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Tell me how you treat a women
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Posted by: Clarita

Huh, when I read posts of some of men here on this board I wonder, if this traditional american way to treat a women? If you not like what she says, then just call her stupid, *****, and so on?
Is it possible that a man who call a woman ***** in virtual world can be good husband for some real woman?

Posted by: Lola

Quote:

Originally posted by Clarita
Is it possible that a man who call a woman ***** in virtual world can be good husband for some real woman?

Ha, they call the names even their own american women, so how can we trust them???

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by Clarita
.........I wonder, if this traditional american way to treat a women? ..........

It is not the Traditional way to treat a woman! Sadly, it is common enough to give birth to a stereotype

Much like the stereotypes about Russian men overwhelm guys from the US. All Russian men are NOT abusive alcoholics, I've met those who weren't, but when enough do something, it tends to ruin it for the rest who do treat women in a traditional way, with respect and understanding.

As you spend time on these message boards you start to be able to pick out those who should not be in this endeavour, and a select few who should not be in a relationship with ANY woman.

But you should also be able to pick out the people who "have the right stuff" to make cross-cultural marriage work.

The part I always find a little bit funny is that in the end, financial level has very little to do with success or failure of these relationships, and much more about ability to communicate, compromise, and show patience with one another. When you look at some of the interactions here (and other places on the net), the "train wrecks waiting to happen" are quite obvious - and yet, the posters can't see it themselves and will be stunned and amazed a year from now when things fall completely apart (while some on the board will not be the least bit surprised - except maybe, "What took so long?")

Posted by: ConnerVT

Some very true and observant comments, Jim. What's also noticed by those same people is how those who are/will be successful are usually bashed and beaten into no longer posting on these forums by the "crash and burn" types (just look at the beating Doug S. has been getting on another forum, where I was run off by the same poster).

Ironically, some of the most successful in this East-West endeavor are financially very humble. Over the long run, good interpersonal relation skills and a truck load of patience resolve most issues, not a few extra zeros at the end of a bank account balance.

Posted by: James Riske

Clarita,

That reminds me of one of my employees. He's a young half Mexican guy who's very outgoing and charasmatic. He has a bit of a drug problem and is on parole for stealing a car. He's been working for me for about a year and I've helped teach him the job and try to instill discipline into his life and be a sort of father figure. He has no family to speak of and I try to help ex-cons when I can and give them another chance. He comes around to our Thanksgiving and Christmas parties and is really making progress and thinking of us as a family.

But he constantly picks 'low life' (for lack of a better word) women to be his girlfriends. They are usually drug addicts on welfare and into criminal activities who do nothing to help him or encourage him and actually help ruin him by giving him drugs and talking him out of going to work so he can stay with them longer.

Finally, we thought that he found a good woman, he described her as having a job and getting angry when he drank too much and she woke him up very early to go to work, etc. During break one day, he was calling her and announced, "Shut up everybody, I'm calling my *****."

Some people laughed, some people shook their head but it was clear that she wouldn't be around long. I guess it was one of those 'train wrecks' waiting to happen that Jim talked about.

Of course, among ghetto slang, calling your woman a ***** isn't derogatory at all but how many of us live in that world?

How you regard people certainly comes out in the words you choose and that is instilled in people at a young age. Many American men are becoming so disillusioned and disenchanted by American women they are beginning to regard all women as '*****es' (American and Russian). I can't tell you how many divorce horror stories I'm hearing from my customers, it's amazing. I literally hear at least two a day now. Perhaps much of this rhetoric and bad feelings come from that.

It goes both ways too, Clarita. If I'm out with a woman and she's constantly harping on men, I give her the dump just as much as you should dump a man who refers to women as '*****es'. I don't blame you for being upset about it though, it was inappropriate.

James (NOT Lloyd)

Posted by: Khashyar

Of course, calling anyone a "b-tch" (or a "b-st-rd") is rude and shows disrespect for others, and reveals something about their personality.....

Fortunately, there are many people who are mature, kind and courteous.

I try to understand that there are many different kinds of people in an online community with different levels of social and personal maturity....

Khashyar

(by the way, if you read something in this forum that seems completely offensive and inappropriate here, then let one of the moderators know and they can edit the post....)

Posted by: rtking

Clarita,

I have to agree with what everyone has written. There is an amazing amount of tolerance that is required (for BOTH the women and the men) to make a cross cultural relationship work. To call someone names is not appropriate and shows that a person doesn't have the patience and understanding to help someone from a different culture adapt and become comfortable in new surroundings. It reminds me of the old American Indian proverb, "I will not criticize another until I have walked a mile in their mocassins..."

There are many great men and women in the world and on this board. As Jim and Conner_VT stated, sometimes they are kept from posting by others, but the moderators try very hard to keep the boards a comfortable, open, honest and friendly place to post messages.

Bob

Posted by: rob_we

clarita,
to answer this in full I think one could write a book. To treat a woman right is to my opinion quite a challenge. It actually requires more than a man, or at least I have to start with. A lifetime experience

. First of all understanding a woman, knowing how to treat her is the basic problem. And it always turms out to be as easy as walking on a wire

.
Of course how to treat "a" woman can only describe very basic things. The problem with you girls is that you are more complicated (my personal view) then men

. Because of this reason, after one has managed and understood the "open doors, care about and fill your glass issues" the show starts from here.
Im not talking about basic "respect", this should be common ground in any relationship but what comes after that. Because of the male/female role it is so easy for a man (my personal view) after becoming the protective, caring or deciding part in whatever facett of the relationship, to overlook certain things. Happens because men (my personal view) don´t or have stopped thinking about it, being so used to "decide and know whats best".
A woman is an equal part of the relationship to begin with, rich of feelings, and controverse emotions.
Sometimes absolutely ununderstandable for a guy whos basic wishes are already satisfied by his girl "just being there"!
This "every day business" a guy tends to fall back to, after a while and the "gentle way" of women to cope with this, makes
it quite easy to "forget" about things which should be important to both.
To gess the mood (fatalistic, romantic, erotic, angry, cuddly and hopefully not indifferent

