The economics of Russian women seeking Western or American husbands - Russian Ukrainian Belarus Travel Music Woman Dating News

	The Russian Meeting Place: A place to meet people and talk about all things Russian... International Discussions about Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Travel, Music, Russian News, Ukrainian culture, Belarusian Dating, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kiev and other intelligent topics about life in the former Soviet Union.

Pages: 1

The economics of Russian women seeking Western or American husbands
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: Khashyar

Hello Everyone,

A visitor to our forum wrote me an email regarding whether Westerners are perceived by Russians and residents in the former Soviet Union as "buying Russian women" because of the real possibility of a dramatic improvement of their lifestyle and economic conditions if they marry a Westerner and move West.

So, I think that some of the questions that this person was wondering about are:

1) Do Russian people feel any guilt that their economic situation contributes to some of their Russian women wanting to marry a Western man.

2) Is there a perception in Russia that Western men are "buying" Russian women by their wealth.

3) How much of a factor is economics in a Russian woman's decision to marry someone from the former Soviet Union...

The person was cautious about starting this thread because they didn't want to begin any flaming discussions

But I think that it can be a stimulating and interesting topic, and I trust that we can voice our different viewpoints in a way where we can all learn...

Khashyar

Posted by: Jill

I wrote about my husband's views on another thread, but I will briefly recap. In general, he has no opinions for or against R/UW marrying Western men. However, when he sees a relationship which, in his opinion, is clearly a money deal (such as when he sees a 19 year old UW with a 50 year old AM--which you see all the time in Kiev), then yes. He feels this man is essentially "buying" this woman and this makes him very ashamed of his country and of the fact that such women are so willing to sell themselves.

But he doesn't think this about all UW-AM relationships. Two of our closest friends in Kiev actually are a UW-AM couple and he would NEVER think that of them.

To answer your questions:

1) Do Russian people feel any guilt that their economic situation contributes to some of their Russian women wanting to marry a Western man.

No. It's not the the economy in such cases, it's a lack of morals. Not all poor women become prostitutes. (My husband's opinion--and again, ONLY applying to situations where the woman's ONLY interest in the man is financial gain). When I say that husband feels shame, it's not for the economic situation of the country, but for the immorality (in his opinion) on the part of women willing to sell themselves.

In other cases (such as when the RW is interested in more than the WM's wallet)--well, why should there be any guilt? Over what?

In addition, if you remember the propiska system of the USSR, then you know that this kind of "migration by marriage" has a very long history in this part of the world. It is essentially the same thing, only now it has become international and it is for a visa, not a propiska.

2) Is there a perception in Russia that Western men are "buying" Russian women by their wealth.

Sometimes.

Yes, my husband does feel a sense of shame when he sees SOME UW-AM couples, but it really depends. And as he doesn't generally know the people involved or anything about their realtionship, it is probably a somewhat unfair assumption on his part. Maybe it just gives him an excuse to quote Beloe solntse pustini, "Za derzhavu obidno."

3) How much of a factor is economics in a Russian woman's decision to marry someone from the former Soviet Union...

It depends. For some women, it's a big factor. For others, not a factor at all. This answer is based on women I know who have either been in relationships with a western man, or who are seeking one.

So, it's very individual and there's really no "yes or no" answer to any of these questions. Western-FSU relationships come in all shapes and sizes. And I think most FSU people realize that--at least the ones I know. I'm sure there are some closed minded people, however, as there are in any country.

It seems to me (and I could be wrong), but most of the negative perceptions are actually on the American side. More Americans probably perceive AM as "buying" RW, than Russians do. At least that is what I've gathered from reading other discussions on this board where people have talked about their problems with their friends' and family's stereotypes of RW.

And, you know, the issue isn't necessarily confined to Russian woman-Western man relationships. You can see it sometimes in Russian woman-Russian man relationships. Check out some of these sleezy, old mafia guys and their barely legal model girlfriends. Aren't those women essentially selling themselves as well? And such women are generally VERY much admired by their friends. So this is interesting. If a RW "sells" herself to a RM, is this more socially acceptable than "selling" herself to a AM? I don't know. I've never thought about that before and, hence, have never asked anyone their opinions. I wonder

Although the difference may be that what's going on in such cases is more obvious, and therefore there's no question about what is motivating whom. Whereas as in RW-AM relationships, it's almost never really so cut and dry.

Just thinking out loud here...

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

In response to the question -

Is there a perception in Russia that Western men are "buying" Russian women by their wealth?

My Gf told me that her work collegues have asked her what job I do as they assume I own a business or am a boss so the implication of these questions is that I am somehow buying a relationship ( I am an office worker - not a boss) .

I also picked up some element of hostility to my visits to Ukraine - despite the fact that my gf is 31 and I am 41 , some of her brother in laws friends really do not like English men - I only picked this up after buying some snacks for a meal in a cafe - there must have been 8 of us there - one of the guys decided to tap out the ash of his cigarrette into the snacks I had bought for the group - when we got back to the flat I asked my gf what all that was about and she said that he was just being friendly.( Maybe I am wrong and this is a ukrainian custom which i have not heard of yet.) But the impression remained that my presence in the Ukraine was at best an emabarrasment or at worst cause for more than a little suspicion.

In relation to the question -

How much of a factor is economics in a Russian woman's decision to marry someone from the former Soviet Union -?

I asked my gf whether economics had a bearing on our relationship ( as I do not attract women in England why should I suddenly become an overnight success in the Ukraine )
she told me that econmics did have a bearing - the town she lives in is poor , her job is low paid and her chances of improving her life economically are severly constrained due to the circumstances of her birth.She also said that she wanted a better life forherself
and any child she might have ( hopefully with me ).

I know from this sort of answer most guys would walk ( or even run away ) but I do not think that she is a scammer or a gold digger ( I have told her that I am also poor like her and that my life is ordinary ) and she is not after a visa as we have agreed to live in Kiev should we find life in England too tough.

Rattle

Posted by: BradIL

Jill & rattlesnake---

Well done!!!

The above posts are well-thought and well written. I'd like sit with them for a bit before I comment further.

Again, well done you two....

Posted by: Jutman

To my knowledge a major part of the ladies who leave Russia and otehr FSU are well-educated women. If they have stayed, they would have after got nice life after local standards, some even after internatioal standards.

Few days ago, my wife told me a story from a Russian newspaper where the government told that the life abroad is so bad and boring, and because of the situation in Russia it will be challeging = not boring. If poeple return, there will very little paperwork to do. !!!

