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The Russian Meeting Place: A place to meet people and talk about all things Russian...
International Discussions about Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Travel, Music, Russian News, Ukrainian culture, Belarusian Dating, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kiev and other intelligent topics about life in the former Soviet Union. |
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[about the Dalai Lama and world problems]... ) . I think Rob started the discussion about Micheal Moore not to upset people but to exchage opinions about what people think about the context of the movie (not about its maker). This theme is very close to Russia and the russian documentory by Nevzorov in Chechnia. Unfortunately Nevzorov now is an outcast exactly because he tried to show the truth or what he thoght to be true... He is one of the most hated people in Russia, mostly like Mr. Moore in America. And you know why? Becasue he has his opinion that contradicts to the opinion of the state. Nevzorov has a more unfortunate fate than Mr. Moore though.... Moore at least can go public without being a major traitor and enemy of the state accusations..... Nevzorov could not...People have different opinions about what their governments do, what their religious leaders are doing (including Lama or some other woman who was so famous in russian but unfortunately i dont remember her name). It is more about pacifism rather than criticism... It is more about protecting our families (and we might have very controversial views on how we do it) rather than looking into facts that had been compiled and presented to us by no doubt a genious journalist....
On september first 1985 Ernst Zimmermann leading brain and chief of MTU was killed by terrorists (RAF).
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Originally posted by RomanticTX Para, The food for oil scandal is more than the typical companies doing dirty business. This is a scandal by which Sadam bought favors from countries, using a glitch of the flawed UN (as Rob correctly states). We in the US are shocked as the reasons not to go to war from some of our traditional "allies" have nothing to do with principle but Interest. You see, before I respected those countries opostion to war, as I believed it was based on principles. Now, I am shocked and disgusted! |
| The pace of disclosures of the ties of Saddam, his sons, or his regime with other terrorist groups, negotiating for WMD/missile programs, possessing elements of WMD, was astonishing. It seemed like Saddam had been fooling the world for more than 10 years with his assurances & complaints. by the time British troops began unearthing a mass grave of more than 100,000 iraqis that was enough to convince me the coalition was right in invading in the first place. Perhaps too late! |
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Originally posted by rob_we Romantic TX one other thing. I think to have critical allies is not too bad ... See germans were accused (correctly to my opinion) that they made the first world war possible by granting to be a war ally to austria hungaria(Emser Depesche). They even said, as a matter of fact (also quite correct) that germany was guilty about the war. So as a german nation that should have learned from the past, disagreeing in a offensive war that an ally would want to start,is to my opinion the right and only way to go. I totally supported this, despite the fact, as you know, that i can not see any justification for any war. It creates only pain and sorrow for anybody involved! |
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Originally posted by BradIL lolomarseille quote: AAAAAH unbelievable people still thinking that earth it's flat let's go briefly: Food for oil was made by american policy against Iraq first final user of this Iraqi oil was... USA ( strange but true!) The USA will fail to transform the world in a big latin america; you saw the first step, only as G W Bush said in june; "USA don't want to be loved, but feared" okay for you "allies" has the sense of the original roman republic? hey! :-)) btw, thinking that the opposition to war and to US policy was made by a few millions tons of oil is just pityful. L. No lolo--- Food for Oil was not "against" Iraq, but to "help" Iraq to allow Saddam to sell oil for food, medicine & other humanitarian purposes. America did not want to see babies starving for lack of the formula they needed. France was no help here, perhaps scheming how they could get bribes from the program as is already apparent. Iraqi oil was shipped under UN approval, so ANY oil company that purchased Iraqi oil had reason to expect that the shipments were legitimate. I hope you'll join your fellow French in trying to find out if the energy company with links to President Jacques Chirac ended up getting bribe money. In fact, Chirac is no stranger to bribery cases is he? In the meantime, I'm sure you'll have your hands full trying to placate the Muslim population in your country that does not speak French & insists on demonstrating its affection for their religion in public institutions. The French actively discourage other religious groups from such actions. It will be interesting to see how your republic deals with it. perhaps better than your power sharing plan with the Ivory Coast, right? |
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Originally posted by rob_we lollo you´re right. Emser depeche was indeed the 1870 war and I mixed it up. Shame on me So what i meant was the carte blanche ( July 5th 1914) that Willhelm II gave to Austria-Hungaria to start the war in serbia. Germany wanted to attack Russia (3 weeks later August 1st 1914) , and used this conflict, (Austria_Hungaria <->Serbia) to start this attack... This carte blanche was one of the major reasons, plus the intention to attack russia... So I´m afraid germany HAD a major part of the guilt of the war... |
. Whatever weight the guilt had at that certain time, I think any ally should just be responsible enough to reconsider actions, that are not part of a treaty, or even if, if the ally is not considering certain fundamental things that are important to the ally....