) is another lifetime skill. I have the major advantage that I am together with a wonderful and passionate woman who expresses herself in a way that my blunt male mind can follow in some cases

I also know that a lot of women dont. Then its even harder. Of course if you have a biligual relationship the problems quadruple in certain issues. We know that all here. So I think what a guy can do in this kind of relationships might be described in one sentence: Don´t take ANYTHING for granted

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

I am english and live in England ( same language as american except the words mean different things )and in my familly it was always my mum who would use swear words like " b*****d"" to my dad or other words- my dad never swore back at my mother.

I think the use of the word " B***H" by men is overused and certainly no idication of whether a man is going to be a good husband or boyfriend.

I think that living in a familly where I had a controlling mother ( who still tries to controll everything , God bless her !!!) has taught me everything I need to know about anger management as I realised that one can with practice practice learn indiferrence to what others say - all I have to do is keep a clear head and realise that unless I want someone to ruin my day , I can overcome everything including bad language only when I am willing to let go of the need to control the outcome.

I think swearing is just one aspect of a controlling personality and although a generalisation , swearing is like saying - I hate life being so uncontrollable and complicated and believe me , guys and gals women are complictaed creatures who are wonderously made but sort of different interms of thier brains as well as everything else.

Another thing , is that in USA , the word " B~~~~H " is frequently a non swear word. People use it all the time .
eg " Life 's a B****h and then you die " etc.

But in russian ,men are frequently refferred to as sabaka - dog and my girlfreind calls me her puppy - should I take offence at being called a small dog with a wet nose ?

Rattle

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

Huh, when I read posts of some of men here on this board I wonder, if this traditional american way to treat a women? If you not like what she says, then just call her stupid, *****, and so on?
Is it possible that a man who call a woman ***** in virtual world can be good husband for some real woman?

This is very hard to answer because its down to the situation you are in? i feel these words are bad but in right context they are fine, if the lady has contacted another man and wants to dump you then the word ***** is fine if the lady has been drinking and killed a police man in car then stupid ***** is fine its just the way people say things.

If i said ok Clarita you see another man behind my back you very bad person but in England we would say things different not just out of culture but out of hurt but as i said it depends on the situation, if i'm upset i over someting stupid i justr say speak tommorow and then to bed.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

I'm Polish and so I treat a woman the Polish way.

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

How we treat a women well what about how women treat a man i knew my lady was talking to someone else this week and now i have proof, i broke into her account on date.com and what do i find men she told me the other day Neil i never play games and thats why i cut contact with all men so why she log on.

I was taught by a very clever Russian lady called Lana how to spot a scam and i did last week and spoke to someone that my heart was in panic.

Now i have deleted her profile from date.com and deleted her from my heart and soul and now ready to take on date.com if they want.

Perhaps to many flowers and toys to this lady but never money so now i have flight to Belarus i thought this was to good to be true with this lady but its life, this person is the first to be named and shamed www.google.com.

So my heart was in this ladies blood heart and soul and i never talked to anyone in chat rooms or on the internet so why do it to me.

Russian women spoil everything not the men my heads spinning and now have to go, the person i spoke to was right and Nataly kept telling me this week neil i'm sorry my e.mails are slow but computer keep breaking down, yes to other men now lets se what she get now i may not be articulate but my heat and soul are the most kindess on this planet now its broken again and you know the truth i don't need to see this women any more she made the mistake not me, i'm 110% honest, not like 98% of Russian Women, this time she may tell me her friend used her account like last time when we met and i gave her the benifit but not again the mens letters made my letter look like a child but do they have the true heart and soul like i do.

Franks right a Russian Lady meets a good man and they get a bee in their bonet they can do better and they start talking and this man writes the best and romantic letters going and this sways the lady.

But this proves they play games as Frank in the Ukraine said if they are talking why in a relationship its a Red Flag.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Hey Neil, how about some punctuation buddy.

Posted by: BradIL

Clarita---good topic:

There is nothing better than to have a good argument to understand how your beloved handles pressure. It serves a purpose. Would anyone be willing to marry someone if they hadn't had a strong, passionate argument with them?

As to cussing; from my mouth, NOOOOO! Bad language like that comes from my evil twin brother, and I try to keep him locked up at all times.

Yep, he's the one responsible for any bad language that sounds like its my voice, or purports to be under my i-d on this forum.

Soooo, how about those Cardinals?

Posted by: povlhp

Hi Neil,

What you have done is very childish and immature. (and illegal). Just because of jealousy.

It might be better for both of you that the relationship did not evolve any further, and that level of jealousy and reaction looks like something you need to learn to control before getting involved in a long term relationship, where the woman is mostlikely very vulnerable when she comes to the west.

Maybe the whole problem started much earlier, because she already looked through you, and was looking at other alternatives ? Maybe you were just the last way out - the guy she would pick if it did not work out with any of the others.

Sit back, cool down, rationalize. Try to learn from the experience. Reconsider if you want to pick a girl that sees a man as a way out of powerty.

Posted by: neil277

------------Original Message------------

I would like to log off. I have found my the best gentleman in the world! he is Neil from your site.
Thank you!!!!

--- End of forwarded message --

I have got to the bottom of my question and answer and this is what i got from date.com and i do not care if what i done was wrong or right i FIGHT for what i want and about being childish and immature this is wrong.

