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advice needed!

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Posted by: darren_v

Hello out there, I'm 33yo living in the Wash. DC area. I met a 30yo Russian woman on an American dating site some six months ago and we started speaking about the possibility of meeting. Since then, she has come to visit for a two week vacation that is ending this weekend, and things have been going very well for us - we are both in love with each other. However, yesterday evening she indicated that she would like to stay with me and not return to Russia, which means leaving her job in Moscow and leaving her country and family behind! She works for an American insurance group in Moscow, so we are looking into the possibility of her getting a work VISA and transferring her job if this is possible. What should I do? How should I progress with this? I really have two problems - risking that her love isn't genuine (I believe over the past two weeks of being with her that it is) and also that we might not be able to make any of this work. Please, if someone would offer their advice I would greatly appreciate it, thank you! If you'd like me to provide any qualifying information about our relationship I will be happy to do so.

Darren_v


Posted by: rob_we

darren
seems there is one thing to clear BEFORE you proceed with any further steps. Maybe I understood you wrong ,but I have the impression you are NOT sure yet! If you have ANY doubts left then DONT! If you are not 1000% sure then DONT!!! Im not a law expert in us so i cant say if there is trouble if she doenst go back, and if its possible to change her visa while shes in the country! But if you hesitate too much you maybe overlook certain thins as she does.... Thats a timebomb that you set up then, for both of you! Maybe it would be more wise for both of you if she would go back first, and you arrange things in us and she does in russia. You two stay in close contact meanwhile and then you go..... ?


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Darren , I would advise you to visit her in her country- meet her in her own town and meet her freinds and familly - spend at least a month in each others company before making any big decisions about marriage - as St Paul said " Love is patient .... " So ( not being a saint but willing to bet St Paul was right ) I would go slowly . If your gf wants to rush things or you sense that she is irritated by the slowness of the realtionship you will know that this is not love as love is patient.

The fact that she has a good job in her country is a good indicator , Darren , that she is not looking for a sugar daddy or is a gold digger. I would also say that she is well educated so this also means that she is an equal to you .


Rattle


Posted by: wavetossed

If you love something, let it go.
If it comes back, it is yours.
If it doesn't, it never was.




Posted by: FlashingEyes

Darren,

First, congratulations on your happy story (so far). There's a lot more left to be discovered but you've taken a big step. One thing I note right away is that you are one of the very lucky few Americans who have a Russian woman who is able to get a visa to travel to the US. Normally we have to go there.

It is not unusual when a Russian woman is able to get a visa and meets her man and everything goes very well that she might express a desire to stay. In some respects, this is a cultural expression - even though she might logically realize that it will be necessary for her to leave and come back at a later date, she is expressing that she really cares for you, is ready in her heart to take a big step with you, and hopes that you will express the same caring for her in response. It is not ultimately so important whether the two of you can figure a way for her to stay, so much as it is that you demonstrate an effort and demonstrated desire for her to stay.

You must be very careful not to advise her to do anything which will violate the laws of the United States, including immigration laws. However, that said, you often have a great deal of leeway within the law. For instance, you said she came to visit you for two weeks. US visas are often issues for a period of three months, and you should check the visa in her passport to see when it expires. You should have latitude to delay her departure till a later date, as long as she leaves before the visa expires. When she arrived in the US, she was asked how long she intended to stay, but as long as she answered honestly at that time, this estimate does not preclude her from making a change of plans within the permitted stay period of her visa.

Personally, I would advise you to spend as much time with her as possible, if you are serious and "in love", as you say. The longer you spend with her, the more you can discover about the real person, and make sure that the "two week" image was not a persona. It is, as rattlesnake stated, a good idea to meet her in her own country, to meet her family and friends and see her day-to-day life, before making any serious commitment. But in your case you will have to weigh this very good advice against a unique possibility which you have now.

Because she is already in the US, you also have a great number of opportunities to do things that a lot of us wish we could do. You can, as you've already noted, apply for all sorts of possible visas right here in the U.S., which might allow her to stay longer, and because she is here now you can get much faster processing on many of them. I will tell you that I know more than a few guys that, were their Russian fiance with them right now in the U.S. on any kind of visa, would jump at the chance to marry and then file for a "change of status" which instantly changes her visa from tourist or whatever to legal resident, as the wife of an American citizen. This is the same "change of status" that occurs when a woman visits the U.S. on a fiance visa (which allows her to stay up to three months) and as long as she marries in that time, she can file a "change of status" and stay permanently (well, provisionally to be technical about it but it's all the same...) The only difference is that the process of filing a fiance visa can easily take anywhere from 6 months to a year, and there's a bunch of paperwork and interviews that you could avoid entirely. So I do admit a few people will be jealous of your situation because they are quite certain they want to get married and it would be an oversight for me not to at least mention this unique opportunity, but all in all with you're only having known her for two weeks I think it's prudent to plan a courtship period, visit her country, and then eventually bring her back before making such a big commitment.


Posted by: James Riske

Hey buddy, you want some incredible advice that will give you everything you need to know about her and proceed with no doubts whatsoever in about one week?

Bug her.

Go to radio shack and buy a cheap phone tap that plugs into your extension outlet and hook up a tape recorder to it and stash it under the couch or wherever. If she sends emails, put a keyghost logger on the computer to capture her letters. www.keyghost.com Send it all out to a translator and then find out if she's planning on using you or genuinely loves you.


I know I'll get flamed for this and whatnot but I guarantee you'll know everything you need to know about this woman and probably save yourself a couple years of heartache and misery and a few hundred thousands bucks if not more. It sounds to me like she's very fishy and I'm certain that after a week of bugging, you'll kick her out. So far, every man who has done this after suspicions such as yours about their Russian girlfriend has kicked her out within a week. Without fail. Every single one of them and I know 20 so far including my buddy, James (Tom).

So, for those who feel that bugging is wrong and all that (I know the women will give me hell), all I can say is that so far, I'm batting 100%. One hundred percent, ladies. Every single time I recommended this and the guy set up the bugs the woman was just using the American, lying, and cheating and this one doesn't sound any different. I would only recommend this if there's reason for concern and the courtship doesn't sound normal. As in this case.

You don't know if she has this job or not, you have never met her family or friends in Russia, and you have only really known her for two weeks. Did she jump in the sack with you on the first night? Second? Third? Come on, buddy, think about it. She came here looking for a patsy so she can stay here and you're it, pal. Start recording some of her phone calls, have them translated, and I guarantee you won't be walking down the aisle with this one and you'll give her to old heave ho with a smile on your face.

I'm sure by now, she's brought up the marriage question, right? haha That's where she's leading up to, my friend. She wants you to marry her and as soon as she gets her green card, you might as well go get a motor home to live in because she's changing the locks on you, bud!

The reason I'm being so harsh on you and certain of her intentions is because of this:

"""""- risking that her love isn't genuine (I believe over the past two weeks of being with her that it is)"""""""""


Hey, my friend, how old are you? 12? You're in love in two weeks? Listen, she knows she has an inexperienced pushover on her hands and she's milking your udders as we speak. You better AT LEAST start spying on her before you do anything stupid. I will guarantee that you will sit there with your mouth wide open in utter disbelief when you get her first few calls or emails translated. When you find out, don't get violent or wierd but just ask her to leave and remember that you owe your friend Lloyd big time.

Would it bother me if my 'fiance' bugged me? NO, because I don't lie and if I gave her real reasons to be suspicious - as in this case - I would understand. In other words, I don't do things to make her want to bug me!

LLOYD (using James' comp)


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Lloyd there are ways to avoid being shafted ie living in a motor home ( an you do not need to bug a phone )- before the marriage sign over the property you live in to a relative - divorce will end in the ex receiving 0% of the property as it is not legally yours to divide.

Second , I have nothing (0) in my bank so , half of 0 is nothing -

Finally , there is my pension . Yes I agree , an ex wife is allowed half my pension but she will have to wait 25 years for this !!!!


Rattle


Posted by: parasionok

Darren,

if you are planning to get a work visa in the US for her, then she should talk to her employer. If the employer agrees to employ her in the US, then to get a H-1b visa is not a problem. My US employer got me a german work visa for 5 years without any problems. They employed an agency to do all paperwork and file all the documents. They did a great job and I got my visa within 7 working days. Their web site is http://workpermit.com. They can give you a free cosultation there to start with and then if her employer goes for it, I am sure you will sort it out. As far as I remember, she can get 3 years work visa in the US with the possibility to extend it for another 3 years. I am sure 6 years will be enough for you to decide whether you really want to be together


Posted by: darren_v

Hey folks, first thank you so much for the VERY helpful advice you've given me. I'm not going to install any key or phone bugs as I don't believe that's a good basis for trust, and I have some very good reasons for placing trust in her (believe me, I've been doubtful and suspicious of her motives before but my fears have subsided). I know she has this job because I've seen her business card, and her emails all bear the same signature markings (not to mention, her email has the suffix of the company). Additionally, I've personally written and received responses from her friends, two of whom have American husbands, so I know she is genuine there. Finally, we didn't exactly fall in love over two weeks. We've been writing and calling each other for over six months and have shared quite a few of our thoughts and feelings. I really do love her.

