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Define Scam! What is a scammer?
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Posted by: rob_we

Hi all. I want to start this thread to discuss a farely hot topic.
Some people were badly hit by scammers, are afraid of them, became therefore unsure or angry or have heared of scam and don´t know what to do with it.
I would like to try to discuss
What exactly is scam and where does it begin?
I think this word is used so commonly and has meanwhile so many different nuances that it deserves some discussion to define it. It may help to reduce the fear of the "unknown" for those who are unsure, maybe...

Posted by: rob_we

Ok I try to post my own thoughts about it.

I think "scammer" is one of the most problematic words nowadays when it comes to define a "virtual" correspondence between 2 people. Everybody knows the word, everybody has an idea, hence everybody thinks , due to personal experiences, stories he or she has heard or explanation him or her was given about, of somrthing different.

If a girl talks to more than one guys on the net, deciding for one after a while, she might be seen as a scammer already by some people.

If this girls takes a present from one or more of theses guys, she might be seen as a scammer.

If this girls asks for money to communicate with these guys, she might be seen as a scammer.

If this girls tells more than one guy of those she wants to come over to them or them to come over to her, she might be seen as a scammer.

I think its clear that any girl or organisation sending preprinted letter out to cash money does not have to be discussed here to be a scammer. Thats clear.

I would like to draw a boarder line here. So any answer to the above would be welcome

Posted by: wavetossed

A scammer is a criminal who defrauds money from another person under false pretenses. To find out where scamming begins, check the laws dealing with fraud in your country.

Examples of scamming.

Someone runs an auction on Ebay selling widgets. You send them a cheque and after it is cashed, your widgets never arrive. You track down the seller and find out that their street address is an empty lot and their phone number is a payphone in a football stadium.

Someone sends you an email asking for your assistance in helping to move $75 million out of Nigeria using your bank account. In return for your assistance you will receive a fee of $10 million. The sender is in a jam and cannot transfer the money out of Nigeria unless they can find a foreign bank account to use for the transfer.

Someone sends you an email saying that she has got approval for her visa to the USA but just needs $250 for the visa fees and $300 for plane tickets. Attached to the email is her photo wearing a very short skintight dress made of material so thin that it's almost transparent. She says that she loves you and can hardky wait until she can be with you to feel your kisses on her lips.

And so on...

Examples that aren't scams.

Someone runs an auction on Ebay selling 3 sets of widgets. Yours is the winning bid but they discover that one set is cracked and refund your money. Unfortunately they've already shipped out the other two sets so you get nothing.

Someone send you an email offering a 20% discount if you book now to attend the industry conference that you attended once three years ago. You never went back in subsequent years because you felt that the conference was a waste of money.

Someone sends you an email saying that she cannot write you for a while because she doesn't have enough money for the Internet cafe and her daughter is sick so she must buy medicine for her.

Somewhere in between there are limits but it is hard to figure out where they are and it really isn't worth trying to do so unless you are a lawyer or a judge. For instance, if a cute young girl comes up to you in a bar and asks you to buy her a drink, then after you do so, she ducks off through the crowd and you never see her again, is that a scam? In some sense it is, but even if you have proof of what she did on a security video, it would be hard to find a court that would charge her with any kind of crime.

Posted by: wavetossed

Emotionally, a scam is anything that hooks you and makes you fall in love with a picture. For the purposes of this discussion, a picture is no different from a bunch of letters, emails, online chats, webcam sessions. If you fall in love, or feel emotionally hooked, before you have met her in person, then you have been scammed.

Of course, the fault is all your own. Many men try to cleanse their guilt by loudly trumpeting that it was the woman's fault and publishing information in so-called blacklists. But they are just fooling themselves. Don't get emotionally hooked before you meet someone. Make friends and communicate but don't get hooked because if you do get hooked, it's all happening in your own mind. You are scamming yourself.

Note that money doesn't come into the equation at all. And the end result is likewise irrelevant. If you are hooked before you meet, then you have scammed yourself. If you are lucky, then when you meet her in person you will find that your feelings have some justification in fact. But that is a numbers game, a gamble. If you are going to gamble it is best to do so without emotion.

