responding, and then vice versa. I understood this well-intentioned game from the beginning, so I've always been careful to speak to him about her as if she were listening. I certainly don't rely on him for anything other than to deliver the mail, but he does pass good information.
5. I wouldn't say that my not calling her for a couple days can be called a breakup, but I'll allow that I could have tried calling again. There was also one other minor one cool period back in August. Let's not say breakup, let's say rift. So the one you counted plus that prior one makes six.
6 & 7. These are the most difficult to comment on because I don't remember exactly how the conversation got to where it did, but I can say that it had something to do with my friend Irina (Irina is engaged to a Frenchman via marriage agency) and Tanya talking about a number of general relationship topics, and then directing some of their frustration at me. And in the ensuing debate I came out on the bottom. It went something like this: past relationships - don't talk about them, we all agreed. It was Tanya who originally spoke about her great affair with a married Bulgarian, which I suppose is my chief complaint. I didn't want to know, I want to be assured that it's over, and I think cheating is wrong, period. About internet profiles, all agree. About her dancing job and past, Irina and Tanya agree, I should be more delicate. About interracial relationships, Tanya ok, Irina admits she is rascist and is against them (we're referring to Arabs, Turks, etc.). I express reservation about incompatibility, esp. with Islamists). About relationships with married men, Irina and I agree, bad and wrong, Tanya says ok if "love". I said "If love, then where is Bulgarian now?", at which point she dumped a quarter shot of vodka on my head. We laughed it off. I think we're on to something - I have a fundamental question as to her sense of morality, but only as it portends the future. I didn't bring the subject up, they did. As I said before, my sense of it is that for married men, cheating is not about love, it's only about sex, but I should never had said that to her out loud. Although she didn't show it, I felt this hurt her, and I genuinely apologized to her right then in front of Irina, so they would both hear it.
Later I tried to make it clear to her that I never wanted to have words like that about these topics between us again. It was too emotional too fast, and without careful thought.
I don't agree that we're telling the truth to each other only when we're drunk, I think we're only laying bare our fears.
It takes years to build trust but only seconds to destroy it.
I agree with your conclusion. I really need to learn to let it all go.
Thanks again for your comments.


Posted by: James Riske

Well thank goodness I didn't take the time to read all the responses. All I had to do is read the 'I"m surprised the owners allow him to post' remark.

Allow me to post what? The truth?

What is wrong with society and people today when someone is suddenly insensitive and should be censored for telling this poor guy the truth? For God's sake, want me to spell it out for you?

She admitted she was a dancer in Turkey and had an affair with a married man. Translation: She was a stripper (and I have yet to meet a stripper who wasn't a prostitute too) and she had a regular sugar daddy. Most strippers/prostitutes do.

How unwordly are some of you? How can you flame me and tell me I can't post simply because I'm stating the obvious. I'm not insulting anyone at all. It's patently obvious and anyone who lives in any big city and goes out at all and interacts with people (especially in the lower class) knows what I'm saying is true. Heck, I've lived in Los Angeles, London, Miami, and Chicago and lived with a at least three strippers, one prostitute, and on and on and on......And I can safely say without a doubt that what I'm saying is true.

And the other sneaky little truth is that since she's a liar (by the fact that she kept all this hidden from him) there's probably more she's not telling him.

You guys are far too 'touchy feely' to state the obvious and if you look back after all the advice I've given on here so far...OVER TIME, it has been correct 100% of the time. So, if you ask me, the owners should not allow YOU to post because you are costing men thousands of dollars, months of wasted time, and encouraging criminal activity by enabling swindlers and con artists. How do you like that logic?

This guy is WAY over thinking the situation, the woman is a hooker of low morals. In my book, any woman (or man) who has an affair with a married person ever is reason enough to dump and move on. That alone should give him reason to move on and not waste his time anymore.

The good news is that he's starting to realize all this and will move on. Or at least stop spending money on here or buying her things. Geeze.

The rest of you need to get a reality check and stop making excuses for the women all the time. The majority of them out there are users and game players and have low morals. That's a fact.

100% correct, yet again.

James


Posted by: James Riske

""""bitter, twisted miscogynist"""


You owe me an apology buddy. And I doubt it will be forthcoming. Isn't it ironic that I'm being painted as the bad guy and yet he is the one personaly insulting and attacking me?