Anyway, I will look into the H1-B visa and the possibility of her staying longer. Her tourist visa expires in August of 05, and she can come back at any time before then, and each visit can last up to 6 months. She told them last time she was on vacation for two weeks, so it would make sense for her to return home this Monday (when her two weeks are up), if for no other reason then to return to work and not lose her current job! However, that doesn't give us a whole lot of time to explore options while she is here. With that said, does anyone have any recommendations for maximizing what little time she has left (basically one working day and a weekend?) Should she speak to schools, the Russian embassy, immigration office, or should she do nothing, have fun with me, and do it all from home? She CAN return, and she has plans to do this with my later this year or early next year, so it may make sense for us to just wait until then... but if anyone has any other suggestions, I'd certainly welcome them.

Again, THANK YOU all for your great help!

Darren_v


Posted by: rob_we

I'm not going to install any key or phone bugs as I don't believe that's a good basis for trust

Darren I would act the same. Its my opinion too that if you feel the need to bug someone you should not consider to marry her...

I wish you all my best...


Posted by: myshka

I simply cant believe it!!

there is someone here who actually has a Russian woman here visiting them!!! It must be a lie, no Russian woman ever got a visitors visa according to the American men on this site!!

Ok, sarcasm over


Posted by: James Riske

With all due respect, Darren, you're heading for disaster.

Lloyd talked me into the bugging thing and it saved my butt big time.

But we all live and learn and once you're burned by this woman, just remember not to blame all Russian women as there are some good ones out there. I read all the earmarks in what she's doing and how you're acting to AT LEAST warrant a bug to protect yourself but you won't even do that.

I'll set aside a body bag for you.

JAMES
not Lloyd


Posted by: parasionok

James,

what makes you think that she is a scammer? She has a visa to the US, she can travel, she has a good job, she lives in Moscow. James, don't you believe that a russian woman can just fall in love with an american man without plotting to get hold of all his money, to get a GC, to harm him in every possible way, and then dump him.... What was so suspicious about her? She wants to be with him... but that's wonderful! I don't know many girls in Moscow with a job like hers who would want to relocate to the US. Actually I have not met a single one... why do they need your Green Card??? why would they want to leave everything behind? They have everything they need... To my opinion, if she wants to be with Darren, she must really love him....


Posted by: wavetossed

Are you all familiar with the story of Elena Petrova?

http://www.womenrussia.com/who.htm
http://www.russian-women-info.com/a...orderbrides.htm

She runs the well-known Elena's Models service. You all know how the value of a dollar is multiplied several times inside Russia, so the question is, why would she be running this successful business from Australia instead of inside Russia? By doing it outside Russia she is reducing her net worth to probably 20% of what it would be inside Russia.

Clearly, like she says in the second URL above, she is after love, not money.

Why is it so hard to believe that other Russian women feel the same way. I strongly recommend that you read the two URLs above because it is not often that Russian women are able to express themselves so eloquently and at such length in English.

You will note that she has a whole series of interlinked sites selling e-books, tours and various related things. It's worth while to follow up a few of these because her sites are peppered with testimonials, links to newspaper articles, letters from women, etc. Even though there is a certain spin to this stuff, you can learn an awful lot by reading it.

And if you read the free e-book "101 Tips" at http://www.zamuzh.com using http://babelfish.altavista.com then you can see the kind of advice that Russian women are giving to each other. Most of them are not scammers, just real people which means they are fallible just like you and I. If you want a real relationship then you must learn the art of muddling through the uncertain and awkward situations that mark the beginning of a close relationship.


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
James,

what makes you think that she is a scammer?... To my opinion, if she wants to be with Darren, she must really love him....



I don't think she's a scammer, just a user because of this:

"""two week vacation that is ending this weekend, and things have been going very well for us - we are both in love with each other. However, yesterday evening she indicated that she would like to stay with me and not return to Russia, which means leaving her job in Moscow and leaving her country and family behind!"""


'We are both in love"? It's only been two weeks. I can understand if only the man thought he was in love but most women know better and know that you can not fall in love in two weeks.

Of course she'd like to stay in the U.S., that's why she came here. Funny how she doesn't even need to go get more of her belongings in Russia, huh? She just brought everything with her for her 'two week vacation' huh? And if her job in Russia is so good, why is she leaving it and wanting to stay in the U.S. illegally and not be eligible to even legally have a job? She's only been here for two weeks and now suddenly knows not only that she's in love with him but that she wants to leave everything behind in Russia and live here? sure...sure...

Oh let me guess what's going to happen next......she's going to manipulate him to marry her either by making him believe they're in love or just talking him into marrying her for her green card and work authorization card.

Hopefully, when she drops the bomb on him during her final days of her 'vacation' he'll wise up and give her the boot and find himself a woman with more maturity and integrity.

JAMES


Posted by: davis

Hey, James, Cool off!!
It's been a while since I've heard from you!

Darell, why does she have to go back right now? If her visa is not expired she may stay longer. This will give you time to learn a little more about her. She may make arrangements at her work too. It doesn't mean she has to burn all bridges now, just take a little more time with her.


Posted by: James Riske

I give you 20 to 1 odds that she'll drop the marriage bomb on him, if she hasn't already and that's why he's not posting anymore.

And then I'll give you 50 to 1 odds that she'll disappear when her magical green card arrives in the mail two years from now.


"Fall in love in two weeks..." "Oh gee, honey, I've decided that I want to stay here in America after all...."


sure..sure...


James


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by rattlesnake6979
Lloyd there are ways to avoid being shafted ie living in a motor home ( an you do not need to bug a phone )- before the marriage sign over the property you live in to a relative - divorce will end in the ex receiving 0% of the property as it is not legally yours to divide.

Second , I have nothing (0) in my bank so , half of 0 is nothing -

Finally , there is my pension . Yes I agree , an ex wife is allowed half my pension but she will have to wait 25 years for this !!!!


Rattle


I could never understand this approach.
Isn't it ONLY marital property subjected to divorce distribution?
The property accumulated BEFORE the marriage is not distributable, and is the sole posession of each party.


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by James Riske
I give you 20 to 1 odds that she'll drop the marriage bomb on him, if she hasn't already and that's why he's not posting anymore.

And then I'll give you 50 to 1 odds that she'll disappear when her magical green card arrives in the mail two years from now.


"Fall in love in two weeks..." "Oh gee, honey, I've decided that I want to stay here in America after all...."


sure..sure...


James



Tom,there is a bunch of examples even on this site of happy couples who literally spent a couple of days together before marriage.
Permanent Green card takes a lot longer than two years now days, and this is enough time to recognise fake intentions.
Nobody tells him to get married on Monday.
I can only repeat my advise: if her visa is valid till next August, she can stay in the States without a worry. And this is a long time too, enough to make up one's mind.
It doesn't matter what she said to the consular, her words are not reflected in any document. She can legally stay here, and she doesn't need any work visa or any additional documentation.


Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:
Originally posted by davis
Tom,there is a bunch of examples even on this site of happy couples who literally spent a couple of days together before marriage.

Almost everybody feels that they are the exception to the rule. How many people admit that they aren't a very good driver?

I read several forums, and there are a number of men who are "One Week Wonders", who trumpeted how they were the exception, and fell in love and quickly married. It also seems that now, many are saying that things are not as rosy as they first reported (and others are not heard from at all. Were they successful, or too embarrassed or busy to eat crow?).

If you are going to marry someone, it does not matter if they are from Russia or your home town. It takes time to learn who they are, for them to learn who you are, and for both of you to decide if marriage is best for the both of you. Letting outside influences such as time, money, and immigration hassles color your decision is a recipe for disaster.


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by davis
I could never understand this approach.
Isn't it ONLY marital property subjected to divorce distribution?
The property accumulated BEFORE the marriage is not distributable, and is the sole posession of each party.


The laws vary from State to State and in many, you don't even have to be married for the woman to take most of what you own and then require you to send her a check every month, even when she moves in with another man. Palimony, it's called.

My best friend from high school worked as an auto mechanic most of his adult life, got married at 30, divorced at 35 and not only did she take his house and car but his tools too. He had about 25K worth of tools and she took them all; the tools that he makes his living with and that he's been slowly accumulating ever since high school.

I'm certainly not a divorce lawyer but I know what I see and I darn sure remember him sleeping on my couch for 6 months utterly broke and living out of suitcase after his divorce with no tools. His wife was extremely competitive, gender confused and blamed him for everything so he in turn, stopped coming home as often and worked late hours to avoid her. He didn't know what to do with her, she didn't want to be a housewife but didn't want to work either. His side of it was that she was *****y and unhappy all the time and her side is that he ignored her and didn't love her anymore.

Now, with all this going on, as Conner says, it's extremely foolish to marry a woman after a couple weeks to say the least. The stakes are much too high especially when you consider that you may have children with each other.

