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Just back from St Pete...

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Posted by: rk288

Hi,

This is my first time writing here. I just returned from a 6 day trip to St Pete from the USA. I met a lovely Siberian Lady there, Larisa (Lora) Saitova. After a couple months of good correspondence and phone calls we decided to meet on neutral ground and St Pete was highly recommended to me over Moscow.

Here's the deal; I need some feedback...It starts out we agree to meet and I begin making plans...visa, apartment rental, tickets, etc. I keep her informed of my progress and she is very pleased and seems to be making he own plans...she wrote "only a force majuer will keep me from meeting you"...then she runs into financial difficulties; trouble with work, her daughter is sick, her grandmother is sick...she didn't ask for money though. She said she would borrow it from friends. The her friends fell through, they bought a new car and could no longer loan her money...she needs my help.

By this time I've paid out several hundred dollars and put in a lot of effort...I emailed her copies of my visa, the details on the apartment, my flight itinerary,etc so she would know that I was serious.

Unknown to her still is that I used airmiles for my ticket and the whole trip was costing me less than $1000.00. To me even if she didn't show it was the chance of a lifetime and I was crazy not to do it.

So, after some painful correspondence, I agreed to buy a ticket for her and send it via DHL to her doorstep. I told her I would take care of her expenses while we were there, no problem...she was very pleased!!! I would be too The letters and phone calls were now very pleasant, back to normal...by the way she was very sweet and polite during the above mentioned "painful correspondence". She is always very sweet and polite and we have many common interests.

We meet and smile, I give her a hug and a kiss on the cheek which she does not return??? We ride to the apartment with a driver who doesn't speak a single word of English and I know just enough Russian to be dangerous to myself. They chatter away in much friendly conversation, she translates, we laugh and smile...wonderful!!! She handles the introductions at the apartment with the landlady...very pleasant...we exchange gifts and laugh, talk and smile. A very warm meeting to me.

Mind you now, I did not travel all that way, put forth all of that effort and expense with any thought in mind other than to meet my new found friend of many months in person...to be eye to eye, arm in arm walking the streets of St Pete.

So, she is starving and we both need to phone home. Food first for her we decide...she flew Aeroflot, I flew Lufthansa...I had more food than I needed, she said she had none!!!???

We put our shoes and coats on at the door...I turn to look into her eyes, smile and reach out to give her a hug and she turns cold as a cucumber on me and backs me right off!!! I am kind of bewildered at this but I didn't make a big deal of it.

We found a very pleasant Bistro next to The Astoria and had a wonderful 3 hour meal...simply wonderful!! Lots of very happy eye contact, laughter, smiles and pleasant conversation. I will never forget that time...:-)))

OK, ends day 1. No hug, no kiss, pleasant "Good night"...I of course out of respect for the lady rented a 2 bedroom apartment. I was brought up as a gentleman and always will be one.

She begins to notice this as I insist on helping her with her coat, opening doors for her and walking to the traffic side of the street to which she often pleasantly laughed and didn't understand at first...very amusing to me also because often when we crossed a street in a new direction she would loose me until I reappeared on the opposite side to take her arm again...another custom which she was not used to. I start to think...what the heck is up with these guys over here? No wonder their women are all trying to escape...

Now I become frustrated and confused. We are having such a wonderful time...yet we are not allowed to touch as male and female friends do when they are having fun...you know, cheek to cheek smiling, arms around the waist walking and laughing, holding hands, innocent hugs and kisses??? I had explained to her that I was not with her for sex...she counters with "I am afraid of men" and explanations about past relationships...I think, OK, I'll show you more about a real gentleman and proceed to do so. I'm awake every morning at 6:00, make the cofee, classical music on the radio, cook the breakfast, clean the kitchen...her wish is my desire...

Day 2 our prepaid, no waiting in line visit to The Hermitage...she can't believe we don't have to wait in the 3 hour line and is confused and a little frightened when I whisk her through the doors past everyone to get our tickets. She is dressed for this occasion in form fitting clothes...driving me crazy...still no holding hands or arm around the shoulder as we gaze at the magnificence of these wonderful treasures...I think, OK, I am still having the time of my life with this wonderfully strange, beautiful companion at my side...she is a marvelous tour guide for me and we again have a wonderful day...but she is so distant???

That night I ask her quite openly and honestly if she is attracted to me at all??? She says yes, she is!!! I am thrilled and I begin again to ask her what is wrong with friendly, innocent affection? I explain to her that I am an affectionate person and in America it is normal. I hit on the right word there...she told me it is not "normal" for her...I say OK looking into her eyes with troubled understanding...she retires without saying "good night"...she just vanished into her room???

We had agreed that the next morning would be an early one as we planned to take the hydrofoil across the Gulf of Finland to visit Peterhof. I was up as ususal with coffee and ready to cook breakfast at 6:00...she was always rather grumpy waking up as I knocked on her door saying "I want to sleep"...she had explained to me early in our correspondence that she was a "night owl" and liked to sleep in in the morning...I am too except when I have something to do I told her...I can go without sleep if it is important. Once she was awake she was pleasant and ploite as ususal but still very distant as a female friend to me...what do I know by this time??? What do I care? I am having the time of my life in a beautiful Russian city with a beautiful Russian lady...I have had worse I assure you...

This one thing is notable to me...I have a digital camera...she is always stopping me to take a picture of her...a glamourous photo with a wonderful background. She insisted that I purchase some prints before we left??? She sent me several photos from vacation spots in Spain and Egypt during our correspondence. I wonder, does she lure men into buying her tickets so she can send other men these glamourous photos? Am I paranoid???

The visit to Peterhof was again marvelous. She was very discrete in that she purchased all of the tickets for us as Russian citizens explaining to me that while we were there I "could not speak" lest we be discovered and cause trouble htat would foul our visit...I had no problem with that as the tickets for foreigners were 5 times the cost.

That day I again approached her regarding her "distance" from me...she wanted to know about my divorce and my former wife. I had explained all of this to her in our correspondence months ago but now that we were "in person" I repeated it. My former wife was a "Golddigger", she took me for over a million dollars...Lora does not understand this...this woman tried and is still trying to kill me, to destroy me...pretty scary huh??? Not gonna happen boys...I'm standing tall...doin alright...I have a 10 year old Boy Scout to look after here...I was a Scout, my father was a Scout...we have a motto "Do your best..."

We sat pleasantly on the park benches...I collected some sand and pebbles from the beach on the Gulf of Finland...we took the hydrofoil back to St Pete in silence...distance...again???

That night we tried and failed at a night club for dinner and dancing but we still enjoyed a pleasant time and a good walk home (she always called our apartment "home" which was pleasant to me...

Our last day...panic shopping for me! I had 19 people to buy gifts for and we had tickets for the ballet that night...we went straight away for the best sovenier shop on Nevsky and I quickly raang upover 5000 Rubles. Now I wanted to get something for her...a black formal dress for the ballet a simple request as I had brought my best dark suit and I didn't want her to be "undredressed"...she did not understand at first apparently? I had to explain that in America all women have a formal, simple black dress to go out with...I was again surprised to learn that this is not the custom or "normal" in Russia..we of course spent many tedious hours on this subject. What was "normal" to me was "crazy" to her...there was a time when she got angry and walked away because the dress that I liked was too expensive and could only be worn "once a year" and even then would be too extravagant for her...it was 12000 Rubles...not at all expensive for me for my sweetheart to go to the ballet with me, box seats in a famous Russian theater...

Guess what? The shopping cost me over 30,000 Rubles by the time we were done...shoes, boots, scarves ,jewelry (which she didn't wear) and other accesories whch she did not wear.

In addition to that I sent $100.00 to her daughter in cash and 3000 rubles to her for her trip home for food so Aeroflot would not starve her agian???


What have I done here? Did I only get a very excelent tour guide for a very reasonable price???

If that is so I have no complaint...where is my dear friend then??? I am not attractive to her???


Posted by: Jill

Well, as for the money--you gave that willingly. Was she very insistent that you buy her these things or that you send money to her daughter? It doesn't sound like it frm the post, but maybe you have left out these details. Did she generally seem more interested in money than in you? Again, it doesn't sound that to me (based on the informatin that you have provided).

So what happened to your friend? Hard to say. Her behavior was distant, but friendly. Did she show interest in your conversations? Or did she roll her eyes and yawn whenever you spoke? Other than the hand-holding/hugging issue (i.e. the physical contact), did she seemed engaged in your interaction? Did her personality/interests/etc seem to change drastically from your correspondance to you first meeting in person?

My opinion at this point is is that it could be two things:

1. She's shy, old fashioned, conservative, whatever you want to call it. You were only there for 6 days and, despite you're previous correspondance, you are still virtually strangers (at best, perhaps, pen pals). Maybe she just wasn't ready to go to that next step. Maybe she needs more time to get to know you (in person!). Some people are like that. Especially women over a certain age (don't know how old your friend is).

2. Maybe she liked your personality in the letters, but just didn't feel the chemistry that she was hoping for when you met face to face. And she didn't want to hurt your feelings and ruin your vacation by telling you this when you asked. I hope that's not it, of course, but you'll find out soon enough (from her next letter).

From what you have posted, it doesn't really sound to me that she's just using you for money. The part in the beginning (about the sick daughter, sick grandmother, etc) was a bit suspicious, but it's possible that it's all true.

At any rate, whether she used you for a free trip, simply wasn't attracted to you, or is just an old fashioned gal, I think you will find out very soon.

Has she written you yet?

If so, what was the letter like? Does she sound like she is still interested in pursuing a relationship? Did she ask for money?

Quote:
This one thing is notable to me...I have a digital camera...she is always stopping me to take a picture of her...a glamourous photo with a wonderful background. She insisted that I purchase some prints before we left??? She sent me several photos from vacation spots in Spain and Egypt during our correspondence. I wonder, does she lure men into buying her tickets so she can send other men these glamourous photos? Am I paranoid???


Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps she just wanted something to remember the trip by. As for the "glamorous" aspect--some Russian women are just into that--they like to pose. I know many Russian women who will never tire of the "look, I'm holding the Eiffel Tower in my hand" style pictures

But did she ever want to have a picture taken WITH you? Did she ask for prints of any pictures with YOU in them? Has she told you anything about her vacations to Spain and Egypt (such as who she went with, etc.)?