Bitter? No, not really. Oh, I've been burned before, dumped, etc. but I don't brood about it. I still see my ex once in a while and we're friends; when we talk, I don't particularly feel bitter.

Twisted? Well, my advice so far on here has been 100% correct in the long run, 100% of the time. So there's proof that I'm well-grounded in reality.

"Miscogynist" Misogynist? No, I love women. I love good, honest women who love to have fun! I despise scammers and users. But the fact of the matter is that when one reaches the point of asking for advice as to whether or not they're being scammed on a message board 9 times out of the 10, they are. So, it probably seems that I think 90 percent of the women out there are scammers or users when I only feel that 70% or so are.

A Russian woman used to work as a Calypso dancer in Turkey and had an affair with a married man. No wonder your gut told you that it wasn't right. Don't flame or insult me for telling you the obvious.

By the way, has there ever been a Russian woman who dances in Turkey who isn't a prostitute? I just asked three Russian women in a row, one who is a prostitute now and used to work in Moscow and had a married sugar daddy too who took her to Turkey, and they all laughed and said, "Are you kidding? Why else would they go there?"


Go ahead and insult me all you want. In a year from now, you'll look back at me as your best buddy who helped save you from hooking up with this woman.


Posted by: Jill

Come on, guys, it's the holidays! Let's have some peace on earth (or at least the forum) and good will towards men (and women)!

James, I agree that you are well within your rights to post your opinions on a matter that has been described on a public forum.

But now that you have given your opinion on the dancer/prostitute issue, let's move on.




Posted by: sidney

Well James my wife seems to agree with much of what you said. I would give the woman the benefit of the doubt myself. It least until there were reason to think otherwise. Yes, infidelity is a touchy subject and one which can always be in the back of your mind. Happy holidays to all.
Sidney


Posted by: FlashingEyes

I sometimes very much agree with James Riske (not his real name) and sometimes very much disagree with him. But certainly it is arrogant of him to claim he has always been 100% correct.

What about last September (3 months ago) when he advised one man to dump his Russian girlfriend, writing, "any woman who wrote that to me or insulted my country in such a way for whatever reason I would have dumped no matter what 'global' area she happened to come from" and his reasoning was that although the Russian woman in this case was talking about her dislike for the actions of the US government, and clearly stated what she said was not about the man, saying "I love you in any case," Riske argued that "Her interest level in you is obviously low to insult you in such a way and take a risk that you'll dump her."

So - following Riske's logic - anytime any woman dating someone from the US says anything negative about the U.S. government, she takes a risk that her fiance from the US might dump her, so therefore by stating her opinion she shows her interest is low and she needs to be dumped.

But one of the Russian women on here pointed out how wrong Riske was, saying, "If [he] is open-minded, and does not think that his country is the best of the best of the best, sir, and he can actually tolerate other opinions rather then the one officially accepted in this country, his gf's opinion should not be a deal breaker. The fact that she is critical about the US does not make her a bad wife or a bad personality."

By the way the poster DID NOT follow Riske's advice and was rewarded because currently his relationship is happy and healthy. So Riske was wrong here, both generally and specifically.

The next day in a further response Riske made another error, misreading this lady's post and concluding that she "implied that she would never live with him [at] all on the basis of unsubstantiated propaganda." However, as I myself pointed out, the facts of what she said was, "One final thing - she said she doesn't want to leave her country during this time of trouble - that is NOT the same as she will never come here." So Riske was wrong again - "never" is an absolute and the lady's post did not imply or indicate "never", especially since she stated she loved the man despite her distaste for the actions of the U.S. government.

In fact, I do not recall a single instance where Riske ever advised any man to stay with his current girlfriend/fiance/wife. So if Riske almost always takes the position that the relationship will fail, and if only 50% of relationships fail on average, then he's wrong 50% of the time, if 90% fail on average, then he's wrong 10% of the time, but the point is he's not always right - he just takes a cynical view.

I'm sure if I went through all of Riske's 200+ posts I could find a wealth of other examples where he was wrong, but these were just a few I remembered off the top of my head.


Posted by: Vyesna

I find him extremely entertaining if frequently ridiculous-- post away!