I agree with your advice in theory, Davis, that she should stay the extra time that's on her visa but my point is that she was being decpetive from the beginning and that's reason to dump. I don't believe for a minute that she didn't have the intentions of staying here when she arrived and I don't believe her when she says, "I love you, " to him after a week. By BS meter is fully in the red.

JAMES


Posted by: Vyesna

I'm also inclined to think that there was more than a little premeditation on her part. This doesn't mean she hasn't honestly convinced herself that she is in love and that she will make a good faith effort at marriage, but the problem with that is that self-deception can only last so long if things don't work out so that such self-deception becomes a reality. I would be inclined to not rush into it-- try the long distance thing for a while and see if it works out.

My husband and I were together 10 months before we got married and lived together about 8 of those months and I still thought we were rushing it and we still had a ways to go before we really could say we knew and understood each other well-- and this is with me knowing Russian a lot better than the vast majority of the Russian women arriving in the U.S. as fiancees know English and understanding life in Russia and what it's like to move to another country as a foreigner a lot better than the vast majority of American men marrying Russian women understand those things.


Posted by: Vyesna

Also, she might be qualified for an L visa if she has the requisite number of years at her company and the right position. It's the easiest of all of them. She should look into that on her own, or into the H-1B if that's what she's interested in without putting any pressure on the K-1 idea. What I'm afraid might be the case is that she already knows she can't get a work visa because she's not qualified for whatever reason and is trying the other route of getting to the States.

Do you know if she has a college degree in a subject that could conceivably be related to whatever she's doing now?


Posted by: parasionok

James,

Quote:
I agree with your advice in theory, Davis, that she should stay the extra time that's on her visa but my point is that she was being decpetive from the beginning and that's reason to dump. I don't believe for a minute that she didn't have the intentions of staying here when she arrived and I don't believe her when she says, "I love you, " to him after a week. By BS meter is fully in the red.


Well, do you believe Darren when he says that he loves her?

Ok, imagine she would not have said that she wanted to stay with the him. (Again she might have been accused then not being romantically involved and not being attracted enough). Then, she goes back to Moscow after these two weeks, he stays at home. They keep corresponding. This scenario is in no way helping their relationship. What will they achieve?

Sometimes people spend very short time together and they have very wonderful time and they don't want this time end. When people think and feel like this, they decide stay together.

It doesn't make any sense to live separately for years to come, does it?

My Ukrainian colleague met his wife on ICQ: He is from Lviv, she lived 900 km away in East Ukraine. He visited her in her town, then she moved to Lviv and they got married. They are happy together. How is their relationship different from American-Russian couples who date online, then meet, and then decide to get married?

Why is it always that a Russian woman should be after American green card?


Posted by: rob_we

James

Don´t you contradict yourself in a way?
You say here...

Quote:
Davis, that she should stay the extra time that's on her visa but my point is that she was being decpetive from the beginning and that's reason to dump. I don't believe for a minute that she didn't have the intentions of staying here when she arrived and I don't believe her when she says, "I love you, " to him after a week.


But in another thread we have a different situation... (just back from St. Pete)

The woman is thinking, had some doubts, need time´, you say

Quote:
She had zero interest in him and proved it by not kissing, hugging, or even holding hands. She already rejected him.

It can't be wrong because she already told him.

Women never lie; men don't listen.


So IS there actually ANY possibility to come together for you? And to trust each other?
I accept you have seen a lot happening, but somehow life is not only and always about sorrow and pain... And I think we will agree that not all women in the world are just greedy and behind a greencard and money to my opinion. Maybe you had this bad experiences because you look (as most men and women) allways for the same "type" ...?
I think without any knowledge about both its really hard to say IF she or he is this or that....


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
James

Don´t you contradict yourself in a way?
You say here...



But in another thread we have a different situation... (just back from St. Pete)

The woman is thinking, had some doubts, need time´, you say



So IS there actually ANY possibility to come together for you? And to trust each other?
I accept you have seen a lot happening, but somehow life is not only and always about sorrow and pain... And I think we will agree that not all women in the world are just greedy and behind a greencard and money to my opinion. Maybe you had this bad experiences because you look (as most men and women) allways for the same "type" ...?
I think without any knowledge about both its really hard to say IF she or he is this or that....



I think your missing the point he was making in both circumstances. When someone professes to be "in love" with you in a very short period of time (2 weeks), it is usually not a good sign.

Any big "rush" is not a postive sign. If someone loves you they are willing to wait. To let time test and see if the love you THINK you have is real or just infatuation.

In case two, its very clear that the woman here isnt interested romantically in this guy. You SHOULD be concerened with someone who is professing undying love that you frankly barely know. You should also be concerened when a woman is acting distant and gives you repeated indications with her body language that she isnt attracted to you.

Man you guys make this a LOT more difficult than it is.... Why would ANYONE want to be with someone who isnt really into them???? I simply do not understand that at all......


Posted by: parasionok

James, RobOhio,

then tell me guys, what a woman should do? YOu say, if she wants to stay with you and tells you "I love you" during her 2 weeks staying with a guy, she should be dumped. If she is not hugging and kissing you during the first, second or third date, whatever, then she should be dumpedas well...

Then what should she do?


Posted by: Keystone

Love is a very complex emotion. I found this forum after I was already engaged and if I followed some of the advise giving on this forum I would probably not be engaged. In my situation with my Ukraine fiancee we told each other we loved each very early on even before we met. Did I feel her words where sincere? Yes. Did I truly believe she loved me? Maybe. When I said to her "I love you." Were my words sincere? Yes. Did I truly love her? Maybe. The point I am trying to make is that when someone is beginning a relationship one person may say "I love you" and the other person says "I love you" back. Are either or both truly in love? Maybe. Only time can tell.

Also, I have found that a lot is lost in translation (if you are using marriage agency) An example from our letters. Elena start signing "Always and forever, Love Elena." I asked her how could she mean such words so soon. She was shocked in that this is how the interpreter signed her letters. Guess who is not working at this agency anymore. Elena said she would never say such things because we still have much to learn of each other and that the future is unknown. I completely trust her honesty. And as I wrote above only time can tell.

Keystone
Going back in 9 days.


Posted by: davis

I totally agree with Keystone (PA?)
You, guys, deal not only with women (you can never understand them), but with foreigners, trying to adjudicate their behaviour from the hights of totally different mentality.
There is no rules, lots of misunderstanding, lack of communication and literally different languages. Russian girls struggle to say something in English, and when they do it doesn't come out right anyway. Anyone tryed to express feelings in foreign language?But, yet, everyone has an opinion and interpretation on what that girl said, how she said it and what she meant.
Every marriage is a big lottery, we all take chances.
All this initial exitement fades away, and there you are with a person you never knew before. At least, Russians will struggle more and work on marriage a little harder.
And if she is a scammer, you will know it within the first year of living todether. Nobody can pretend for a long time, unless you are totally blind.
As to that particular case with Darrel, she only said that she wanted to stay. So what? By the end of her visa they will already know what to do.


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
James, RobOhio,

then tell me guys, what a woman should do? YOu say, if she wants to stay with you and tells you "I love you" during her 2 weeks staying with a guy, she should be dumped. If she is not hugging and kissing you during the first, second or third date, whatever, then she should be dumpedas well...

Then what should she do?


Just be yourselves and we will interpret your actions accordingly.

There is no contradiction here at all. If someone tells you that they love you after two weeks, it's not a good sign.

And if a woman doesn't want to kiss you or hug you after a date, she's not interested and you're wasting your time to date her again or get serious about her. Women have very distinct ways of letting you know if they are interested or not and turning the cheek is certainly one of them.


James


Posted by: davis

Here we go, Tom, God of interpretation. Based on poor knowledge. And how can you interprete a broken language?
I wouldn't kiss anybody on the mouth after the first date, the person is still a stranger. Even though I could be very interested to see him again.
But after two weeks sleeping with someone and having visible match I could definitely say "I love you".
Hey, and I'm not a scammer!


Posted by: parasionok

Quote:
If someone tells you that they love you after two weeks, it's not a good sign.


James,

I told my bf I loved him within one week after our first meeting. We have been together for more than a year now, and we are together 24/7. I mean it 24/7. And I don't want to part from him not even for a couple of days.


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
James, RobOhio,

then tell me guys, what a woman should do? YOu say, if she wants to stay with you and tells you "I love you" during her 2 weeks staying with a guy, she should be dumped. If she is not hugging and kissing you during the first, second or third date, whatever, then she should be dumpedas well...

Then what should she do?


It seems you have an issue with reading comprehension. I said, that if either party in a relationship wants to "RUSH THINGS" It is almost always going to have a bad outcome. Rushing into marriage after 2 weeks is little more than marrying a stranger. In fairness to the origian poster however, I took his post to indicate an interest to have the young lady obtain a work visa by having her home company transfer her to the US. Perhaps I misunderstood his original context.

Secondly, you are, yet once again putting words into my mouth that were never utter by me, Lloyd OR James.


Please read what is WRITTEN and ONLY what is written. The concept that James and I are talking about is refered to as a "KISS CLOSE." It is almost exclusively done at the END of the date.