Quote:
Guess what? The shopping cost me over 30,000 Rubles by the time we were done...shoes, boots, scarves ,jewelry (which she didn't wear) and other accesories whch she did not wear.


But you don't say whether she insisted on these gifts, or if they were your idea....

At this point, based on your post, I'm leaning toward the "old fashioned" explanation of her behavior. I will say this, though--if you decide to take another trip to get together with her, DEFINITELY plan to meet in her home town this time.

Maybe someone else will help us out here with their insights


Posted by: Jim_FL

First, domestic Aeroflot flights. They did not feed her, you can be sure (BTW, when was the last time you were fed on an American domestic flight?).

While I agree with most of what Jill has written, my gut feeling leans more toward "opinion 2". One of the old sayings that is almost universally accepted is this:
If a Russian woman likes you, you will know it!
This does not mean she will hop into bed with you on the night you arrive, but she will leave no doubt in your mind that she is interested in you. Even guys who spoke zero russian, who met women who spoke zero english, have written about this phenomenon. Body language speaks volumes.

About "cultural differences"
For a small town, conservative woman, it is NOT ok to kiss in public or openly display affection. However, once in the privacy of the apartment affection is given freely to whatever extent she is comfortable with. Furthermore, walking hand in hand or with arms around the waist is not common practice, but what is VERY common, is to walk with arms interlocked (elbow to elbow like in the old time movies) and is a perfectly acceptable demonstration of public affection. You also describe "at the door". If you or she was in fact, standing in the doorway, it may have been why she backed you off. Superstition dictates that NOTHING is to be done across the threshold of a doorway - bad luck. The roles of man and women are much more clearly defined in Russia, if you did the gentalmanly thing - it was expected (even if she pretended to be surprised). I don't quite understand about the dress, typically Russian women are WAYYYYY more fashion conscious than women here in the states.

Quote:
No wonder their women are all trying to escape...

Get this thought out of your head immediately, many many are not, and if you find one that is...........run the other way, FAST!!!!


Posted by: ConnerVT

You just took a professional vacationer on a paid excursion to St. Petersburg. Not as common a scam as others, but it happens.

It is likely that other men paid for her vacations in Spain and Egypt. Did she want any pictures of the two of you together? I guess not, it would spoil the trophy shots.

Run from this one...


Posted by: sidney

My Ukrianian wife and I both feel that somehing is not right especially with the lack of effectiom. There can be many reasons for this which I would try to understand. At first guess it would indicate a lack of interest in you but probably is much deeper from past experience or expectations. We feel that you did everything right. The past trips to Egypt and other places causes suspicion.
Thanks for the post.
Sid


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
You just took a professional vacationer on a paid excursion to St. Petersburg.


Not to make light of this man's situation...But what a job! Professional vacationer! Just tell me where to apply!


Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:
Originally posted by Jill
Professional vacationer! Just tell me where to apply!

Why, on the Internet, of course!


Posted by: wavetossed

Overall this sounds like a woman who didn't meet the kind of man that she expected to meet. Everytime you talk about how you did something "controlling" she reacts by pulling back emotionally. Then you pester her and "break" her resistance or buy her compliance.

By the way, I agree with her on this black evening dress thing. Why would anyone want to spend half a year's salary on a dress that you can't wear anywhere? So what did you do? You spent three times as much on stuff and forced the issue. It's one thing to buy a woman a present, it's another thing to force your fashion sense on her. This is not the way to sort out problems of a relationship that is going through a rough patch.

Why didn't you listen to her more often? Why don't you understand the economic reality of her life in Siberia? This is a classic example of why it is a mistake to spend the entire first visit in a holiday environment. You are throwing incredible amounts of cash around as if you had no idea of the value of money. It may not seem like that to you after you carefully saved for your trip, but to her eyes you are paying prices 5 or more times the normal price for little added benefit. What kind of a husband is that? He'll be broke and starving in no time.

Also, at the beginning of your message it seems like you expected her to by her own ticket to St. Pete even though you were inviting her to visit? Then she had to go through a long song and dance to get the hint through your thick skull that she simply cannot afford such luxuries? I'll bet that every one of her stories were lies. She was just trying to be kind and hint at the problem rather than rubbing your face in your own lack of manners.

I like the idea of meeting in a neutral place like St. Pete but only for a couple of days to kick things off. After that, visit your girlfriend's town. This provides a natural break point after the first few days. If there is some chemistry, then you make the journey to her town. If not, you hand her a return ticket home and make the best of your time in the neutral place.

Why didn't you arrange to spend time in Siberia? If she got DHL delivery then she must live in one of the big cities like Omsk or Novosibirsk where there is plenty for dating couples to do together.

Having said all of this, it doesn't necessarily mean that you've hit a dead end. Most relationships have to go through some rough and awkward moments and there is no script that says you can't do this on the first meeting. But you do need to have a lot more frank and open communication. You need to talk explicitly about cultural differences and you need to talk about your own habits, desires, opinions in such a way that you learn about each other's cultural contexts.


Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

I feel this lady is shy and there is nothing wrong in meeting a lady in another country as long as she is honest, so you kissed this lady and she went shy this is normal a good Russian women will be like this what do you want a lady who jumps into your bed that very night, you can get this type of lady in your own country.

I have not read all your e.mail and will go back very soon as i'm waiting for an e.mail and i would like to say my mum told me the other day Neil years ago you use to meet someone and go out with someone and you knew they would be on your arm and not someone elses and she is right.

Regards,

Neil


Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

You have been very silly i was speaking to a shop owner the other day and he told me for $1000 per month you can have seven *****es so why give this woman money.?

Spain and Egypt during our correspondence. I wonder, does she lure men into buying her tickets so she can send other men these glamourous photos? Am I paranoid???

Once you been scammed it make you more smart and play games with theses ladies let your guard down and think like them if i met a lady i would know from the first second if she is good or not and if i don't like they are down the road and i move on.

Why should a western man take rubbish off theses women enough is enough.

Neil


Posted by: James Riske

I hate to tell you this, guy, but she's not interested in you at all. Her interest level in you wasn't even high enough to hold your hand. And in response, you did the worse thing a guy could do: you turned into a coddling whimp. Making her breakfast, buying gifts for her, etc. That made her interest level in you even lower. She has no respect for you, you're too easy, and you chase after women who aren't interested in you.

There's a techinique in dating called the 'kiss close'. That means that you go for the kiss at the end of the date, a nice, lingering kiss. If the woman offers you a cheek and turns away, she's not interested and you shouldn't go on a second date. There are no exceptions to this rule regardless of what all women will say (or men on here). No one can deny that if she's interested in you, if you're the 'cat's meow' in her eyes, she will gladly return the kiss, if not, you're out, pal. I've used this technique and it works like a charm, I weed out women who are not interested in me. Why go out on dates with a woman who just "likes you"? I want her to be all over me and enamored by me as much as I am to her. Remember, you'll get a lot of arguing about this rule with examples of, "I never kiss on the first date, I even married my husband and we didn't kiss.." Well, they merely settled on their husbands. If she was out with Brad Pitt, would she have turned the cheek at the end of the date? NOPE. And please DON"T change my 'kiss close' and twist it into 'jumping into bed' or 'sex'. Just a nice, date kiss, that's all I mean. (in fact, I would advise against getting serious with a woman who jumps into bed with you right away).

You suffered from two problems: a case of oneitis (focusing on one woman, especially before you even met her) and you went out with a professional dater. A professional dater is a woman who goes out with men she's really not interested in. Whether it's for the trip (and your suspicions about her using men for trips were very correct), for the attention, or just to break up boredom. After all, attention from a man she's not interested in is better than no attention or trip at all, right? And as you found out, professional daters are very good at faking interest and getting you to like them. But they always balk at the 'kiss close' as you so quickly discovered.

Her excuses of being afraid of men and all are an instant tip off that she's not being honest with you, a game player, and not interested in you. I agree with all the posters who have responded to you. Dump her and count up your loses and remember how foolish you were to try to win her affection with gifts and playing butler, houseboy, and maid to her. Once she refused the kiss close and turned cold to you, you should have excused yourself and visited the nearest dating agency in St. Petersburg and spent your time on women who were more interested in you.

Wouldn't you have rather spent your time with a woman who liked you too?

Tell you what, send me an email and I'll show you where to get the best advice on dating and how to handle women you'll ever need. You'll never be confused or have these problems again.

lloydpatterson@sbcglobal.net

In fact, you'll have them chasing YOU! And you would have dumped this Professional Dater a long time ago.

By the way, where's all the flames about neil's '7 *****es' remark?


From

Lloyd (posting on James' computer)


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Quote:
then she runs into financial difficulties; trouble with work, her daughter is sick, her grandmother is sick...she didn't ask for money though.


This seems suspicious - why now ?


Quote:
This one thing is notable to me...I have a digital camera...she is always stopping me to take a picture of her...a glamourous photo with a wonderful background. She insisted that I purchase some prints before we left???


So , are you saying that you have no photo's whatsover of you two together ? If you are , Id say this lady was not too interested in being seen in the same frame as you ...

Quote:
She sent me several photos from vacation spots in Spain and Egypt during our correspondence. I wonder, does she lure men into buying her tickets so she can send other men these glamourous photos? Am I paranoid???


I do not think you are paranoid- this lady has already told you she does not have money - she expects men to pay for the holiday and its a logical to asssume another man or men paid for these holidays.

I was told in fsu " The man pays for everything " - this was told me by a russian woman - this is complete rubbish and women from fsu are capable of paying thier own way .

Day 2 you
Quote:
That night I ask her quite openly and honestly if she is attracted to me at all??? She says yes, she is!!!


but then
Quote:
...she told me it is not "normal" for her...I say OK looking into her eyes with troubled understanding...she retires without saying "good night"...she just vanished into her room???


Body language never lies - her mannerisms, her coolness towards you , her unwillingness to even hold hands should have spoke volumes to you regarding her real feelings for you.
I think she was really taking you for a ride - she saw you coming ....

Quote:
What have I done here? Did I only get a very excelent tour guide for a very reasonable price???


I think that she was given the equivalent of 3 months wages - would you do this if you dated an American woman ?

I think this lady used you for a holiday , used you for gifts and used you for an ego trip .


Rattle


Posted by: Jutman

Hi

About food on domestical airlines in Russia. They serve food. !!
I tried both Aeroflot and a local carrier named Volga-Dnejpr airline. The flighttime is 2 hours from Moscow, however at aeroflot it was more like cake and so on.

