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Genuine ? - Or the Scam that never was ???
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Posted by: nookieUK

Hello ! I am Steve, 43 from the UK. This is my first post here and I would be grateful for your opinions on the following. I should say first of all, that I am a complete beginner in all things Russian but I am learning fast, and possibly, the hard way !!

For several months, I've posted on a UK 'free to post' dating site. I responded to 2 ads - Olya on 19th Sept and Tanya (Tatyana), the following day. Both girls being blonde, attractive and aged 24.
Olya is in Tyumen and Tatyana, in Kurgan. Both girls English is excellent - and both work.

I shall now show the initial replies in case these "ring any alarm bells" with anyone here.

From Olya:
On 19/09/2004 17:35 BST, "goodlookingintelligentgirl" wrote:

Hi,I hope my mail will find you in a good mood. I am extremely pleased by your attention and I hope I will have a chance to get to know you better. I am looking for a serious relationship and I am not playing games here. I am sure you are as serious and genuine as I am. Below is my direct mail address
xxxx_xxxxxxxxx@xxxxx.xxx
I'll be waiting for your letter.Sincerely,Olya ps. By the way, I live in Russia. Is it a problem?

From Tanya:
On 20/09/2004 15:06 BST, "invigoratinglov" wrote:

Hi!!!!!I am very happy to hear from you and hope this message will find you fineI am very interested in getting to know you better and think you are sweet.Feel free to write me and I'll answer all your possible questions,Cheers,xxx_x_xxx_xx@xxxx.xx

Both girls have emailed me regularly to start with, and from about the 2nd emails, talked about the "special feeling inside that we might it work between us" (Olya) and "I am really thinking about us seriously" (Tanya). In the same mails, both girls asked me for my phone number, Olya explaining that she had never phoned abroad before and wasn't even sure how to !!

However, both girls have from the start talked about friends and family (quite specifically, at times) and have always answered my questions and shown real interest in my life here in the UK.
I did receive a telephone call from Olya, but we got cut off after about 5 minutes. Olya said she tried to call back and had a problem sending email that day. I can verify this - I had a problem sending her email too !!! On the phone, Olya sounded quite genuine to me although how do you tell in 5 mins ?
Tanya said she tried to call, but I was out.

I have mentioned to both girls that I would love to visit Russia and this was welcomed !!! Olya even told me about her time off work in a couple of weeks and could I visit then (blissfully unaware of how long these things take to organize !!). Tanya has said I am always welcome too.

Tanya told me she has to visit the Internet Cafe to write to me (I have learned that it does cost some money for this). Neither girl has a home phone, but Olya gave me her friends number and said she would be there as we would arrange it. I was too eager and phoned (the next day) before she got the email, but I spoke to the 'friend' briefly. The phone code does not match the city code but could this be a mobile number ?

Right, I think you've got enough to work on there

but I will now get to the point of this message !!!!!

All communication has stopped (from both girls- within 24 hours of each other) and I've heard nothing now for nearly a month !!!!! And just at the point when I'd asked for their home addresses, to arrange my trip over there. By the way, they use different email providers.

So, to summarize :

It was I who contacted them.
Emails were frequent and interesting/interested in me.
Photos were exchanged and gave no untoward hints.
Words were enthusiastic with terms of endearment (and my name) throughout.
Neither girl had a problem with me visiting them in Russia.
AT NO TIME HAS EITHER GIRL REQUESTED MONEY NOR EVEN MENTIONED MONEY AT ALL

So .... over to you guys. Please help as I am going crazy with this

I have checked scammer listings and photos. I have 'cut & pasted' sections of their replies into Google .I have sent email from a different address (in case of non-delivery).
Without their addresses, there is nothing I can do. (They both have my address.

I will phone Olya's friend I think and see what happens.

Please tell me your views on this situation - is it a common thing to just disappear BEFORE they have your money ???????

Thanks for reading, and sorry for the length of the post

from Steve.

Posted by: RomanticTX

Steve,

According to what I read, there is NO reason to believe that any of those girls were scammers. Actually, the fact that they called YOU, I imagine with their own money.

I think you said or wrote something that scare the heck of both of them!!!