You are jumbling several different things and jumping to WILDLY inaccuate conclusions.
Apparently you are oblivious to reading body language. Apparently you erronously assume that we advocate men acting like out of control jerks on a date. In both instances you could not possibly be more wrong.

On a first date a man is engaging, polite, funny, considerate and behaves like a gentleman at ALL TIMES. He also keeps his hands to himself regardless of what the woman does. If there is any physical contact he allows the woman to make it and KEEPS HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF. He shows self control. He watches how the woman BEHAVES. Is she an active participant in the conversation. Is she asking questions to keep the conversation going. Does she laugh at his jokes (lame as they may be) Does she smile a lot. Is she maintaining a lot of eye contact and smiling. If most of this is not happening what she is non verbally communicating is disinterest. If she is sitting across from you is she said to be closed (assuming it is not cold) She will have crossed arms and legs and be leaning back in the chair. Little or no eye contact. Forced smile or no smile. Forced laughter or no laughter at comedic efforts. No physical contact. Short non responsive interaction in casual conversation. No attempt at continued conversation by her. Few or no questions asked by her.

Assuming the girl showed some or all of those indications of attraction, at the end of the date a way to definatively determine a woman's level of attraction in a man is to close the date with a EFFORTLESS, NATURAL, UNFORCED (by him it must be done with confidence and without a bunch of hesitation) good nite kiss. If the woman offers her cheek, she is NOT very interested. PERIOD. A woman who is very interested in a man has no problem with a good night kiss.

Here are examples of CLEAR, UNMISTAKABLE, signs of disinterest:

1) We meet and smile, I give her a hug and a kiss on the cheek which she does not return???
2) I turn to look into her eyes, smile and reach out to give her a hug and she turns cold as a cucumber on me and backs me right off!!! If that one doest hammer the point home, nothing will......
3) OK, ends day 1. No hug, no kiss, pleasant "Good night"
4) later on......still no holding hands or arm around the shoulder
5) yet later in the trip.....she was pleasant and polite as ususal but still very distant

This woman has little to no interest in a romantic relationship with Russ. For you guys to pump this crap into his head that she might be is almost criminal.


When he was talking about his digital camera he said "She insisted that I purchase some prints before we left??? She sent me several photos from vacation spots in Spain and Egypt during our correspondence." She has enough money to travel to Spain and Egypt but not enough for a train ticket to St. Pete? What are you daft????????

The main problem EVERY man faces at one time or another (some men run into this problem a lot!) is when he is trying to rationalize what he sees as confusing behavior by a woman he nuts over. Instead of looking at the behavior and seeing it for what it is, he begins to rationalize and come up with reasons why its not so odd. She didnt kiss me because she is shy.... or because she didnt get the christmas present she desperately wanted when she was 8. When a woman is very attracted to a man she makes it unmistakably crystal clear.

I fail to see why any man or woman would waste time chasing someone who is at best marginally disinterested. For crying out loud, there are 4 billion people on this planet. Focus your time, energy and heart on finding someone who has similar interests who thinks you are the only one for them!

Lets assume for a moment that Lloyd, James and I are wrong..... we aren't but lets assume we are. Who is going to have all of the control and power in this relationship? Dont you want the kind of relationship where your girlfriend/wife thinks she is so blessed and lucky that she has you in her life? Where as a man you have this awesome, wonderful woman of character and depth who is a life partner, friend and lover in whom you think is the most awesome woman you have ever met? You dont find that in the type of first meeting Russ discribed.... EVER

Lloyd, James and I are advocating the same thing....

Men, FIND a woman of character, who really, really digs you. One who is very, very attracted to you right at the outset of things, and build your relationship and courtship with a woman like that, instead of chasing a woman who at BEST is marginally to totally disinterested in you.


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by davis
Here we go, Tom, God of interpretation. Based on poor knowledge. And how can you interprete a broken language?
I wouldn't kiss anybody on the mouth after the first date, the person is still a stranger. Even though I could be very interested to see him again.
But after two weeks sleeping with someone and having visible match I could definitely say "I love you".
Hey, and I'm not a scammer!



As DocLove would say..... Now Davis are you saying that in you ENTIRE LIFE, You have NEVER, EVER, not once.... ever kissed a guy on a first date?


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
As DocLove would say..... Now Davis are you saying that in you ENTIRE LIFE, You have NEVER, EVER, not once.... ever kissed a guy on a first date?


May be just for fun when I was 17. But it didn't mean I was interested.
And no, I wouldn't kiss a stranger on the mouth.
Now, your long explanation and quotation from Dr.Love may somewhat be reasonable for an American woman. Not for Russian.
As a matter of fact I still hate that American habbit to hold hands with anyone I went for a date with.
I also hate the habit to kiss everybody. Very often you can watch enemies putting a smile on the face and kising each other when they meet. Fake smiles, fake kisses, fake holding hands.
I'd rather do all that on my terms when I feel a pleasure in touching and kissing. And this may not happen on a first or second date. But the only fact that I agree to the second date means that I'm interested. How much? I don't know yet, it may die or turn into something big.
But, according to Dr.Love, there will be no second date.


Posted by: parasionok

RobOhio,

thanks for answering my question... As for

Quote:
It seems you have an issue with reading comprehension.


It is a Russian meeting place... If you keep accusing me of not being able to understand English (or anything at all) and having an IQ of a cow (oops, again I am twisting your words, sorry), then speak Russian to me... It is a RUSSIAN meeting place after all. I am a native Russian speaker and yes, I might have severe problems understanding Engish. And I appreciate that you explained things to me, but I would have loved if you did it without constantly pointing out how stupid I am.

Para


Posted by: rob_we

RobOhio

Quote:
On a first date a man is engaging, polite, funny, considerate and behaves like a gentleman at ALL TIMES. He also keeps his hands to himself regardless of what the woman does. If there is any physical contact he allows the woman to make it and KEEPS HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF. He shows self control. He watches how the woman BEHAVES. Is she an active participant in the conversation. Is she asking questions to keep the conversation going. Does she laugh at his jokes (lame as they may be) Does she smile a lot. Is she maintaining a lot of eye contact and smiling. If most of this is not happening what she is non verbally communicating is disinterest. If she is sitting across from you is she said to be closed (assuming it is not cold) She will have crossed arms and legs and be leaning back in the chair. Little or no eye contact. Forced smile or no smile. Forced laughter or no laughter at comedic efforts. No physical contact. Short non responsive interaction in casual conversation. No attempt at continued conversation by her. Few or no questions asked by her.


äääähm,

I mean don´t you think that you go quite far now? No offence and maybe your personal "Knigge" works for you. Thats ok.
But don´t you think its getting a little far if you tell us all here how a date has to be "correctly "processed"

Dear Rob, I was out with quite a lot girls, and every date was different, because the girls were. There is no rule in behaviour at all, because it totally depends with WHOM you are with!
For some girls your example might be ok, for others not!
Actually if we talk about not understanding each other its always a two sided issue... you know, I personally think that you have some points with SOME girls, but not with ALL. We are all human beings and we are all unique. To be natural means to be able to respond, not follow some self-made Dr. Lovequette, even if its very nice and polite, what you said and said you would do! But it reminds me to the military, and how you are tought there to walk.... just wouldn´t give me enough free space...
Maybe this is one of the reasons why I dont like it !(the military and to be pressed into certain pattern)


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
RobOhio



äääähm,

I mean don´t you think that you go quite far now? No offence and maybe your personal "Knigge" works for you. Thats ok.
But don´t you think its getting a little far if you tell us all here how a date has to be "correctly "processed"

Dear Rob, I was out with quite a lot girls, and every date was different, because the girls were. There is no rule in behaviour at all, because it totally depends with WHOM you are with!
For some girls your example might be ok, for others not!
Actually if we talk about not understanding each other its always a two sided issue... you know, I personally think that you have some points with SOME girls, but not with ALL. We are all human beings and we are all unique. To be natural means to be able to respond, not follow some self-made etiquette, even if its very nice and polite, what you said and said you would do! But it reminds me to the military, and how you are tought there to walk.... just wouldn´t give me enough free space...
Maybe this is one of the reasons why I dont like it !



Holy crow.... do you read a post in its entirety?

What was this post in response to Rob? Lemme help you since you seemed to miss it.....

Quote:
James, RobOhio,

then tell me guys, what a woman should do? YOu say, if she wants to stay with you and tells you "I love you" during her 2 weeks staying with a guy, she should be dumped. If she is not hugging and kissing you during the first, second or third date, whatever, then she should be dumpedas well...

Then what should she do?


Try keeping your commentary on target in light of the response please.


Posted by: parasionok

Quote:
Try keeping your commentary on target in light of the response please.


RobOhio,

now you really convienced me that I have a sever reading and comprehension disability.... I don't understand at all what you are trying to say here....