Posted by: wavetossed

I don't think that Russians see money in the same way that we do nor do they see the process of buying/selling in the same way. Their experience of both these things is different from ours in the west. I can't really pin this down but I know that just about every aspect of economic life in Russia is different from the same parts of life in the UK. They few similarities come down to things like buying vegetables in a street market or that fact that money is made of paper and metal.

In addition, the Russian experience of things like slavery, both in modern times and in their history, is different from the west. People in Russia were never bought and sold like cattle. The two main types of slavery were the serfdom of the Russian empire, but even though the serfs were owned by nobles, the land was owned by the serfs and they had rights to manage it amongst themselves in the democratic councils of the mir. Nobles couldn't separate their serfs from the land which the serfs were bound to. The second kind of slavery occurred in Communist times, mainly under Stalin, in which people were told to go to somewhere else, usually Siberia, to work. Sometimes the people were called prisoners and lived in prison camps or gulags and built factories or nuclear facilities. Other times they were families who were ordered to get on trains and go live in another part of the Soviet Union. Since SU citizens needed permission to travel to other cities, everybody's mobility was limited. So this wasn't quite the same as shipping slaves from Africa because once the people were in their new homes they had just about as much freedom as any other SU citizen.

So I don't think Russians are likely to think the same thoughts when they approach the idea that a woman is marrying for economic reasons. We westerners immediately think of buying women, white slavery, and africans in chains. But I think the Russians are more likely to think of the nomenklatura in their big black Zil cars with their well-dressed wives being chauffered to the theatre. Morph into the present day and the Russian mafia drive Hummers and Volgas with the same well-dressed wives being chauffered to the theatre.

To be honest, there is an element of this latter image in most marriages and I don't think this bothers most men as long as there are other strengths in the relationship as well. So a foreign guy with a steady job for the past 10 years can be considered to be a prime catch by a Russian women used to the past 10 years of economic hardship, unemployment, bank collapse, and instability. I think that Russians are less concerned about this because, 1) there are still lots of women to go around and 2) they see their economic situation making slow and steady improvements for the past 5 years so they expect that they will be able to beat the foreigners at this game.

Posted by: Jerico

In Sacramento there are lots of Russians.
When I go somewhere shopping or whatever , they are there.
I always like to ask them where they are from in Russia ,etc.
Most are happy to tell me.
They are always amazed I am so interested in this.
I then tell them my story of my fiancee from Russia.
Some have met American men and married them ,others came here as children a while ago when Russia colasped.
I like to ask them would they want to go back to Russia?
99% of them say (NEVER WILL I GO BACK TO RUSSIA!! )
These are the woman but the men seem to want to go back.
A lot of Russia guys I work around work 9 months a year , saving money.
Then they go to Russia for 3 months and live very good on the US dollar.
I think better opportunitys in the USA does come into play for leaving Russia.
The Russians I know are hard workers .
They work constantly , 7 days a weeks, to make money.
two or three different jobs.
There buying houses ,fixing them up and selling them for profit.
I dont think this would be possible in Russia for them.

Also , look at many of the womans profiles.
They all say they like to travel.
Well they probably have better chances for this coming over here to the USA.
ALthough my fiancee has traveled to more countrys than me

Jerry

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

like to ask them would they want to go back to Russia? 99% of them say (NEVER WILL I GO BACK TO RUSSIA!! )
These are the woman but the men seem to want to go back.

That's very interesting, Jerico. I actually started a thread a while back called "Russian attitudes toward emigration: men vs. women" and the point that came up was that Russian men generally tend to be more averse toward the idea of emigration than Russian women. I was just why this is...We never really came to a clear conclusion.

Posted by: wavetossed

Jill, ask some American military men what they think of the idea of emigrating to Russia or a former communist country.

Then consider the fact that all Russian men are ex-military men who spent a year or two in military service exposed to the team-building propoganda typical in military organizations. It's not surprising to me that ex-military guys have an emotional attachment to their own country that makes emigration hard.

Reminds be of a billboard that I saw on the highway in Chelyabinsk Oblast urging people to moderate their drinking. It said "Only through sobriety will Russia be great!". In other words, the creators of the bulletin board felt that "making Russia great again" would motivate people to be careful about how much they drink.

Having spent a year living in the soul-destroying environment of Northern California, I can understand why a Russian would not want to stay there if they could make things work, economically, in Russia. Nice climate and pocket money isn't sufficient for a happy life.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Then consider the fact that all Russian men are ex-military men who spent a year or two in military service exposed to the team-building propoganda typical in military organizations.

They're not actually. Yes, there is a mandatory draft, but many men get out of it. Some ways:

1. Being enrolled full time in college or graduate study
2. Family connections/bribes
3. Medical exemption (either legitimate, or by way of bribe)
4. Voluntarily checking yourself into a mental health facility (don't laugh--I personally know someone who has done this)
5. Run away (illegal, but there are a few NGOs in Russia that work with draft dodgers to help them through the legalities).

So a lot of Russian men actually never serve in the military. My husband, for example, never did (although his brother did serve).

However, I agree that people who served in the Soviet army may be more emotionally attached to their homeland. BUT! Given the current conditions of the Russian army (rampant and condoned dedovschina, harsh conditions, the possibility of being sent to Chechnya, etc), I would almost specualate that serving would make you LESS patriotic since you would have seen all of the WORST that your country is capable of. But that's just speculation on my part....

Quote:

Having spent a year living in the soul-destroying environment of Northern California, I can understand why a Russian would not want to stay there if they could make things work, economically, in Russia. Nice climate and pocket money isn't sufficient for a happy life.

Well, I've never been to Northern California (I'm an east coast girl), but I see your point

Posted by: FlashingEyes

wavetossed wrote:
In addition, the Russian experience of things like slavery, both in modern times and in their history, is different from the west. People in Russia were never bought and sold like cattle.

Simply not true. The Romans took Russian slaves, the Khans took Russian slaves, the various entities that contolled modern day Turkey took Russian slaves (Ottomans, Persians, Turks), etc. I guess if we ignore most of recorded history...

Posted by: Yakboy

Quote:

Originally posted by wavetossed

Having spent a year living in the soul-destroying environment of Northern California, I can understand why a Russian would not want to stay there if they could make things work, economically, in Russia. Nice climate and pocket money isn't sufficient for a happy life. [/B]

Soul destroying??? Maybe theres another Northern California that I wasnt aware of. Let me get this straight.. You are from the Peoples Republic of Canada, and you now live in the overtaxed expensive compost heap that is England (Which I'm having to endure for a year).. and yet Northern California is Soul Destroying?