It concerns me your handle NookieUK. What kind of message are you sending my friend?
Do you know the meaning of nookie? Sexual slang which makes reference to sex, the sexual organs, or matters closely related to them.

Posted by: Pin Boy

steve, you're 43..do yourself and these girls a favor and stay away from 23 or 24 year old girls...yes, they are girls and you are a man and the only thing you will have in common with girls 20 years younger is that you physically are able to have sex with a person that age...no disrespect meant, but what are you looking for? if it is a a spouse and a family??? it won't happen with someone who has more in common with a high school student while you have more in common with a 50 year old....think about it and good luck in your search

pin boy

ps...it is VERY uncommon for a woma/girl from the FSU to phone a man overseas...it is very expensive for a woman to make such a call

Posted by: postcaptain

Steve:

I see nothing untoward in the behavior of the girls from your accounting. They seem like typical 24 year olds. Probably out with a girlfriend at the internet cafe and having fun, then occupied with other things for a couple weeks. Wait and see if they respond to your messages.

Generally, more mature women will be more seriously responsive.

Regards,

Mike

Posted by: nookieUK

Thankyou all for your feedback.

RomanticTX,

Posted by: nookieUK

Thankyou all for your feedback.

RomanticTX,

Yes, it is a good sign that they were prepared to telephone me. I hope they will again.

Their latest emails were just as enthusiastic as before, and my quite brief replies were simply asking for home addresses and local map details .... not that scary !!

As for your final point, I have sent you a 'pm', but would just like to add the following...
I am sorry if it has caused any offence, none was intended.
To me, it is also a pet name for one of my cars (a corruption of the license plate no.) NOT for any reason you may be thinking !!
And of course in the UK, we've had Nookie Bear entertaining us for almost 30 years, courtesy of ventriloquist Roger De Courcey.

Pin Boy,

I am reassured by your point about a Russian girl phoning me.

On the age thing, I have to disagree with you.
Just as I do not know these girls, then you do not know me - I have nothing in common with 50-year olds and have always related well to younger people.
On the UK site, I have had girls of 20 contact me (too young, I agree) right up to a woman aged 50. I am not automatically out to find a young "dolly-bird".
For reference, Tanya is looking for a partner aged 31 to 46 and Olya would like someone aged between 29 and 53. In fact Olya actually stated once that she was concerned that she was TOO OLD for me - I am not joking !!!
I am more than happy that these girls and I have similar interests and life goals and do not see any reason to deny myself or them a chance of happiness together. To answer your question, I am looking for a life partner and want children and so do they.

postcaptain (Mike),

They are indeed typical 24 yr olds. They spend time with their friends at the park and visit the movies every week. It it just such a sudden change from such regular contact (every 2 to 4 days) to absolutely nothing for 4 weeks.

Thanks again for your comments folks.

Posted by: sidney

I don't see an age difference problem. My wife seems to think that perhaps they found someone else. They must have been commited to call you. I have had few phone calls from the FSU because it is a big expense for most ladies. I woulds continue to write and if you get no where begin your seach again. Good luck
Sid

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by Pin Boy
steve, you're 43..do yourself and these girls a favor and stay away from 23 or 24 year old girls...yes, they are girls and you are a man and the only thing you will have in common with girls 20 years younger is that you physically are able to have sex with a person that age...no disrespect meant, but what are you looking for? if it is a a spouse and a family??? it won't happen with someone who has more in common with a high school student while you have more in common with a 50 year old....think about it and good luck in your search

pin boy

ps...it is VERY uncommon for a woma/girl from the FSU to phone a man overseas...it is very expensive for a woman to make such a call

boy do I disagree here

You said "the only thing you will have in common with girls 20 years younger is that you physically are able to have sex with a person that age." What if the girl has a child the same age as your children? I agree that if a man is single has grown children or no children and there is that kind of an age gap then, you do have very little in common.

I am 46 have a 6,8 and 9 year old children. A woman 50 is likely to have children who are anywhere from 20-30 years old.... I have NOTHING in common with someone at that stage of life. Yet chronologically I am only a scant 4 years from 50 myself. Where you are at in life is not predominately determined by your chronologically span of life. Just as I would have little in common with a 24 year old woman who has never been married and has no children.... we are at 2 radically different places in life.