As for the topic, I would say wait and see. Personally, I would also be hesitant to stay with someone who had a long term affair with a married person who had no intention of leaving his or her spouse and thinks that sort of thing is okay if there's "love", but that's a personal comfort level thing. I guess there's some situations where you could sympathize with how people ended up there, so I won't throw stones. I also would think that if she doesn't like the heavy calling, lay off. A lot of men can't stand that when their girlfriends/wives do it to them either. There's people who like that sort of thing and people who don't-- the analysis can stop there.


Posted by: gino

Hey FlashingEyes, I'm the man that you are speaking about. we were married November 3rd, and have never been happier in my life. yes, we still have disagreements about politics. however, i think it is normal, considering her upbringing. also, for the record we have filed the paperwork for a cr-1/ir-1 visa. so yes James was wrong on both counts. i am very very happy with my relationship. happy new year to all. Gino


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by FlashingEyes: So my probably hard for you to accept but very good (IMHO) advice to you is that you are not ready for a relationship with this woman and should spend some time by your self focusing on improving yourself in terms of the weaknesses you documented and I pointed out above.


Flashing Eyes, I agree with much of what you write, and I also agree with James Riske in many instances, but I am highlighting this part of your long post for a specific reason:

Its condescending. It doesn't add anything to your good advice. You are being sarcastic & disrespectful in your treatment of Mike. You may see it as blunt talk, but you are not considering the feelings of the person receiving them.

Stop anticipating how others will receive your remarks, make your remarks, and move on. You can do better than this!


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill: Really? Why? What a strange world we live in


Jill some men desire former/current prostitutes as wives because they are a good source of money, and they are comfortable participating in sex that other women might find unusual or objectionable.


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by postcaptain: I called her back at home an hour later, and she apologized sincerely without prodding. I even spoke with her father and friend Natasha who were present in the kitchen. We all had a nice conversation, but she did say this - "no more jealous, okay?". Michael


Mike--- I'm not trying to flame you, or get in a dig, so take no offense at what I am going to ask you, ok?

Did Tanya like to make little digs, or raise personal issues you find sensitive, in the presence of other people? Did she say things to you in front of other people that made you uncomfortable, that she knew would make you uncomfortable?

I know you had good times with her, but this girl is definitely tough to read. Was she 'unreadable' to you?


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by postcaptain: I'm not going to respond to a rude assertion by some bitter, twisted miscogynist. Actually I'm surprised that the owners even allow him to post.


Unnecessary Mike. Fact is, a number of journalists have pointed out since the 1970's that many women in the FSU turned to prostitution to supplement their incomes, in some cases, to get the necessities to live during the era of unbrandished corruption. I recall one article in Newsweek magazine that profiled a doctor who was hooking in Red Square. Her drunken state and smart mouth, noted by the writer, indicated to me that she did not like what she was doing.

Khashyar has posted articles in this forum describing how many young russian women find the life of a high-paid call girl as preferred employment. Overall attitudes towards sex/morals differ in the FSU from the dominant attitudes in america.

It appears that anyone dating women in the FSU has a decent chance of confronting the fact that the woman they are interested in, at one time, was a prostitute. James saw warning signs & is pointing them out. He's not a woman-hater, just a candid realist.

All this raises a great question: Ladies/Gents: Would you personally be able to marry a former prostitute?

A 2nd question: Do you personally believe that prostitution is essentially a sociopathic/psycopathic behavior? In other words, once involved in it- its a habit hard to break???


Posted by: Jim_FL

Off Topic

Quote:
Originally posted by gino
we were married November 3rd, and have never been happier in my life.


Congrats Gino! Nov 3rd is our anniversary too

Good Luck & Happy New Year

_____________________________________________

Flash,
Though you may not feel it's worth anything coming from me,
I'd just like to say that I was impressed with the though and insight you presented in your latest response to Mike...........

We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument PAKA


Posted by: gino

thank you jim!!!!


