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Will Russia make homosexuality a crime? (anti-gay laws being considered?)
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Posted by: Khashyar

"Criminal responsibility for homosexual activities likely to be introduced in Russia"

Vladimir Zhirinovsky believes that death penalty would be the most appropriate punishment

Deputies of the Russian parliament are pending a possibility to introduce criminal responsibility for homosexual activities. The law of Uganda, however, stipulates such responsibility already - adequate articles of the law are used in Uganda's legal procedures.

A radio station in Uganda has been recently charged with propagandizing pederasty. Penalties were applied after the radio station broadcast an interview with a group of people of the unconventional sexual orientation. Journalists will have to pay a $1000 fine (which is quite a lot for this African country) for their liberties and publicly apologize to listeners for the moral damage.

A high-ranking official from Uganda's television and radio administration stated that the program aired by the radio station in August contradicted to the morality and laws of the country. Uganda's Minister for Information Nsaba Buturo supported the decision that had been made against the station. According to the minister, Ugandians must protect the God's morality. A statement from Uganda's television and radio administration ran that the radio station had violated the law about electronic mass media. The law bans broadcasting the information, which undermines moral principles of the society.

The homosexual individuals, who managed to express their opinion in the country, where homosexual love is legally banned, were luckier than the radio station. Minister Nsaba stated that they would not be either fined or persecuted. The authorities, the minister added, will do their best to prevent such incidents in the future, not to let homosexual activists propagandize their views in Uganda.

A similar situation is likely to occur in Russia, if State Duma deputies approve adequate amendments to the law. The last statement on the "homosexual matter" was released from the leader of the Liberal and Democratic Party of Russia, Vladimir Zhirinovsky. The politician urged the deputies to introduce death penalty for homosexual activities. Zhirinovsky suggested the idea at the Duma during a discussion pertaining to the introduction of criminal responsibility for pederasty. Vladimir Zhirinovsky disagreed with a group of deputies and stated that homosexuality was one of the most dangerous crimes. According to the LDPR leader, all homosexuals should be executed. "We can put an end to this perversion, this influence of the Western civilization," said he.

pravda.ru
10/05/2004
(Translated by: Dmitry Sudakov)

Posted by: Jill

The death penalty???? Zhirinovsky really makes me laugh

Did you see him on TV last new years eve? He performed with Отпетые Мошенники dressed up as Batman. Really, really funny

But I can't imagine that anyone takes him very seriously anymore.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

My information from gay Russian websites paints a very positive picture of the Russian authorities with some exceptions.

The gay militants are getting hammered but in the background the Duma has requested copies of all European Union nation's laws permitting same-sex unions.

The opportunity for Russia to make incredible gains concerning human rights, and allowing such unions before the USA would be a huge PR win for them and they know it.

Our contributions to society greatly outweighs the preceived negatives if our creative energies are free to grow. We act our worse when oppressed and like minds multiply rapidly!

Furthermore there is no evidence that the gay population will increase by allowing our diversity to co-exist. My personal experience is that our numbers increase when we are oppressed by the laws and government.

As the EU countries have discovered, allowing same sex unions has not destroyed the family or marriage; on the contrary it adds another pilliar to the social foundation making society stronger for everyone.
Long term commitment is good for all to build social growth.

Russian leaders are not blinded by religious mis-information.
They are social engineers and know what they are doing.

I forsee many western gays and their money will soon pour into Russia.
'Dispite the weather' it isn't as cold as it has become in "Amerika".

Posted by: Colochef

I have never understood the right wing argument that same sex marriage will undermine the institution. With the divorce rate in the US over 50% it sounds like it's already in trouble

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Marriage for any orientation is not easy to maintain.

50% isn't so bad considering the things that can shipwreck a relationship over time-no matter how many toes you have!

Zhirinovsky is the founder and the leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of ...

Liberal Democratic Party? duh!

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

As a Libertarian I fail to see how government ever got the right to define and "sanctify" marriage in this country in the first place. I don't see anything in the constitution giving them this power. The 1st amendment tells government to stay the hell out of the religion business.

And frankly, I fail to see why Christians want government to have this right. Shouldn't their own church have the right to decide these issues?

If the Baptists don't want to marry homosexuals (or recognize such marriages) then they shouldn't be forced to do this when and if the law changes. However, why prevent another church or authority from sanctioning such a marriage?