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
RobOhio,

thanks for answering my question... As for



It is a Russian meeting place... If you keep accusing me of not being able to understand English (or anything at all) and having an IQ of a cow (oops, again I am twisting your words, sorry), then speak Russian to me... It is a RUSSIAN meeting place after all. I am a native Russian speaker and yes, I might have severe problems understanding Engish. And I appreciate that you explained things to me, but I would have loved if you did it without constantly pointing out how stupid I am.

Para

I gave you a detailed response to your sarcastic question and this is what you come back with? My issue with you is you assulte me verbally, totally mis represent what I wrote. You go so far as to flat out change what I said and distort it to fit your preconcieved notions.

Please direct me in this thread where I have called you a cow, insulted your intellegence or anything of the ilk. I said you seem to have a reading comprhension problem because you consistently mis represpent and totally distort what is said. If you DONT have a reading comprehension problem then you have a character flaw.

I do not misrepresent what you say. In fact, what I do, to be perfectly clear is CUT AND PASTE your quote so that there is no confusion about what YOU WROTE. Why do you find it necessary to distort what someone says simply because you dont agree with them?


Posted by: rob_we

Robohio
please enlighten me too... Im all ears....

I referred to you post "how to behave, and how a woman is in general, and espeacially under the aspect of her being a "human being"!
Line 13-18


Posted by: parasionok

RobOhio,

I don't what to post your previous messages here, I already forgot what you told me long time ago and of course you were just reacting to my posts that offended you. I don't think I am insulting you personally, I just disagree with certain things you say, and I did not mean to be sarcastic, I really asked you what you thought how a woman should behave . I am trying to learn here as many people do... Not only about different cultures, but also English language. Again, I deeply appologise if anything in my posts insulted you. I hope you accept it....

Btw, I think you make excellent points in your posts, but I normally discuss what I have a different oppinion about.

I just asked you not to show me every time you respond how stupid I am... I might develop an inferiority complex you know....


Posted by: rob_we

Robohio
mhmm I think I try to talk about things. I dont think I said anything too provocant (maybe exept the answer to your "lecture" how to read your post)! I think I understood your lines and, to help you to see what Im talking about, I quoted it!?
Actually I answered, and I don´t agree...
Why do you think this is a reason to act like a teacher with a stupid kid....?
If I start to be sarcastic, im mean really(!) than everybody screams Im not able to communicate... but look at your posts and see for yourself... Rob Im a grown up and I have my opinion, ...and I have no problem to be sarcastic either.... but it seems some others here have, so lets all try to stay calm


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by davis
May be just for fun when I was 17. But it didn't mean I was interested.
And no, I wouldn't kiss a stranger on the mouth.
Now, your long explanation and quotation from Dr.Love may somewhat be reasonable for an American woman. Not for Russian.
As a matter of fact I still hate that American habbit to hold hands with anyone I went for a date with.
I also hate the habit to kiss everybody. Very often you can watch enemies putting a smile on the face and kising each other when they meet. Fake smiles, fake kisses, fake holding hands.
I'd rather do all that on my terms when I feel a pleasure in touching and kissing. And this may not happen on a first or second date. But the only fact that I agree to the second date means that I'm interested. How much? I don't know yet, it may die or turn into something big.
But, according to Dr.Love, there will be no second date.


Davis....

DocLove would not advocate a man even trying to hold hands with anyone you went out for a date with. My gosh do you people bother to read what I wrote???????? I clearly and SEVERAL TIMES stated, that a man KEEPS HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF on the first date!

It would largely depend on weither the man thought you were attracted to him. The so called "kiss close" is used when a guy isnt sure if the woman he is with is genuinely attracted to him or not. I keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over.... some of you simply are not willing to read the words. The goal of the approach advocated by a few of us is simply to FIND A WOMAN WHO HAS A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF ATTRACTION at the outset!!!!!!!!!!

Am I being CLEAR?

Given your response Davis No, a guy using this approach to finding someone would not ask you out on a second date unless he was sure that you were very attracted to him. However if a man was sure you were very attracted and very interested in him during the date he wouldnt need or likely try to kiss you at the end of the date.

I did not try to kiss Natalya on our first date.... I didnt have to. I KNEW she was very attracted. I have found someone that I am going back in November to spend time with. I believe I may have found someone and I have followed this approach it has saved me from heart ache big time. I have a tendency to give my heart away too easily this has forced me to be disciplined and take things slowly. I has kept me from chasing women who were not that interested.... more importantly, it has led me to discover someone who is very attracted to me, who seems to have a wonderful personality, posses integrity, is a giver by nature, is flexible, and is truthful.

You all do your own thing......


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
RobOhio,

now you really convienced me that I have a sever reading and comprehension disability.... I don't understand at all what you are trying to say here....


That post was in response to Rob_we's post (Try keeping your commentary on target in light of the response please.) not you.


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
RobOhio,

thanks for answering my question... As for



It is a Russian meeting place... If you keep accusing me of not being able to understand English (or anything at all) and having an IQ of a cow (oops, again I am twisting your words, sorry), then speak Russian to me... It is a RUSSIAN meeting place after all. I am a native Russian speaker and yes, I might have severe problems understanding Engish. And I appreciate that you explained things to me, but I would have loved if you did it without constantly pointing out how stupid I am.

Para


Xrjushka, here is the brightest example of what I've been saying before.
You do speak and write good English, but yet you and RobOhio are having "misunderstanding".
Now imagine a girl hardly able to say several words in English, much less to understand American slang, but everything she says is scrutinised and interpreted by Dr.Love and followers.
The verdict is in. Advise is given(dump her). No appeal.


Posted by: rob_we

Robohio,
not sarcastic, very honestly now. Would you want your Natalia to read all you or James or LLoyd wrote about women ,or russian women here? Did you tell her that you intend to check if she is honest, if you get uncertain. Again this is non sarcastic no accuse.Im just asking, ...maybe she has no problem with it, but I know a lot wonderful russian ladies who would have...
btw. I wish you all the luck with your Natalia ... and that comes from the heart...


Posted by: rob_we

ähhh guys,

can a stupid european get an idea of

"WHO THE HELL IS DR. LOVE?" Is this someone who writes books about how to behave with girls????

Just curious...






Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
ähhh guys,

can a stupid european get an idea of

"WHO THE HELL IS DR. LOVE?" Is this someone who writes books about how to behave with girls????

Just curious...







First off... its DOCLOVE. Not Dr. Love lol He writes for Mens Health. He is a relationship expert writing to men, about men and how to attract, court and have a life long happy relationship with a woman. His general thesis is that men have very poor role models in the area of how to attract, court and maintain a relationship with a woman. If you want to read is stuff its all over the web if you look for it.

Rob_we. I would have no problem with any woman reading what I wrote. You are implying that I have some sort of derogitory view of women and that I have advocated spying on women. I want you to CLEARLY point out where I have said anything derogitory about women. I have infact done the opposite.

I wrote a detailed response in the thread "How would the Russian/Ukrainian/Moldavian women react?"


You tell me Rob.... how would a woman react to a man who acts like a perfect gentleman on a first date? A man who acts with respect, keeps himself under control by keeping his hands to himself... who is engaging, funny, considerate and keeps his attention on her?

You tell me how a woman reacts to a man who :

Has a full life with friends and hobbies. Who cares about himself enought to be in excellent physical condition, has a healthy diet and exercises so his body looks as good as it can. Whose grooming habits are exceptional. His clothes are are clean and reasonalbly in fashion. He has a clean home and it is a comfortable place that a woman can enjoy spending time in becuase it is clean, orderly and not offensive.

You tell me how a woman would react to a man who is so secure in who he is that he doesnt need someone (a woman) to fill the void in his life so he projects confidence, self assurdness, has a clear and decisive direction that he is headed in life. He welcomes the woman who is has the character traits important to him for a life mate.

I have tried repeatedly to communicate this position and repeatedly my responses are distorted, twisted and turned into things I never said.

For the LAST TIME I have steadfastly said that I PERSONALLY would not advocate spying....I can see why some people do it (news flash men AND WOMEN do it)

Rob, I cant think of ANY reason any woman wouldnt find the kind of man I just discribed as HIGHLY desirable. So YOU BET I wouldnt have a problem with Natalya reading my views of dating and courting a woman. Frankly you seem to be confused between my courtship methodology and transposing that into some sort of negative view you think I have about women.


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
Davis....

DocLove would not advocate a man even trying to hold hands with anyone you went out for a date with. My gosh do you people bother to read what I wrote???????? I clearly and SEVERAL TIMES stated, that a man KEEPS HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF on the first date!

It would largely depend on weither the man thought you were attracted to him. The so called "kiss close" is used when a guy isnt sure if the woman he is with is genuinely attracted to him or not. I keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over.... some of you simply are not willing to read the words. The goal of the approach advocated by a few of us is simply to FIND A WOMAN WHO HAS A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF ATTRACTION at the outset!!!!!!!!!!

Am I being CLEAR?

Given your response Davis No, a guy using this approach to finding someone would not ask you out on a second date unless he was sure that you were very attracted to him. However if a man was sure you were very attracted and very interested in him during the date he wouldnt need or likely try to kiss you at the end of the date.