If Steve doesnt have kids and the 2 ladies he is writing dont have them then your thesis has some merit. If on the other hand, his situation is as mine is.... then I totally disagree with your positition.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

nookieUK,

You requested directly that we tell you if anything you wrote about these girls "ring[s] any alarm bells."

Here is what MIGHT ring alarm bells IMHO:

1) "posted on a UK 'free to post' dating site" - you should be aware that there a much higher percentage of scammers on these free sites than you will find through the good agencies - not an alarm in and of itself but worth noting.

2) "and from about the 2nd emails, talked about the 'special feeling inside that we might it work between us' (Olya) and 'I am really thinking about us seriously' (Tanya)." - most Russian people believe it is bad luck to say something good will happen; then it might not happen; they are loathe to make positive predictions at all, and especially so early after meeting someone; more typical for a sincere Russian would be to hint at things, to say she looks forward to your next letter, for instance, NOT that you are "sweet" and shes has a "special feeling" things will work out.

3) "In the same mails, both girls asked me for my phone number" - this is VERY rare, quite forward for a typical Russian woman, too expensive for a typical Russian woman, improbable that it would happen in the second e-mail from the only two women you are writing unless they are following a scammer script, and may be a twist by sophisticated scammers against the old advise we pass out against scammers that you should speak to her on the phone; done this way, SHE controls the call - you don't know where she calls from, or even who is really calling, and the call can be conveniently set up to fit her schedule of 5 minutes (to limit expenses); then you feel that she is not a scammer because you have spoken to "her". Maybe "Tanya" never called because she would have had the same voice as "Olya".

4) "The phone code does not match the city code but could this be a mobile number ?" - definitely alarm bells here; generally when using a friend's phone, a landline is used, because there are extra charges to the friend if an International call comes to the friend's cellphone.

5) "All communication has stopped (from both girls- within 24 hours of each other)" - again the odds of this happening are long and it increases the possibility that you may have been dealing with 1 sophisticated scammer operating both accounts. Sometimes these scammers are caught and thrown in jail - that would stop communication.

6) "Words were enthusiastic with terms of endearment (and my name) throughout." - most Russian women will not use terms of endearment to someone they haven't met; most scammers, however, will; repeating your name over and over is also a sign of a scammer; studies have shown this is an effective technique when writing to a person to get the person to have a positive reaction to the writer, but few people actually write this way.

Now I've fulfilled your request. Certainly nothing here is concrete, but there are definitely things that would make me pause.

Posted by: sidney

Quote:

boy do I disagree here You said "the only thing you will have in common with girls 20 years younger is that you physically are able to have sex with a person that age." What if the girl has a child the same age as your children? I agree that if a man is single has grown children or no children and there is that kind of an age gap then, you do have very little in common.

I would have to disagree with much of this. I feel age is less of a common bond then personality. Irregardless of him having children, should he wish to have another child/children it would be a better match with someone younger then 30 or 35. The rate of potential birthing problems does increase with age especially after 30. I think it depends what is important for both partners. Some men look for ladies that have family and feel they can adapt easier together. One example would be their learning english together among other things. There are some men that don't want children and generally look for women in their 40,s. I was looking for someone that was not married or had children only because I had prior problems with this and family was important to me. I looked at some ladies in the 30 to 40 age group but didn't seem to connect. I don't know if I was fortunate or unfortunate but it took me longer then some to find my other half. I do feel that it was worth the extra time to make certain it would work. Just because something does or doesn't work for you doesn't mean it will not work for the next person. I think you should list the important qualities you seek or what is a turn offf for you. Family was at the top of my list. I wanted someone to raise our children with. I wanted someone who wasn't married but this wasn't very important. I didn't want someone with extra baggage from prior relationships but would consider someone that could appreciate a good relationship after going thru a bad. Honesty was also tops on the list. Fortunately my wife is honest to a fault. Education wasn't too important to me but my wife also has an engineering degree so this was a plus. I wanted someone that cared about good health, in other words a nonsmoker, drinker. Tatoos and piercing are a turnoff to me. I live rural so I needed someone that was willing to live this lifestyle. I met some women that flat out told they couldn't live where I do. Everyone list can be different but what is important is that your personallities click and that the important qualities for you are the same for her. I feel that with perseverance most everyone can find their match.
Sid

Posted by: James Riske

Well...I agree with everything that Flashing Eyes has said.