Posted by: FlashingEyes

BradIl,

You spoke out of turn, and you were incorrect about my sentence. Perhaps it would help if I broke down the sentence into phrases and examined them in turn:

"So my probably hard for you to accept..."
- 1st why correct?) I believed that my advice was something that Mike was going to find a bit hard to accept because even though I think he's a a good guy some of my advice was based on criticism of his actions in the relationship, and most people don't accept criticism of themselves well. - 2nd why necessary?) I believed that by emphasizing that I recognized that my advice would be hard for Mike to accept that I would cause him to think a bit more rather than just rejecting the advice out of habit.

"but very good (IMHO) advice to you"...
- 1st why correct?) I was sincere in my advice and tried my best to give good advice, so in my opinion the advice was good - 2nd why necessary?) Again I knew that critical advice is often harder to accept so I wanted to emphasize that my advice was sincere and well considered, so it would be received as such.

"is that you are not ready for a relationship with this woman and should spend some time by your self focusing on improving yourself in terms of the weaknesses you documented and I pointed out above."
- 1st why correct?) based on the incidents I had discussed I believed this is the logical and correct conclusion, succinctly stated. - 2nd why necessary?) although previously I had discussed specific incidents, I had not previously tied them together into this conclusion, and the conclusion was significant enough IMHO to warrant statement.

Now let's turn to what you said:

"It's condescending..." - this word means to lower oneself to the level of another, such as if one person cheats, you cheat in response. As such I consider this word ill-chosen and meaningless here. I did not feel that Mike was acting in any low way towards me, so I did not in turn "lower" myself to his level in my response to him. In general, nothing about my statement was low anyway - all of it was important and valid, I believed. Your criticism is vague and meaningless - without specific explanation as to why you believed your statement was defensable, citing what specific word(s) caused me to be lowered morally, your statement amounts to nothing more than a petty insult.

"It doesn't add anything to your good advice." - this comment is completely incorrect. It is the conclusion to my good advice, and what it adds is to tie together all the specific examples I had previously discussed into a general path forward, supplemented with adequate cautions that my statement is not made superflously and should be considered seriously despite the reasonable possibility that it would be difficult to accept.

"You are being sarcastic & disrespectful in your treatment of Mike." In order to prove I was being sarcastic, you are going to have to prove that anything in my statement was made with an intent to ridicule and wound Mike with scornful contempt. I defy you to prove this. As I have provided you the reasoning for all of the parts of my statement above, you will find that none include such an intent. In order to prove I was being disrespectful, you are going to have to prove that my statement was made out of a lack of esteem or regard for Mike, and again as the evidence of each part of my statement is provided, you will again find that such lack did not exist. In fact, it was because I felt Mike is a good guy, honest and noble in his quest to search out more about his relationship, that I was inspired to respond to him and offer what advice I could. Once again you have done nothing but make two more very vague, meaningless, ill-considered, indefensible, and rude insults to me.

"You may see it as blunt talk, but you are not considering the feelings of the person receiving them." - This was a speculative conclusion on your part, that turns out to be wrong. I did not make any part of my statement for the purpose of "blunt talk" as you suggest, but instead for the well considered reasons I have already cited. These reasons highly considered the feelings of Mike, as I made two important parts of my statement as a direct result of considering his likely feelings in response and realizing that there would be a good chance he would feel an urge to reject my advice out of "human nature" and thus I included a good deal of my commentry specifically as a result of considering his feelings.

"Stop anticipating how others will receive your remarks, make your remarks, and move on." - your advice here is so bad that almost any rudimentry text on how to give a speech or write an essay will reject it. Considering one's audience, and how one's audience will receive remarks is essential to effective speaking and writing. I find it particularly humorous that in the prior sentence you accuse me of NOT "considering" Mike's feelings, and in this sentence you advise that I should not bother to consider how he might react to my comments. At this point, your comments become even more ridiculous because of the obvious contradiction.

"You can do better than this!" - Yet another vague, meaningless insult to cap a long list of vague, meaningless insults, factual inaccuracies, and contradictions. Really I think that YOU are the one who could have done better, for the specific and detailed reasons I have cited.


Posted by: sidney

Flashing Eyes, I'll bet if you tried hard enough you might even be able to find something wrong with me.
Sidney


Posted by: FlashingEyes

Sidney,

Is there some deep dark secret you'd like to get off your chest?


Posted by: BradIL

Flashing Eyes---not to push this too far, but let me respond.