You all do your own thing......



I must be another one with that problem, what was the word?
Something complicated... a-a-a-a.. c-o-m-p-r-e-h-e-n-t-i-o-n.
Is my spelling OK? Thank you.

I do READ what you write, this might be my IQ slipped a couple of levels down. At least, I have a company here.
And if you read what I wrote, you might realise that we came to the same problem I started with- interpretation, something very subjective based on your mentality, style of life and your personal abilities and perception.
And what makes you a big interpretor of foreign women? Or any woman for that matter?
And what makes you so highly attractive on the first date? (I hope you are not James Bond).
And how do your determind "highly attracted"? By a hot kiss?
Don't you think that it takes a little more than a cup of coffee to be attracted to another human being?
Do you know that Russian women tend not to show their feelings from the start, and not to show their emotions on public? And Americans mainly do not care for such details.
On the other hand every woman is capable to "play attraction".
So, if as a result of your "mind and heart reading" I don't get the second date with you, guess who is at loss?

I'm glad you found someone special for yourself. Other Dr.Love students may kep fishing.


Posted by: davis

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
[B]

Rob_we. I would have no problem with any woman reading what I wrote. You are implying that I have some sort of derogitory view of women and that I have advocated spying on women. I want you to CLEARLY point out where I have said anything derogitory about women. I have infact done the opposite.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing derogitory. Only cold and sober evaluation of the degree of attraction while kissing her. Insulting for many.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You tell me Rob.... how would a woman react to a man who acts like a perfect gentleman on a first date? A man who acts with respect, keeps himself under control by keeping his hands to himself... who is engaging, funny, considerate and keeps his attention on her?

You tell me how a woman reacts to a man who :

Has a full life with friends and hobbies. Who cares about himself enought to be in excellent physical condition, has a healthy diet and exercises so his body looks as good as it can. Whose grooming habits are exceptional. His clothes are are clean and reasonalbly in fashion. He has a clean home and it is a comfortable place that a woman can enjoy spending time in becuase it is clean, orderly and not offensive.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of the above is just a regular condition of a human being. This is NORMAL. You don't have to expect a reaction. Depends, though, who you compare yourself with.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You tell me how a woman would react to a man who is so secure in who he is that he doesnt need someone (a woman) to fill the void in his life so he projects confidence, self assurdness, has a clear and decisive direction that he is headed in life. He welcomes the woman who is has the character traits important to him for a life mate.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there is no emotional or any other void in your life that a woman could fill, why do you need her? For f...? Sorry..
Life mate is like a business partner?
What about love? Feelings?
I'm, probably, very old fashioned, still believe that there is a woman behind every great man.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Posted by: parasionok

Davis,

I was trying to start a thread. Communication. How do you guys do it?

http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...=&threadid=3047

but there was not much said about real misundersatndings or "reading disabilities". Some people date girls who hardly speak any English and those guys dont speak any russian or very basic russian.

It seems to work out though. As for myself, if I start to communicate on a BOO MOO level, maybe then I will be understood better... or at least not being disqualified as a life-partner and doomed to be a spinster for years to come

Xrijushka


Posted by: rob_we

RobOhio
Calm down Tiger

Quote:
You tell me Rob.... how would a woman react to a man who acts like a perfect gentleman on a first date? A man who acts with respect, keeps himself under control by keeping his hands to himself... who is engaging, funny, considerate and keeps his attention on her?


My last post was about that this might vary. With some girls, at least that I was with, (I refer now to the qoute in my last post, about detailed behavior on first date) this would be wrong.
Some girls wanted me to be active, touch her, (Hands, maybe go even further...) They would not have understood, if I wouldnt have "attacked her in a way". Some girls didnt even smile at me on the first date. With some girls I dated in her or my appartment at the first date, or we "ended up" somwehere together. It depends so much on the woman. Its nor about forcing things, but to get my beauty (she IS russian! as you know ) , it was totally different again. So all i want to say is, that I do not think there is a recipie to attract a woman, besides some basic hygiene of course , some manners (like dont eat spaghetti bolognese with your hands ) and a ton of trying to be as natural
and responsive as possible... worked for me...


Quote:
For the LAST TIME I have steadfastly said that I PERSONALLY would not advocate spying....I can see why some people do it (news flash men AND WOMEN do it)


Good I got that now. Wasn´t really clear to me before...

Quote:
Frankly you seem to be confused between my courtship methodology and transposing that into some sort of negative view you think I have about women.


Again, calm dowm Tiger

Not at all. I was just not aware of the fact that there is a kind of "etiquette" published in US. We do not have something like this here, so I was not aware of the fact that you citated.
All I have is my manners, (how I was raised by my parents basically) and experiences what was good and what not...
So I was a little surprised about the fact that there is an existing and used behavior "knigge" all over the us...
It would not change my opinion about it, but i can understand that some (including you) use it, and why not? ...if it works for you?...


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
Davis,

I was trying to start a thread. Communication. How do you guys do it?

http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...=&threadid=3047

but there was not much said about real misundersatndings or "reading disabilities". Some people date girls who hardly speak any English and those guys dont speak any russian or very basic russian.

It seems to work out though. As for myself, if I start to communicate on a BOO MOO level, maybe then I will be understood better... or at least not being disqualified as a life-partner and doomed to be a spinster for years to come


Don't worry, I was disqualified for a second date, never mind a life partner. Still alive.
Yes, there is a lot of miscommunication, but sometimes it works anyway. That is where upbringing means a lot. But it is still tuff.

Xrijushka



Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
Davis....

DocLove would not advocate a man even trying to hold hands with anyone you went out for a date with. My gosh do you people bother to read what I wrote???????? I clearly and SEVERAL TIMES stated, that a man KEEPS HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF on the first date!


If your reader's first reaction is to be right and win the argument than they only comprehend what they want to comprehend and takes bits and pieces to satisfy that need.

Just remember Rob, there are many lurkers on here who pick up on your information and stories and learn a lot from them, myself included.

And remember, if she went out with Brad Pitt or Mel Gibson, she'd be thrilled to kiss him at the end of the date, especially if he acted like a gentleman and she had a wonderful time on the date.

James


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by James Riske
If

And remember, if she went out with Brad Pitt or Mel Gibson, she'd be thrilled to kiss him at the end of the date, especially if he acted like a gentleman and she had a wonderful time on the date.

James



WRONG!!!
I'd be twice more careful and distant with a guy who is used to attention.
I just don't trust them.


Posted by: parasionok

James,

Quote:
And remember, if she went out with Brad Pitt or Mel Gibson, she'd be thrilled to kiss him at the end of the date, especially if he acted like a gentleman and she had a wonderful time on the date.


wrong wrong wrong, I was dating an actor in russia, he was not extremely a superstar but he is very famous...He is getting more and more prominent in Russia recently, and appears on the screen every day on every TV channel... It took me some time to kiss him for the first time, and then the realtionship was not developed in the right way... He is more a Banderas type of a guy... We met in a metro in Moscow... I was waiting for my train, it was a midnight, he was waiting for his train... He waved his hand while the doors of his carriage were closing, I waved back... He jumped out of the train, came to me, we were talking sitting in Lubianka metro station for 2 hours... I never kissed him though I knew who he was. He wrote his phone number on my palm... I never called back.. half a year after, I bumped into him in The major promade street in Nizhni Novgorod (400 kms from moscow?)... We were just shocked to see each other again... He said: it is destiny... We spent wonderful time with the crew of his movie team on the boat, and we continued seeing each other... took us ages to come to the point when we were questioning what we should do...

But even though he was THE Banderas of Russa I didnt kiss him on the first date, on the second or the third date... My bf can verify my story if needed... I met lots of famous people who never attracted me: either on the first date or the second or the third... Even though I met them while already being together with my bf and being asked out by famous people, I didnt do it... I love my sweet monster and he is the best that ever happened to me in my whole life....


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
I was dating an actor in russia, he was not extremely a superstar but he is very famous...He is getting more and more prominent in Russia recently, and appears on the screen every day on every TV channel...


Ah, parasionok, just don't tell me it was Dmitry Nagiev



Anyway, I obviously have no experience dating women, but as a woman who has dated men, I must say I think DocLove is a load of It's the same as women following "The Rules," which I also consider silly and based on the concept of essentially playing a game with "rules" that must be followed or you are destined to die old and alone. Sure, some may see a relationship as a sort of game, but I don't.

Same with DocLove and this whole "low interest/high interest" and "kiss close." I don't doubt that this system works very well for some people, but I think if everyone tried to follow it, there would be even more lonely, unhappy people in the world than there are now

If I were to analyze my behavior on dates according to DocLove, it is simply amazing that any guy ever even called me back! If my now husband followed the DocLove system, he would surely have dumped me long ago. Or I would have dumped him. And yet we're VERY happily married!

So while it may work for some people, I would strongly caution that such a "system" does NOT work for everyone and shouldn't be taken as relationship gospel.

Just my


Posted by: davis

Totally agree with Jill and baby-piggy.