Not making a dig... I'm just curious as to how such a laid back place as North Cali can evoke that kind of response?

Elucidate.

Ron

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

It's not like the trend is new. Before Christianity Jewish merchants from the Rhineland would venture into Poland, Rus and other Slavic territories and would obtain Slavic slaves of both sexes and simply take them to the West or sell them to the Arabs. Five centuries later, the Turks and especially the Tatars would raid into the Polish Ukraine and into southern Russia and take Slavs, and especially Slavic women - the prized "commodity" - into yasir and either sell them or keep them as slaves and/or concubines. And everyone is familiar with the story of the Janissaries - mostly Bulgar and Serb boys kidnapped by the Turks and trained into the Sultan's soldiers. These days, it's not the Turks or Tatars but the economic conditions and the devastation caused by decades of socialism that have renewed the trend in a more modern way.

Posted by: rob_we

i think it is very important to understand that the idea of life and living in the us and europe is quite different. I am considering myself not to be a typical german but to be a typical european. We have a military duty (now 12 month, back then it was 18) , of course not comparable to the russian "service" but still...
I don´t think im influenced by any national blabla. I do not love my country or reject any other one and I lived in different european countries with no problem.
If wave is canadian it might be a different story, i can´t speak for canadians, but I know i could never live in the us. A lot of europeans think like this and as yakboy pointed out quite colorful with his "compost heap" example i think this is true for a lot americans in the opposite direction. I think its quite important to point this out that the us is not the ultimalte dreamplace for everyone.
Anyone is invited to watch the movie "terminal" with tom hanks. I think it gives an excellent picture of some typical eastern european guy.
Even im not EE and there ARE differences, i can understand why lots of russian guys do not want to go there, or even to WE although its "closer".
I think its good that not everybody wants to live in the same place. Even if its considered to be so nice as california

)))

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

just want to confirm Rob_we wrote. Many europeans dont want live in USA. I have a colleague who has a son, there got a CEO position in LA. After 1� year, they have to go home.

Concerning EE men in the WE I believe its something do to with the gender role. In EE (at least Russia) its a macho world where fun and so on its important and WE its family and work.
Women from EE wants that family is most important, so .. migration.

Concerning military duty in my country:
Its mandatory to go to a test, medical, intillectual etc. and if are found fit, you basically attend a lottery. There is about 25% of 'winning'. Servicetime its different from regiment to regiment, but 8-10 months. The Royal garde has 12 months.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

In EE (at least Russia) its a macho world where fun and so on its important and WE its family and work.

Wow...I really disagree with you here. The vast majority of RM (and RW) I know place family and work way over good times and having fun. Sure, they like to have fun as much as anyone else (OK, maybe a little more

), but I can't say I know too many Russians who would sacrifice family and work for that. Just the opposite. For example, look at the men who go abroad to England, Spain, and other countries to work low wage/hard physical labor jobs just to be able to send money back to their families in Russia/Ukraine. In some cases that I've read in the news, they LITERALLY work themselves to death (because, in addition to working 12, 14, 16 hours a day 7 days a week, they deprive themselves of basic neccesities in order to be able to send more money back to their wives and children). So this statement is a little unfair. Although, it does bring us back to the question of economics....

Quote:

the Turks and especially the Tatars would raid into the Polish Ukraine and into southern Russia and take Slavs, and especially Slavic women

Certainly Roksolana comes to mind....But this isn't really the same thing. Such people were taken against their will. RW today are leaving by choice (even if that choice is sometimes based on opportunity for financial gain). Still, no one is forcing RW to marry WM.

There is the issue of trafficking, but that is also quite a different discussion.

Posted by: Jutman

of course is there good men in EE and Russia. The question is 1%, 10%, 50% or 100%.

When you describe a country, its done in general terms, covering 70% or more of the population.

Posted by: Jill

OK, I can agree with that. And I am only referring to the majority (yes, 70% or more) of the Russian/Ukrainian men I know (or know of). That may or may not be representative of the country as a whole. I can't say....But surely it must have some statistical value and, at the very least, it does allow me to view your statement with a good deal of skepticism.

Posted by: Vyesna

Actually, if anything Russian men work harder in terms of the percentage of their life they spend working than people in the U.S. because of their lower life expectancy-- most die before they are eligible for retirement. And even those that make it past that-- like my father in law who is 65-- usually keep on working if they are physically able in order to keep bringing additional income to the family.

Of course, we could debate about what extent the lower life expectancy is their fault-- although a reduction in medical services and stress caused by the socio-economic situation, both of which are not their fault, are a large part of the reason why they die so early.

There is a really detailed and thoughtful article in a recent issue of the New Yorker about this, the general population crisis in Russia and how the growing AIDS crisis (which a lot of people are in denial about) there is going to basically magnify the problem exponentially. By the way, AIDS is now spreading most rapidly among heterosexual Russian women and has moved well beyond the drug using crowd.

I agree many Russian men do behave badly generally from the perspective of what women typically want as mates. However, I find it rather presumptuous of middle and upper class Western men to constantly pat themselves on the back about how much better they are than Russian men when their lives are, for the most part much easier and always have been. If you have not grown up in and lived in that situation, you can't be sure of how you yourself would have turned out and how you yourself would think and behave. Is this an excuse for their behavior? No, but I do think we always have to remember that different circumstances bring out different qualities in people generally and "there but for the grace of God go I" is often the truth, whether we like to admit it or not. I think if you look at working class and poor neighborhoods in the States or elsewhere in the West where there is chronic unemployment and the only jobs are ones that allow you only to scrape by, there will be a similar behavioral pattern to that of men in Russia.

I also think we can give Russian men more credit as fathers. Quite a number of fathers died in Beslan trying to save their children.

Posted by: BradIL

Vyesna wrote:
Actually, if anything Russian men work harder in terms of the percentage of their life they spend working than people in the U.S. because of their lower life expectancy-- most die before they are eligible for retirement. And even those that make it past that-- like my father in law who is 65-- usually keep on working if they are physically able in order to keep bringing additional income to the family.

Oh come on! You can't be serious. You need to define terms such as "hard". Between hours worked, hours off, retraining, continuing education, & hours volunteered on behalf of government & private activity, it isn't even close. U-S workers spend more time on work, commit more resources to work.

Vyesna wrote:
I agree many Russian men do behave badly generally from the perspective of what women typically want as mates. However, I find it rather presumptuous of middle and upper class Western men to constantly pat themselves on the back about how much better they are than Russian men when their lives are, for the most part much easier and always have been.