Condescension has more than one meaning, such as, lowering oneself to less dignified level, which I assume you are highlighting. It also means to assume an air of superiority, which is how I took the "probably" in your remark.

If you believe others don't take criticism well, be gentle in your approach.

Your analysis of the situation isn't so bad, actually I agree with much of it, I just would have stated it differently.

The sarcasm I detected is when you told Mike that both of you can't be 'kids' in the relationship. Pretty funny to me, I would have laughed, but by reading Mike's posts it appears this relationship is emotionally exhausting him. I thought you were being a little rough on him.

Well your advice and mine can be rejected in this forum. No one is required to accept anything. I detect a lot of personal swipes at times that can detract from otherwise very good posts.

No insult is meant to you, so don't get your back up. I highlighted what I thought you could leave out, the rest is fine. Your provide good posts, I don't always agree, but you make it interesting. So don't take offense.

Its 2005... peace my brother. ---Brad///


Posted by: FlashingEyes

BradIL,

The primary meaning of condescend is to lower - think "con" + "descend". If you mean "superior" say "superior". The word already exists and there's no reason to take a minor meaning from another word.

But regardless, you were wrong in your interpretation. Maybe you would have been ok if you said, "It sounded to me a little superior the way you phrased it." But you didn't. You said, "It's condescending." Period. So you went beyond just your interpretation or "how [you] took" it to making a statement of fact, which was factually incorrect. And since it was factually incorrect you were completely in the wrong, and insulting.

In your latest post you now want to claim that sarcasm existed not in the words you quoted but in some other words, but you didn't apparently feel those other words needed to be changed. I smell BS. You quoted specific words in your first post and said I was "being sarcastic & disrespectful". Again you stated these insults as facts. In fact, I was being neither, and have provided my reasoning for all my words. Again you were completely in the wrong, and insulting.

By the way, just a few days ago, a friend who is separated from his wife and I had a heart to heart and one of the things that came out was how so often neither party in a relationship wants to be the adult - both want to other to be the adult, so therefore both end up being children, "kids", in a relationship. So that's where that thought process came from - I consider it a very honest and important reflection on one of the key problems in many relationships, and thought Mike might have been experiencing a bit of it, so no, it wasn't said sarcastically, but as an extension of a thought process my friend and I had recently gone through.

I find it reprehensible that you want to talk about other people taking "personal swipes" and how "no insult was meant". You seem reasonably intelligent, and it's hard for me to believe you weren't aware that calling someone "condescending", "sarcastic & disrespectful" is a "personal swipe" and an "insult".


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Having read the posts ,I can also empathise with you. The fact that it is a long distance relationship , the fact that the language and culture are not the same as my own have all been obstacles which most men would not have tolerate.

My advice is..... give your lady a chance -be patient with her and with your self and learn russian.
Accept her and be gentle with her -the past is the past .

Trust is a big issue - I have had and still find myself doubting and being unwilling to trust but if I do not trust I am doomed to spend the rest of my life alone- if you can learn listen to her and stop doubting her I think this will work if both of you are willing to work on those areas of your personalities which are weakest


Rattle.


PS - Congratulations Gino !!!!


Posted by: gino

thanks pete. hey pete go online sometime. i need to speak with you.


Posted by: mria

Quote:
Originally posted by BradIL


It appears that anyone dating women in the FSU has a decent chance of confronting the fact that the woman they are interested in, at one time, was a prostitute. [/B]


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
I'm just laughing my head off at the fact that you have categorized any group of women in this way. What right have you got to say something like that?
If any Russian women knows you think like this, you'll be out the door quicker than you can blink.


Posted by: Jutman

Postkap.

I think I am a little like you, become frustasted and so on and wanna know, why she not answer and so on.

Well, I think you realy loves her, otherwise you wouln'nt react like that.
A bunce of flowers or so is always a nice way to apology. (I will learn, its always your fault )

And the good news. It change, as soon she will come to you. I hope it all will be okay and a advice:

hmm, I am sure have heard this one before. Try to put you, in her situation.


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by mria: What right have you got to say something like that? If any Russian women knows you think like this, you'll be out the door quicker than you can blink.


Laugh all you want, I may be out one door, but judging by the articles I've read about the FSU in news magazines over the last 20 years and in this forum, 50 rubles gets me through another door.