So make friend by email, letters, IM, phonecalls, etc. Then go meet your friend for a holiday in the USSR (former) and see whether or not the friendship can blossom into love.

Posted by: RomanticTX

Wave.

Those scamming lists are very helpul. They prevent you from investing a lot of time to discover a scam artist.

I have never been scammed, but I have been contacted by well-known scammers. I appreciate those who come forward and accept, in front of the community, that they weren’t able to pick up on the scammers clues until it was too late. It takes courage and I appreciate those gentlemen!

Posted by: parasionok

Dear Romantic,

Personally I am against scammers blacklists for several reasons. First of all, lots of scam organisations use pictures of real girls who have no idea what's going on. Secondly, I think it is against the law to publish personal photoes without a consent of the person they belong to... Someone said here that at least you can prosecute an AW if scammed. And what about RW? How do you think they can protect themselves from being falsly accused of scam? Then as I mentioned somewhere before, some guys tend to entertain themselves by provoking girls to write them certain letters by offering financial help, etc. and then they put those girls who have done NOTHING WRONG on blacklists....

When I read the letters you publish here, I really wonder how anyone cannot see that they are prewritten. Do you think it might be because you assume that any Russian woman speaks no or very bad English? Lots of people asked me so many times: how come your English is ok? And when I asked them why it should be bad, they would simply say: But you are RUSSIAN!

What will happen if I creat a blacklist of American guys who are sending out letters like I received some time ago? I think they will sue me to death and my site will be closed...

These blacklists creat paranoia and they course lots of damage IMHO.

And the letter... I say no more...

Hello! You have captured my full attention. I want to
know you and possibly marry.

I enjoy playing board games, relaxing, sitting by a fire
late at night and watching the star, travel, and cooking.

I am a forensic psychologist and author specializing in
relationship and sexual violence. I used to profile sex
offenders for the state. Now I work for myself. I write
self help book and professional books and speak
around the country on the issues of physical and
sexual abuse.

I live in Minnesota, which is in the northern
Midwestern part of the United States of America. It is
beautiful and quiet here, fairly low crime. And we have
many, many lakes.

I have a Master’s Degree in psychology with a
specialization and expertise in forensic psychology.

I want to marry, have children if possible, and be
happy with you.

Please answer the following:
1. how important is family?
2. what are your thoughts about what a
marriage is
3. how is power and decisions made in a
relationship
4. who has the final say in a marriage
5. what role does sex play, how important to
please your husband
6. what you thoughts are about moving to
the USA is we marrying

I also ask that if your are serious, that you send many
photos. And if I don’t offend you, please include
intimate photos as well, as photos are all we have to
see each other’s bodies from such a distance. Please
act now. I will make travel arrangements.

Posted by: wavetossed

parasionok:

Did he send you pictures of himself naked? I've seen this letter and similar letters (his profession and state changes) along with his naked photos on a Russian women's blacklist site.

In other words, Russian women do have their own blacklist sites where they publish photos of the men who try to scam them. Americans usually just scam them for free photos and cybersex but Europeans and Turks are scamming women to come visit them for free sex or to force them into prostitution.

Serious stuff.

I have seen two different websites where Russian women discuss the men that write to them and there are several other sites that are general discussion forums for Russian women searching for western husbands where the topic is sometimes discussed. Along with the abuse suffered by wives once they come to America.

There is one case where a sex offender in Oklahoma got out of prison after 9 years, contacted a 16 year old in St Petersburg, possibly visited her and had sex for a couple of years, married her at age 18 and brought her to the USA. He was around 50 years of age. He controlled every aspect of her life, abusing her both physically and mentally. A month ago, she said she was leaving him, so he kidnapped their two year old son and left town. The police arrested him a few days later in Texas where he awaits trial on interstate kidnapping charges amongst other things like assault.

There are all kinds out there.

Best way to deal with it is to keep your eyes open and THINK FOR YOURSELF! That includes not relying on scammer blacklists to protect you from scammers. Instead think about whether the communication you have with the woman is building a strong foundation for a loving and lasting relationship. Or is it just a bit of silly flirting and gameplaying?