Well that's the effect of hard work in a society where its citizens are rewarded fairly, strive to serve a common good, treat the possessions & skills of others with respect, and steadily work to improve themselves. I believe the 'pats on the back' are hard earned. That's right some westerners are middle/upper class in income. Most Russians are not. Let's give the envy a rest.

Vyesna wrote:
If you have not grown up in and lived in that situation, you can't be sure of how you yourself would have turned out and how you yourself would think and behave. Is this an excuse for their behavior? No, but I do think we always have to remember that different circumstances bring out different qualities in people generally and "there but for the grace of God go I" is often the truth, whether we like to admit it or not. I think if you look at working class and poor neighborhoods in the States or elsewhere in the West where there is chronic unemployment and the only jobs are ones that allow you only to scrape by, there will be a similar behavioral pattern to that of men in Russia.

Oh too touch this one!!! To compare the opportunities between the low-income of the U-S & Russia is futile. The U-S provides more opportunities, of better quality, of higher standard, for FREE or very minimal cost to more of its low-income citizens, with better employment opportunities when they complete their education/training, than Russia ever has. To attempt to make such a comparison is laughable. Its my understanding that minority representation is several aspects of the computer/hi tech areas far exceeds its representation in the general population. Jobs/careers that pay among the highest wages in the U-S, perhaps the world.

Vyesna brags:
I also think we can give Russian men more credit as fathers. Quite a number of fathers died in Beslan trying to save their children.

Quite a number of fathers died during the 9/11 attacks, in Iraq, in Afghanistan. Its difficult to write about true bravery. But trying to milk that bravery as saying who's the better father is almost too much to stomach. If Russians fathers are so good why do so many Russian mothers want to bring their children to the U-S? If its quality that counts, why expose them to so many presumptive middle/upper income americans?

Your attempt to sell a "russians are superior" message fails at about every turn, here.

---Brad///

Posted by: Vyesna

Brad

I don't think you read a word I wrote, at least not properly. Where do I say Russian men are superior? Nowhere. It's you guys always trying to prove Russian women are superior to American women. Neither I nor Jill nor anyone else has ever tried to show that Russian men are superior.

On the whole, from the perspective of a typical woman looking for a mate, Russian men clearly are not superior. Based on income alone that is the case. My argument is that the failures of Russian men are connected in a significant way to the harshness of life in Russia (as are the failures of Russian women, whatever they may be) and it's very presumptuous of middle class Americans to assume that they would do better in the same circumstances. We simply cannot know that and for that reason, we should judge less and try to understand more and not take statements such as "almost all Russian men are bad [husbands, fathers, whatever]" at face value.

Posted by: wavetossed

Brad,

Yours is one of the most offensive posts that I have read on this board. You completely ignore the substance of what Vyesna is saying, then you reject all her points with nothing to justify that rejection, and you manage to throw in the most vile nationalistic and jingoistic statements that I have seen on this or any other Russian marriage board.

I think you owe Vyesna an apology and I think you should retract your message.

Posted by: wavetossed

Vyesna,
I agree with you that American men would end up much the same as Russian men given the same circumstances. There is plenty of evidence of this in American history and I have personal experience of this living in small towns in the mountains of British Columbia, Canada. When jobs are scarce, alcohol is cheap and there are extremely limited opportunities to earn a living beyond basic subsistence, then people in any country end up the same. I remember people who brewed their own beer and ran illegal stills to make alcohol from cherry and apple juice. I remember groups of unemployed men riding old school buses into the mountains to spend the day cutting weed trees or planting young trees in order to earn a small supplement of extra money in addition to their government unemployment insurance. I remember when the government stopped publishing suicide statistics because the suicide rate was rising at an alarming speed. I remember living in an old shack with rotten wood in the roof where the tarpaper covering had worn away, where the pipes froze for weeks at a time in the winter and we melted snow for water. People scavenged the roadsides for discarded bottles, cut trees illegally in the forests for fireweood and to sell Christmas trees. In the late summer people picked fruit. This work used to be done by migrant workers from other parts of the country but when the economy dived in 1982, the local people took all that work back, even though it meant living in unsanitary plywood cabins in the orchards.

There are places like this in the USA in the Northwest and in the Southeast from Louisiana to Florida and up to Kentucky. Outside the biggest cities you have a mixture of rich towns and poor towns. The poor Americans or poor Canadians are not much different from poor Russians.

Most of the people on this board don't have enough experience of Russia or other countries to really judge any of this. You don't understand a country just by going there as a tourist and experiencing everything secondhand through a translator. If you aren't fluent in Russian then you just cannot understand the country or the people because you can't talk to them, overhear conversations on the bus, listen to the choice of words used by the radio announcers or even do something as simple as read the evening papers.

There is nothing wrong with all Russian men. There is nothing wrong with Russian men as a class. There is, however, a numerical mismatch between Russian men and Russian women. This mismatch means that there are not enough Russian men who have the characteristics that Russian women desire. The subset of Russian women who cannot find a match and who are adventurous enough to consider a foreign marriage is large enough to feed a significant matchmaking business.

This thing is driven mostly by the desires of women which causes them to not find a match among the available men. Lots of Russian women do find their match in Russia and lots of those women have the same standards and desires as the ones looking abroad. By definition, the men they have found in Russia are just as good as the hypothetical foreign husbands.

I'm curious how many American women on Internet dating sites are explicitly looking for foreign husbands.

Posted by: Khashyar

Hello...

I think that "offensive" may not be the best and most accurate choice of words (I have read some posts that I would definitely consider to be more offensive

)

I think that Brad was strongly disagreeing, but I did not see it has offensive.

And I certainly agree that Vyesna has fairly consistently written intelligent and thoughtful posts in the forum.

My view is that intelligent people can disagree, and sometimes strongly disagree, and that is o.k. as long as they aren't rude or intolerant...

Khashyar

Posted by: Jill

I would just like to commend Vyesna and wavetossed for very thought provoking and informative posts.

Brad, I am trying to understand your points, but honestly I don't quite see where you're coming from

I've known Vyesna for a while now and I can say that I have NEVER heard her assert that Russian men are better than American men. She simply feels--as I do--that they are often unfairly given a bad wrap.