America has its relationship with prostitution, but the relationship it would seem to occur more frequently across the FSU. In fact, as in parts of the pacific rim, it seems to me more women participate in prostitution on a part-time basis (once of twice a month) than the streetwalkers/escorts we see in america.

Mria I'm certain you've read the articles posted on sexual attitudes in the FSU, do you agree with them?


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by postcaptain
I have a relationship problem for which I would like some advice. Tanya has broken up with me for the second time and this time she seems adamant. With your input I may be able to understand the situation better. Here's the background briefly: We met and became acquainted through email correspondence on a well-known American-based marriage agency website. We are both single parents, and we have a 16 year difference in age between us. We're both divorced about the same length of time. Our kids are similar ages. We graduated to a smaller, local agency through which we had translated phone conversations. We felt a very strong connection and I went to visit her in Sevastopol in April 2004 for one week. We hit it off immediately, emotionally and physically. She was an attentive hostess and able tour guide, scheduling something for us every day. We fell in serious like, if not love. There was one negative that arose however. In our communications before we met, she had not fully disclosed her past life and work in Turkey, as a calypso dancer in a nightclub. I was curious as to why she spoke Turkish and she had answered that it was because she had a girlfriend living there whom she visited. When we met she revealed that In reality, she had lived and worked there on two six-month tours. She also talked about a past serious relationship (with a married man) that she had there. Okay, no big deal, it's the past, but I wondered aloud why the initial lack of disclosure. As a single Dad, my only concern about this was not about her past, but what does past behavior indicate about the future. My conclusion was that she had good character, but had made mistakes from which she had learned. I was also satisfied that she had not been a prostitute. At the end of the week, we were both on a high, and quite sure about each other. We continued our correspondence.
Skip ahead two months. In early June, I wrote her a letter questioning why her profile was still on the internet, as I had removed mine. It was foolish and born of frustration, insecurity, misunderstanding and ignorance. My tone and attitude were somewhat indignant, and she reacted extremely negatively. She wrote back breaking our relationship off. It became clear to me that there was absolutely no one else in her life, but that she was used to being very independent, and not having to explain herself to anyone. Through my perseverance and the help of the local agency rep, I worked my way back to her heart. I cancelled our plans for a week in St. Petersburg, and instead went straight to Sevastopol for two weeks in July 2004. We slowly but surely mended our relationship and were back on the path to a happy future. I even met her parents and nephew with whom she lives, and her son briefly, as she wanted to shield him until absolutely certain about me.
Then came five months of long-distance relationship. Her English improved tremendously, and I began Russian lessons with a tutor. It was up and down however, mostly due to misunderstandings in communications (telephone, email, text messages). The key issue for her is "jealousy" as she sees it. I don't know how to explain why she feels I'm jealous. I don't feel myself to be jealous at all, but I can understand that she might interpret things that way. For example, one week I called her every day, and sometimes twice a day, which she appreciated. However, I didn't reach her for whatever reason one day, and called and called her home. When she finally answered she was in a bad mood about her son and math homework, and what she felt to be my very "controlling" behavior with the calls. She was very rude, I politely said goodbye and resolved not to call again. After almost two weeks, she called my mobile directly from the post office (very expensive for her). I called her back at home an hour later, and she apologized sincerely without prodding. I even spoke with her father and friend Natasha who were present in the kitchen. We all had a nice conversation, but she did say this - "no more jealous, okay?". I didn't quite understand it. We continued.
Finally I was able to get away and we spent a very intimate week together alone in Odessa, at the end of Nov. beginning Dec. 2004. We had a good time even when we actually left the apartment - discos, restaurants, avoiding demonstrations, shopping, I even was able to do some investigative engineering work at a nearby port village. We hooked up with another friend of mine from the agency website, a Russian woman living in Odessa, friend only. She and Tanya hit it off, and conversed mightily, but there were some rocky moments when topics of the past came up during our vodka laced conversations, and hurtful words were exchanged between us. Upon reflection, I felt that I was insensitive and indelicate to make comments that, although intellectual in nature, were taken very personally by Tanya. She probably felt I was demeaning her character. She also said some hurtful things to me, but I let go of any hurt, as we were both drunk. But by the end of the week, we were quite happy and looking forward to our next meeting.
Now we are back in our world not yet three weeks, and split yet again. The trigger for this was that I called her at the hour she told me, she wasn't home, so I called her mobile many times, no answer, then I became angry and frustrated, and wouldn't call her the following days, only sending text messages inquiring why. It turns out that she was out with her parents and left her mobile behind. She didn't like my insinuations by text message, and became very angry when I finally called her, even though I was light-hearted and calm. I only wanted an explanation, which in person, resolves everything, but across a distance, is so hard to achieve. She said she is "exhausted with my head games" and she is sorry, but she doesn't want me to call anymore. Through the agency rep (again) she's said that things will never change, and that I will continue to "torture her with jealousy" and continue to bring up her past.
There are many other details in the background, such as how compatible and well-suited we are for each other, how we have similar values and goals, how we both want one more child, how effortless is our working together, like two hands, and also how much passionate emotion, good and bad, each of us stirs in the other.
I don't understand how this "issue" undoes all of the good and positive in our relationship. I don't understand how she needs to throw it all away. Am I really unbearably "jealous" when I, under the stress of raising two kids alone, and work responsibilities, sometimes need a kind word and a hug from her? Am I such an ogre as to want want want what we don't yet have?
I don't really know what I'm asking for here, maybe something I can't see. What can I do or say to win her back, besides the heartfelt letters and flowers? Ask me questions, and I'll fill in the blanks. Thanks for any comments, I appreciate this forum and your help. Michael