When this country was founded (and for a thousand years prior to this in Europe) two people went before a minister, a priest, a rabbi, a judge, a mayor - just about anyone in authority, and got married. In remote areas they simply stood up in front of their friends and neighbors and declared themselves married. All of this was binding in all the same moral and legal fashion as todays state sanctified weddings.

At some point governments began to usurp this right and now they define who, how, where, when...

You know, everyone here is going through this same thing - or will if they decide to marry a foreign man or woman. Have you asked yourself why we should have to petition government for permission to marry our FSU love? Does anyone else see how ridiculous it is for some bureaucrat to decide who we can marry?
We're US citizens - we should be able to marry a Russian, a Venezualan or a Venusian and bring them home without government throwing up a roadblock.

Are we not men?

oh, and women...

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

We are now infacto a one party country

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

Posted by: clever1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith In Kodiak

At some point governments began to usurp this right and now they define who, how, where, when...

Are we not men?

oh, and women...

Keith it began when Governments saw that there was money to made out of it.

John

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

No, it began when people got weak and decided they'd rather let government run their lives.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

For black people to have the right to marry or have civil unions.
I wonder......

Posted by: Keith In Kodiak

Bob, I think this is just being approached backasswards. Like a lot of civil rights issues, it would seem easier to fight it as a constitutional issue - ie: "Where in the Constitution does it say government can sanctify marriage?"
Instead of; "We want government to sanctify marriage and now we want to make this power broader and include other groups."

Do you follow me? Clearly, this power is not one addressed in the Constitution. Any power not specifically given to government is, well, read the tenth amendment (the Capstone) to the bill of rights: Amendment 10. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

So, if some local minister or justice of the peace wants to marry someone it is legally binding since the United States (the federal government) has not been awarded this power by the Constitution. It is a right of the states and/or the people - not the feds!

Unfortunately, liberals (who are the ones fighting this battle) always want government to have more power and the people to have fewer rights. They can't see the mistake they are making. Every power given government is a right lost by the people.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

I don't hold much faith is the problem getting solved in my lifetime in America.
Russia will permit civil unions decades before we ever will.

Now 40 states have passed laws against same sex unions. This is a required majority for a constitutional ammendent.

This is now infacto a one party under a "conservative-fundamental" god nation.

Posted by: novotul

In Anglo(American) jurisprudence, it began (the State got involved in marriage, which previously had been a religious matter) when Henry VIII had a certain problem with Wife #1 (or was it wife #2?) and the Pope would not give him his divorce. So, Henry created the Church of England and merged, for awhile, Church and State.

The State gradually took over marriage. And it becomes contentious because, under laws in the USA, at least, so many benefits accrue automatically to married couples. If you are married to someone, no one can prevent you from visiting them in hospital when they are ill. If you aren't, their family or even the hospital can keep you out. Retirement benefits. Social Security benefits. And it goes on and on.

The matter probably would not be so contentious, but for all the non-religious but socially regulated benefits that marriage brings to a couple.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

In many states marriages were not recorded in pubic record until the mid 1800s.

The benefits are considerable, as are substantial tax breaks. Single people pay a high premium here to not be married.

Rich gays adopt each other to obtain benefits even as adults. It is very expensive and difficult, and sometimes a judge may not accept the petition but persistance usually wins.

The problem with adoption, is it is permanent and very difficult to reverse if a "divorce" becomes necessary.

I knew a gay couple in California who were multi-millionaires in real estate and owned nearly 800 rental units. One was killed in an automobile accident, and his poor white trash family took his lover to the cleaners.

His will did not hold up in probate against the family's challenge.

And the courts awarded them 1/2 of their estate plus all the family's legal fees. The grieving lover couldn't even get his ashes.

Civil union rights would not have let that happen.

These men built an empire together and created hundreds of good jobs.
This is how America rewarded them.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

The family had a huge legal team of the best vulture attorneys working pro-bono, FREE !

The surviving lover was totally devastated, and dranked himself to death in three years.

There are many other stories like that one among our people.

Posted by: clever1

Sad story bob, but it doesn't matter if you are rich or just average, the consequences of losing everything you posess, can change anybody.

Been there and worn the Tshirt.

John

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

And I am very experienced in starting over after losing it all.

Why do we fall down? To learn how to get up again.