Posted by: Menehune

Quote:

Originally posted by Vyesna
Actually, if anything Russian men work harder in terms of the percentage of their life they spend working than people in the U.S. because of their lower life expectancy-- most die before they are eligible for retirement.

in my view, this statement is completely false. in economic terms, "working harder" can mean two things: productivity or hours worked. in either case that statement is untrue. if this is not what were referring to, then i can't say if it's true or false, and would like to appoligize before hand just in case i misread it.

here is my data to back up my statement. according to the international labor organization (http://www.us.ilo.org) article "U.S. Workers Are World's Most Productive", US annual output per worker surpassed that of europe and japan and further widening the productivity gap with the rest of the world since 2002. much of this growth can be attributed to two factors: the production and use of information IT and the growth of service industries dependent on IT. most EU countries were unable to match the US with the except of finland with nokia leading the way.

now if you're thinking of "working harder" in terms of hours worked. the normal work week for americans are 40 hours, while in europe it's 30-35 hours. according to the ILO, Americans worked more hours annually than their European counterparts, averaging 1,825 hours. In contrast, French 1,545 hours; Germans worked 1,444 hours; at the bottom is norway and the netherlands at around 1350 hours. Americans are at the top of the list, second only to korea in terms of hours worked. (note that trend of hiring part-timers in US corporations have pushed down the average hours worked, data on full-timers annaul average is 2416 hours.) http://www.dol.gov/

the data that i've found on Russia, states that russians work 48 hrs/week which includes overtime. this is inline with the EU's 1993 Working Time Directive (WTD), that sets a maximum 48 hrs/week, including overtime . The same data for the US including OT is 58 hrs/wk.

contrary to popular belief, most americans can not afford to retire at 65. even with SSI and pensions, many still have to work well into their 70's to make ends meet.

edited part:

I would also like to add that I didn't see Vyesna say anything bout superiority, nor have i seen any WM here writting that RW women are superior to WW. social-economic changes in the US have force women to be more masculine to survive in the male dominate business world. I believe this is the reason why most of the WM are here. We are looking for a lover, companion, and a woman who is not afraid to be feminine; not someone who wants to be top dog all the time. the higher up a woman in western society climbs on the social-economic ladder, the more masculine she becomes in order to stay on top and survive. I am not saying that all WW are like this, but i do see the current trend of a more masculine american woman growing each year. this is a big turn off for me. i can't even begin to guess what the others are thinking, but for me, it has nothing to do with RW being superior to WW or vice a vis.

Posted by: Vyesna

Menehune,

I don't know how long you've been here, but there are plenty of posts in the archives asserting that Russian women are superior to American women in all ways and even go further than that. But never mind, to be honest, I don't really care about that anymore because it's really just stupidity and I have better things to do than waste time on it.

In terms of working harder, I just meant in terms of the percentage of life spent on the job. Productivity isn't necessarily working harder-- productivity can come because of improved techology, infrastructure and other things that have little to do with how hard a person works. However, I agree that performance expectations in the U.S. are harder. Nevertheless, I think there are probably no statistics that would accurately compare how hard Russians work versus how hard Americans work since so much Russian work is not part of the official economy and is unrecorded. In fact, the parts that are recorded, both in terms of wages, hours and productivity are probably the least productive, least well-paid jobs. The people who are working hard a la American are probably doing it mostly off the books.

At any rate, my point is, like Jill also indicated, I think that Russian men among people on these types of forums are really put down in a way I don't think they deserve as a group. When Russian womend do it, it's sort of understandable because they've probably had personal experiences that have colored their view. When Western men do it I find it a bit ridiculous since in almost all cases they don't know a single Russian man well, much less a representative group.

Posted by: Vyesna

Oh, and thanks everyone for their support. I actually wasn't offended-- I got over that a while ago

Posted by: BradIL

Well Jill, et. al., let me reverse the question, where is Vyesna's original post coming from?

What's with the middle-upper income 'patting themselves on the back' supposed to mean? Her 'but by the grace of God there go I' remark is commendable, but her point of those more successful patting themselves on the back makes no sense at all!!!

No one knows how they would react if they were in terrible circumstances? Well the low-income in the U-S set the example. Even though crime is higher in low-income neighborhoods in both urban & rural areas of the U-S, it is still by far a minor problem. Around 2-5 percent of the population are behind most of the crime. Most of the low-income here are law-abiding citizens, doing their best, hold no ill will towards anyone. In fact many of them do improve through the opportunities available to them, but couldn't tell it from general media coverage, or the 'conventional wisdom' of U-S culture. I am very sensitive to generalizations that cast the low-income in a poor light. And I come down hard on those generalizations. If you're offended, too bad. Such generalizations of the low-income are GROSSLY UNFAIR!

So what is Vyesna's statement supposed to mean? If she's referring to those in poverty in the CIS, don't you think she should include some reference to specifically what she's describing???

But if this is some wisecrack towards how the U-S treats its low-income, yeah, I'm going to react STRONGLY.

Khashyar is correct, no one is slamming Vyesna personally--- wavetossed--- so no apology is necessary. But I will disagree strongly on the basis of what I read. And wavetossed the same semantics test applies: so you & others will now analyze the "pat on the back" remark. It comes off smart-aleck to me.

As to russians working harder, refer to Menehue's post above. Contains all the questions I have, and would only add that much extra training/special training costs bucks that come out of my pocket. Educational expenses that are not covered by employer or government programs. Its my understanding that higher ed costs are a lot lower in the CIS than they are here in the U-S.
So what is Vyesna's original post supposed to mean?

Russian fathers dying to save their children at Breslan... very impressive-sobering-awe inspiring-humbling. How is this anecdote supposed to relate to the overall problem in Russia that fathers have very little interaction with their children after a divorce? I don't get Vyesna's point. There are U-S soldiers who have been killed in Afghanistan/Iraq who have newborns at home they have never seen, or kids who are now talking- that were tiny infants when they shipped out. Where does the Breslan anecdote cohere in this discussion, or in any other thread? (except the thread containing messages of condolence for the Breslan victims)

You don't know where I am coming from?

Well I'm just perplexed at your responses

Vyesna's post came off as a wisecrack to me. I didn't like it!

So explain yourselves----

Now lets not go down the route we just travelled with RobOhioguy in the advice needed thread. After several posts we finally figured out its how someone phrases the purpose/nature of their trip that turned into 'disrespect for women' and you've 'hurt my feelings'... not to mention the row over Rob's dating technique.

---Brad///

Posted by: BradIL

Wavetossed---

offensive & vile, eh? There's a PM for you regarding your response to my post.

Read it-respond-e-mail or PM. You & I have something to discuss.

No apology---no retraction.