Mike,

In my opinion yes, you have a deal breaker. Being an exotic dancer isnt the best wife material imho.... but, be that as it may, that isnt where the real problem lies. Its when you couple that with the fact that she was in a semi serious relationship with a married man. These are an indication of what kind of character she has.

With all due respect, I would tend to side with the fact that if she went on "two six-month tours." She was likely doing more than just dancing. Even more problematic is she lied about why she knows how to speak turkish.

You are thinking that you and she are in a relationship and she still has an active profile. That is a MAJOR problem. First how is it that you definatively KNOW she has no one else in her life? If this is true, why the profile or worse yet... if she doesnt WHY IS SHE LOOKING?

Beyond all of that, you are really at the beginning stages of the relationship and there is all of this stress... that is the biggest of all flags. Things at the beginning of a relationship are going to be about as euphoric as it gets in any relationship so if things are stressful and there is arguing ect.... its time to move on.

I know thats not what you want to hear but you shouldnt be having ANY serious fights this early into a serious relationship.


Posted by: FlashingEyes

I have heard others claim before the idea that the beginning of the relationship is the most euphoric, stress-free part. But in my experience over many years dating all sorts of women that simply isn't true for me. At the beginning, there are many unknowns, a lack of comfort, a lack of history bonding the relationship together, a lack of understanding. I believe these things result in a lot of stress and my relationships over time are often better, more euphoric, more stress-free as they go forward.


Posted by: postcaptain

Thanks for the reply Rob, but after seeing all the replies to this post, I need to clear some things up. I didn't say she was a stripper. She was NOT a stripper. She worked in a nightclub which featured dancing gypsy girls, fully clothed (in rather ridiculous costumes I might add, as I've seen her photos). Now it seems that some people on this forum cannot even allow for the possibility that any RW working abroad in such a job can be anything but a prostitute. "All RW are prostitutes" is the assertion. Not 5%, not 10%, not 50%, but 100%. So all those tourists who go to all those touristy places in the touristy part of Istanbul, are being entertained, NOT by ordinary girls working as dancers, but by prostitutes who just can't wait to get their dancing costumes off so they can stay up all night allowing strange men to penetrate them in the most intimate manner for a few extra bucks. So why do they even bother dancing in the nightclub if the hooking life is so great? Or, why are there even dancers in gypsy costumes in these clubs if the only real market is for hookers? All RW are or were at one time, hookers. They are by nature, and would never resist that instinctual urge to sell their bodies. So by that logic, my tutor Irina, who has a PhD and works in the lab at Yale University, is also a hooker, and is really tutoring me in the hopes I might pay for some lessons in special verbal skills.