Its normal in Russia, that you don't show affection in public, not even hold hands. You can see it, but its NOT normal.

I would say, you made 3 classic cultural mistakes.

1) You start talk about, something you're not suppose to do and especially when its put her in 'bad light'.

2) Because you start talk about it, indicae a lack of patient, which also is not a good signal to send her.

3) You show off, economical. Okay, you are not cheap - but the important issue are you economical, which is a important factor for the Russian ladies.

What is your chance? its a maybe or maybe not from your both side.


Posted by: wavetossed

This "kiss close" may be a good idea for dating local girls where you have probably already met before the date or you at least have mutual friends. But it doesn't work so easily when you are planning to spend a couple of weeks visiting a women in the context of an international relationship.

I think it's better to work up to the kiss.

On the first meeting I gave her a big hug including a cheek to cheek caress. If you are European you would probably do lip caress on the cheek rather than cheek to cheek.

That evening, when I said goodbye I planted a kiss firmly on the cheek. No fake kiss on the cheek like Europeans do when they greet. But also not as intimidating as the "kiss close". After all, I know I will see here again tomorrow.

Second day, after a very nice meal at an authentic Irish pub in the middle of Russia, we strolled back to the hotel in the summer twilight. Halfway there, we sat down behind the giant statue of Lenin in the town square, watched the stars for a while, gazed into each other's eyes, and kissed. That night when I took her to her door there was no hesitation for a lingering good night kiss.

The next day, after breakfast, we went to her room to look at the maps and decide where to go that day. Another kissing session just kind of got out of hand...

And we still had another 10 days together.

It's too much to ask a woman to move right into kissing on the first date when you are both staying in the same hotel or apartment and there is the uncertainty created by different languages and cultures. On the other hand, if there isn't some kind of steady progression towards more intimacy, it's a sign of some underlying issue that is not being resolved. And since good communication is the most important thing in a good marriage, you are better off getting into a serious discussion of the issues rather than trying to guess what will make it all better.

My girlfriend and I have had several meta-discussions by email and in person, where we talked about communication and working out small misunderstandings before they grow into big problems. In essence, we agreed that we will both do some things that seem bad to the other person and we will both accept criticism and discussion of these issues without getting upset. We both realize that the unwritten assumptions that work in our daily lives may not be useful between us because of the cultural gap. Good sense of humor on both sides goes a long way here.


Posted by: Skooter

The first UW that I had a relationship with taught me an important lesson.

She said I don't ever care what you say, it's what you do, this is what I will always see!

I saw her the same way after.

This woman said some things to you, but what she did, told you the whole story, Move on! she had a ride at your expense, guys like you make the world turn for these women.

Don't fall in love with a photo, or the nonsense that some of them write, like James says, watch what they do.


Posted by: James Riske

I kind of agree with you, rattle.

The kiss close depends upon the circumstance for sure. When the time is right, one knows it. You may very well be right if you're staying with her and you just got in from a flight and only had dinner or unpacked or whatever.

But when you've wined, dined, and romanced her and the timing is right, go for a nice date kiss close. If it's refused, you know for sure she isn't interested.

This guy sounds like a nice guy, well intentioned but he just got played by a woman who seemingly does this all the time. I'm sure she sees nothing wrong with using men in this way and is highly selfish and self-centered.

I doubt she cared for him but then was let down in person. Her lies and game playing and all her pictures from other trips are proof to that. I hear that Russian women encourage each other to use Western men in this way, for free trips. Sad, but true.

Don't take it personally rt. Your best bet is to visit again and this time arrange with a dating agency to introduce you to a few women while you're there. Do what rob in ohio did.

Better yet, when she gave you the cold shoulder, you should have brought home a hooker and took her to bed! Much better than sleeping alone.

Lloyd

(posting on James' computer - while I stay here and drink all his wine and eat his gourmet cheese)


Posted by: AngryFisherman

Quote:
Originally posted by Lloyd

I doubt she cared for him but then was let down in person. Her lies and game playing and all her pictures from other trips are proof to that. I hear that Russian women encourage each other to use Western men in this way, for free trips. Sad, but true.

Better yet, when she gave you the cold shoulder, you should have brought home a hooker and took her to bed! Much better than sleeping alone.

Lloyd

(posting on James' computer - while I stay here and drink all his wine and eat his gourmet cheese)


Lloyd, I don't see how your advice could be helpful in any way at all. What does prostitutes have to do with anything here? You obviously hear a lot of things, but do not contemplate them. Do you really think that ALL Russian women encourage each other to do the things you write?

I believe most people are looking for advice on how to understand and resolve things on this forum, and not get even.

FisherMan


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Quote:
you should have brought home a hooker and took her to bed! Much better than sleeping alone.


Lloyd.... I dont want to start a moral argument or any argument for that matter over this issue but this piece of advice is just wrong, wrong wrong and isnt going to make the guy feel better -if anything IMHO he will feel even more lonely and even more used than he was before.

rattle


Posted by: rob_we

guys,
somehow its always the girls.
After three or four posts without any new info from rk288 , it turned clear to everyone here that:
a; the girl was a pro
b; she just used him
c; he should have dumped her right away! No use!

What makes you so sure about the fact that no girl may reject any WM because theres no chemistry???

Think of a situation you write a girl talk to her for quite a while.
Then you go to meet her. You look forward to this very day. You wait for her finally arriving. Then she comes along! F*********.
Instantly you find out shes everything you never wanted!
But you are polite. She asks you "Do you like me?"
What do you say?? Honestly? Do you really tell her: "No you are ugly, walk like a goose, and look totally stupid?" I don´t think so. As a gentlemen you try to be nice. You try to get out of the situation as good as possible. If she starts to like you and comes closer to you you will backoff of course! Not so much in public to a certain extent, because theres no danger, and you want to be polite. But in private you do! If she insists to offer you a present, you will politely reject, if she does it more than once, you will probalby politely accept! If you feel in a way dependant on her its even more difficult (backticket!!)! Things like this happen, thats normal! Or do you expect a "pay-off" from her?
Somehow it seems to me that anybody here expects that russian beauties just jump on any WM just because hes from beyond the former iron curtain! If not shes a scammer or "pro vaccationer" or whatever else "occupations" were created for girls all over the place!
Why is the likelihood of this posibility (no chemistry) so much smaller than the "common agree" on she was "using" him?
BTW. I usually stand up earlier in the morning and make coffe for us two. If I would have EVER woken up my beauty at around 6:00 in the morning, she woud have instantly SHOT me for sure!

All these stories on all boards together must create exactly this picture of RW/UW that lots of guys here seem to believe!
If you want a woman with a free will, she must have the right to reject you! By the way if she was so pro, why didn´t she at least kiss him or maybe more and pretend to get much more out of him???? Doesn´t make so much sense to me to be honest!

...and a joke about expectations:

a guy flies in a balloon. He has lost orientation seeing someone going on the ground and goes down to ask.
"Can you help me? I don´t know where I am and had to meet someone on a certain location about 30 minutes ago!"
"Yes" sais the guy on the ground. " You are exactly 50 degrees 20´12" north and 40 degrees 23´10" west."
"You must be a technician" sais the ballonguy.
"Yes thats correct" responds the guy on the ground" how do you know?"
"Well" says the man in the balloon." All you say is correct, hence it does not help me at all. I still have no clue where I am, or how to proceed, your info is worthless to me, and in fact I am delayed even more now because i talked to you!"
"And you must be a manager" responds the man on the ground.
"Also correct" sais the balloon guy. "How did you figure that out?"
"Well" replies the man on the ground." You are up there mainly due to a lot of hot air, you have no clue how you got where you are right now and how to proceed, you made a promise without any proof that you would ever be able to keep it, you asked me for help and I answered correctly, i did not do anything wrong but in the end of the day you made me feel guilty about it all"....


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by rattlesnake6979
Lloyd.... I dont want to start a moral argument or any argument for that matter over this issue but this piece of advice is just wrong, wrong wrong and isnt going to make the guy feel better -if anything IMHO he will feel even more lonely and even more used than he was before.

rattle


Hey angry fisherman, did I ever claim that ALL Russian women tell others to use American guys for free trips? NO. So why did you write that I did? I said that I hear that Russian women encourage other Russian women to do this and that is a fact. I have heard that before.

This board seems to do this more often than others: exaggerate another's post and twist the meaning in order to flame that person on things they haven't even said.


I wrote this:

""""" I hear that Russian women encourage each other to use Western men in this way, for free trips. Sad, but true.""""


And you wrote this:

"""""""Do you really think that ALL Russian women encourage each other to do the things you write?"""""


It doesn't get more obvious than that. Try sticking to responding to what I actually wrote, OK?

And then you wrote:

"""I believe most people are looking for advice on how to understand and resolve things on this forum, and not get even."""

Where in my post do I mention anything about 'getting even'? I merely suggested that he dump the woman who was using him and then made a tongue in cheek comment that he would be better off spending the night with a hooker.

Since when can't a guy make a comment like that in a guy forum such as this (predominantly guy, that is) and not get flamed by all the 'sensitive' gurly men out there? I don't want to hear all this 'moral' crap from rattle either. Until he stops wearing his tennis shoes made in Taiwan by 11 year olds or that carpet he walks on...I don't want to hear about how it's morally wrong for two consenting adults to have their fun behind closed doors.

It was a story about a woman who clearly used him and treated him like crap and if you read the whole thread, you'll see that I gave him very good advice and included my email to show him where he could get more free advice about dating. I responded to him and helped him just as much if not more than any one else on here.

And my tongue in cheek advice still stands: he would have been better off getting a hooker to spend the night with while he was there. The other hooker he was with didn't even have sex with him! How could that make him feel more lonely? In fact, it would make him less lonely; at least the sex hooker wouldn't have lead him on and caused him to think that she's his one and only and true love. Think about it: he went there expecting to meet a woman to fall in love with in person but what he found was a free trip hooker who gave him the cold shoulder. At least with a real hooker, he would know that she's not a woman to fall in love with and his feelings wouldn't be hurt when she leaves.