I think there is a high probability that they are scammers and would eventually end up asking you for money. They are way too young for you and that certainly increases the likelihood of you being scammed. And if you end up marrying one of them, I'm sure she'll end up divorcing you, taking half of what you own, after a couple years of dancing at discos and going out with younger guys while you stay at home, dead tired from working all day to pay the bills.

The age difference is a problem and you are simply ignoring it. You are not younger than your years and she is not a mature 23 year old. You're being foolish to think that you can get along with such an immature young girl for a long term relationship.

And it's silly of you to become attached to women over emails and phone calls, 99% of the time, it is a waste of time.

You need to get on a plane and go to a dating agency there and meet prescreened women there in person, your own age, or you're heading for disaster and wasting your time and money.

Posted by: Clarita

nookieUK

Girls could just find guys more close to their age. Why didnt you write to women in their 40th? 40-45 years old?

This is a road to scam paranoiya... Write to girls half younger and wait from them "deep and clean love"...

Posted by: Clarita

Quote:

[i]
If Steve doesnt have kids and the 2 ladies he is writing dont have them then your thesis has some merit. If on the other hand, his situation is as mine is.... then I totally disagree with your positition. [/B]

Do you mean it is honest having 3 kids yourself look for young girl without kids???

Posted by: Clarita

Why not you write to local college girls same age? They would not be scammer for sure.

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by Clarita
Do you mean it is honest having 3 kids yourself look for young girl without kids???

How did you come to that conclusion????? My whole point was and is that I dont see an issue with marrying someone 20 years younger than you if you BOTH have children the same age.

In my case I am 46 my GF is 24. Normally that would be a big problem... I have 3 boys ranging from 6-9 years of age. She has a 6 year old daughter. She is dealing with the same issues in raising a child as I am. She is exactly at the same stage of life "raising young children" as I. Because of this, the day to day life issues we both face are very much the same. The only major difference between us is that I have 20 more years of life experience.

Posted by: nookieUK

sidney,

Thankyou for your comments, you wife could well be right.
And I'm glad you are with me on the 'age thing'.
I have tried to make it clear that I am not especially after someone that young (I am currently in touch with 7 ladies, most of whom are between 35 and 45) but I would also not exclude someone of that age (23 up). It is who you connect with, on various levels, that counts.

FlashingEyes,

You make some good points, and I am grateful for you sharing them.

James Riske,

Quote:

I think there is a high probability that they are scammers and would eventually end up asking you for money

You may well be right but if that is the case, then I can tell you for certain that this scammer has invested an awful lot of care and attention to detail in all sorts of ways and from what I have read, this is not generally how they work.

Quote:

They are way too young for you

I do not agree

Quote:

The age difference is a problem and you are simply ignoring it

There is no problem for me so there is nothing to ignore

Quote:

You are not younger than your years and she is not a mature 23 year old. You're being foolish to think that you can get along with such an immature young girl for a long term relationship.

With respect, you do not know either these girls or myself and so are not qualified to comment in this way.

Quote:

And it's silly of you to become attached to women over emails and phone calls, 99% of the time, it is a waste of time.

Perhaps Khashyar could put this as a "sticky" at the head of each forum page ?

You do sound very bitter and I wonder if you had a bad experience maybe ?

Clarita,

Thanks for your input, but I think my views on the age issue are clear enough.

RobOhioGuy,

Quote:

She is exactly at the same stage of life "raising young children" as I.

If I was to have had a child/children with one of these girls as my partner, then surely our situation would then be similar.

And finally, I just want to add that I have had experience of a typical scam. Contacted 'out of the blue', very poor English, money mentioned (low wage), and 'dodgy' photos - so I DO have something to compare against.

I still say it 's
the greatest scam there never was !!!

Posted by: rob_we

nookieUk
Hi. Im the scammer defender here so never mind when I agree with you.