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Originally posted by rob_we lollo, ok let´s bring it to a compromise in this way, that at least a carte blanche is not really good to give. Aliied war- actions should always be conditional to certain facts, not only to the ally. That was my original point . Whatever weight the guilt had at that certain time, I think any ally should just be responsible enough to reconsider actions, that are not part of a treaty, or even if, if the ally is not considering certain fundamental things that are important to the ally....
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Originally posted by rob_we lollo definitely
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and give you so many holidays, that I feel envious every time you mention you go to the Alps 
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Originally posted by lolomarseille more seriously for checking the votes, you have 2 solutions: a law, a state or , like americans, trusting the honesty of local authorities |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille Rob, come on, don't forget where we are for our american friends, be clear that this not a question of guilty or innocent but about world war, european suicide, and that we both (it seems) look at this past with horror but amazing feelings, coz we don't belong no more to this world of patriotism, axis of evil, and other pityfull thinkings that shows that all civilisations are not on the same level ooh i'd better stop here hi hi L |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille they do not control the ballot process they trust local authorities i thought these ways were doomed in the sixties, by supreme court, but in fact not |
| is stained with blood of innocent Iraqi people who died of starvation and of health problems. |
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Originally posted by RomanticTX Para, My point above is that there is such hypocrisy from those countries (namely France) who are against the war because they didn’t want to “shoot” innocent people but then they take money that was supposed to feed and heal those people. There will be wars in this world as long as there are people in this world. Now is terror and WMD’s, then were cakes (in the case of France vs Mexico). Now is the US, later who knows? |
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Originally posted by parasionok Do we really want to talk here how many innocent people died because of "friendly fire" in Iraq? Both Americans and the Iraqies? Do you really think the Americans won the war on terror? What did stop them or win? What did Putin do to stop terror attackes in Moscow? I am telling you guys, now it is going to be quiet in Chechnia and in Moscow, but in two years we will see some more explosions... to keep Putin there so some other people can build more and more houses in Nice, or in Barcelona or maybe Apple Valley???... So who is next? North Korea? They DO have weapons of mass destruction... |
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Originally posted by rob_we lollo cmon we germans always trusted the government. In east germany we had 98% for SED. Who else in the world loved their government so much. So you see germans loove their guys )))
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Originally posted by BradIL Well lolo... when the muslims in France begin rioting to force your schools to permit their daughters to wear veils into French classrooms... I'm sure you'll be able to handle it. Just get ready for a tax increase & a loss of some of your benefits to start funding special programs for the muslim population there. Patriotism a "pityfull thinking"? Stand up for the French then. How do you reconcile French citizens taking bribes from the UN Oil for Food while the Iraqi people (especially the babies that were held up to us over the last 10 years) were suffering so greatly? Perhaps France can show us how it is done. Send your troops to Iraq, your officials. Perhaps they can broker a deal like France did with the Ivory Coast, yes? |
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Originally posted by BradIL Well lolo, we got all 3 of those in here. |
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Originally posted by parasionok Brad, show me a real fair election... Last election you had was just hilarious...It was totally fake. Nobody knew who actually won, think about about 50% of your country who felt cheated. Like our Russian election or Ukrainian election now.... Gimmy a break, we claim to be democracies but we do not choose our presidents. I or you cannot influence the course of history. My mom who is a uni professor always votes for someone who is a democrate but cannot under any condition wins... I do not vote at all, because I know as long as I hold my russian passport whatever I do wont change anything... We should all read Marx, any course of political events can ba changed only by revolution. Revolution is possible only when the high class cannot survive the present codition and the lower class cannot live like they live anymore... i am not citating, I am giving my understanding of it. I am sure some will claim I have a reading comprehension problem but thats how we can influence the course of history. Either we rebel and consiquently become outsiders or we bow in front of someone whose morals we just despise but we compromise because we do not want our kids to be raised orphans. That much of your freedom. |
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Originally posted by BradIL Actually lolo, its done by election judges from the established political parties. And where the party's have a full slate of judges--- the elections are very fair. Where 1 party has an advantage, there are problems. In fact ballot boxes can be stuffed in France, can't they? |