Posted by: parasionok

Wave,

this guy is quite famous. He didn't send me naked pictures, but I know he did to other women. I think he is about to come to Moscow and meet with several women there. I don't think he has any serious intentions whatsoever and the letters he sends out are very offensive....

And you are right, blacklists won't help. If people cannot judge for themselves and think for themselves, no reference sites will prevent them from being scammed.

Posted by: rob_we

wave,para

yess thats very true.

..and another remark about all this scamming issue.

Lets assume a russian girl is seriously looking for a guy from US.
She is on the web for a while, made her first, (most probably bad) experiences, learned that only about 2-5% of all guys are even going further than just chatting, and that probably more then 50% of this rest are cheaters. I think these assuptions are even optimistic!

So she is talking to several guys at a time, trying to find "the one".

She knows about all the married sex-tourists and pretenders on the web, she is careful, not naive.

Our guy from the US (he could be from everywhere) arrives.

Case 1: She likes him, goes out with him, everything is good.
The guy is an exception, is true falls in love with her she is thinking about it, accepts some presents.

Some time later another guy comes, she instantly falls in love with this second guy.
Bang. The first guy is angry, screams scammer, because he spent so much money blablabla. Should she be procecuted?

Case 2: He arrives, she doesn´t like him at all. No chemistry froim her side. She is cold. (of course)
Bang: The guy is angry comes back, screams scammer, because he spent so much money blablabla. Should she be procecuted?

I think a lot of girls on the black lists, or who are accused to be scammers just would fit into one case one or two in a way.

Again i do not want to run a pro scam campain here, as some people seem to understand. I just think, due to my russian Lady I am with 24/7, and who is quite active on the web, that the betrayal cheat and scam on the guys side to mee seems much more obvious and problematic than the girls side.

...and I would love to see a blacklist for guys, done with the same easygoing criteria used for the russian girls!

I think the owner of the website would be sued to death after a week!

Posted by: RomanticTX

Para,

I was talking to a friend that is a lawyer, laws regarding privacy in pictures are not very clear. Specially if a person has posted pictures in any public website. It means that this person has decided to relinquish to his/her anonymity.

I believe guys of such low moral MUST be denounced! It is necessary to have one blacklist website for guys! I’m surprised there isn’t one already.

ANYONE who wants to defraud MUST be EXPOSED!

Maybe that would cut down the rates of deception.
RomanticTX

Posted by: parasionok

Roma,

I also think that

ANYONE who wants to defraud MUST be EXPOSED!

But Rob_we had a good point to start this thread... What do we mean by a scammer? I get letters from guys still, and I know they do massive mailing... I got this letter some time ago:

Hello there,

My name is Jim and I am from Texas, USA. I am a
very busy person who has grown tired of American
women. I have met many great women from Russia
and the CIS. I would like to sponsor some of you
ladies to come here and be my live in girlfriends. I
own a restaurant and you will be able to meet 1000’s
of people on a weekly basis who are successful and
interesting to be around. I have studied Russia and
very much want to travel there extensively. There are
so many places in your beautiful country that I want to
go but I have no time right now I know how hard
things are there and would like to bring some beautiful
fun young ladies here to live the good life for a while.
If it works out, great if not, who cares at least we both
had fun. I need someone who is private, very sensual,
useful (help out at my business, in my home and keep
care of my two dogs) and likes to have adventurous
fun Write me back if you are up to the adventure. If
you have some girlfriends who would like to join you I
would consider them also.

Jim

On the one hand, this person is quite honest and telling a girl right away what he wants from her...

Is he a scammer?

Or he is doing some charity work to bring poor Russians to the US?

Another example:

Hi Miss Sexy!
Here is the deal.
You move to Sweden and get a job as my private secretery. You will get
a good salary for that - if you do a good
job - and you will also get an apartment in the middle of Stockholm. All
expensives paid.
What you will give me in return is the possibility to have sex. I need
sex many times a day and I want you and
me to have that often.
I am married and I will stay married to the same woman. So this cant ever
be anything else but based on work
and sex.
You will of course meet other men in Sweden and if you find a man you
want
to marry, our sex will stop.
How does this sound?
Alec

This guy seems to be very honest and he is telling exactly what he wants... do you think it is a scam?