I actually can´t see any reason why this gilrs could be scammers, because as you said they even called YOU!
Maybe it was two girls who made fun with you, thats ONE possibility to me. I would consider this as a kids thing, no scam as I would understand it. Also I agree with you that age is not everything. I think all this "list" thinking is useless anyway. I think meeting someone on the web, (getting an impression, here I strongly disagree with James is NOT a waste of time) then meeting her (to find out about real chemistry, here I agree with James) are the two things that are important. Anything else is not. Of course, and there Clarita has a very point, IF you have a list that says, "I want a woman who desperately loves me", and look for 20 year old chicks its a little strange or even can get ridiculous, but on the other hand if you just find someone you fall for, DESPITE the fact and KNOWING she´s so young, and both of you are responsible enough to know and do what is necessary to hold her, then your chances are not worse then any other international couple has... So my advice, don´t do lists, go find whats out there for you

Posted by: parasionok

Nookie,

if those two girls posted on a local Uk dating site, their English must be good. Those who do not have internet at home or speak not very good english, go to agencies like bride.ru, scammers included.

I think either they lost interest or they found someone else, or they were never serious. Maybe they just practiced the language or maybe they got sick or something or went on a long vacation, you never know.

I cannot even tell you how many guys stop writing just after a couple of letters. Or write and write and nothing ever happens. So nothing unusual happened to you and if your girls write back, I am sure they will come up with some explanation, and you will be able to figure out whether you want to continue with your correspondence or not...

I think age difference doesn't matter and do not listen to those who tell you it does... I dated guys who were 20 years older than me, and those who were some years younger. Who cares.... If you feel like this is the right person for you, go for it and do not listen to anyone but only to your heart.

As for the opinion that

"most Russian people believe it is bad luck to say something good will happen; then it might not happen; they are loathe to make positive predictions at all, and especially so early after meeting someone; more typical for a sincere Russian would be to hint at things, to say she looks forward to your next letter, for instance, NOT that you are "sweet" and shes has a "special feeling" things will work out."

It is NOT TRUE. I am Russian and I have never heard of the above mentioned concept before (but nice theory, another urban legend, yeah Russians never say Candy-man (5 times) in front of a mirror, I KNOW). It depends on a person, but to say that all russian people are so negative and only hint and never tell you what they feel is wrong.. I told my finacee that I loved him 10 days after our first meeting. Damn, I felt like telling him that because I really felt it and still do and stronger every day for more than a year.... Makes sense? have you ever had this feeling you want to climb up the highest mountain and cry out loud about your feelings? Well, the russians feel that as well.

Good luck to you

Posted by: nookieUK

rob_we,
Thanks for your comments, and support !!

parasionok,
Yes, the girls' English was excellent. Olya teaches English and German and had she not said she was Russian, I would not have known. Tanya, although still very good had occasional problems with word order, but was perfectly understandable.

Quote:

I think either they lost interest or they found someone else, or they were never serious

I think it would be interesting to share with you, some words taken from the last mails . . . .
(These are selected sentences from Olya's letter placed together)
"So, I actually will have my vacation in about two or three weeks, I think. Perhaps, you can come over? What do you think? That would be a nice opportunity for us to meet each other.
As for cooking, I love that and actually I do food shopping once a week cause I do not have a lot of time for shopping every day. I would love to cook for you. What do you like to eat?
Tell me about your country. I have never been abroad and that would be great to know as to what kind of life you have over there and please send me more pics. I promise I will do the same in return."
(The following is takenunedited and entirely as one piece from Tanya's final letter)
"Honey, I promise to call you soon.
I fell that we are are closer and closer to each other. I feel that I
found YOU! and that is great. I even decided to improve my English
just for you. I bought some films without translation, began reading a
book by Stephen King. I have never read his works before, but people
say he is a masterpiece himself. You changed me, you change my
outlook. I want to thank you for this. You are so wonderful. Why
didn't I meet you earlier? You are so kind to me. I have never known
that a man could treat me so gently. Thank you again. I am so glad you
are in my heart, in my soul, in my mind. You really deserve it. I am
sure. We were talking about you with my mom and dad. They are happy
for me and for you too."