I have got down to the problem now and as i said before when trouble come's it comes in the form of a man or a women.

I'm leaving www.russianmeetingplace.com for a while as i think its the right thing to do i will still stay a member because i have unfinished business for one person as i always keep my promise.

The Goverment break into computers all the time and i have no secrets from my lady she is happy i deleted her programe.

A relationship will never work when a lady talks to strangers when in a relationship.

This lady gets on with my mum fine and is good for me so for me this is fine.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel.

I understand about what Clarita asks people on the form, but from my time in a Relationship with Russian women i have found they like to drink, smoke and use not nice words but all the Russian men i have worked with over the last 4 years NOT 1 has used a bad word in my face.

For me this is strange and i was told last year Neil Don't think Russian men are bad they are good and very beautiful people but don't have the money to surport family.

Anyone who is fooled by the poor little Russian women with puppy dogs eyes have a lot to learn they are tough and will fight to the death trust me and for the person who run down my English PLEASE we are not all perfect in this world so shame on you.

And Clarita this is not pointed at you i wish you luck in your business and hope you find Mr Right very soon.

Regards.

Neil

Posted by: searcher

Well folks, THIS IS NOT RELATIONSHIP ADVICE!

It is just a statement, an observation and commentary.

Neil,

It happens more often than you think!!!!

Just talk to MANY women. Many have told me that they have written to other men while they were in a relationship or engaged.

Why? Because often womenin Russia, etc do NOT trust men....

Even if you have proof, sometimes it is best not to mention this as your woman will be offended.

Maybe men sent you emails or photos or you saw profiles, etc... I don't know...

I know its not right and we are not accustomed to this here (England, USA, etc...) it is due to the nature of long distance dating and perhaps the enviroment created by lying men and mabye life in Russia, etc...

I know it seems like the ultimate insult but also consider what does she have that will guarantee you will marry her????

It is a completely different way of thinking than what I am used to but after listening to many women I have understood many things....

Sometimes you just have to leave things alone...

sometimes you can't look too deeply....

There is a saying,

"If you look for trouble hard enough, you will find it!"

I know the men on this forum mean well and are good men in general but that seems to be the reality of this enviroment.

Even after a woman has met you she may still be uncertain, even after she has arrived in you country she may still be uncertain...

She may not be certain until the moment you actually marry her!

I know how you feel.... i've been there!

Take a deep breath, relax... and ask your self how do you feel about this woman????

We don't know her, we never will. We will never meet her, only you have met her.

Trust your feelings (instincts) but use a little logic too... and talk to her!

Posted by: rob_we

Neil
searcher HAS a point (to my opinion).
I know we all have our pride, and sometimes we are quite vulnerable. In the end of the day we have to decide whats more important for us. Our pride or our love.

See, shes waiting every day. Shes talking to friends. All of a sudden she gets afraid, shes frustrated, because it takes such a long time, she is desperate.
In a situation like this she MAYBE logs on because she wants to talk to someone else, and ask him. (maybe a western guy)
I just put up this possibility. Thats no crime....

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

First i feel desperate is the wrong word to use anyone can find someone from the click of a button and this lady does things for me and never asks for money, (ie translation advice on what women look for etc, etc), i have told this lady please let me send money via post No Neil i don't want your money it will spoil relationship so for me this is good.

I find it hard she has to travel to Moscow for one day by bus to buy clothes for business in shop supermarket where she works, i never feel scared and never feel she is lying to me but just worry like any normal man.

I have know problems when she is out with friends or gone to disco i never worry but talking on the internet with men i will not have and i have got to the bottom of this problem i was told it was her friend and her friend write to me from America, its far fetched but i have to accept.

One i never cheat and i'm honest her friend told me Neil i log into Nats account and her friend was very rude to me via e.mail i want to reply but think its best to forget this person.

I expext people to be honest in life and talking to other men is a red flag, i was called in morning by Nata crying and telling me things, whats happened, i never log on and when i first started talking to Nata i new someone was writing for her and when i got this ladies letter the other day i new she was the one who sent first letter.

I just don't like the bit about going to Moscow, first Turkey and then Moscow last month and now Moscow again??????

I will be out their for Christmas and arive back in London January 12 2005, i will meet her mum and friends and sisters and then will see for myself.

I'm very strong minded and never scare about my trip but being honest is very important would the lady like if i was meeting her one day and meeting a lady the next day NO she would not and i expect the same.

I feel people don't understand the English we are known as a fighting race and i'm English and will fight when i have to perhaps not with fists but if i feel a problem i will nip it in the bud and put a stop to it once and for all.

I would sooner be hurt than lied to but we have talked and this ladies mum will come out with us for a few days for eats and other things and just to get to know me and how i treat her daughter.

Do i love this lady yes even if i have not met yet i feel know problem when we meet and things will be good i'm very easy to get on with and we understand each other on the phone but her friend i hope to meet because i will talk to her and will tell her in private you never talk to me like this if you are good boy i will send photo's for you what a f****** cheak.

No one talks to me like this and when i meet i will pull to the side and i will warn her keep your nose out of my life or you will see a different side to me.

I thank the panel and no hard feelings to Rob.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: FlashingEyes

Neil,

Wow. I've been following your story and it's certainly taken a couple of unexpected turns.

Here is my advice: relationships are built on trust. I know you are very proud that you are a "fighter" but fighting should be a last resort and if we start fighting before we investigated all the facts then fighting can cause a lot of damage to what would otherwise be a healthy relationship.