Your thoughts, gentlemen, will be greatly appreciated...

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

I think Alec is NUTS - plain and simple .
Jim is taking the ~~ss - he says it as it is but he is tired of american women because he sounds like maybe local women who live in his town do not like the idea of a threesome or polygamy- he is certainly sounds like one voucher short of a pop up toaster.

rattle

Posted by: rob_we

Guys,

I mean thats the brutal reality of letters russian girls receive day by day! Thousands of them.
Will these guys be procecuted even IF they are from US or EU? No!
For what? They tell the truth! Thats what the law says!
But I think anybody can see the attituide!
So don´t you think someone who receives those letters get a certain picture?
A picture which is quite different to the "bad russian girls scammer" picture that is created by most guys?

What I mean and what is so brilliatlly shown by para is:
Don´t do the "James Bond" investigation!
Show you are different. Then the girls are too.
If you are treated like a hore then you maybe act like one sooner or later!
Be NOT the prick they expect you to be after all this insults!
Don´t be afraid of anybody. Talk Talk Talk!

Then you find your girl.

I found mine over a year ago. And she is the most beautiful girl on this planet!
And if you don´t believe in farytales, then start now!
I can assure you. They DO exist!

Posted by: FlashingEyes

parasionok,

Both of your examples above involved people who would attempt to get work visas but really want a girlfriend (who would also work). It is illegal to transport people into any western country for purposes of working for sex. The visa application would be a fraud, so these are scams. Also, it is illegal in the US to make sex a condition of hiring someone (aside from very specific cases such as a prostitute working in Nevada). Jim's offer is illegal for this additional reason, and I'm pretty sure the other one's is too.

You are correct - both men are relatively truthful, but what they propose is illegal, and they are thus scammers.

Posted by: rob_we

Flash.
an email is no written contract and not of any value as a proof not in europe and not in the us.
...and don´t even dream about even IF there were written facts or contracts any russian girl could successfully procecute one of these guys in US or EU.
If you want I can give you some insights about legal issuse in business between EU and US. I have an international business running and some experience with it! Even with contracts you better dig it and move on! NO chance mate in the real world!
Despite this I do not think theses guys would write this on any piece of paper.
The point of para, if I understood her right, is to show you the attitude and the picture of lots of western guys towards those girls.
If you talk to russian girls ANY single one of them can tell you about those or similar humiliating letters.
Its about the picture of us guys the girls get when they are trying to get in touch with us.
So its on us to correct it!

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we,

You are incorrect about the US. If the girl actually came to the US and what was proposed actually happened, these e-mails could be used as evidence to pursue both criminal and civil action.

Please don't pretend to be an expert on US law just because you have a business that occasionally buys and sells in the US.

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by FlashingEyes
rob_we,

You are incorrect about the US. If the girl actually came to the US and what was proposed actually happened, these e-mails could be used as evidence to pursue both criminal and civil action.

Please don't pretend to be an expert on US law just because you have a business that occasionally buys and sells in the US.

Just ask the various Wall St guru analyst about weither email can land you in prison. Ask the executives at world com and enron... Email in the US is treated as a formal WRITTEN form of communication in the US. It is often used in both civic and criminal cases

Posted by: rob_we

Flashing eyes ...somehow i dont understand why we always end up in the theoretical wonderland.
Probably you are such an expert, but ...
[I]1. It depends on the relative sophistication and computer friendliness of jurists.

2. It requires those jurists to make fine distinctions between evidence that is entirely generated by computer and evidence generated by computer that contains embedded statements.

3. The manner in which the evidence is retrieved (beyond chain of custody issues) is not subject to the same level of judicial scrutiny as that of other evidence.

4. The idea that since anything digital is subject to manipulation, the possibility exists that the evidence was tampered with or even fabricated.