If you guys have hang ups about sex or are too damn worried about offending someone by saying that Russian women use American guys for free trips and/or money, that's fine but don't include me in your hangups. I don't feel it necessary to include politically correct phrases such as 'not all Russian women are like this of course and I don't mean that they're all that way...I'm sure many of them are very honest and wonderful ladies...etc.." Get off the sensitive crap and just say what's on your minds. Geeeze! If one or two are offended by that, that's their problem, not mine.

And rob_we, the likelihood that there was just 'no chemistry' is wrong and proven by her pictures of other trips, her lies and excuses, and the fact that she denied this to him when he asked but still gave him the cold shoulder. If there was simply no chemistry, she would have had a heart to heart, honest talk with this guy and not continued the charade. Stop trying to make excuses for women all the time. Come to accept the fact that many women are low lifes who simply use men, deal with it.

My friend, James (real name Tom) is going to Russia in a couple months to meet someone too. I'm giving him the same advice: if she cold shoulders you, dump her immediately. Go out to dating agencies and call some escorts, might as well have a good time while you're there. Don't keep chasing or hanging on to her, don't let her use you and don't be just another gurly man patsy she can use. Dump her and have a good time. Leave her at the hotel or apartment and go out to clubs to meet other women. When it's over, it's over. If more men started standing up to women there would be less of this nonsense going on and more women would respect men for being men.

Hey rattle, some guys like hiring hookers and some guys don't. I don't flame you, do I? I respect your choice to not do so and your advice to this guy not to; how about respecting my choice and advice to him as well? There are two sides of the coin, my friend. Not all hookers are forced into it or drug addicted, many of them are just attractive women who enjoy sex. Women like it too, you know!!! Now, of course, I'm against women forced into it or drug addicted or whatever (see how I have to add the politically correct crap?) but I've only met one or two like that in my whole life and they were in T.J. I've been with whores everywhere from the Chicken Ranch in Vegas to Bangkok. In fact, two of my best friends were prostitutes; they were great gals and very fun to be with. One became a cheerleader for the Rams. I've also met many women forced into working at McDonald's too; I don't hear you crying about that.

Just don't try to lay your morals or trip on me. I don't lecture you, do I? Would you rather he sit there alone in his bedroom all night long while the trip hooker sleeps in her room that he's paying for? Would you rather he buy her all these gifts and get NOTHING? At least with a hooker, he'll get some good sex, good laughs, and NOT get his feelings hurt or hopes up. At least the hooker is honest and not scamming him!

In my day, I've been friends with and lived with all types of women: hookers, nude dancers, and even an adult film star. Don't lay your trips or high moral ground on these people. Many of them are good people. If you don't like their lifestyle, so be it. They're not hurting any body and enjoy what they do. It's immoral to critisize things and people you know nothing about and to try to prevent them from finding their own happiness in the world.

Lloyd


Posted by: FlashingEyes

rk288,

Welcome. You've done a good job just telling your story - what you know - what happened - what you were thinking. But of course even the best story is not as good as being there. Your basic question is that while you were there, you felt as if something was wrong, and you are asking advice as to what was wrong. There have already been a number of replies advocating reasonable theories as to what might have been wrong. Possibilities: maybe she wanted a free vacation (Jill, Conner, neil, rattlesnake, skooter), maybe she wasn't attracted to you (Jill, Jim, Lloyd, rob_we), maybe she is old-fashioned or shy (Jill, neil), maybe you caused the problems yourself (wavetossed, Jutman). The truth is it is not possible for any of us to know for certain what problems might have existed, or even if real problems did exist as opposed to you perceiving them. However, the most likely explanation is that some problems did exist and that the above four possibilities are the most likely.

Having said that, there are a few things I would like to go over from your story:

First, I think that a meeting after only two months of correspondence is quite a bit faster than most meetings between western men and former Soviet Union (FSU) women. Often, people will write for 6 months to a year before meeting. You can certainly understand that the possibility of intimacy is affected by the period of time that two people have actually been corresponding. After even very good correspondence and phone conversations for such a short time, I can understand why a woman might still see you as someone she's "just met" when you finally meet face to face, and not necessarily as an established "friend".

Next topic - it is always something worth paying attention to when someone you've just met has a liteny of problems - sick mother and daughter, trouble at work. However, she didn't ask for money, which is a good sign. All people have problems from time to time, so you should just pay attention to how she handles hers.

Related topic - but when I read your story a different way another possibility arises. Frankly, I was shocked that it took you so long to offer to pay for her ticket and expenses. Most FSU women can't afford to travel, and it is considered just normal common sense that a western man traveling to meet one will offer to pay for travel expenses if he requests she meet him anywhere but in her hometown. Was her liteny of problems just a way of telling you that she is a single mom sharing an apartment with her mother and that she has limited financial means?

Next topic - it always amazes me how people claim to act like a gentlemen but know little about the codes of classical gentlemanly conduct. One of the first rules is that a gentleman should never presume familiarity with a woman in his care - that means that it is beyond presumptuous to initiate physical contact, beyond the most sparing attention to her hand, such as a handshake or light kiss on the hand. The "friendly" hug, the "friendly" kiss on the cheek, the "friendly" kiss goodnight, the "touching as friends", the "cheek to cheek smiling", the "arms around the waist", the "holding hands", the "innocent hugs and kisses" are all appalling to the classical code of gentlemanly conduct for a lady under his care and protection. Now admittedly most American women won't expect a man to maintain such high standards, and in post 1960's sexual revolution America, such actions by a man towards a woman are acceptable even in polite society (as long as it's not MY wife or girlfriend that you're being such good "friends" with, having "innocent hugs and kisses" with...you get the picture). But even if you don't know the difference between what you are calling a "gentleman" and what a classic "gentleman" is, my guess is that most FSU women, well educated and surprisingly sophisticated in classic understanding, do.

Related topic - generally a good woman from the FSU will want to take some time getting to know you, and will very gradually introduce more affection into the relationship. Usually she will be sweet and polite and friendly, but at first she won't even feel comfortable sitting beside you, but instead will always want to face you - to keep some distance between you and to observe you. Then as you earn her trust, as she feels entirely comfortable in your presence, there will begin to appear the minutest signs of affection. And then the affection can increase dramatically. Of course there are short cuts. It is common in the Russian culture for a man to pressure women and to take advantage of any opportunity a woman leaves him, to a degree much greater than most western men are used to, and sometimes this technique works. But this method can also backfire, reminding them of traits they don't like in men they grew up with. On the first day of your meeting, you presumed to give her a hug and kiss on the cheek at the airport, which was allowed, but not returned as she clearly didn't feel it was entirely appropriate given that she needed some time to get to know you in person, look into your eyes, and study you, before she might feel comfortable with that sort of physical affection. Then you try for another hug a couple of hours later, and that night apparently were expecting a hug and kiss. It's easy to conclude that in the earning trust category and the feeling comfortable with you category, you lost some points.

Related topic - FSU women believe it's a very important sign - how a man pays attention to her needs. Initially, I thought you did a great service for yourself by getting up at 6am, making coffee, cleaning, and turning on classical music. But then you mentioned that "she had explained to me early in our correspondence that she was a 'night owl' and liked to sleep in in the morning," and that "she was always rather grumpy waking up as I knocked on her door saying 'I want to sleep.'" And then it all became very clear. Her desire in this case was extremely clear. The best way you could have showed her that you were thoughtful of her needs and desires would have been to let her sleep, to keep the music off, and if you had to be up a 6am go out and exercise or something but let her sleep! Instead you forced her to do what you wanted, and you believed that by doing all of this you were showing her what a "gentleman" you are! At first I wrote this before reading your reply to Jill's inquiry on another thread, and at the time I thought the shopping incident was also a good example of this theme, since in your initial letter it didnt's seem that while shopping, you let her feel as if she could get what she wanted, that by paying careful attention to her you discovered some things that she truly would love to have, and that these are what you bought; instead, it seems you took a rk288 knows best approach. However, i see in your other thread that after the long argument, you relented, allowed her some choice in what was bought, and in fact the other items that were added were things that she chose herself, like a practical sweater for cold Siberian winters! I also notice that your change in direction resulted in a change of direction for her too, and she requested to give you a kiss. My conclusion - once you started paying attention to her needs she felt much more comfortable giving you physical affection.

Next topic - her desire to have her picture taken in front of famous monuments and to have the photos processed before her return home was as simple as wanting to have the pictures to share with her daughter, and mother, and friends. Most Siberian women have never visited St. Petersburg and it is a big deal to go. People she knows and will tell about her trip when she returns will not be familiar with the sites so pictures are a huge help. I do hope you also took plenty of pictures together, as she should probably know that these are a necessary part of an eventual fiance visa application and embassy interview. If you didn't take these pictures together, it's a good sign she's not serious about you. I am surprised that she's been to Spain and Egypt, given that like most FSU women she appears to lack economic means for these trips. I would say that the most likely possibility is that she has had a (some) western boyfriend(s) in the past and these trips were financed by her ex(es). This theory could support the possibility that she was mostly interested in a free trip, but it could also support the explanation of why she was especially resistant to early familiarity between the two of you. If you're not the first western man she's had serious contact with, then possibly some of the romance is gone for her, if she's had bad experiences, and she wants to be especially careful before jumping into bed (figuratively and literally) with a new foreign man - she wants to feel she knows him well and that the relationship is serious and founded on solid ground not just a week of passion.

Next topic - it's interesting that as you continue to pressure her for affection, that she responds by wanting to know more about your past, even things you've written to her but now she wants to hear in your own voice, looking into your eyes. Frankly, I'm not surprised she honed in right away on your messy divorce. If I was a woman and your former wife had tried to kill you I think I'd be more than a little hesitent about you as well. I mean even though I'm sure it was entirely your former wife's lunacy and nothing to do with you, I'm sure you can understand how the possible future Mrs. rk288 might see that as a red flag.

Final topic - before reading your response to Jill's post, which for some reason you put on a different thread, I was goign to say that it's a very bad sign for you that affection didn't develop even at the end of your trip. I was going to continue by saying there's plenty of stories where there is considerable distance between a western man visiting a woman from the FSU during the first day, week, even more, but eventually she makes her decision, and everything changes. But in your case, it seemed from your first post that she didn't decide on you. However, it seems that her heart warmed somewhat on the final day, after you took her shopping and after a long argument actually let her buy things she wanted as opposed to what you thought was best. Then by her choice she wanted to give you a kiss. I would say that she sees the possibility of a good relationship with you. Where you go from here is largely up to you.