With that in mind, when you act hastily and start a "fight" or in your case delete someone's profile that was used not only by her but also her friend, only you didn't know it because you didn't investigate only acted, then you should be willing at least to accept whatever comes. I don't know what her friend said to you but if it was only words I think it couldn't have been beyond the realm of appropriate, in response to what you did, and the great inconvenience you caused her in disrupting her communications with men who might be very important to her, perhaps even someone she loves. So I suggest you write her friend back and apologize, admit you did something wrong, and say you hope her harsh words to you will help her to get over whatever pain you caused her. This action will go a long way to show both your girlfriend and her friend that there's a lot more to you than the type of person who would break into an account shared by two Russian girls and delete it without even first bothering to check out all the facts. I suggest when you meet, don't pull the friend aside and warn her as you are now thinking you might, but accept that she had a right to say whatever she wanted in response to your overly hasty and ultimately misdirected action.

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel.

First her friend is married to an American man and they have a daughter and Nata and myself don't have any misunderstanding, each time their has been a problem its been her friend who has caused the problem other wise Nata and myself are very good and never have communication problem or misunderstanding, Nata is my soul mate who i can walk through life with and never look back.

I have spoke to Nata and she and her mama say the same that its best the mail box has been closed down and Nata is furious to why her friend is causing the problem when she told her friend please close or delete my mail box.

This is twice her friend has caused problems even Nata's friends don't know about me only her mum and her friend and her sisters, i feel Nata has been in relationship before and when friends get to know they can cause problems and this is why i feel she keeps relationship away from her friends.

I will not send e.mail to her friend and Nataly has told me to forget the e.mail and look to the future and to our time together Christmas, which i will do but i will talk to her friend if a when we meet but i will never say sorry to her friend why should i, i never tried to break someone's relationship.

Regards.

Neil

Posted by: parasionok

Neil,

of course you should never say sorry to her firend who was trying to break the realtionship... You should say sorry to Nata for breaking in her mailbox and to post what you posted on this thread. Maybe you were following the good adivce here, but you see it is very wrong to violate the privacy of your beloved one... You are telling us now that you are in love with this woman, and I am sure things will work out for you two. Just be sure not to question her intensions anymore... You see it caused the distress and pain for her and her family... I still believe in trust. Though burnt several times (who hadnt?) I must say I would never ever try to untrude my bf's privacy... It will bring lots of pain and misfortune for both of us.

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Neil, please - how about some commas and periods, dammit.

Posted by: James Riske

Let me see if I've got the story straight.

You haven't met this woman but feel as if you are in love with her and she even has contact with your mother. You don't send her money but gifts. She told you that she has stopped corresponding with other men and is only interested in you.

Her frequent trips out of town to Turkey, Moscow, etc. gave you reason to be suspicious that she's seeing other men. And you probably had a gut feeling that something was wrong as well.

Since then, you hacked her account at the dating site and discovered that she was lying to you and corresponding with other men. In response, she tells you that it's her friend using the account and not her.

You're still going to visit her and carrying all this anger you're going to set her aside and have a stern talk with her.

Neil, it's over and you need to move on. There are so many things wrong with this situation, there's no place to even start. You should dump her simply on the fact that she lied to you about corresponding with other men. The fact that she lied is reason enough to move on. Personally, I can't stand liars and wouldn't even grace her with a reason why I disappeared after discovering a lie. (if you believe that her friend was using the box, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you real cheap).

Of course, it was wrong for you to hack into her account and it was wrong of you to develop all these feelings for someone you haven't met and make promises of exclusivity before you have even met her.......the fact that she lied to you is reason for you to dump her and the fact that you snooped on her and hacked her box is reason enough for her to dump you.

Now for those who know that I bugged my computer to catch my little 'Russian lovely" just remember that it was MY computer in MY home; that's completely different from hacking into someone's account. That's the same as looking in her purse or opening drawers in her home, completely wrong and I would never do that.

When you hacked her account, you got a glimpse of the real her. You were able to see her for what she really is and not what she wants to portray herself to other as. You busted her, plain and simple. The old 'my friend was using my account' is ridiculous Neil. You caught her. In every case that Lloyd tells me about, every time the partner or spouse makes excuses for what they have found, it hasn't worked out. Ignoring the fact that she lied to you or believing her friend lie or making excuses for her behavior that Russian women just don't trust men because men are mean therefore it's OK...is equally ridiculous.

It doesn't matter is she's uncertain or whether women are uncertain and distrustful even up to the point of marriage; she lied. Enough said. Lying to someone is disresepectful and shows a complete lack of empathy and integrity.

Dump...dump..and more dump.

And then go to Russia and meet a dozen or so women in person before you start all these email relationships that usually lead no where. Go visit a large city, register with a dating agency, and then go meet them. See them in their homes, meet their family, interact with them, etc. Stop all this 'fantasy love' nonsense over the internet and creating all this unnecessary drama. Grow up and find real love, the kind of love that starts as friendship and takes years to grow.

One thing my dad always told me (between rounds of bourbon) was, "Marry a friend. If you can marry your best friend, you'll find love."

How true.

Posted by: James Riske

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
You should say sorry to Nata for breaking in her mailbox and to post what you posted on this thread. Maybe you were following the good adivce here, but you see it is very wrong to violate the privacy of your beloved one... You are telling us now that you are in love with this woman, and I am sure things will work out for you two. Just be sure not to question her intensions anymore... You see it caused the distress and pain for her and her family... I still believe in trust. Though burnt several times (who hadnt?) I must say I would never ever try to untrude my bf's privacy... It will bring lots of pain and misfortune for both of us.

Woa! Hold on there, cowgirl!

Bugging your own computer when you have suspicions is far different than hacking someone else's account on a dating site! I feel that what he did was completely wrong and I would never do that. I don't ever recall anyone giving out the advice that one should hack someone else's account on the internet. But I do recall people on here trying to twist advice to make it seem as if that's what they were saying. You're not doing that, are you?