5. No industry standards exist for imaging data from a hard drive. Rather, several methods have gained acceptance as ways of performing this function.

6. The software that images or copies hard drives is not usually required to pass an evidentiary hearing.

7. The collector of the evidence often acts as a quasi-expert and is asked to render an opinion with respect to the implications of the data.

Computer forensics is the discipline of applying computer investigation and analysis techniques in the interests of determining potential evidence, and it plays a prominent role in the discovery process of electronic evidence. It has not yet achieved, however, the same status as, say, fingerprints or DNA evidence in terms of the courts’ comfort with incorporating it into the discovery process. Courts have addressed this relatively new discipline in a variety of ways. One computer forensics manual (the “Byron Collie manual”) summed up the special issues by stating that:

in order to meet legal requirements for the production of computer evidence in court, the evidence handling protocols mentioned throughout this paper have been developed. These protocols determine that computer evidence needs to be:

1. Admissible. It must conform to certain legal rules before it can be put before a jury;

2. Authentic. It must be possible to positively tie evidentiary material to the incident;

3. Complete. It must tell the whole story and not just a particular perspective;

4. Reliable. There must be nothing about how the evidence was collected and subsequently handled which causes doubt about its authenticity and veracity; and

5. Believable. It must be readily believable and understandable to members of a jury.[I]

see http://www.4law.co.il/Lea410.htm
see also http:// www.usyd.edu.au/su/is/comms/ security/ intrusion_investigation.html

so you see YESS in theory is IS an evidence. but pleeeeease dont tell me that IF a russian girl spends all the money she earns in three lifetimes and comes with a print of her e-mail or her little computer with her hacked russian windows to america, takes an international lawyer and goes to court she will have a chance against one of theses guys? Even IF what then?
Wake up please. How many internatioal trials did you have in you life? Please don´t try to be so ignorant about the reality.
In theory everybody is nice and everyone is your friend anyways!

Posted by: rob_we

Robohio,

i agree as long as the russian girl has a mainframe with daily backups and a bunch of international lawyers at home.
Yup then she has probably no problem...

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we,

How can you pretend to be so knowledgeable about computer e-mail issues as they relate to evidence in US trials and be making assumptions like the evidence would be gathered from "a print of her e-mail or her little computer with her hacked russian windows to america". Even most lay people here in America would instantly know that US service providers keep backups of all incoming and outgoing e-mail, and this is how the government has successfully tracked down e-mail in a huge number of cases and successfully used it as evidence? Again, it is very sad how your basic lack of knowlege coexists with your desire to be an expert on everything in America.

Posted by: rob_we

Flash,

i think its hard to get around you lecturing me.
I wont bore you with the fact that i work in computer network and internet busines for about 15 years now.
I will also not bother to bore you with the fact that even the US isps store some e-mail only for some limited time.
I will not even start to bore you with the fact that you just have to use any free or payed non us or eu e-mail provider to get around this totally. If you want just google "free e-mail provider".
But you know it better anyway I know.
And all because I don´t understand the english language.
Just tell it to the russian girls and i am sure they will all come and successfully sue the us scammers and get rich from it

..just for anybody else who is interrested.
any e-mail composed in an http based e-mail web-client is not recognizeable as such by any local isp.
It is sent from the location of the server where it is composed which could be located in any country on the planet. Most international ISP still do not backup e-mails because of cost issues. There is no way to get this e-mail back after it has been remove from the users account.
Thats the sad truth ....

Posted by: FlashingEyes

So now your original argument that the American's e-mail offering to obtain a work visa for parasionok for sex could never contribute to an actual conviction...

has now devolved to...

IF the guy used a specific, and highly technical approach, utilizing extra-USA servers and HTML coding, THEN he could avoid conviction...

but if he used the typical approach of 99% of the US population, your special cases won't apply.