Back to Russia.
Nickolay isn't concerned with the police, but the skinheads.
Because of them he has cut his hair short and dyed it dark.
It is safer for him to look like them somewhat than be confronted by them.
Even in a large college town they are a real problem in Russia.

They were a problem in America too, especially in the 80s.
During times of recession and a bad economy with high unemployment, these kinds of dangerous young people just happen. In ways I blame the muslim riots in France and Germany on the economic conditions more than a belief system.

I still feel Russia will accomplish gains in human rights for my people soon there, and it will be a black eye on Conservative America to the world.
IMHO

Posted by: clever1

Don't know if you've seen this bob.

Russia's first gay parade vetoed by 'outraged' city

Here's the link.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article345947.ece

thought you would be interested in it.

John

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

No I was not aware of that news but I am not surprised.

What the Russian leadership does for votes in the media, and what they do behind closed doors for social engineering designs, are two different matters.

They cannot stop a parade and remain a free society just because some religious leaders fan the flames of haterd.

The next generation of Russians will not be so easily rallied against us.

Russia will have an international PR problem with the EU Human Rights Accord which they agreed to follow.

I might add that 99% of gay Russians could not care less about a parade.
Same % as here in America. Parades do not truly represent us.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

I found this searching on the internet yesterday.

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by clever1

Don't know if you've seen this bob.

Russia's first gay parade vetoed by 'outraged' city

Here's the link.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article345947.ece

thought you would be interested in it.

John

It now appears the gay European Union people are planning to flood Moscow for this event, in numbers that will shock the world. It was not going to be a big deal until the mayor of Moscow caved into mostly Muslim leader's demands.

If it is a full scale riot they want in Moscow, I am afraid that they are now going to get one. Planes and hotels in Moscow are booked solid.
Millions of pink dollars will pour into Moscow

A sunami of Solidarity for Russian Gays has begun from the grassroots of Europe.

I predict it will be historic, and possibly violent.
I can easily see the numbers exceeding 50,000 now that they said no.
If they would have left it alone, I doubt 5,000 would have showed up.
What will Moscow do then?

Posted by: youlek

Sorry, but firstly they have the right to marry each other. Then nobody will be shocked because of such marriages. Then it'll become an ordinary thing in our life. And what is next?
I find it disgusting. I dont hate such people. But I hate what they do.

Posted by: ira156

Hey Guys and Gals. I am in no way homophobic or anti gay. But i am sick and tired to hear about gay rights and pride parades. In Sydney to my knowledge they have the oldest and biggest gay pride parade around. It is telecast on TV and a major event.

We constsantly hear the gay argument that they are just the same as the rest of us ....only there choice of sexual preference is different. Then they have a parade to show us all just how different they are. If a bunch of Hetrosexuals held a parade depicting the costumes and mimiced sexual behaviour they would be arrested even here.

I went to a party some time ago attended by a gay guy going to africa on holiday. I thought id listen into the conversation as it would be interesting.......all i heard was what sexual "FUN" he was going to get up to in very crass detail. One girl who was sharing a house with us at the time said how cool he was....WHAT A JOKE. I said to her if it was a woman that had siad those things she would have been called a SL@T and a WH#RE and osticsised.

I have no problem with someones personal sexual preference if they are consentual adults. But they should be just that PERSONAL and private. Gays have a unique possition of being no different to the eye than the rest of us....they can be white ...black ...asian ect ect. Unlike a black person who is subject to prejiduce who cant hide his or her colour.

If Gays have a problem in being treated differently then stop showing all of us how different you are. If you are just normal people that only have a sexual liking for people of the same sex....power to you....but shoving it in my face is a NO NO....just as if i was to go on about my sexual exploits it would be deemed socialy unexceptable .

Homosexuality is not normal....nor is it wrong...its just different. I dont have a problem with any gay person having the same rights as anyone else....marriage ....raising children ect ect. But dont try and force on me that its the norm...because it isnt. And just like fanatical religious beliefs or political agendas....when you try and force it on people or thow it in their face you will get resistance. My 2 cents

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

Hey Guys and Gals. I am in no way homophobic or anti gay. But i am sick and tired to hear about gay rights and pride parades. In Sydney to my knowledge they have the oldest and biggest gay pride parade around. It is telecast on TV and a major event.