'Don't question her intentions anymore?" 'caused her distress and pain"? She lied to him and he caught her big time. End of story. That's all I need to know. Anything else beyond that is silly and wishful thinking. He caught her.

And if intruding on your boyfriend's privacy would cause pain and misfortune, I guess you don't trust your boyfriend very much. I can speak for myself and openly say that if anyone hacked any of my accounts or spied on me, it wouldn't cause any pain or misfortune at all because I don't lie! It's simple, just don't lie and you'll be OK and never have to put up phony fronts or remember your lies. If I'm asked a question I feel I don't want to answer, I tell people that....but I never lie.

Are you saying that if you read your boyfriend's emails and bugged his phone you would find things out that would cause pain and misfortune? You must not trust him, huh?

James

Posted by: parasionok

Quote:

Are you saying that if you read your boyfriend's emails and bugged his phone you would find things out that would cause pain and misfortune? You must not trust him, huh?

I don't think you understood at all what I was trying to say. I said that I feel it is wrong to spy on your partner, being it on your own computer or anywhere else. It doesn't make any difference to me. Can't you see that some people just do not like when their privacy is being violated no matter being it in their own house or in other houses. What I think might really cause pain and misfortune, is that by bugging my own computer and putting keyghosts or whatever, I might offend my boyfriend by showing him that I distrust him.

I have nothing to hide either, and my bf knows all my passwords and he can access any of my e.mail accounts anytime he wants... BUT he will never do it, because he respects me. If he starts doubting something, he will come and talk to me. He won't bug his phone (I am living at his place) to find out what I am up to.

It is not what I might find out by spying on somebody, it is the FACT that I am spying on somebody could ruin the relationship, trust, and hence it might cause pain.

Posted by: povlhp

I agree. The whgole problem is the distrust and spying.

Mutual trust is necessary for a relationship. And communications if you feel there is a problem.

This is something you should delay until you need evidence for a divorce.

Posted by: James Riske

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
If he starts doubting something, he will come and talk to me.

But in the case of a scammer or deceptive person, they will not talk to him, see the difference?

If someone is just having trouble with a lover that's far different than having to deal with a scammer or con artist. That's when I advocate bugging and spying, not just for matters of the heart.

Or if you read my other post, you'll see that I originally bugged someone a long time ago because the conditions were extreme.

James

Posted by: rob_we

James
every defendant facing any civilized court is seen as defendant not as an offendant because of the presumption of innocence.
I agree to you that if we would spy on anybody always, then we would probably solve more crimes...we would probably even prevent some...

But would you like to live in a country like this? I wouldnt!

And here we just talk about "the normal guy on the street" that we even don´t know.

I would not like if someone I love would not trust me without any reason. I would not want to be with someone like this...

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
I don't think you understood at all what I was trying to say. I said that I feel it is wrong to spy on your partner, being it on your own computer or anywhere else. It doesn't make any difference to me. Can't you see that some people just do not like when their privacy is being violated no matter being it in their own house or in other houses. What I think might really cause pain and misfortune, is that by bugging my own computer and putting keyghosts or whatever, I might offend my boyfriend by showing him that I distrust him.

I have nothing to hide either, and my bf knows all my passwords and he can access any of my e.mail accounts anytime he wants... BUT he will never do it, because he respects me. If he starts doubting something, he will come and talk to me. He won't bug his phone (I am living at his place) to find out what I am up to.

It is not what I might find out by spying on somebody, it is the FACT that I am spying on somebody could ruin the relationship, trust, and hence it might cause pain.

I can see that you wouldnt do that.... No need too. I think your misunderstand James position. I dont recall him advocating that you do that for any and every person in a relationship that is serious. You offered all of your passwords your BEHAVIOR is open and nothing to hide. Why would there be any suspision of mistrust???

I read his position as IF YOU HAVE A REASON FOR MISTRUST you should do that to prove that you are right or you are just being paranoid.

Bottom line, its his home, his telephone line, his computer. I personally wouldnt go that route but, it is certainly not illegal. Frankly its not much different than hiring a private dective to follow your spouse to investigate if they are sleeping with someone else..... is that morally wrong? I think not!

You've failed miserably in your courtship if you have someone living with you that is creating that level of mistrust early in a relationship. I also bet, that in the circumstances Llyod and James have referenced, in every case there were mulitple warning signs along the way that got ignored by the man.

Posted by: rob_we

Quote:

You've failed miserably in your courtship if you have someone living with you that is creating that level of mistrust early in a relationship

Definitely true. And as a matter of fact IF one can not talk anymore, if one HAS to assume lie and cheat, then why should one go further anyway? It should be enough to decide what to do! I think the Quest for the ULTIMATE PROOF is a never ending, more and more hurting story, and you will never be anywhere else then where you started....
But what you do not do on this quest is one thing. You do not try to find out what you want any more. You do not give someone a chance anymore, despite the fact that something might or might not have happened.
Assume the case one part cheated on the other, and you talk...
The cheating part might think as well and maybe return!
If the "cheating" part didn´t cheat (you just assumed) then he or she will tell you and will be able to convince you.
If both ways are not possible any more then cut the rope...
Then theres no need for more proof any more anyway. If you know you cant forgive then you dont love, then you want to possess...
And all you want is to keep your "precious"...
I think it doesn´t only sound like Gollum I think you will become Gollum in the end, if you act like this ....