Eager to hear from you---

Brad///

Posted by: Menehune

brad you left out those "working hard a la American are probably doing it mostly off the books."

when i read that, i saw it as working like an american is somehow illegal thus it's "off the books". i am hoping she is not aware of the connotation behind that phrase, but i highly doubt it.

Posted by: BradIL

Mene--- good point missed that one.

Reread Vyesna's explanation for the 'pat on the back'. Still don't get it. American men don't know how they would act in a similar situation? Well, yes we do. There are low-income in this country as we read.

Wavetossed threw anecdotes from the American Depression into the mix, which seems to miss the effects of the CCC & WPA and other New Deal programs of the era. Then goes into the rural areas of Kentucky, Appalachia, etc.

So what's the answer to the pat on the back. Want to see how low-income Americans react in those situations, hit HUD-HHS- any number of other U-S government websites. Studies abound.

Posted by: wavetossed

Sorry Vyesna, I must apologize for the inability of my fellow English-speaking board members to understand what you have said to us in plain English.

I understood it and I generally agree with you that Russian men are not very different from American men, that they are unfairly stereotyped and that many of these stereotypes arise from the economic circumstances, not from some fundamental characteristic of Russian men.

Perhaps I understand this better because I have lived in poor households in poor communities and I have seen, firsthand, the effect of long hard working hours on family life and relationships.

Posted by: BradIL

No apology needed.

I believe your post has been repeated many times on several threads.

Your analysis of "pats on the back" could be useful.

Posted by: parasionok

Guys guys guys,

I know lots of American guys who work hard. I also know lots of Russian and Ukrainian guys who work no less harder. I also know lots of Russian women who are happily married to Russian guys. My mother is happily married to a Russian

My father is a very wonderful father, very considerate, caring, and simply the best

My cousine is married to an American. He is a wonderful father and husband.

Let's not judge people by where they come from. There are lots of good people everywhere in the world.

Posted by: BradIL

Parasionok--- fine great post by you!

but what do you mean by "working hard", that's where so much effort is being spent here. Working hard by type of labor, hours, skill level, WHAT?! Explain yourself

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally posted by BradIL
American men don't know how they would act in a similar situation? Well, yes we do. There are low-income in this country as we read.
So what's the answer to the pat on the back. Want to see how low-income Americans react in those situations

The major mistake what most of Americans make is to think about everything in terms of money... They think that Russia (or Iraq, let say) is the same America, only less rich...

You even do not know, how pure, innocent, unpoisoned souls you have, and I always envy you a little bit - because you have never seen the REAL troubles in your life...
You simply cannot imagine what is the life like when you do not know what else can happen to you tomorrow, what else will invent this mean KGB scoundrel and his gang against you and your beloved ones... I will never return there, even if you give me millions of $$$...

Posted by: Yakboy

Quote....

I will never return there, even if you give me millions of $$$...

Ok.. I would LOVE to know what went on behind That sentence. Sounds very bad.

Curious
Ron

Posted by: BradIL

Princeton Lion writes: You even do not know, how pure, innocent, unpoisoned souls you have, and I always envy you a little bit - because you have never seen the REAL troubles in your life...

How pure & innocent my soul relative to the russian experience? You got that one right! Can't say I have walked in a russian's shoes, suffered as they have and I'm not looking to do so, in this life at least. Your envy is well placed.

I've confronted real troubles in my life, but its nothing compared to the hill the russian people have to climb. I wonder if they can do it.

Princeton Lion writes: You simply cannot imagine what is the life like when you do not know what else can happen to you tomorrow, what else will invent this mean KGB scoundrel and his gang against you and your beloved ones.

I think I have a pretty vivid picture if the writings of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn are accurate. Stalin wasn't lying when he said there was no personal life. Overall message I got from A-S is you're all the chattel of the communist party, barely human, and nobody really cares if you live or die, or much of anything else about you. You end up in the KGB's crosshairs, you are a leper that's repulsive to everyone around you, including your family. Did I miss anything?

Hey Princeton Lion--- now that you're in the U-S, how sweet is your personal liberty to you? How much reverence do you have for the Declaration of Independence, or the U-S Bill of Rights? What did you learn from the brutal treatment rammed down your throat, beyond being bitter and resentful? Do you have the strength to recover from it, put it behind you, and build something?

Princeton Lion writes: The major mistake what most of Americans make is to think about everything in terms of money... They think that Russia (or Iraq, let say) is the same America, only less rich.

Money isn't everything, but it gives you the ability to get the assets you need to secure yourself. When you don't have money your life will be tougher, you can be sure of that. I'd rather have it than not.

Oh, the behavior I see today has been repeated just about everywhere across the globe throughout the centuries. Unless there is something that surprises you, is there anything new going on--- really? Change the names, places, a few circumstances, its still the same old thing essentially.

But I know a few things. If I cut my hand off, my life will become more difficult, and its going to hurt like hell! Can't say I have to experience that even once to know I'm right.

---Brad///

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Just forget about Alexander Solzynitsen for the moment (apologies for bad spelling to any bibliophiles in our midst !) ..... my gf wrote to me yesterday that the towns' heating system was turned on , on the 15th October ... apparantly in certain small towns in the Ukraine heating is not provided until a certain day and then as if by magic someone decides to press a switch and the town gets heating
. My gf was only able to stay warm by using the bathroom and having a hot bath up until the heating was provided. I take it for granted that I can turn my boiler on and off but just imagine living in a block of flats where it is cold and you depend on the local government to decide when you will get any heating irrespective of how old or young you are . ( BTW Ukraine or for that matter Russia are truly fearsome in terms of the cold - my freezer at home is warmer by comparison).
just imagine also living in countries where you may not get paid if you work in the public sector as a nurse or doctor or teacher- I know that I can get irritated by things in my country but I have to admire anyone who can keep calm, sane, and humerous in situations which would make me want to get angry.

Just imagine also an economy that is poor and a govt who are unwilling to introduce reforms to allow free markets and who are
corrupt and then imagine how people would like to improve thier lot by working in Italy , Germany or any part of Europe but who are tricked when they get to the country when they find out that either the work never existed or that they will become the new white slave labour - this is reality in europe.

The American economy had the Great Depression - but the Ukraine is going through this now .

rattle

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally posted by Yakboy

Ok.. I would LOVE to know what went on behind That sentence. Sounds very bad.

The most sad thing about Russia is that Russian people do not want freedom... Instead, they want "�� " (a "good king") who will give them everything... Today they cheer this KGB bastard and do not understand that he pushes them back to the slavery...