I understand that RW are working the sex industry worldwide, but a little common sense is called for in this regard. Besides, that wasn't even my question. My true, stone cold sober, gut instinct about her (which I am certain about) is that she certainly was and is not a prostitute, but that she was very sensitive about that stigma sometimes directed at her.

Yes, it's true that I didn't like her recounting the story of her married lover, as pertaining to her sense of morality in general. (There does seem to be some kind of relaxed attitude over there about mistresses. Interestingly, according to her, it's we Americans who are empty and immoral, as we will do anything for money, and nothing for love, whereas for them, it's only for love). How serious it was (for both of them) I don't know. It could not have lasted more than six months, I know. However, she didn't lie about why she spoke Turkish. She only used discretion in disclosing too much before she met me. She truthfully told me she had a girlfriend there whom she visited. Technically, not a lie. After we met, she freely and without me asking, disclosed the whole story - actually more than I wanted to know.

The profile thing is a non-issue for me now. It's been explained to me, which I won't recount here. My profile is still active too. It's true there's no way anybody can know everything about someone, we just have to allow ourselves to trust. The fact is that both of us are heavily invested in each other.

You're right about the euphoria. That's a very significant part that I left out of my original post. We have a LOT of euphoria, well in excess of what problems we've had.

It's okay, it doesn't matter what I do or don't want to hear (or even what people think I do or don't want to hear). If I wanted to filter it, I wouldn't have posted. I can tell the wheat from the chaff.

Thanks again for your comments.

Mike


Posted by: FlashingEyes

[I accidently repeated my post, as a result of so many things on this board still appearing in Russian and I pressed the wrong button!]


Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I hope I don't sound trite and unsensitive, but relationships in which things like great age difference, very different nationalities and differences of culture, civilization and language go hand-in-hand are more often failures. A lot of American-Russian marriages fail and are childless because of this. In order to make something like that work there needs to be mutual understanding that bridges these differences.


Posted by: BradIL

Quote:
Originally posted by FlashingEyes :BradIL,I find it reprehensible that you want to talk about other people taking "personal swipes" and how "no insult was meant". You seem reasonably intelligent, and it's hard for me to believe you weren't aware that calling someone "condescending", "sarcastic & disrespectful" is a "personal swipe" and an "insult".


Oh I'm sure you will get over it.


Posted by: FlashingEyes

I would say more likely my opinion of you has been permanently altered.


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
(There does seem to be some kind of relaxed attitude over there about mistresses. Interestingly, according to her, it's we Americans who are empty and immoral, as we will do anything for money, and nothing for love, whereas for them, it's only for love).


Well, I would say two things. First, yes, in general cheating and the like ARE more common in the FSU. In general a woman there is not judged so harshly for dating a married man--I've even read articles in Russian women's magazines ENCOURAGING it as "the best of both worlds". I don't want to say that morality is relative, but there is a different attutude to it there.

As for Americans, doing anything for money--I would say just as many FSU people are just as guilty of this as we are. And this is especially true of FSU women dating married men (who are often their sugar daddies, so to speak). I do NOT mean to imply that this was the case with her--I'm just speaking in general.


Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Well, my opinion, knowing a little bit about both worlds, is that the Russian society is much more pulverized than the American one. So many years of bolshevik "creative" destruction, occupation and exploitation has destroyed most of the fibers that hold a society together in Russia.

I've noticed that it has been like that in Russia for many centuries - the greatest attatchement was always to the head of state, the tsar or vieliki kniaz, and when he dissappeared there was smuta. Bolshevism and sovietism furthered this even more.


Posted by: James Riske

He's doing what most men do when the relationship is over: making excuses for her, pretending that she likes him when she could care less, and ignoring all the warning signs.

But the little part of him that caused him to post all this about her will win out eventually.

Changing your description of what she told you from 'Calypso Dancer' to 'working in a nightclub that featured gypsy girls dancing' is rather odd.

Pretty soon, you'll change 'having an affair with a married man' to being friends with a married couple.


My BS meters are ringing.


Russian America Top. Рейтинг ресурсов Русской Америки. Рейтинг@Mail.ru Russian Network USA



Russian Meeting Place Copyright ©2000 - 2008, www.russianmeetingplace.com and Khahsyar and Lena.