Posted by: sidney

RK288, I would have a good translator do some serious talking with her to determine what the problem could be. Someone other then her daughter, someone impartial. I'm only speculating with a bad past relationship but in any event it is something to consider. Do you want to deal with someone with excess baggage from past relationships that can and may well be an on going problem. There is more there then she is willing to share with you.
Sid


Posted by: FlashingEyes

To make it easier for everyone here is rk288's response to this thread, which he mistakenly put on a different thread:

rk288
10-14-2004 12:37 AM

St Pete continued...
Hey, you guys are wonderful! Thank you so much for your input...

I am posting this as a reply to Jill's letter. I received it first and she asked so questions that need to be answered. It was very late last night when I decided I had to finish and get some sleep for a 12 hour, very busy day at work. To everyone else, please don't think that I don't value your input greatly...it's just that I have limited time here and I have read every one of your replies. Thank you all again.

So, Jill, your questions lead me to finish my story that I fell asleep on last night.

Paragraph by paragraph then:

She was not insistent at all that I buy her anything. I am sure she would have settled for what she planned to wear to the ballet. In fact she told me that. It was my idea to get her a "simple black formal" for evening wear. She explained to me that no woman at the theater would be dressed like what I was thinking. I am just a silly American boy and all I know is that every woman here owns a "simple black formal" nothing expensive, just simple...language and culture being barriers acknowledged by both of us we met in the middle at a compromise.

She had picked out a very inexpensive sleeveless black dress with a pink turtle neck and black panty hose with a nice pair of european style shoes, again very inexpensive. She modeled everything for me...the ladies at the shop were of course happy to load up the dressing room with tons of choices...

When we finally compromised there was only the black skirt and the pink turtleneck on the counter. I was the one to ask if anything else was appealing to her to which she shyly replied that she could use a new sweater since Siberia is so cold. I was fine with that and she added a couple more things...when we finished there on the way out she thanked me and asked "may I kiss you"...my reply...obvoius...she is so sweet and apparently innocent...you wrote shy and old fashioned...I like to think that.

She did not seem interested inj money at all and if fact acted embarassed to discuss money. We had many intimate "cultural differences" conversations throughout our time together. I general I feel that she is not a "golddigger"...for example, when we went shoping for food for the apartment; I asked what she wanted (I had forgotten my list)...she picked bacon, cheese and pears. The only things we forgot were milk and butter. Much to my dismay since I brought her American popping corn which she absolutely loved and I taught her to make it the way my mother taught me...we were only missing the butter

She did not ever roll her eyes or yawn. We mutually pursued, initiated and revisited many conversations throughout our time together. So, yes, definitely we were both very "engaged in our interaction"...she always knew that she was in the presence of an English Gentleman and she expressed to me in a letter that i received when I got home that "We have lead unforgettable days in fine city, you have thought over all wonderfully and I was really very happy there"...she uses translation software on her computer so I haven't a clue what she actually wrote in Russian.

Her personality/interests/etc as you wrote did not change at all from our correspondence to our meeting in fact everything was reestablished and confirmed. I am a very active, energetic, outdoors type and I leave no slack on those issues with the women I write to. I have a 10 year old son who is a Boy Scout and we are active outdoors year round. In my correspondence I am very specific that I would not want to leave my wife at home while my son and I are out camping, fishing, hiking, skiing,golfing, etc...she is all over that and I believe her. She was a trooper during our visit, keeping up with me all the while walking in 4 inch platform boots which were killing her. She said it was "her style" and I could not convince her that I would buy her a pair of comfortable walking shoes...she was very stubborn about it. She had to be "in style" even though the soles of her shoes were torn away from the uppers. I told her she was a "stubborn Siberian"...she laughed and said "yes" and then held her head high. I had to admire her for that and I told her so.

We were 4 days together, 2 days travel. Lora will be 38 years old in November, she has a 14 year old daughter. I just turned 54 in September. Neither of us look or feel our age. I can still run 5 miles easily, I ski like the wind...used to do it for a living, probably still could if it wasn't for time and inclination...and I am an 18 handicap golfer among other things...

Re your second view, she wrote me a letter which i mentioned earlier that i received immediately upon my return home...the ride to the airport at 4:15 AM was another trying time which we may or may not want to discuss...anyhow she opens the letter "I deeply repent about my behaviour and I want to ask you about a pardon and understanding"...further in the letter..."You very good, kind and considerable person, you the remarkable person, you have made for me so much...I have understood, that in the world there are still good, brought up and attentive men." Further..."But you too hurried me with feelings and with plans for the further life. I cannot so, I tried to explain to you it, but my English so is poor...I am distinguished from many women, I know it, a lot of time is required that I was pulled to the man. You should understand me."

Back to St Pete...our last night we expressed mutual interest in each other again and I began a long dissertation in English about my knowledge of the process of a fiance visa. I don't think she undrestood all of it and that's where I feel that she was hurried. I speak a lot of "American English" without even knowing it and I'm sure most of it goes right over her head. One day I said to her in American "So, whaya wan do" she said "WHAT!!!" We both had a great gut laugh over that one...I wrote it down for her, that one amongst many others so she can give it back to her teenage daughter who constantly picks on her about her "English"...we had a lot of fun with "American English".:-)))

I agree, she probably wasn't using me for money. Here's one though...with all of the language barrier stuff...sometimes I think she "didn't understand" out of convenience...I told her in Quick American English that my son and I were going on a cruise over Easter and smilingly asked if she and her daughter would like to join us. She lit up like a Christmas tree and said "with pleasure"...no misunderstanding there right? What's up...???

I answered the next paragraph about her immediate letter to me already. Any other questions? The follow up letters are where I am stuck now. She immediately became very ill upon her arrival home. I of course was concerned and called her right away at the appropriate time, about 10:30 AM. She was very abrupt...as she can be from my experience...the conversation was less than 1 minute and I felt insulted. I wrote back to her that if I was sick or even dying hers was the first voice I would want to hear...I felt rejected. Shame on me...I wrote that I felt as if I was bothering her, that I was a nusience, a pest and taht if she wanted me to leave her alone that I would and I would be relieved by her honesty in telling me so.

Well there now I put my foot in my mouth didn't I??? Or not, I have mixed feelings. I taked with her very briefly on Sunday. She told me she was very ill and that she will see her doctor within the hour and go to the hospital. I am a medical professional but the language barrier did not allow me any insight into what was going on...

The most recent letter is from her daughter, last night. She is in the hospital with a kidney infection. She is doing well but must finish the course of treatment. Her daughter writes "She has told to write to you, that as soon as she will come back home,she will write to you necessarily and she transfers to you greetings."

It never ends...while we were in St Pete we had many "adventures" things that went wrong...she said many times "anything bad it is Russia" and, simply when things went wrong or were difficult " it is Russia"...I often explained to her that America is much different..."no problems, only solutions"...we did solve all of our problems there...I couldn't have done it without her and I told her so.

Yes, there were several pictures of both of us, arm in arm smiling and pictures of just me by all of the wonderful places we visited. And yes, she requested prints of them as well...I was watching. She did not tell me about her trips to Spain aand Egypt...the conversation always digressed when I asked...hmmm??? Still I wonder...

Again, she did not insist in any way about my gifts to her. The gifts at our arrival were very simple as I was advised by this website...peanut butter, popcorn, American coins, a book recently published by my uncle, a free book of prayers from my church and perfume and shower gel...no big deal but she was thrilled, genuinely.

Now give me your take...I appologize for the break in the communication but I was literally knoding at the computer last night. Close now too...

Thanks again to all of you...

Yours,

Russ


Posted by: rob_we

geeze LLoyd,

did I attack you personally? If i did I apollogize, hence I don´t know where exactly?! ...I tried to do an example, you didn´t want to see or accept. I mean you seem to be like a straight forward guy, so be it, I myself don´t have a problem with girls who work in night clubs and wherever else...
..and its not about morals. My point is just as i said:
To me it seems NOT PROOVED that she is, what is said here. It makes her to be no Hooker at all behaving like this. Actually I think this is quite an insult to say that, even if Hookers might be no bad girls too, but you would probably be quite angry with me if I would call you a sex-tourist even if these guys might be probably nice pals...
...and I think RK288 is quite a different guy then you. I can understand what he did .Fine with me. I can understand if you say "no chemistry but lets not spoil the trip and get someone else" Not my way but that was not my point at all.
I just think that someone is condemned here because of something that is no crime to me, and I think its fair to play "in dubio pro reo"... JMHO


Posted by: rob_we

Flash

well spoken.

Loyd
Flashs post is just another possible explanation. Actually after reading the second post of RK288 at least as considerable as the idea of "no chemistry". Just leave her the possibility too of being not so bad after all..


Posted by: rob_we

sid
you are right. good point too. If she is still not over with something and struggling ...

RK288
I think you should try to tell her, that you would be willing (if you really are) to go for this challenge and you are patient and willing to wait (if you are). After this you should again try to figure out WHAT really bothers her. I believe you could have a good chance to make her talk after a while. She is probably experienced in "doing everything on her own" and not so much in sharing her problems.
Its a tough thing for a 38 year old girl with a teenage kid to do everything on her own in siberia so she has to be strong every day...
That could explain both, her "behavior" when you met and the letter she sended afterwards... Just be sure that you are sure )
Otherwise you´ll make you both probably more unhappy than before...


Posted by: AngryFisherman

Lloyd, it was not my intention to flame you at all. I am just stating that you should be careful when passing advice when you do not know all the facts. Doing as you suggested will surely ruin the relationship.

I will not get into semantics with you. The mere fact that you state "Russian women" just stigmatizes the image of exactly that, Russian women. If you have read the various threads in this forum, you might discover that there is one thing that emerges all the time. That women in Russia are not that much different from women anywhere else, they come in all shapes and sizes - read into that whatever you will.

GirlieMan


Posted by: parasionok

rk288,

I think she is just a normal woman. Her behaviour seems quite normal to me. She is from Siberia, she is not 20, she has her past and life experience. Just some women need more time to become intimate and open up, and not only in Russia but anywhere in the world. Some women and men are very easy going and establish contact and open up very quickly, but not everybody is like this. When you see someone for the first time, sometimes he or she might be very different from what your mental picture of this person had been before the first meeting. It is normal I think. Maybe it is just her character. Maybe she could not explain properly. Maybe it was just a problem of misunderstanding. It doesnt make her a bad person. I think my mom would be more like her. Like she felt very uneasy when she first came to visit me and my bf. My mom and my bf had difficulties to communicate though I was there to translate. I had to explain so many things to her that she thought my bf did wrong.