You can see why I should feel flattered by these emails, but does this honestly sound like a scammer, or even someone about to lose interest ? I'd love to know how they write when they are serious

Posted by: rob_we

nookieUK
Mhmmmmmmmmmm. That sounds nice but the problem is that they stopped writing. I have an idea that would MAYBE explain why both of them stopped writing at the same time....
Maybe they checked you? Maybe those girls knew each other?
And they wanted to find out if you were serious! As far as I understood you did not tell any of them that you were talking to another girl did you? So maybe they just thought you try to clear some girls for a shag.... You know a lot guys do it like this, and girls in russia, and those two seem to be not stupid, know that of course....

So you fell in the male scammer pit maybe.....
That could explain it... I don´t know the whole conversation so I do not know what you wrote to both of them... But I could think of this possibility .... The girls do this to protect themselves sometimes... even mine did once

Posted by: parasionok

Nookie,

I don't know why they would stop writing you really. Doesn't make any sense. Again, why would Tanya want to improve her English (and why to buy more expensive King books when she could get some cheap Pinguin classics?) That sounds very strange to me.

Anyway, if Tanya or the other girl would have been very interested and sincere in persueing the relationship with you, they would have not stopped writing. Tanya said that she told her parents about you.. That's a very important step for any Russian or Western or Zimbabwian girl: to tell her parents about someone who she is interested in. I don't report to my mom about everything that is going on in my life, but only about some very important things that are happening to me. If I decide to tell my parents that I am interested in a guy, I would think twice before doing so. You know how parents are: they will nag you to death with the questions about when they might expect their grandchildren

Anyway, you see, you were not scammed. They never asked for money, and if they write to you, they might give you some explanation... I still doubt they ever will....

As I told you before, there are guys out there (speaking perfect English btw) who are professional writers. Maybe someone will give them a Nobel price for literature one day... I am sure there are girls like that out there as well.... just playing. We are not inventing a bicycle here, are we?

My ex was promising me the everlasting love for 2 years..... from time to time... well, I waited and waited, fought and fought... but then, I went to a dating site and found the one and only guy I had been always looking for... I also found some I was not particularly looking for either

So move on... go to local dating sites, use ICQ, go to russian dating sites, go everywhere.... you will find her. Maybe she lives in Manchester

, maybe in Moscow, maybe in Siberia

, maybe in Danmark... how would you know? Just do not believe it is not possible for a russian woman to tell you about her feelings in letters. Russian or American or Zimbabwian women are women after all and they CAN fall in love with you and they will. Once they are in love with you, you will know.... and they won't stop writing unless they have a very good reason

Posted by: nookieUK

That's interesting rob_we, although it had crossed my mind before. I estimated that Kurgan would be 100-120 miles from Tyumen - anyone know or can find out please ?

After checking back, I see that in my second email to Olya, I did say that I was "in touch by email with several other young ladies".
I do not appear to have said same to Tanya for some reason. I read elsewhere that to mention other girls in any way is a big no-no.
I was always careful to write to each girl individually - no mass-mailing here

so if any 'cross-referencing' was going on between them, I should have passed !!

Since their letters stopped, I have emailed several times and in these cases the mails were identical.

My intentions were to visit each girl (separately) for a 'holiday' and to see how we got on. I would then have been in a situation to make a decision.

parasionok, yes I have moved on, in as much as I am writing to others - but I will always be confused about this situation as you would be if you had the entire emails and photos

Again, thanks for your input.

Posted by: rob_we

nookieUK
hey honestly you should be honest. I mean its a big nono for some people because they think by cheating they increase their chances... Of course you do not get a total "devoted" girl by telling her "Im not sure".... But I think its fair.
Either we guys tell the girls, listen, I want to meet someone else and I talk to her as I do to you, Im not sure (truth) and you can do so as well, or we have to decide before and focus on one girl with the risk that theres no chemistry when we meet....

But again the girls have it too. So I think ts fair to do so

Good luck on the next quest, and if you are unsure tell them... Its fair and they appreciate this more than a "lie" or something they interprete as one...

Posted by: parasionok

nookie,

good luck to you really...

go to russian antidate forum, go to the list of "lost guys" and you see how many guys just abandon thier battlefields to move to another front....

Why would you want anyone who reads Steven King to improve her English anyway? I know, I know I deserve

big time