We constsantly hear the gay argument that they are just the same as the rest of us ....only there choice of sexual preference is different. Then they have a parade to show us all just how different they are. If a bunch of Hetrosexuals held a parade depicting the costumes and mimiced sexual behaviour they would be arrested even here.

I went to a party some time ago attended by a gay guy going to africa on holiday. I thought id listen into the conversation as it would be interesting.......all i heard was what sexual "FUN" he was going to get up to in very crass detail. One girl who was sharing a house with us at the time said how cool he was....WHAT A JOKE. I said to her if it was a woman that had siad those things she would have been called a SL@T and a WH#RE and osticsised.

I have no problem with someones personal sexual preference if they are consentual adults. But they should be just that PERSONAL and private. Gays have a unique possition of being no different to the eye than the rest of us....they can be white ...black ...asian ect ect. Unlike a black person who is subject to prejiduce who cant hide his or her colour.

If Gays have a problem in being treated differently then stop showing all of us how different you are. If you are just normal people that only have a sexual liking for people of the same sex....power to you....but shoving it in my face is a NO NO....just as if i was to go on about my sexual exploits it would be deemed socialy unexceptable .

Homosexuality is not normal....nor is it wrong...its just different. I dont have a problem with any gay person having the same rights as anyone else....marriage ....raising children ect ect. But dont try and force on me that its the norm...because it isnt. And just like fanatical religious beliefs or political agendas....when you try and force it on people or thow it in their face you will get resistance. My 2 cents

I second that emotion.

The vast majority of gays do not march in parades or make a scene of themselves.
It is only the flamers that get seen for the most part and they are a loud minority of gays.

Even my family says " we don't care just don't rub our nose in it."

I never have.

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi guys,

I appreciate and enjoyed reading the opinions about homsexuality and whether it is normal or not normal, but I want to remind us to stay on topic to keep this forum section about Homosexuality AND Russia.

I know that some people feel uncomfortable about homosexuality or think it is wrong, but this is not really what this section is about.

By the way, Bob, please feel free to work on assembling information about gays in Russia on the Ruskipedia page about that topic here:

http://www.russianinternetguide.com...er_Soviet_Union

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

I also created a RMP forum thread about that Ruskipedia article about Homosexuality and Gays and Russia here:

http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=13275

Posted by: ira156

Hey Khashyar. On my recent travel to Russia i noticed one thing. People are very very very BUSY. They seem to have so much on there plate that many things....including gay rights ect hold very little importance. I brought up many things with Nat...homosexuality among them.....it just didnt rate....either in the positive or negative. I think just as radical gays like to push their agenda.....so do the radical anti-gays. Moscovites seemed to have their little space around them...and as long as you dont encroach on it ...they are fine.

Although it is still a very male dominated society,,,,and homosexuality challanges that male domination indirectly. We have heard Andreis veiws on it and i would assume many RED BLOODED Russian males would have the same.......hopefully there are a few more Russian men that can shed light for us.

Posted by: Khashyar

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and feedback on this.

I do know that from my experience, Homosexuality seems to be a hush-hush sort of (be gay but don't tell) subject in Russia.

But, yes, the average Russian family seems to have other very important practical matters to deal with, and have less time to discuss things like gay rights.

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Bob,

Thank you for adding information to that Ruskipedia thread.

I want to have the conversations about that Ruskipedia Gay thread on this other forum thread that is specifically about the Gay section on Ruskipedia:

http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=13276

Thanks Bob.

Khashyar

Posted by: youlek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khashyar

I know that some people feel uncomfortable about homosexuality or think it is wrong, but this is not really what this section is about.

wrong? you've used a wrong word. If they have the same right to marry each other, your children will think there is nothing wrong in loving a person of the same sex. Do you wish it to your kids?

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi yolek,

I don't want to get into a discussion about what homosexuality is, and whether it is good or bad, because that really is not the purpose of this section.

To answer your question about my children, my first concern would be their happiness, and the kind of life they choose to live would their own, even if I wouldn't want to live that kind of life.

But again, this forum section is not about discussing the rightness or wrongness of being gay, because I don't think anything positive will come out of that kind of discussion.

I'd be happy to speak about other aspects of Russia with you though

Khashyar

Posted by: ira156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khashyar

Hi yolek,

I don't want to get into a discussion about what homosexuality is, and whether it is good or bad, because that really is not the purpose of this section.

To answer your question about my children, my first concern would be their happiness, and the kind of life they choose to live would their own, even if I wouldn't want to live that kind of life.