Posted by: rob_we

flash,

nobody uses his original home e-mail. Eveybody is using a web client, because everybody is afraid of spam, scam and some are afraid to be caught! Look ant the e-mail endings.
Have you ever seen a guy posting with endings like @ibm.com @microsoft.com @infineon.com or @aol.com. I have NEVER. Nobody is THAT stupid.... and everybody knows this actually, even the russian girls

Free e-mail hosts are hosting more than 90% of all e-mails worldwide by the way, to give you just a number... Its no special html coding, just a html client as in www.myway.com for example ...
Not really high sophisticated so

Posted by: FlashingEyes

Actually most people use their home e-mail here in the US. Again, what you know about Germany does not necessarily translate...

It used to be easy for sophisticated users (a very small % even today) to get a free e-mail client without giving up personal information, but today most free e-mail clients used by US citizens require some sort of information so ultimately the users can be traced back. But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.

Posted by: rob_we

Flash,

from all you wrote before i can see you are a true computer expert.

Just one last thing then i believe you everything here. On what numbers do you base your assuption. Please give me a link where i can see this numbers you say. Lets say you talk about 75% ? Im in the business and know quite a view numbers about e-mail and isp use available on the web especially in the eu and us. Just gimme the link that proofes this....
Im sure you did not just invent this right now...

again the proof of having sent something is not enough to be procecuted for its specific content. Of course you can use the ip log to proove something has been sent by a given user at a given time flash but due to the fact that an e-mail at the recipients side can be easily modified it is no valid proof.

And despite the fact that we also operate in us quite successful, its a given truth that internet communication is the same everywhere on the panet!

Posted by: parasionok

Quote:

Originally posted by FlashingEyes
So now your original argument that the American's e-mail offering to obtain a work visa for parasionok for sex could never contribute to an actual conviction...

has now devolved to...

IF the guy used a specific, and highly technical approach, utilizing extra-USA servers and HTML coding, THEN he could avoid conviction...

but if he used the typical approach of 99% of the US population, your special cases won't apply.

Flash,

I work for an American company. Say, if my boss wants to fire me, he should send me an official warning first. No warning received by an e.mail is valid (mind, an internal corporate e.mail).

So I do not believe an e.mail can be the sole ground to start a law suit. I´am not an international lawyer, but I have heard that internet abuse laws are quite evasive. Same as international telecommunications laws. There are ITU-recommendations, but it is very difficult to sue someone who are not following them. Still we keep referring to them in contract.

I just don't know if there were any cases when an abused Russian or Ukrainian girl started any legal procedures against scammers. If anybody has heard of cases like that, I would be very interested to know.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we,

I'll be happy to continue this discussion and provide you all you have asked for as soon as you provide me with what I asked for first - please prove the person was using a free e-mail client that retains no personal information about users

<
But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.>>

P.S. parasionok, anything can be used as the basis for a lawsuit, but more importantly, what rob is trying to defend is that an "e-mail is not of any value as proof" in a trial, which means that it's ok if there is other proof as well and the e-mail is only part of the proof.

Posted by: RomanticTX

Para,

Companies operating in foreign countries stick to the rules and laws of that specific country. Here in the US, an e-mail even a Voicemail (we use those quite a bit in my industry) can and are being used as evidence.

Recently, one of the governmental organizations here in the US impounded the voicemails and e-mails databases of one of our competitors and are conducting an investigation.

I do not think there is a lot of legal action in scamming either way. From the West to the East or viceversa.

However, let me tell you that I have never tried to scam a girl in my life, and I receive e-mails from scammers almost in a weekly basis, maybe more!

Posted by: parasionok

Romantic,

only the original e.mail that can be retrieved by computer forensics can be an evidence. My mainframe was based in the US but e.mails were not saved due to the fact that we used HTTP e,mail clients. So everything should have been send in hard copies. It is common in MY industry because it prevents normal e.mail communication to be processed through the intranet as it is much more cost effective. Only secure e.mails go through the intranet.

If you are on certain dating sites, then it is normal that you receive letters asking you for money, professing eternal love, etc. I receive those as well. I receive at least 100 spam e.mails on a daily basis. I use www.honduras.com e.mail for my personal correspodence and I receive lots of letters from Nigeria or Ivory Coast asking me to pay 5-6 grand to help with their million dollars transactions...