As for the fact that she got ill or some of her family gets ill, I don't think it is in any way suspicious. My grandmother used to be sick almost all the time (she had 3 heart attacks). Also people in Russian are often very neglectful towards their health, and reluctant to go to the doctor or have regular health checks.

Anyway, I don't think she has done anything wrong. I would suggest you try to talk to her and ask her direct questions and talk about all your concerns. 6 days is definitely not enough time to get to know someone IMHO.


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Llloyd , I did not intend to flame you

Wussman


Posted by: James Riske

Hey I'm not upset with you guys at all. Don't think I'm flaming you or feel hurt, we're just guys having a couple beers, that's all! I'm not one of these flame war guys.

I still feel that this woman is playing the guy and pretending interest and is a professional dater. Actions speak louder than words. After she gave him the cold shoulder, he should have dumped her. But instead, he started showering her with gifts and showing off his money. And she shows that he's enamored with her and puppy dogging her. I've read all his latest posts and it's clear that she knows she has him snared and smells money. Men have a tendacy to overcomplicate things and over analyse things. The bottom line is that if she was interested enough in him, she would have accepted his kiss and hand holding. Any thinking beyond that is pointless.

Mark my words, this woman is not good for him and it will all come out eventually, even years from now.


So, now, she's reconsidering it all and realizing that she could pretend interest, come up with an excuse for her behavior and get more things from him. Whether it's trips or an actual marriage to a rich guy she can keep under her thumb. Her age and her daughter all come into play. She really doesn't like him but will settle on him to use him.

I guarantee that regardless of what she says, she really doesn't like him at all. The 'kiss close' is never wrong.

And now the poor guy is overthinking things (and trying to apply logic to a woman's actions), obsessing over her, over analysing her and her actions, and (sorry Jill) taking advice from a woman about dating and relationships with women.

How many of us have been there and how many times does it NOT work out? 100%. Iv'e found the old axiom to be true: If you suspect trouble and have to ask advice, it's already over.


The best thing to do, the manly thing to do, is to dump her and find someone else. There's plenty of fish in the sea my friend and this one is just using you.

LLOYD (not James, but on his computer)


Posted by: rk288

Thanks Jill for your direction on how this works...we continue on the same thread. Let me know if I got it right.

Back to your reply on the St Pete continued thread which I will ignore now that it has been added here...

Prevoius relationships: Married to the father of her daughter, lost one child at birth due to incompetent Russian physicians. When Russian economy went south her husband lost his work and all hope. He became an alcoholic. After much trial, suffering and pain she divorced him. She says he is dishonest and horrible. During one of our more intense conversations she said that she will sue him in court for abandoning his daughter. This conversation was about her coming to America where I had said that one problem could be her former husband and his rights to see his child. She obvoiusly understood since she answered in such a focused manner. As I wrote it was a very intense conversation and I think she felt that I wanted her to come to America right away...I didn't, I only spewed out to her my understanding of the process in American English. I think you probably got that...

Her father is a retired KGB Colonel...she had a sharp look in her eyes when she told me that...should I be worried? She also said that her father would help her with her former husband...hmmm...what kind of help? Her sister is a member of the police in Kemerovo and is studying to become a judge...

She led me to understand in our early letters that when they were married they lived in another city. Upon divorce, four years ago she moved to her home city with her daughter. They own a small apartment in Kemerovo. Aparently the former husband also moved back to Kemerovo but does not see or communicate with his daughter.

She says of course she has Russian male friends but they are just friends...

She says that she rents space in a shop and sells knitted goods. She has travelled twice since I have been writing to her "on business" to Moscow and Novosibirsk to make purchases for her business. Business is not good (i.e. her work troubles) since there is now much worldwide competition in Russia. That is credible to me...

Now, to the problem at hand...I cannot reasonably go to Siberia to visit her!! She knows this and I will explain. My work only allows me 3 weeks vacation per year. I have my son and 2 of those weeks are his during the summer. That leaves me one week...seven days...I did look into flights to Kemerovo, of course as I was well advised to visit her in her home town. The travel time kills it! For example, for the time of the St Petersburg visit, 4 days...to go to Kemerovo I would have had an 8 or 12 hour visit!!! The rest of the 6 days would have been consummed by travel...absurd...out of the question...we discussed that option and settled on St Pete. I know a lot of this thread says I need to go to her home but my work makes it impractical. Maybe later if we really hit it off and get married or something like that I could take a leave of absence for 2 weeks...that is what it would take...

I have a friend in Florida who married a Siberian woman and that is what they will do...they will go back to her home for a Russian wedding for an extended stay. He was able to meet her in Siberia however.

We wrote to each other starting in early June this year. The letters and phone calls were good enough for both of us to pull up and go to St Pete for a meeting.

I spoke at length with her daughter tonight on the phone. She says she is well and recovering in the hospital...there aren't many 14 year olds in America that would talk the way she has with me on the phone. We speak in English and Russian, teach each other English and Russian, laugh and joke, question and answer...


Posted by: Jill

Yeah, from teh information that you have given, I am leaning toward both Parasionok's view (that she is a normal, middle aged woman from a small town in Siberia) and sidney's view (that she may have had some bad experience in the past that has made her more reluctant to jump into a relationship). From what you have said, she still seems to be interested in continuing the relationship. If she hadn't been attracted to you at all, she probably wouldn't have gone through the trouble of writing, getting her daughter to speak to you, etc. She would have tried to end contact. I think.

And I don't really see much reason to believe that she used you for a free vacation. The only indication is that she has previously taken at least two vacations. Lots of people take vacations--nothing wrong with that. Don't know who funded these trips, though. But it could be perfectly innocent. You did say that she also wanted pictures of you printed (not just the "glamour shots" of herself). AND! It seems that you were the one who suggested going to St. Pete (given the logistical problems of visiting her hometown). So she is also innocent there. And it is not surprising that she couldn't afford the trip.

So it doesn't really sound too bad to me. Continue the correspondance and remember that you are still in the process of getting to know each other. You don't have to make any life altering decisions at this point. Every relationship goes at its own pace.


Posted by: rob_we

rk288
I was talking to my lady about your story. She told me exactly the same as Jill posted before! (and gave me a little hard time because "we western guys always think we understand russian girls so well" ). She convinced me that its very likely that your lady really likes you (as para posted). I appologize for my post before (telling she probably doesn´t like you at all). I should have talked to my lady before about this....sorry.


Posted by: Menehune

in my opinion, she did not travel to spain alone. i've been to spain 3 times, cordoba, seville and barcenlona. prices there are comparible to the US. i highly doubt it that she can afford to spain on her salary if she had problems just paying for medical bills and had to borrow it from a friend.


Posted by: ConnerVT

Jill, you are looking at this as a person with a normal understanding of dating and relationships. You are not considering the other major mitigating factor -- international dating via the Internet.

Unfortunately, the tale that rk tells is not a new one. It's one that has been told a number of times on other Internet forums, as well as told to me by my personal friends (including a RW interpreter, guilty of it herself). There ARE women who use WM for vacations, either in other cities and countries, or sometimes in their own town.

Even if this wasn't her goal, there certainly wasn't much spark in the initial meeting. The whole process, from meeting, to bonding together, the wait for visas, the 'big move', and developing a life as a family takes so much effort and commitment by two people (especially of different nationalities). The first meeting, although awkward, should be the EASIEST part! From what I've read, it doesn't look as it will get any easier, and there is already doubt at least on one side.

rk, move on and find another.


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
There ARE women who use WM for vacations, either in other cities and countries, or sometimes in their own town.


Conner, I know that this happens--I've heard about it, too. But I just don't see any hard evidence that this particular woman is doing it. So she has taken two previous vacations--I don't think this necessarily means anything. It might, but I'm not convinced yet.

The one thing that worries me, however, is that it seems that the poster has already invited her on another vacation.

Quote:
I agree, she probably wasn't using me for money. Here's one though...with all of the language barrier stuff...sometimes I think she "didn't understand" out of convenience...I told her in Quick American English that my son and I were going on a cruise over Easter and smilingly asked if she and her daughter would like to join us. She lit up like a Christmas tree and said "with pleasure"...no misunderstanding there right? What's up...???


Here--this worries me. But is may not mean anything. After all, HE is the one who made the offer. She did not ask or insist.

But still, it muddies the waters....There is the possibility that she is stringing him along so that she can go on this second vacation with him....But we just don't know that yet.

For now, I am going to stick with my last post. She's shy and for some reason hesistant to jump into the deep end of a relationship.


Posted by: rob_we

Jill,
what gives me personally not a too bad feeling about this is the fact that she behaved quite consequent to me. I think a pro would be more "aggressive" as I said before. Where would be the problem of kissing him and pretend something if she would be a pro. With her behavior she would much more threaten her possibilities to travel than to improve her chances. And again, would this behaviour of her be so suspicious if she was a WE or american girl?
I think no.... So where is the point????


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
Where would be the problem of kissing him and pretend something if she would be a pro. With her behavior she would much more threaten her possibilities to travel than to improve her chances


This is a good point


Posted by: wavetossed

Menehune:

I don't see how you can make such a comment about Spain based on a few visits to the big cities. We Europeans usually visit Spain on fully catered tour packages which include airfare, transfer to the hotel, the hotel room and 3 meals a day. I looked at the website for www.kuda.ru a Russian travel agency with offices in several cities including Novosibirsk, the major city near the lady in question. They offered 1 week tour packages to a 3 star hotel in Spain for 1040 euros. That is well within the ability of a Russian of her age who saves for a couple of years for a dream vacation. If she took a girlfriend along it would be 100 Euros cheaper to share the room. And I didn't have time to hunt down the cheapest tour available. I know that these package tours often go on sale for half price closer to the travel date if they haven't been selling well. I also know that since 9/11 the European travel industry has had some difficulty in forward planning because people's holiday buying habits have changed and they are not booking as far in advance as usual. Also a lot of people are buying holidays closer to home so they can travel by car or train rather than flying. So this exact same tour may be on sale for a few lucky people at the price of 520 Euros.