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by rob_we
Definitely true. And as a matter of fact IF one can not talk anymore, if one HAS to assume lie and cheat, then why should one go further anyway? It should be enough to decide what to do! I think the Quest for the ULTIMATE PROOF is a never ending, more and more hurting story, and you will never be anywhere else then where you started....
But what you do not do on this quest is one thing. You do not try to find out what you want any more. You do not give someone a chance anymore, despite the fact that something might or might not have happened.
Assume the case one part cheated on the other, and you talk...
The cheating part might think as well and maybe return!
If the "cheating" part didn´t cheat (you just assumed) then he or she will tell you and will be able to convince you.
If both ways are not possible any more then cut the rope...
Then theres no need for more proof any more anyway. If you know you cant forgive then you dont love, then you want to possess...
And all you want is to keep your "precious"...
Ithink it doesn´t only sound like Gollum I think you will become Gollum in the end, if you act like this ....

ithout integrity, the foundation is destroyed.

There was an article on Netscape this moring citing a study done about men and women engaging in infidelity in the US. What they concluded was that in general, women are far more adept at hiding indecretion than men are. The article stated that they werent just better but were substancially better.

In general, if you think something is going on, it almost always is. I know personally, that when I have gotten to the point that I am voicing my concern about faithfulness I have never been wrong. Sadly......

Its not just me either.... the majority of us, intuatively know when our partner is acting in a maner that is suggesting unfaithfulness. Rarely does someone have a single indiscrection and never again. It is amlost always an ongoing thing with a "lover" in that case the person being cheated on almost always finds out and is rarely wrong about voicing a concern about behavior that suggests or might suggest an affair.

I further think it is folly for a man to believe that his wife or girlfriend had a single indiscretion and it will never happen again. Sure, I suppose you might find the rare exception, I doubt it but it is in the realm of what is possible. Infidelity is a relationship killer. If your girl screws around on you, how can you beileve it wont happen again?

Understand, women rarely have an affair for sex. It is usually because an emotional need is not being met. So when a woman has an affair, she is giving herself both emotionally and physically... ie she is much more likely to be "in love" Or my favorite form of woman speak "I have feelings for him.."

Posted by: rob_we

Robohio,
Ok but again... where is the point. Why not cutting the rope THEN!
Why do you need a proof then? What is it about to live with somebody you can´t trust? Makes no sense to me...
If i have doubts that can not be cleared up, then I have to go...
Anything else is just a proof for a proof.....
Its not about what he/she did, its about what I feel (to me)...
I would not deliberately go that way....
What does it proof if you were wrong? That you wrongly didn´t trust because you didnt love any more.
What does it proof if you were right? That you correctly didn´t trust because you didnt love any more.

This makes no difference to me, hence its no possibility to go... for me...

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by rob_we
Robohio,
Ok but again... where is the point. Why not cutting the rope THEN!
Why do you need a proof then? What is it about to live with somebody you can´t trust? Makes no sense to me...
If i have doubts that can not be cleared up, then I have to go...
Anything else is just a proof for a proof.....
Its not about what he/she did, its about what I feel (to me)...
I would not deliberately go that way....
What does it proof if you were wrong? That you wrongly didn´t trust because you didnt love any more.
What does it proof if you were right? That you correctly didn´t trust because you didnt love any more.

This makes no difference to me, hence its no possibility to go... for me...

Like I said several posts back in this thread.... I wouldn't personally use such a tatic. I can see why some would. Some would say I need evidence that my suspecsions are grounded in reality. Its not like your partner is likely to fess up....

Some would say, that buy having proof, you force them to admit the infidelty and it justifies you breaking the relationship off. Look this all goes back to behavior.

If your partner is keeping passwords, creating email accounts you dont know about that is behavior that is suggesting that there is a problem

As was stated earlier by a lady on her (para?) her partner knows all of her passwords. There would be no earthly reason to hide such information. Why would you have an email or content that you wouldnt want your spouse to know about. its when you start seeing deceptive behavior that would prompt such action.

As I said, I personally wouldnt advocate such action. I think if you spend a lot of time getting to know the person you are courting and not excusing behavior that is "red flags" then you dont have to worry about her being a GCG

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel.

James has hit the nail on the head to many trips inside Russia, TURKEY and holiday in Romania.

She went on holiday two weeks to Romania this is normal then two weeks later Turkey and then 1 month later Moscow for one day and then again in one month again Moscow Now this is not right and i should have been more careful and played the game and kept watch for at least one week on her account.

I'm not upset one bit its about being careful and now on to phaze b.

James you are right my heart can not take much more and for gifts it was just flowers i feel normal in the first part of the relationship.

Regards.

Neil

Posted by: rob_we

Robohio,

I think we found a consense in not agreeing personally but understanding each other point

So thats a good outcome..

I still would like to answer you last question....

Quote:

Why would you have an email or content that you wouldnt want your spouse to know about

I have at least 4 reasons:

to...

book trips to surprise her ,
buy presents online for her
regulate things that would hurt her (old family business ex-wife) I tell her about it but in my own words (I do not want to have more trouble because of some stupid words)
organize all sorts of things (visa, holiday issues, and connected correspondences, things that would give her a clue about my surprise)

Posted by: parasionok

Neil,

I have been working in telecommunications business for 7 years. When I worked in Moscow office of Deutsche Telekom, I had to travel 70% of my time... All my holidays I spent somewhere outside of Moscow.

I understand your concerns but

1. you have to know for sure that she cannot afford to travel and if she travels it must be with some sponsor or whatever
2. she has a job that doesn't allow her to travel...
3. you have to know for sure that those holidays were not planned long time in advance and were not funded by family members or herself

I must also point out that going on holiday or an occasional trip to some city in Russia is not a crime.

But I have to agree with James. Dump her. You expressed so many doubts here, and you were saying very opposite things from one post to another, and I think it is the best that you take a break, calm down and start looking somewhere else.

Posted by: neil277

Hello my dear Neil!