As same as German people cheered Hitler believing that he was their savoir, a "good king"... But even Hitler did not dare to blow up his own German people to come into power!
What is going on in Russia now is - unfortunately - nothing but the restoration of dictatorship... One little creeping step after another, one little ban after another... The last elections in Russia was a sad comedy (people elect Putin from Putin, Putin or Putin), and I predict that there will be no elections any more... Because Der Fuhrer already came!

And very soon we will see the Iron Curtain again, and all these RW relationships only remaining in your dreams... And... I will be so much happy if I am wrong!

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Nevertheless, I think there are probably no statistics that would accurately compare how hard Russians work versus how hard Americans work since so much Russian work is not part of the official economy and is unrecorded.

Quote:

now if you're thinking of "working harder" in terms of hours worked. the normal work week for americans are 40 hours, while in europe it's 30-35 hours. according to the ILO, Americans worked more hours annually than their European counterparts, averaging 1,825 hours. In contrast, French 1,545 hours; Germans worked 1,444 hours; at the bottom is norway and the netherlands at around 1350 hours. Americans are at the top of the list, second only to korea in terms of hours worked. (note that trend of hiring part-timers in US corporations have pushed down the average hours worked, data on full-timers annaul average is 2416 hours.) [url]http://www.dol.gov/the data that i've found on Russia, states that russians work 48 hrs/week which includes overtime. this is inline with the EU's 1993 Working Time Directive (WTD), that sets a maximum 48 hrs/week, including overtime . The same data for the US including OT is 58 hrs/wk.

contrary to popular belief, most americans can not afford to retire at 65. even with SSI and pensions, many still have to work well into their 70's to make ends meet.

See, this is the problem. Where Russia/Ukraine are concerned "official statistics" rarely reflect reality. It's like the Tiutchev poem, "umom Rossiyu ne ponyat." Take, for example, my father in law. Pretty typical Ukrainian man in his 60s, has a wife, two grown sons, and a little granddaughter. According to "official statistics" he's retired. No hours worked, just carefree retirement. Except for the fact that his pension amounts to about $6 or $7 a month (and even that meager sum is often withheld for several months at a time) and he can't possible begin to pay his bills on that, much less put food on the table. So he made a deal with the director of the factory where he worked for 30 years to keep him on (but this is, of course, unofficial and would not be captured in such statistics). He works at the factory an average of 50-60 hours a week. In his free time on evenings and weekends, he goes to the dacha (which he built himself), but not to rest. There he plants and harvests the fruits and vegetables that he feeds his family with (they basically wouldn't eat otherwise). The man sleeps about 5 hours a night and the rest of the time he is, essentially working. But you won't see this in statistics and this is, unfortunately, a fairly common situation.

But the point really isn't who is "better" than whom, or who is "harder working" (just as an aside, I also remember growing up that my own American father worked two jobs to take care of us). The point is that a lot of assumptions are made about Russian men--the usual stereotypes being that they are lazy drunks who don't take care of their families. What Vyesna and I are trying to point out is that this is simply not true. The majority do not, as was asserted, put partying over work and family. They may not make the same kind of money that western men make; therefore, to some degree, they are less able of "taking care" of their families. But some are really doing everything they can to try. And, in my opinion, they should be given credit for this.

And not to add fuel to the flames, but I think that's all Vysena was trying to say with the "pat themselves on the back" thing. It's easy to judge Russian men as not being able to take care of their families, but they're playing in a whole different ball game than most people in the US and Europe . And I don't think this comment was directed at any specific person here, it was just a general caution to be careful of jumping to conclusions about people. As so often happens.

Posted by: BradIL

So Jill---

If there's such a substantial gap between official statistics & reality, we're left with a handful of anecdotes that guides us through the area?

Basically, whatever is in front of your face is reality at any point in time?

You can understand how all this gets more bizarre the more I read.
---------------------------------------------------
I accept your explanation for the 'pat on the back' remark. I accept that russian men are not neatly packaged into 1 image, the same for american men.

I agree russian men may have a "harder" life, essentially that they really not going to get too far ahead, most of them at least, despite anecdotes to the contrary.

But that doesn't mean that american men don't work hard; it means russian men deserve understanding, compassion, perhaps pity; it also means that despite a russian man's situation, and despite my situation, I don't have to feel guilty about it.

Posted by: Jill

Brad, I'm just saying that there's often more to a situation than meets the eye. Statistics can serve some purpose, but your understanding of a culture becomes richer if you see some of the realities that are not captured in such statistics. I don't mean just a handful of anecdotes, but seeing first hand the way real people live. It's not in statistics and it's not in travel guides. It comes (in my opinion) frmo living in a certain culture, country, society for an extended period of time. Unfortunately, few people have the opportunity to do so.

And I'm not referring ONLY to the FSU here. Menehune made some interesting observations on Japan in another thread. He also made the point that an "outsider" will rarely see (or be shown) all the intricacies of culture and life. And this is probably a more extreme case than the FSU, but it is still a relevent point to keep in mind.

Quote:

But that doesn't mean that american men don't work hard; it means russian men deserve understanding, compassion, perhaps pity; it also means that despite a russian man's situation, and despite my situation, I don't have to feel guilty about it.

There's not a doubt in my mind that many American men work very hard. That's why I mentioned the fact that my father (who is American) worked two jobs his whole life to support his family. Now that he is "retired" he is still working full time at one of those jobs. And I don't think Russian men want anyone's pity and of course there is no reason for you (or anyone else here) to feel any guilt for the situation. My point (and Vyesna's point) is simply that Russian men shouldn't be dismissed as caring more about parties than work and family. Sometimes when you look only from the outside, you don't see the full picture.