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Originally posted by parasionok [B]Brad, show me a real fair election... Last election you had was just hilarious...It was totally fake. Nobody knew who actually won, think about about 50% of your country who felt cheated. Like our Russian election or Ukrainian election now.... Gimmy a break, we claim to be democracies but we do not choose our presidents. I or you cannot influence the course of history. |
| We should all read Marx, any course of political events can ba changed only by revolution. Revolution is possible only when the high class cannot survive the present codition and the lower class cannot live like they live anymore... Either we rebel and consiquently become outsiders or we bow in front of someone whose morals we just despise but we compromise because we do not want our kids to be raised orphans. That much of your freedom. |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille Para, it's not marx, it's tocqueville in this case, and not exactly that L |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille yes, but i wasn't enough clear: i was surprised by your problems in florida; your ballot system works under thousands of local rules, under local authorities, and more than law and state, the main principle seems to be honesty, faith in democracy, okay? it's good if the people are all good if you're pessimist like me, if you don't think that trust in mankind kindness is a basis for a policy, you will be suprised by american system, wich is very specific but the ways to a fair ballot are numerous.. |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille if you're pessimist like me, if you don't think that trust in mankind kindness is a basis for a policy, you will be suprised by american system, wich is very specific but the ways to a fair ballot are numerous.. [/B] |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille Welcome! four more years! yeah! things gonna be clear:-)) RomanticTX, think: we're supposed to be on same side(and in kosovo we were for example) but we do not understand each other: if you're unable to understand a frenchman, how could you deal with an indian, an arab, even a japanese? so ask yourself.. and please read before writing i tried to explain to you that money was not the problem: the problem is worse L for africa, again, it worth a forum |
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Originally posted by BradIL No lolo, Para is accurate on this one. She is referring to Marx, I'm aware of the point she tries to make. In fact Marx did comment substanially on voting in one of his essays (I read it long ago) but I've forgotten which one. I don't believe it is in The Communist Manifesto. |
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Originally posted by BradIL Lolo--- its that kind of pessimism that will forever leave you unsatisfied with any decision of the voters, or action of a government. How did the French become so awash in pessimism? STOP IT! France must adopt an attitude of optimism in its culture. How can you expect to meet the challenges of the future without optimism? The local rules for ballot issues is a strength in the US. Actually they are very similar from state to state, but they do differ in the process of confronting problems. The rules contain a lot of common sense, they are not difficult to understand, but I think the main difference is the process used to solve the problems that occur in elections. For instance, the various committees that are used to consider problems, who appoints the members, the methods used to ensure that opposing viewpoints are guaranteed in its composition. This process is not very difficult to understand, unless of course, you read our sensationalist media/reporters who find suspect behavior in the most benign of acts. |
anyway, this election was clear|
Originally posted by RomanticTX Lolo, I got a PM from you saying that you were waiting for a response. But, where is the answer to my questions? How do you feel about your politicians stuffing their pockets with money that was supposed to be for food? Maybe in Africa a lot of people are also dying from hunger or diseases. But it is not because my countrymen enriched themselves! Do you know what country is the one who gives the most to Charity? We are begining to understand the Frenchman, but what we are finding is not very nice! And do not worry, last time I checked, Japan and India were in good standing with the US. We have problems with the Arabs, but who doesn't? Do you guys understand them in France? Well, maybe since you had some Colonies and drained some of the riches of the arab and african countries for so many years, you know about being friends with them. |
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Originally posted by RomanticTX Lolo, That money from the scandal may not be a big issue of you, but believe me, It was a big issue for those in need! I would love to stay and refute your ideas, but I am on my way to a well deserved vacations in Victoria BC, Canada! No time for your nonsense! Canada, Oh Canada! Wait for me! |
)that its woth it (that 1 Mio. Iraqi children died).| Despite the Clinton Administration's attempts to lay claim to the mantle of global leadership in the effort to ban antipersonnel landmines, the United States has refused to ban—or even formally suspend—the production of antipersonnel mines. From 1985 through 1996, the U.S. produced more than four million new antipersonnel mines. |
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