Thank you for �women humor�. Most of all I understood but not all.
I was so sleepy all day long! My morning was afternoon. My Mum has been protected my sleep. She didn�t call me to the phone and was like mouse. Neil, I was so tired even when I was sleeping I had a dream about me that I�m tired and want to sleep.
Neil, I�m better after nice humor stories. I came home and was ironing during 1.40 now I have a rest. It�s so boring but I�m afraid I don�t finish today. I want open my emailbox and see your cards and letters!!!
I miss you, my heart, so much!
Neil, I always leave one or two trousers for myself and Mum said yesterday that I�m crazy. So, may be I will not leave even one

Neil, I hate my computer and telephone line I can�t log on! My heart, I will call you in this case. As I see I haven�t got chances today. What
How are you, my Soul?
How do you feel?
How is your Mum? Is she fine?

Lots of kisses and my hugs.
Your Nataly

Time 11.59pm Belarus time

Regards.

Neil

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by rob_we
Robohio,

I think we found a consense in not agreeing personally but understanding each other point So thats a good outcome..

I still would like to answer you last question....

I have at least 4 reasons:

to...

book trips to surprise her ,
buy presents online for her
regulate things that would hurt her (old family business ex-wife) I tell her about it but in my own words (I do not want to have more trouble because of some stupid words)
organize all sorts of things (visa, holiday issues, and connected correspondences, that would give her a clue about my surprise)

Of course there are exceptions..... the point was there is in general a serious problem if you have a spouse hiding passwords... creating new email accounts that your spouse doesnt know about....ect.

I personally would have a majror problem with a spouse hiding passwords. I would not "snoop" By nature once a person gains my trust, I TRUST them totally until it is time to no longer trust them!

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel.

I like this website very much and wish the owner and his wife and the moderators and the panel all the best in making this site second to none.

I'm not dumb James i understand everything in life and you are right this lady has been caught with her knickers around her ancles, and i was e.mailed around 8.45pm UK time tonight and i refused to reply because i'm hurt and every 5 mins she replied to me and when i told her Nataly how can i trust you? she logged off and then i phoned her home to see if she was on internet she was not.

I never caused this problem i'm 110% honest she was the one who contacted other men and told me Neil i sent reply to man 2 weeks ago and told him i found my soul mate what a load of rubbish she has been caught and now knows my heart is not so good.

Honest people i like and finding another lady will not be hard but very easy but finding a lady who is honest is much harder and if she contacts me tomorow she has to go through Lena's check now to find out what she is upto, no more games i must get to the bottom of this.

James i like your answers and this goes for the rest of the panel i'm sorry my English is not so good.

Regards.

Neil

Posted by: parasionok

Neil,

I think you did what you could to do best for yourself and Nata.

But what happened since you found out that her US friend was using her profile and she was causing all the troubles and you reached the full understanding with Nata and her mom on the subject, and you said you felt like she was her soulmate,

what happened?

Posted by: neil277

To this guy who asked me what happend.

The trust has gone its a shame but she caused the problem i have never flirted to any lady who has contacted my website and this goes for ladies on the form, im 110% honest trust is what makes a relationship.

She caused the problem trips are ok but her job is poor and their is know way she could afford these's trips BANDITS.

Regards.

Neil

Posted by: rob_we

neil

i think if you are sure then its the best to break up...

I agree with para

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel.

First i would like to say thank you for all your replies, i had time to think and read about what is right and wrong and i have to go with faith and love and to awaken faith and love in others.

First i would like to say to James you mentioned about you can't full in love with someone over the internet, so please tell me if you talk to a lady for around 5-7 months without meeting dont you feel them as part of your life and new beginning and perhaps the way they kiss and the way they dance and the way they eat their food etc, etc.

I feel this is normal and a way of building a relationship and the only way to get to know someone better is to go and meet them, this lady has never asked for money so this is why i have decided to forgive and forget.

Best Regards.

Neil

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel.

I'm sorry you may feel Neil is stupid but Neil is not, i know my ex lady looks at this site but it was a ploy to keep her thinking i still love her.

I told you phase two was in action and Phase two has now hatched, i found another site which she is on and she uses the same password but this time she had her e.mail showing so people can contact her, i take a look and she last updated this month and talks to many guys.

I made out i was her and guess what this guy was ready to send her money for airfare, so i was honset and told this guy the truth i felt bad but guys this is my life i can't feel sorry for people when my life could be in danger.

I will name and shame this lady but not as a scammer for money but just as a lady who talks to other men when she knows you have booked flight and paid for visa.

Panel money is very important in life i'm not rich and work long hours for my money and no little madam will take my money.

Relationship is about being honest before madam i was talking to a lady from bride.ru and she was so beautiful a model but i was honest and said Olga i don't know what i want so please feel free to contact other men, we spoke for one month and it just faded out but i have never seen this lady since, but this was the right way i could never hurt someone.

I feel sorry for this guy but i'm No1 and have to look after myself and not get scammed, i feel madam has lost a good man but it proves she is a player and now their is no going back.

Thanks for your replies and thank you for the moderaters and the owners for having a site which is second to none.

Warm Regards.

Neil

Posted by: FlashingEyes

Neil,

I know it's hard to feel close to someone and then have to feel the emptiness of a breakup and start all over. Certainly you have to be feeling hurt right now and only time will heal that. I don't want you to feel worse but sometimes if you can learn something from an experience it makes it easier to deal with the hurt. In this case, one thing you might think about is that noone is perfect, and all people have secrets.