ConnerVT
You are not considering the number 1 major mitigating factor. RK has come back and posted a second message giving much more information which considerably changes the picture he gave in the first message. I think he has a much better handle on this relationship than any of us were able to guess from the first message.

Jill
I think you are right that RK isn't being terribly wise about this. Unless he's suggesting a river cruise in Russia. I think any woman who would prefer St. Petersburg over Moscow would probably enjoy a river cruise through the historic Golden Ring and at the end, RK can accompany her back home before flying off again.

Rob_we
Good point. Even in the first message her behavior is that of a person who isn't sure what she wants, who is undecided. A pro-traveller or a prostitute would put on more of an act.


Posted by: parasionok

Wave,

good point. It is very affordable for anybody in Russia to go on vacation in Spain or Turkey or Egypt. What people usually do to cut the cost of the tour is they travel to Moscow from their native cities and from there you can travel twice as cheap to anywhere in the world. Airfare or trainfare to Moscow are very cheap. I remember when I went to greece with my girlfriend. I travelled from Germany and she flew from Moscow. I paid twice more than she paid. My parents are university professors and their salaries are 200 USD a month. They go on holiday abroad every summer.

If you go on holiday anywhere in the world, you would be surprised how many Russians are everywhere. Almost as many as the Germans


Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:
Originally posted by wavetossed
ConnerVT
You are not considering the number 1 major mitigating factor. RK has come back and posted a second message giving much more information which considerably changes the picture he gave in the first message. I think he has a much better handle on this relationship than any of us were able to guess from the first message.

Usually the first thoughts that a person offers are the most telling. After getting some feedback, a story will then change, being colored and given the spin the author wishes. Especially when wish fulfilment is beginning to take hold.

It doesn't get any easier as a relationship progresses. Both people really need to be gung ho to make it work in these situations. It may work with the girl down the street, but not over thousands of miles.


Posted by: rob_we

conner
this might be true if you are understanding each other propperly, maybe. That is never so between different cultures to my experience. And due to your post: Are there no misunderstandings possible, but only bad people or bad relationships?


Posted by: neil277

Hi,

I have to agree with Conner this lady is bad news and this guy should move on.

This lady has used puppy dog eyes and has taken money from this guy without asking for it, for me she is a pro and this guy needs to move on.

Conner is right you know within 15 mins if this is the person for you and can i ask this guy who has this problem could he please post a photo of this lady because i need to know why she is so special.

There is so much good fish in the sea.

Neil


Posted by: parasionok

It doesn't get any easier as a relationship progresses. Both people really need to be gung ho to make it work in these situations. It may work with the girl down the street, but not over thousands of miles.

If you decide to have a relationship with a girl who is thousands miles away, you usually have a good reason to do so. Those who are complaining and scared about being scammed over thousands miles relationshp, normally have a huge problem to find someone in their neighbourhood. Sorry guys, no offence. I myself belong to the comminity of people who are looking for their partner on the internet. I must confess. Being prettry, intelligent, well positioned workwise girl, with no visa or money problems, I was encountered people I was not able to build up a normal relationship with. I was using internet just to communicate with people, and one day he came, just like that... He was there and I spent hours talking to him. He wanted to meet me in person, I was reluctant to meet him in Frankfurt even though it was just 2 hours car drive for him. He came and I was blown away. He was very reserved I was totally in love. I suffered, I was ready to dive into the realtionship. Again I thought I was eccentric, and I was in a hurry. He was distant for whatever reasons but then we knew we clicked. We are very happy together, no matter whether i work unusual hours or he is not still divorced. We are happy together, and we are working on how to be together. He has done impossible though i think I wont qualified for a life partner for Rob Ohio or any other Rob in the world. I qualifiy as a life partner for him. This is what matters.


Posted by: rob_we

neil
never was about fishing for me actually.... fish start to stink after a while being fished.....


Posted by: rk288

I just tried to send a rather lenghtly reply with a photo attachment and got a message that the attachment was too large. HELP!!! Is everything I wrote lost or is it still out there somewhere??? Please advise...it's too late now and I have to work 14 hours tomorrow...

Russ


Posted by: rk288

Hi guys,

Thanks again...hey ConnerVT, I was born in Vermont and my friend in Florida is also a Vermonter! Small world...

Anyhow, more background...I have been doing this internet dating thing for over 4 years now. Many, many friends but no matches. As I said before I'm looking for an outdoorsey woman who will happily go with my son and I on any or all of our outings and I expect that if God is willing I will be doing this stuff that he and I love until I am well into my seventies because I love him and I have loved the stuff we do since I was his age. My Dad did those things with me until he died at 78...

This Siberian woman happens to be the only person on the planet so far that I have found who also loves the things we do. She restated it a few times during our meeting and I can tell she's not lying about it because of her aforementioned stamina during our many (I think we laughingly counted 34) adventures in St Pete...she proved to be a real trooper there...no lightweight whinning wimp, up for every challenge. As one of you astutely wrote she has to be tough to go it alone with a teenage daugher in Siberia. I have corresponed with other fsu women her age that are still living with their parents and their children (some 21 years old) sleep in the same room with thier grandparents...by the way, Lora's parents live 10 minutes walk from her apartment...

I see her as an independent businesswoman in a tough market by todays standards in Russia. Listen to this; she tells me that President Putin is funding a program for his people that will help them to advace themselves in the new found Russian business world. She tells me that she has signed up for it and it includes English language study and the possiblility for a visa to study in America...any comments?

I am not looking for a beauty queen here, just a stong personality with similar interests to mine...I'll try to post a picture as requested.

Oh, one more thing...I joined this site a few days ago and I am having trouble with my photos. I have emailed the contact us link twice but have no reply from them. What's up with that?

Yours,

Russ


Posted by: rk288

Hi guys,

Thanks again...hey ConnerVT, I was born in Vermont and my friend in Florida is also a Vermonter! Small world...

Anyhow, more background...I have been doing this internet dating thing for over 4 years now. Many, many friends but no matches. As I said before I'm looking for an outdoorsey woman who will happily go with my son and I on any or all of our outings and I expect that if God is willing I will be doing this stuff that he and I love until I am well into my seventies because I love him and I have loved the stuff we do since I was his age. My Dad did those things with me until he died at 78...

This Siberian woman happens to be the only person on the planet so far that I have found who also loves the things we do. She restated it a few times during our meeting and I can tell she's not lying about it because of her aforementioned stamina during our many (I think we laughingly counted 34) adventures in St Pete...she proved to be a real trooper there...no lightweight whinning wimp, up for every challenge. As one of you astutely wrote she has to be tough to go it alone with a teenage daugher in Siberia. I have corresponed with other fsu women her age that are still living with their parents and their children (some 21 years old) sleep in the same room with thier grandparents...by the way, Lora's parents live 10 minutes walk from her apartment...

I see her as an independent businesswoman in a tough market by todays standards in Russia. Listen to this; she tells me that President Putin is funding a program for his people that will help them to advace themselves in the new found Russian business world. She tells me that she has signed up for it and it includes English language study and the possiblility for a visa to study in America...any comments?

I am not looking for a beauty queen here, just a stong personality with similar interests to mine...I'll try to post a picture as requested.

Oh, one more thing...I joined this site a few days ago and I am having trouble with my photos. I have emailed the contact us link twice but have no reply from them. What's up with that?

Yours,

Russ


Posted by: Missouri

Russ- I am leaning on the side that- You've got a lady that is protecting herself and her emotions- because she is not open with her feelings- for some reason- you said she was divorced 4 years ago, she wants to sue her ex for abandoning his daughter- I believe that , because women are emotional, and other reasons- that it takes some women a VERY LONG time to get over the divorce. Because she wants to sue, that indicates she wants justice, or she is still angry- (Heck, I don't know what her reason is) Jill- Would you agree with this?- "the very long time to get over a divorce".

Her stubbornness- You mentioned this twice- She doesn't want to buy/have/store/launder/take care of- the fancy black dress that you want to buy her. WHAT IN THE WORLD IS WRONG WITH THAT??? Maybe she is frugal!!! If that is true you've got a great catch! By the way what's her address?- I'm looking for a woman like that! Just kidding!!!

I have 2 opinions- 1) You are going to have to be patient. You will have to discuss with her how long your relationship with her is going to take before you can pull your Siberian beauty to the USA.

2) Love is patient... love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1Corinthians 13:4,7

Russ- I wish you the best, and keep writing.

I see myself alot like you- that's one reason I'm interested. -Scott


Posted by: Missouri

Hey- You said you get 3 weeks vacation- 2 weeks is with your son- so you only have 1 week of personal time so you can court your gal- Why can't you take the whole 3 weeks and take your son to Siberia with you??? I'm sure you've already considered this.

Scott


Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel,

I,m sorry i printed this on the wrong page been working to much.

First i would like to say Russia is not such a bad Country and most Russian are very kind and very generous people, its the few bad apples who cause us problems not just for the men but for the women to.

I feel when a man has made a commitment the the lady should make a commitment to and not talk to other men on the net who are looking for a wife the same goes for the men to.

I ask the question i hope your not talking to other men not because i'm jealous but because i'm very serious and want our relationship to work its the only way for a good loving relationship to work being so far apart.

If a lady is talking to many men knowing you have booked flight then she is not serious about relationship, i spoke to Frank who runs a marriage agency in the Ukraine and he told me the pit falls if you book flight and talk to a lady and become very serious she must break contact with any men she was talking to before and that goes for the man to and he blanks there profile for this reason.

Why do men think the Russian lady is soft and needs protecting they don't they were doing ok before you turned up so don't waste your money.

I'm not gready man or selfish man i know my lady has very old second hand computer and i asked her to help me with my small buisness and in turn i will buy new computer and all gadgets and one years free internet services so know bills to her telephone i told her just business to help me.

Within 2 mins this lady e.mail me and tell me Neil i don't want computer or free service its very rude to take gifts of men if i was your wife its different but i never accpet money from men i have my own money, my head was shocked and found it hard to understand it was buisness but i understand now.

This lady helps me advertise in Belarus because its much cheaper than London and does not want paying.

I would like to say to this guy the money you spent was to much this lady will be back and then will want more from you and if you marry this lady the big problems will start, i have spoken to Frank in the Ukraine and when Russianblacklist.com was live i spoke to Bob and he told me Neil spend very little on the Russian women and then you will find out if she likes you, i thought what a tight man but he was right in life and thats why i follow Bobs plan and hope i found my soul mate in life and never have to look back in life.