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill
Ah, parasionok, just don't tell me it was Dmitry Nagiev



Anyway, I obviously have no experience dating women, but as a woman who has dated men, I must say I think DocLove is a load of It's the same as women following "The Rules," which I also consider silly and based on the concept of essentially playing a game with "rules" that must be followed or you are destined to die old and alone. Sure, some may see a relationship as a sort of game, but I don't.

Same with DocLove and this whole "low interest/high interest" and "kiss close." I don't doubt that this system works very well for some people, but I think if everyone tried to follow it, there would be even more lonely, unhappy people in the world than there are now

If I were to analyze my behavior on dates according to DocLove, it is simply amazing that any guy ever even called me back! If my now husband followed the DocLove system, he would surely have dumped me long ago. Or I would have dumped him. And yet we're VERY happily married!

So while it may work for some people, I would strongly caution that such a "system" does NOT work for everyone and shouldn't be taken as relationship gospel.

Just my



You your self profess that you know very little abotu dating women yet, you are more than happy to tell us how wrong, ignorant and stupid and how much DocLove is full of crap.

Tell me Jill have you actually READ DocLove? I suspect not.... shows an extreme charater flaw to tell someone that something is bunk when they havent even bothered to read the underlying principles.


I suppose you will tell us next that the laws of behavioral communication are wrong that all of the body of research is wrong about non verbal cues right? I mean you're this great expert right?

I bet you dont even have the vaguest clue as to what behavior communication is, how it applies to human interaction, attraction and courting..

In your reality, the world is still flat Jill! If you KNEW what you were talking about you wuold also understand that the approach isnt about RULES. Its about how behavior effects a relationship.

Dont argue with me.... argue with behavioral science..... after all, YOU KNOW right?

I should have never bothered trying to explain this on a lay level. Too many of you think you know what you're talking about and havent the vaugest clue about behavioral communication and behavioral psychology. Thats where ALL of this is rooted.

But hey, you know more than the volumes of published research right?

Im done with this topic.

The good book is right.... dont cast your pearls before swine!


Posted by: Jill

Wow..Why so defensive?????

I actually have read DocLove's columns on askmen.com. I have not purchased his "system," but from what I have read of his relationship philosophy, I very much disagree. No, as you point out (and I pointed out), I have never dated women, but I have been in a number man-woman relationships. I was the woman

And, as I said, if my husband had used DocLove's system, he would have dumped me a long time ago. You see, I showed "low interest" during our first few dates. Fortunately, my husband has never heard of DocLove and therefore pursued matters in his own way. The result? We're happily married now

So my point was that the "system" does not ALWAYS work for everyone. That's all. No attack on anyone or their beliefs.

I disagree with him based on my experiences as woman. He analyzes women's behavior and signals, and I have the ability to analyze my own behavior and signals. I know myself better than DocLove knows me.


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by RobOhioGuy
You your self profess that you know very little abotu dating women yet, you are more than happy to tell us how wrong, ignorant and stupid and how much DocLove is full of crap.

Tell me Jill have you actually READ DocLove? I suspect not.... shows an extreme charater flaw to tell someone that something is bunk when they havent even bothered to read the underlying principles.


I suppose you will tell us next that the laws of behavioral communication are wrong that all of the body of research is wrong about non verbal cues right? I mean you're this great expert right?

I bet you dont even have the vaguest clue as to what behavior communication is, how it applies to human interaction, attraction and courting..

In your reality, the world is still flat Jill! If you KNEW what you were talking about you wuold also understand that the approach isnt about RULES. Its about how behavior effects a relationship.

Dont argue with me.... argue with behavioral science..... after all, YOU KNOW right?

I should have never bothered trying to explain this on a lay level. Too many of you think you know what you're talking about and havent the vaugest clue about behavioral communication and behavioral psychology. Thats where ALL of this is rooted.

But hey, you know more than the volumes of published research right?

Im done with this topic.

The good book is right.... dont cast your pearls before swine!



This is funny!
Even though Jill already answered, I couldn't pass it.
In fact, you are trying to tell us (women) that your and DocLove evaluation of our emotions is more important than what we know about our feelings.
Behavioral psychology was never a precise science, it has no strict rules, as everyone is different.
And the fact that you admire DocLove doesn't make him (or you) a perl, and us (who disagree) pigs.
Obviously, there is a problem with behavioural communication.


Posted by: davis

DARREN, where are you?
You started it all!
At least, tell us what's going on with you?


Posted by: Vyesna

You know, I think one of the reasons things have worked out between my husband and I is because any typical relationship analysis applied to us would go haywire, so there's no point in engaging in it and we live happily actually communicating what we think rather than trying to guess based on someone's "system".

I agree with Parasionok on the actor thing. Personally I think Brad Pitt is repulsive and I would be extremely hesitant to date anyone in the entertainment business-- that includes the minions as well as the stars.


Posted by: rob_we

Robohio

Quote:
In your reality, the world is still flat Jill! If you KNEW what you were talking about you wuold also understand that the approach isnt about RULES. Its about how behavior effects a relationship.

Dont argue with me.... argue with behavioral science..... after all, YOU KNOW right?


Again calm down Tiger ....

I haven´t read anything of DocLove then what you posted so I can´t speak for the rest, but as I said too, I don´t believe that it works with all women. At least we found two already who say it wouldn´t work with them.

Rob please don´t forget that those "partisans" ARE girls
So you should believe them if they say THEY do not agree. A universal theory proofes itself by being universal, not by negating all parts (girls in this case) that don´t fit...
In the end it is about (as I understood it) a guide how to behave with women... (at least what I read from your posts maybe much more I don´t know!)

But see, If a woman seems not to respond as she should (according to your book) it doesn´t make her an idiot or a "swine" ...!

If someone could explain and describe the wishes, needs and the behaviour of women globally and fully, he will definitely get the nobelprice in more then one discipline...

And even if it would be possible, what I would deny (I think you could write bookS about every single one of them ) but he would somehow manage it, then it would be definitely the thickest book ever written, and its formulas how to behave right would be more complex then the superstringtheories...


Posted by: Jill

Just curious: is DocLove actually a doctor of anything?


Posted by: Keystone

Quote:
Originally posted by darren_v
Hey folks, first thank you so much for the VERY helpful advice you've given me. I'm not going to install any key or phone bugs as I don't believe that's a good basis for trust, and I have some very good reasons for placing trust in her (believe me, I've been doubtful and suspicious of her motives before but my fears have subsided). I know she has this job because I've seen her business card, and her emails all bear the same signature markings (not to mention, her email has the suffix of the company). Additionally, I've personally written and received responses from her friends, two of whom have American husbands, so I know she is genuine there. Finally, we didn't exactly fall in love over two weeks. We've been writing and calling each other for over six months and have shared quite a few of our thoughts and feelings. I really do love her.

Anyway, I will look into the H1-B visa and the possibility of her staying longer. Her tourist visa expires in August of 05, and she can come back at any time before then, and each visit can last up to 6 months. She told them last time she was on vacation for two weeks, so it would make sense for her to return home this Monday (when her two weeks are up), if for no other reason then to return to work and not lose her current job! However, that doesn't give us a whole lot of time to explore options while she is here. With that said, does anyone have any recommendations for maximizing what little time she has left (basically one working day and a weekend?) Should she speak to schools, the Russian embassy, immigration office, or should she do nothing, have fun with me, and do it all from home? She CAN return, and she has plans to do this with my later this year or early next year, so it may make sense for us to just wait until then... but if anyone has any other suggestions, I'd certainly welcome them.

Again, THANK YOU all for your great help!

Darren_v


I would say that Darren_v got his question answered on page 1 of this thread. He does welcome more suggestions and people have given thier advice and opinions.

Quote from davis

DARREN, where are you?
You started it all!
At least, tell us what's going on with you?
---------------------------------------------------
IMHO he has been swept away by all of this bickering and dissension.

Keystone


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by Keystone


Quote from davis

DARREN, where are you?
You started it all!
At least, tell us what's going on with you?
---------------------------------------------------
IMHO he has been swept away by all of this bickering and dissension.

Keystone


It wasn't desined as bickering. We have totally opposing position, and it was supposed to be a healthy argument. Not everybody though is capable to hold a good argument. I can only guess what a reaction would be if a future wife dares to have a different opinion. You don't need a science to predict that.


Posted by: Keystone

Quote:
Originally posted by davis
It wasn't desined as bickering. We have totally opposing position, and it was supposed to be a healthy argument. Not everybody though is capable to hold a good argument. I can only guess what a reaction would be if a future wife dares to have a different opinion. You don't need a science to predict that.


It just seams that lately the discussions here quickly become he said this or she said that. Or she meant this or he meant that. I will not take your possible statement of how I will react to my future wifes "different" opinion as an attack on me as you do not know me or her. Everyone can have an opinion and express it.

Keystone
Make a great day


Posted by: davis

Quote:
Originally posted by Keystone
It just seams that lately the discussions here quickly become he said this or she said that. Or she meant this or he meant that. I will not take your possible statement of how I will react to my future wifes "different" opinion as an attack on me as you do not know me or her. Everyone can have an opinion and express it.