If you knew all thoughts of everyone you met then probably it would be very difficult for you ever to fall in love with someone. The reason is that even men and women who are serious about another tend to keep their options open, especially early in a relationship, and to consider others, again especially early on. I have even heard of cases where couples have had a strong marriage for many years and then one of them might have some thoughts over a period of days or weeks or even months as to whether he or she might prefer to be married to another person. Sometimes they keep their thoughts secret but other times I know couples might even go through a period of seperation while one or both of them sorts through thoughts like these. Of course, usually people don't tell their partners what their real thoughts are, because it will only lead to pain because the partner won't understand that this seeming mental unfaithfulness is natural and unavoidable and instead the partner will only feel hurt and betrayed. Often times, the results of these natural thoughts is that they decide their marriage is very good and they are quite lucky to have the person they do and that makes their marriages even stronger. If you were to try to deny this natural process then the marriage would never have the chance to become stronger, and lingering doubts would always be there somewhere.

The same thing happens while people are dating to a much greater extent in most normal, healthy relationships. People dating usually not only have thoughts of others but keep in contact with other potential mates and maybe even date them. However, typically the partners are not told because typically the partners would not understand but only feel hurt and betrayed. What the partners would not understand is that contacting or even dating others doesn't mean that a person is not serious, but instead is often part of a healthy process where lingering doubts are acted on to a limited extent so that feelings can be resolved.

In your case, while of course you wanted to romanticize that everything would work out perfectly and all thoughts of others should be forgotten, it may be that she still had some doubts and didn't feel comfortable telling them to you, especially because she thought you wouldn't understand. So it is natural that she might keep in contact with other men, especially before she's even met you - after all, no matter how serious you say you are, you could still decide at the last minute that you changed your mind about meeting her, or meet someone else, or reveal to her that you are actually married - there are deceitful people out there and there have been cases in the past where people seemed just as serious as you but really weren't.

This is why relationships cannot be solved or improved by breaking into online accounts, or bugging computers and phones, except in the most serious cases - I think James Riske's situation where he described why he bugged his live-in girlfriend was extreme and the bugging warranted but not for two people who have never met and one of them is expecting them both to have maritial commitments just because he indicated that it was vital for them to have it and she agreed largely out of peer pressure from him but at the same time she still had lingering doubts so she is still keeping contact with other men on the sly at least until she's actually met this guy who wants her to break off contact with everyone else.

Trust is vital to a relationship, and often it must be given if the relationship is to succeed, even if it is not fully deserved. All people have defects, and the key to success in a relationship is often understanding and forgiving. In this particular instance, this particular lady, I don't know enough about her to know for sure things might have worked out or not with you if you had left her privacy alone. I do know, however, that many relationships that have succeeded would have failed if one of the parties in the relationship had done what you did early on - breaking into online accounts. I wish you the best of luck in finding someone else but please consider being a little more willing to let the next one have her secrets, especially early on before you've even met.

Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel.

I got and e.mail yesterday telling me to be strong and clever and come back to her, i replied i want you out of my life and when talking on the telephone she always told me Neil i hope you don't play or talk to other ladies on the internet because i dont, this is what got me thinking, she was not clever but very silly and it was her talking on line to many men all the time.

On the 19-10-2004 she was talking to another man on the internet and for the two months she has been talking on the internet to men and her friend that e.mailed me was genuine and i feel she done this for Nataly as a friend would do this to get you out of trouble but three times,i have now found out what she was doing and i can't forgive.

Nataly's mum called her the other day a dirty pig what ever this means in Russia.

Nataly and i spoke about closing down all profiles on the web and i have closed all mine down and she told me she had done the same.

I told Nataly i will give 110% in relationship which i did but i feel only 50% came from Nataly in the end.

I have seen her profile on many marriage agency's and it does not add up one minute she is a teacher and the next something different on one profile she said she would not relocate and the other she would.

What got to me when she phoned me crying was the words i kill you, i kill you, i kill you and all she wanted to know, was i coming for Christmas, not sorry Neil or i made mistake i was very drunk and just logged on and never thought.

I feel she has problems and i was their to help her at Christmas its just my hunch she was not interested in what happened but was i still coming to see her.

When her Mums, mum died i sent nice flowers to her mum to say i,m sorry about whats happened and this is from my heart to your heart, i never had to do this but i wanted to and thought it was the right thing to do and her mum was very happy with flowers.

I use to send flowers to Nataly and include a toy like a bear or a dog but never would send money and she would never ask for money but i feel this trip was not about boyfriend, girlfriend but had something to do with what she wants and she told me she had troubles and would tell me in person but not via letter.

Am I hurt yes!! and you spoke about secrets yes everyone has secrets or a past but i have spoken about this subject before and the guy runs a succesful marriage agency in the Ukraine, and he said when people book flight and make plans you have to cut contacts with other people and give the person a chance or the relationship will never work.

I could talk to Nataly for hours and the flow of talking was good but now i have to move on, i have flight booked and need to rectify visa but most of all i need to meet new lady, i have looked at the web but theses ladies are not for me, i'm looking for a lady around 28-36 slim dresses nice without children, i don't want the ladies who are drop dead gorgeous just a normal girl who has normal job and who is honest etc, etc.

My flight leaves 27th December 2003 and gets back to London 11th January 2004, i not to worried about visa because i can express this, but if the time comes and i can't find the right lady then i will let flight go.

I want to add one more thing if I was in Belarus and said to Nataly i can't see you today or tommorow and kept my whereabouts secret would she like it, No she would not.

Being honest is what makes a good relationship and i showd my mum the mens profiles who Nataly had been talking to and her reply was theses men were good time charlies.

Well thank you for your replies.

Regards,

Neil

P.S.

Women are no different to men but i feel women are there worst own enemy, if they are on the internet every night and they have men telling them how beautiful they are, they believe they can do what they want and get what they want, but the grass is never greener on the other side and they find out the hard way.