I'm honest and will never play games in life and this is all a man wants from a woman to.

Today i got small gift from my lady a card, biscuits and chocolates for me this was very special and i like very much.

Regards,

Neil


Posted by: neil277

Hello Panel

I see her as an independent businesswoman in a tough market by todays standards in Russia. Listen to this; she tells me that President Putin is funding a program for his people that will help them to advace themselves in the new found Russian business world. She tells me that she has signed up for it and it includes English language study and the possiblility for a visa to study in America...any comments?

Siberia is under Mr Putin and siberia is a very poor country but the money spent was far to much for this lady.

This is my Views.

Regard,

Neil.


Posted by: James Riske

I have to side with my live-in bum friend, Lloyd

She displayed low interest level in you and that's all you need to know. It's all pretend on her part from now on.

I know you will do everything you can to avoid that and not believe and rationalize her behavior but low interest is low interest and you were dumped the minute she set eyes on you.

Sorry. I don't care what has happened since then, she is not really interested in you in a romantic way. Women set the tone in a relationship and control it from the very beginning and by her acting cold, not even holding your hand or touching you, and not kissing you after days of dating? She is not interested in you and is only now playing you because you have dough.

Don't mean to insult you and mean this in the best way possible but it's very obvious to anyone with any experience in women. If she was interested in you, she would have been all over you right from the beginning BEFORE you started flashing around your money and showing her how desperate and easily manipulated you are, my friend.

May not happen in a year, or two or three but you're heading off the cliff with this one.

James (NOT Lloyd)


Posted by: rob_we

rk288
Just go for what your intuition tells you. You went quite a way. A "problematic" girl in the beginning can turn out to be the most wonderful girl after some time. If shes not "easy going" in the beginning then she probably might not be if problems arise later and stick to you ant to what she had decided to go for..
If she is complicated than you have a lot to discover. To my personal view, you seem to be a quite rich personality, and a caring type. From all you wrote you seem to have warm and tender emotions towards her. If I did not understand you wrong, you could consider her to be THE girl for you, if she is willing to decide for you. If its so, I personally don´t see a lesser chance for you both than for lots of other biligual couples here and everywhere, and I wish you both my very best.
Nobody give guarantiees in life thats true, but trying makes us wise, and maybe happy!


Posted by: rk288

Well it's several days now and still no letter. I spoke with Lora's daughter on Tuesday and she says her mom is still in the hospital, feeling ok and recovering. That's all the news that's fit to print...

Russ


Posted by: James Riske

My God...how pitiful. I'm almost embarrassed to be a man. Are there any men left anymore?

Oh God..two whole days! And no letter from the woman I've spent thousands of dollars on and countless days being her butler and I'm just hoping for the chance to hold her hand!

Oh God....Please allow me the GIFT of providing for her and her daughter and giving them everything I own and have worked so hard for...oh please...please..


GEEEEEEEZEEEE! No wonder women use men. When they lay down in front of you and beg, what else are they for?

Barf bag, please!


LLOYD


Posted by: rob_we

LLoyd
by the way... did you find your soulmate already?


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by James Riske
My God...how pitiful. I'm almost embarrassed to be a man. Are there any men left anymore?

Oh God..two whole days! And no letter from the woman I've spent thousands of dollars on and countless days being her butler and I'm just hoping for the chance to hold her hand!

Oh God....Please allow me the GIFT of providing for her and her daughter and giving them everything I own and have worked so hard for...oh please...please..


GEEEEEEEZEEEE! No wonder women use men. When they lay down in front of you and beg, what else are they for?

Barf bag, please!


LLOYD



Unfortunately, there aren't very many left. Sadly, when a guy has oneitis and is in denial he cant even hear the pearls of wisdom. Worse off, he gets advice that tells him she might be interested when its blatenly clear this woman took him for a ride.

RK-- When a lady will not return a kiss at the end of a date it is a powerful form of non verbal communication. You FELT the communication and your confusion arises because you refuse to hear what this woman is saying.... She is NOT romantically interested in you.

Your first mistake was not meeting her in her home town. Your second mistake was not recognizing that she wasnt romantically interested and move on to find someone who potentially is interested in you.

You dont seem to understand that when a woman is into you and very attracted to you, they make it unmistakably clear to you. When a man is confused about what is going on.... its only the man who is confused. The worst possible thing you can do with ANY woman is try to BUY her approval, interest and attraction by taking her shopping or out on a expensive date or shower her with gifts.

Trust me, if Lora were into you big time she would have kissed you without the slightest bit of hesitation.


Posted by: rob_we

One day she just clicked me while I was chatting on some site.
She was fascinating and intelligent. Witty, educated and angry.
I fell in love with her on the net after a few long conversations.
With her and her picture. It was very special. Her face was half covered by her hair. Her eyes were sparkling on this photo together with her smile. Just the face...no body...no hands. She was there on this site every day and we chatted from 7:30 to midnight or later, every day. I began to miss her during the day, and i felt awful when i couldn´t make it 7:30 sharp to be on the machine. After a month or so I asked her to meet me. She was russian but lived only 2 hours away from me. So it would be easy to see each other. She refused.. She said she was burnt before badly. She didnt want to meet anyone now. So we continued to talk. And when she was away or had to leave to meet someone, I felt desperate and empty. I chatted with her when she was angry, desperate, happy, sad. Day by day. Then somehow, I can´t even remember exactly we agreed to meet. She gave me her number. I didn´t call. I was afraid to call and to loose her. My picture of her. Maybe it would be the wrong situation?...but then we met. Amazing. Nothing vanished, a lot was added. After some weeks she moved in with me in my house. No, to be exact she just stayed. I was happy. Then , three month later, all of a sudden she got angry quite often. She didn´t respond on my "I love you". She was on the phone. For hours. It was her ex. The guy she was with for quite some time. The guy she loved. She was talking to me, telling me she is still loving him. Not me. Several times. She was telling me twice a week that she will leave me and go back to him...we were screaming at each other. I was desperate. ...but she didn´t leave. Not a single time.I was thinking if I should wait, i was angry and I was frustrated. SMS bombardment of her Ex, e-mails all over ...again phone. ...waiting, arguments, tears. I stood up every morning, more tired then the night before... waiting...screaming...waiting...screaming.
I loved her, i think I really found that out in these very days. Not when we were so much in love,after we met, no, just there!
Then, all of a sudden all changed. She changed, she started to talk, so many days later.. WHY she was so desperate, WHY it took her so long to free herself from her Ex, WHY she was unsure to be with me, she explained me all this and why she loves ME. She is strong and ever was. She had learned to settle things with herself, on her own. Just by blocking out anyone else. I misinterpreted. I tried to get things out of her. Things she could not provide at this very time. She reacted by pushing me away. As hard as she could. I don´t love you.

Now she tells me every day so many times that she loves me. Her eyes sparkle sometimes like on our first date. The other guy is history. Past. Gone. Shes with me. 100%. I love her even more than before.

..and I´m gonna marry her soon....


Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
One day she just clicked me while I was chatting on some site.
She was fascinating and intelligent. Witty, educated and angry.
I fell in love with her on the net after a few long conversations.
With her and her picture. It was very special. Her face was half covered by her hair. Her eyes were sparkling on this photo together with her smile. Just the face...no body...no hands. She was there on this site every day and we chatted from 7:30 to midnight or later, every day. I began to miss her during the day, and i felt awful when i couldn´t make it 7:30 sharp to be on the machine. After a month or so I asked her to meet me. She was russian but lived only 2 hours away from me. So it would be easy to see each other. She refused.. She said she was burnt before badly. She didnt want to meet anyone now. So we continued to talk. And when she was away or had to leave to meet someone, I felt desperate and empty. I chatted with her when she was angry, desperate, happy, sad. Day by day. Then somehow, I can´t even remember exactly we agreed to meet. She gave me her number. I didn´t call. I was afraid to call and to loose her. My picture of her. Maybe it would be the wrong situation?...but then we met. Amazing. Nothing vanished, a lot was added. After some weeks she moved in with me in my house. No, to be exact she just stayed. I was happy. Then , three month later, all of a sudden she got angry quite often. She didn´t respond on my "I love you". She was on the phone. For hours. It was her ex. The guy she was with for quite some time. The guy she loved. She was talking to me, telling me she is still loving him. Not me. Several times. She was telling me twice a week that she will leave me and go back to him...we were screaming at each other. I was desperate. ...but she didn´t leave. Not a single time.I was thinking if I should wait, i was angry and I was frustrated. SMS bombardment of her Ex, e-mails all over ...again phone. ...waiting, arguments, tears. I stood up every morning, more tired then the night before... waiting...screaming...waiting...screaming.
I loved her, i think I really found that out in these very days. Not when we were so much in love,after we met, no, just there!
Then, all of a sudden all changed. She changed, she started to talk, so many days later.. WHY she was so desperate, WHY it took her so long to free herself from her Ex, WHY she was unsure to be with me, she explained me all this and why she loves ME. She is strong and ever was. She had learned to settle things with herself, on her own. Just by blocking out anyone else. I misinterpreted. I tried to get things out of her. Things she could not provide at this very time. She reacted by pushing me away. As hard as she could. I don´t love you.

Now she tells me every day so many times that she loves me. Her eyes sparkle sometimes like on our first date. The other guy is history. Past. Gone. Shes with me. 100%. I love her even more than before.

..and I´m gonna marry her soon....



Good luck and hope it turns out well for you.

You are going to marry someone who has, at a minimum, been emotionally unfaithful to you? How do you know there wasnt more going on that just telephone and emails? You dont. It would be one thing if she was struggling with her ex and she lived alone or with roomates. In a case like that, there isnt any real foul unless both you had agreed to see each other exclusively. When your partner moves in with you, you have a right to expect that person to be faithful to you. Emotional infidelity is every bit as bad as sexual infidelity.

If it would have been me. I would have dumped her. Any woman that tells you she is in love with another man while she shares your bed with you lacks integrity. What you have done is by your actions told her that her behavior is acceptable and ok.

Again, good luck but boy, I would have told her she needs to move out.


Posted by: rob_we

RobOhio
I found someone I can love. I found someone who can love me. She prooved this to me by doing what she did, nothing else. I found someone I was looking for. I did not know and understand lots of things. I di