Keystone
Make a great day


That was exacly my point.
I didn't mean you. I meant people who do not properly react on somebody elses opposing opinion.
Frankly, I think this topic is dead.


Posted by: Keystone

I agree also.

Keystone


Posted by: eireannach

Quote:
Originally posted by darren_v
Hello out there, I'm 33yo living in the Wash. DC area. I met a 30yo Russian woman on an American dating site some six months ago and we started speaking about the possibility of meeting. Since then, she has come to visit for a two week vacation that is ending this weekend, and things have been going very well for us - we are both in love with each other. However, yesterday evening she indicated that she would like to stay with me and not return to Russia, which means leaving her job in Moscow and leaving her country and family behind! She works for an American insurance group in Moscow, so we are looking into the possibility of her getting a work VISA and transferring her job if this is possible. What should I do? How should I progress with this? I really have two problems - risking that her love isn't genuine (I believe over the past two weeks of being with her that it is) and also that we might not be able to make any of this work. Please, if someone would offer their advice I would greatly appreciate it, thank you! If you'd like me to provide any qualifying information about our relationship I will be happy to do so.

Darren_v


(This is to everyone else.)
Interesting how a simple request for advice turned into a virtual free-for-all. I wouldn't doubt that as soon as the flaming began, the poor guy bugged out.

(This is to Darren_v, if you're still around after all of this.)
My suggestions to you, from what I've learned are based on the following:

1) You met at least six (6) months ago.
2) You never mentioned anything about having sent her any
money during this time, so let's just assume that you haven't
for the time being.
3) Your female friend from Moscow apparently came here using
her own money, taking time off from her job to come and visit
you.
4) For two weeks you got to finally be together after
corresponding and (most likely) talking on the telephone for
six (6) months or so, and you say that you both are in love
with each other. Sounds cool to me so far.
5) You female friend now says that she would like to stay with
you and not return home at the end of her two week vacation.

I would say, that if you have not been to her country, then
perhaps it would be wise for her to go back at the end of her
vacation and then you arrange time to go to her country and visit
her there for a while. Get to meet her family, friends, and have
her show you around. At the end of your visit, if everything still
seems groovy between the two of you and she still wants to be
with you here in the States, then explore your options. Maybe
she might be able to make a second trip back over here before
her visa expires. If all is still well and good between you, and if
you feel certain that "she's the one", then propose if that is
where your heart takes you. If she accepts, then the other
things will have to be arranged: fiancee visa, wedding plans, etc.

If either one of you have doubts or concerns, then by all means
talk about them until there are no more doubts or all concerns
have been answered to the satisfaction of both. Listen equally
with BOTH your head and your heart. One can live their entire
life with a person and still never know everything there is to know about them. That also includes oneself (meaning that even
at the end of one's days, one still may not know everything about
oneself because one has not been tested against every
possibility).

Life is about how you live it, not about what you end up with at
the end of it. Sometimes, life requires may require us to have
faith...to make an empty handed leap into the void. Trust in
yourself, lad. I wish the two of you well in the life that is before
you.

...Do let us know how things turn out, okay?


Posted by: darren_v

Hey folks, I'm still here - though as Keystone suggested I have been a bit taken aback by all the vitriol of late. I think there is still some genuine interest in how things are going between us, so I'll fill you in on the latest:

My Russian girlfriend left for Moscow on Monday evening, and believe me it was hard for both of us to say goodbye. I know some of you have cast your doubts as to the sincerity of our love, but I have a few things to say about that. First, I'm giving you all a very abridged version of how things have been going between us over the past six months. We've exchanged emails that amount to pages in length *every day* that take us both at least an hour to write each one. During those emails we've exchanged an overwhelming amount of information on our personal feelings about life, our families, our daily thoughts, our beliefs, etc. Additionally, we've used Skype (highly recommended if you haven't tried it - www.skype.com - clear as a normal phone) to chat verbally with each other 2-3 times a week. Though we never spoke of love or even much intimacy before meeting, afterwards I think it was natural for us to fall in love as quickly as we have.

Regarding her feelings towards ME, at this point I can say with about 95% confidence that she is sincere in what she tells me. The other 5% comes from reading numerous accounts of people who have been "victimized" by women looking for green cards. And believe me folks, I was more than a little cautious before she arrived here, to the point where my friends were telling me I shouldn't be so skeptical. I looked for every possible sign of disinterest, including all those things you've talked about in this thread - poor eye contact, little interest in conversation, little interest in physical intimacy, etc. In my estimation, disinterest is not something you can easily hide, so if she really is scamming me, she has to be the best con artist I've ever met. Clues: while driving in my car, she reached for my hand every time (without my offering). Total eye contact every time we spoke with each other, no matter what the subject. She cried whenever thinking about leaving. She had no problem publicly displaying her affection for me. She told me many times she liked my smile, and is proud of who I am as a person. When I suggested that I move to Russia to live with her (not such a farfetched notion if you know me as she does), she welcomed it without hesitation. I had her meet several of my friends, all of whom saw us interact and think she is sincere. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

My main concern at this point has more to do with the unfortunate socialization that I understand happens to some people after they live here in the US after a while. I've heard through various other first- and second-hand sources that many women from other parts of the world change dramatically after moving here and being exposed to our (pardon the hyperbole) poisonous culture. One of the reasons I am so in love with her is that I believe she is so unique, somone with a personality that I believe I could not find in many American women here. I am afraid that she may change, or she might somehow be swayed by our cultural thinking to find someone else who more closely fits the bill for the way a "real man" in America should be. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions, but I'd really like to know just how often this happens to American men who fall in love with East European women. Anyone care to comment here?

One more thing - she is now working on an "L1" Visa rather than an "H1-B" as I guess that's the one necessary for a job transfer. Recall that she is trying to stay with her current company which has an office in Moscow, but simply transfer to the US to work nearer to me. However, I understand that with that type of Visa she cannot switch companies. This is important because her current company's US office is not located conveniently near me - several hours away. If we wanted to be with each other every day, she'd have to switch companies to something closer - but with the L1, I don't think she can do that. Also, I understand the "H1-B" Visas aren't being given out anymore until 2006 for some reason. Can anyone comment on any of this? I think the work Visa is definitely a good solution, much better than marrying her now, because if she is sincere in her interest for me, she'll stick with me, even living as far away as she is. If she isn't sincere, she'll just find someone else, as any US citizen can marry her and help her with permanent residency. If it's meant to be, it's meant to be...

Thanks again to all of you for your wisdom.

Darren_v


Posted by: Vyesna

If she can get an L1, that's actually really great. It is constantly renewable and is generally less hassle than the others. H1Bs have a yearly quota (which Ls do not) which is probably why she can't get one until 2006.


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
It just seams that lately the discussions here quickly become he said this or she said that. Or she meant this or he meant that.


I have noticed this, too. A lot of tension around here recently for some reason...

Well, Darren, I'm glad you're still around and I hope you do stay around. We're not usually like this! Really!

Good luck on the L1!


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill


And, as I said, if my husband had used DocLove's system, he would have dumped me a long time ago. You see, I showed "low interest" during our first few dates. Fortunately, my husband has never heard of DocLove and therefore pursued matters in his own way. The result? We're happily married now


You know, Jill, I'm going to write this with the hope that you won't see this as hostile or starting a flame. I honestly like reading your posts and quite frankly, we need more women on here. So don't take this the wrong way, OK?

But why would you marry a man you weren't interested in? Why did you 'settle' for him?

Just as men pursue women that they really aren't interested in; why would you allow yourself to be courted by a man you weren't interested in? Are you just fickle or do you allow your mind to be changed simply by something that a man does?

I don't believe it.

I know you may say that you changed your mind or that he 'won' you or whatever but I'm just not buying it. I think you settled.

Now, don't get mad because I can understand it. I've been through poverty and hard times and know what it's like to get older so I totally understand 'settling'. But I don't think you can dispute that if anyone - man or woman - shows low interest during the first date, they should NOT be pursued by the other party.

Otherwise, the uninterested one will surely feel the pains of 'settling' approximately 7 years down the line, if you catch my drift.

By the way, most women don't believe Doc Love, but the men who are his students swear by him. The worse person to ask about dating women is women, after all.

James


Posted by: Jill

I'm not at all offended by your question. I think it is perfectly appropriate and fair.

I did not "settle" or marry a man I wasn't interested in. By the time we married, things had changed.

As I have posted elsewhere, my husband and I met over a chat--in other words, we had something of a virtual relationship before we had a "real" relationship, even though we lived all of 15 minutes away from each other. When we were chatting and writing, etc., I really had no intention of ever having a relationship with him or even meeting him. Why? I don't know. I was just passing time--I wasn't looking for a relationship.

He kept trying to convince me to meet him. It took maybe a month and a half before I ageed.

I liked him when we met, but I still wasn't particularly interested in pursuing a relationship with him. He was much more the active force--I was rather resistant. Why? I don't know exactly. Maybe several reasons: we had met over th