Posted by: mria

Who works harder-Russians or Americans?
As a western European, I would say they both work damned hard compared to us here in Western Europe.
I read a thesis by a Russian lady about how Russian's and American's phsychology is similar, on account of the size of their country (superpower strengh, geography, etc). Most people believe that the British are similar to the Americans because of the language, and continental Europeans are similar to the Russians. The Russian researcher was amazed that her research revealed that the British phsyche was most similar to the Japanese (they are both islands, who choose to believe they are special compared to the other countries on their contintent, they have a monarchy, etc), and that the RUSSIAN mentality and culture was most similar to the Americans.
I also personally think that Americans and Russians have similarities-for example openness and wearing their hearts on their sleeve. Another is definitely the hours they work.
American men and women are great business people, and no Europeans I have ever heard of would go to the gym before the office after a coffee. Americans would be suprised to hear that the British proffessionals in the city in London go for after-works drinks EVERY night, and more often than not start work with a hangover. In a sense, we are a bit lazy. THe French with their 5 week summer holidays, and then there is the mediterranien culture...
RUssians, of course party hard, but they work their fingers to the bone too. My friend in Yaroslavl was a chemist and she worked 36 hour shifts! A Russian male aquaintance of mine was constantly on call by his boss. The men work so hard there, and sometimes in impossible conditions (cold etc). Most of the waitresses in the restaurant where I worked in St Petes would work untill 4.00am, then be in college for 9.00a.m.
Both American and Russians share the same drive to work and succeed, except, lets be honest, there are more opportunities in the US to make without being dishonest (as Vyesna was pointing out).
I am a woman, and much as I adored my experience of living in Russia as a young twentysomething, if I had the choice of bringing my kids up in the US or Russia, I'd choose the US. Its safer, and less people seem to slip through the net. Although the old ladies are probably lonelier in the US, at least they all have the security of knowing where their next meal is coming from. A lot of Russians perhaps feel they are "selling out" by choosing to live in the US. But Most of us haven't been through trauma that has been inflicted upon them by the state of the society, but if we had,we would be less quick to judge the decisions of all the people who choos to emigrate. When it comes to the real crunch, the bottom line is not culture, or food or society, or language, but "What is best for my children". For some people, the time to **** about is over, and its time to get serious about what opportunities there are in Russia compared to the US.
Don't get me wrong-Russia is still a fantastic place for children in terms of education, culture, family and community. But I'm just saying that for some people, the US can offer things that Russia can't (and visa versa).

Posted by: Jill

Mria's back!!!!!

Posted by: lolomarseille

Quote:

Originally posted by Menehune
in my view, this statement is completely false. in economic terms, "working harder" can mean two things: productivity or hours worked. in either case that statement is untrue. if this is not what were referring to, then i can't say if it's true or false, and would like to appoligize before hand just in case i misread it.

here is my data to back up my statement. according to the international labor organization (http://www.us.ilo.org) article "U.S. Workers Are World's Most Productive", US annual output per worker surpassed that of europe and japan and further widening the productivity gap with the rest of the world since 2002. much of this growth can be attributed to two factors: the production and use of information IT and the growth of service industries dependent on IT. most EU countries were unable to match the US with the except of finland with nokia leading the way.

now if you're thinking of "working harder" in terms of hours worked. the normal work week for americans are 40 hours, while in europe it's 30-35 hours. according to the ILO, Americans worked more hours annually than their European counterparts, averaging 1,825 hours. In contrast, French 1,545 hours; Germans worked 1,444 hours; at the bottom is norway and the netherlands at around 1350 hours. Americans are at the top of the list, second only to korea in terms of hours worked. (note that trend of hiring part-timers in US corporations have pushed down the average hours worked, data on full-timers annaul average is 2416 hours.) http://www.dol.gov/

the data that i've found on Russia, states that russians work 48 hrs/week which includes overtime. this is inline with the EU's 1993 Working Time Directive (WTD), that sets a maximum 48 hrs/week, including overtime . The same data for the US including OT is 58 hrs/wk.

contrary to popular belief, most americans can not afford to retire at 65. even with SSI and pensions, many still have to work well into their 70's to make ends meet.

edited part:

I would also like to add that I didn't see Vyesna say anything bout superiority, nor have i seen any WM here writting that RW women are superior to WW. social-economic changes in the US have force women to be more masculine to survive in the male dominate business world. I believe this is the reason why most of the WM are here. We are looking for a lover, companion, and a woman who is not afraid to be feminine; not someone who wants to be top dog all the time. the higher up a woman in western society climbs on the social-economic ladder, the more masculine she becomes in order to stay on top and survive. I am not saying that all WW are like this, but i do see the current trend of a more masculine american woman growing each year. this is a big turn off for me. i can't even begin to guess what the others are thinking, but for me, it has nothing to do with RW being superior to WW or vice a vis.

Story of a blind!
diffrence between productivity and working hard seemed obvious, well in fact no
some facts;
the less hours you work, the better is your productivity
so the best in the world are the...belgians
Us productivity is not very good, for obvious reasons; little jobs pollute the statistics
but even in industry (see chrysler/mercedes) it's not the best
but a Us worker produces more coz he do more hours in a week,moreweeks in year, and more years in a life...
at least, of course russian work harder than americans

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally posted by lolomarseille: the less hours you work, the better is your productivity
so the best in the world are the...belgians
Us productivity is not very good, for obvious reasons; little jobs pollute the statistics

No lolo--- not true. US productivity is stunningly good!!! it has been driving economic growth here for the last decade. I don't understand how you are calculating productivity growth. It's not my doing the same in less hours, but the Federal Reserve method is tracking output per hour worked, which is skyrocketing! American GDP growth has been outstripping much of the economic growth of the rest of the world, expect a few instance in Asia on the pacific rim.

Quote:

Lolomarseille wrote: but even in industry (see chrysler/mercedes) it's not the best
but a Us worker produces more coz he do more hours in a week,moreweeks in year, and more years in a life...
at least, of course russian work harder than americans

And I believe many americans not only work harder, but smarter in many instances.
Russians may work as hard as americans, but not harder.

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

about measure productivity. There is several ways to that and all off them has advantages and disadvantes and can basically not be calculated accuratedly.

The Western world (USA/Canada, Japan, Austr./NZ and EU) has that major problem, that the difference in productivity and cost does not match the the Eastern Europe/FSU and Asia.

An example of 1 unit goods: (fictive)
Westen production: 10 hour cost 10$, totale: 100$
Other production : 30 hour cost 3 $, totale: 90$

and the reality is that its not 30 hour and not 3 $. Maybe 20 hour and 2 $.

This is the core of global problems rigth now.

Posted by: BradIL

Brian--- this is a good point you raise.

I'm trying to learn more about this, most of the analysis I read comes from the Federal Reserve Bank in St. Louis. They say that the productivity index that is calculated for the US is an aggregate indicator for the country. To compare it, you have stay aggregate-to-aggregate with the europe, asia, etc. but I don't understand how all this is adjusted to reconcile the different wage structures, etc.

But the Fed can calculate productivity's impact on US GDP, which is driving our economic growth. The rest can seem contradictory to me, but is provable.

Posted by: lolomarseille

we're both right, we just don't speak of the same productivity

well, about "rabotat", of course a coal minor works harder in russia and is less productive, and so on...