But again, this forum section is not about discussing the rightness or wrongness of being gay, because I don't think anything positive will come out of that kind of discussion.

I'd be happy to speak about other aspects of Russia with you though

Khashyar

I agree Khashyar....but you asked for the views of Russians on Homosexuality...and you got one .....right or wrong in our eyes

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

I agree Khashyar....but you asked for the views of Russians on Homosexuality...and you got one .....right or wrong in our eyes

I and millions of others wish it was as simple as right or wrong, and a choice.

The perception is that being gay is a behavioral choice and must be learned and accepted.

The only behaviorial teaching I got was how to hate gays.

There was gene studies seeking the cause of homosexuality that were non-conclusive.

Just months ago there was a one hour special on PBS.
The latest research shows that hormone levels in the womb directly link to causing gay children. It is rare but enough to show a biological reason why so many gays feel they had no choice. The study was done again at a separate university with the same results of hormone patterns causing gay behavior in male rats. This was followed with research now being conducted with human trials of womb hormone testing during fetus stages.
Initial results are positive for the Hormone Hypothesis .

Gay behavior exist with all mammals and other creatures.
Sheep herders speak of a male being "good for the herd" if he shows an interest in the females. And the "duds" who are only interested in the company of other males.

I have no problem with people saying it is wrong to be gay.
I hope to retain the right to say why it may not be a choice.

Perhaps straight people could choose to be gay.
I would not know!

Posted by: Khashyar

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

I agree Khashyar....but you asked for the views of Russians on Homosexuality...and you got one .....right or wrong in our eyes

Hi Ira,

I welcome a discussion about the view of Homosexuality in Russian culture, but this thread is about "Will Russia make homosexuality a crime? (anti-gay laws being considered?)"

It is not about what I agree with or don't agree with, it is that I don't want to get into a hot flame in this thread about the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality, which I think will only add injury to the atmosphere of the forum, and will not accomplish anything positive.

Khashyar

Posted by: ira156

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khashyar

Khashyar, i think my views will be similar to yours , but governments often make decisions that they know people will except. Youleks views ( from memory very similar to Andreis) are a relfextion of Russian perspective on the subject....hopefully we will here some more views from Russians.

But at the end of the day if the "average Russian" has these sorts of views it is far more likely to have these sorts of laws passed. By the way from memory Homosexuality was still illegal in our state of Tasmania as late as 1990, at the same time we were having the biggest gay rights parade in the world in Sydney???? Go figure???

Posted by: Khashyar

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

Interesting, Ira...

Yes, I think that governments generally pass laws that reflect the sentiments of the people at large.

Great governments pass visionary laws that have the highest principles (and that protect the citizens and the Greatest Good), even if most of the government's people do not agree.

I opened a new dedicated thread to talk about what Russian culture has to say about homosexuality, and what Russians generally feel about homosexuality:

http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=13297

Let's continue to the discussion about that topic there.

Khashyar

Posted by: Samurai_Bob

Quote:

Originally Posted by ira156

But at the end of the day if the "average Russian" has these sorts of views it is far more likely to have these sorts of laws passed. By the way from memory Homosexuality was still illegal in our state of Tasmania as late as 1990, at the same time we were having the biggest gay rights parade in the world in Sydney???? Go figure???

Russia is a very new democracy and still America struggles with this issue far more than the EU or Britian does.

It is a constitutional challenge unfolding.
Yes the majority can make laws against the acceptance of a minority, but....
...If a majority can determine the civil rights of a minority how do we continue to be a democracy?

Asking for equal rights in wills, benefits, taxation and the protection of civil unions for all citizens is not that hard to see as a benefit for the total society.

Here in Amerika (new spelling now) our majority of fundamental Christians have many political battles going and gay rights is a major hot button for the fundies.

I am reminded of the time prior to our Civil War that ministers used the Bible to support slavery and for not allowing blacks to marry.

In summary the democratic experiment is ongoing and changing-evolving if you will-in the never ending search for perfection if such a thing is possible.

However the day we allow the majority to dictate the rights of a minority, is the day we are no longer a democracy.

Posted by: youlek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khashyar

ok, let's discuss ""Will Russia make homosexuality a crime?".
I really hope. If they don't, gays won't have mush freedom here. I remember when they had a parade, they were waited by skin-heads and religious people