I just delete those e.mails as everybody should delete e.mails that you receive from russian scammers. I think everybody is so well educated already and know how all those e.mails normally look like.

Posted by: rob_we

flash

ok i try .

Again the point is not about to see personal info of someone. The point is that an ISP would have to securely store the e-mail that was sent NOT only the user information. Otherwise I could print out your e-mail header of an e-mail you sent me. Combine it with a letter that says you wanna kill my kid, go to the us. Show it to the court and you would go to jail. Dont´t we both agree atg least in this point, that this would probably not work?

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we,

I am still waiting for you to prove what e-mail service the sender used. (parasionok, both your server and the sender's server can save e-mails - even if yours didn't, his might have).

<
But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.>>

Posted by: rob_we

Flash
I think this will end up in the same manner as the moral discussion. I think we both should not waste our time any more.
We already showed there is no common ground for us.
Lets both admit you are right, because you are american ...

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we,

I do not accept that I should win only because I am an American. I am speaking truth; you are not; therefore, your position is indefensible. I am still waiting for you to prove what e-mail service the sender used.

<
But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.>>

Posted by: parasionok

Flash, Rob,

I don't know which e.mail this person is using. I got his letter on LuckyLovers. If you want, I can find it out for you.

Posted by: RobOhioGuy

Quote:

Originally posted by parasionok
Flash,

I work for an American company. Say, if my boss wants to fire me, he should send me an official warning first. No warning received by an e.mail is valid (mind, an internal corporate e.mail).

So I do not believe an e.mail can be the sole ground to start a law suit. I´am not an international lawyer, but I have heard that internet abuse laws are quite evasive. Same as international telecommunications laws. There are ITU-recommendations, but it is very difficult to sue someone who are not following them. Still we keep referring to them in contract.

I just don't know if there were any cases when an abused Russian or Ukrainian girl started any legal procedures against scammers. If anybody has heard of cases like that, I would be very interested to know.

You really might want to rethink that view about email. Jack Grubman got nailed by the AG of Ny (warren spitzer) for falsely and knowingly touting up telecom stocks. The ENTIRE case hinged on email. Without the emails, there was no case. Grubman lost his job, can no longer work in the securities industry.

Email can be the sole source of a law suit and is routinely the grounds for termination by many companies. Email is considered formal written documentaion.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

parasionok,

It appears that luckylovers keeps copies of all material sent between members, including e-mail, thus having the ability to investigate them, as stated in it's guidelines:

"LuckyLovers reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action in its sole discretion against anyone...- posting texts and/or pictures containing porno/nudity, using phrases, texts, pictures containing libel, obscene, offensive, violent, racist, porno materials/information anywhere on the site, including Member profile, Chat rooms, Messenger, WebCamera, Forum, Guest Book, Personal Messages, bad language is forbidden anywhere on the site."

Posted by: parasionok

Flash,

well, I think that e.mail is an extended version of what this person is writing in his profile. If noone so far found it offensive, then I guess he is not doing anything wrong.

Para

Posted by: FlashingEyes

I find it offensive.

Posted by: parasionok

Then you should report it to LuckyLovers....

Posted by: rob_we

I will not go on with this @#+~measuring. I work in this business for 15 years and maybe someone is interrested. I might be helpful for those who do not know better...

1; it is wrong that email is generally backuped or stored, not even by the us ISP or elsewere. The amount of e-mail would be physically just too big!
The law is aimed at "Public Companies," i.e., a company that sells shares of its stock to the public. Public companies are regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). (And, yeah, there WERE laws in place that should have precluded Enron and Anderson from having their shredding party.)

So, this means that it won't affect "normal users: individuals, small business owners, and privately-held corporations.
see add1

2;private email is therefore in many cases neither traceble nor proofable

3; It is true that SOME ISP check for a correct existing e-mail and could, due to this, be used to at least track a person to its real adress (as long as this person uses its home pc and not a public computer e.g. internetcafee)

4; Due to "the likelihood of ambiguous drafting" a e-mail evidence may carry less evidential weight than a paper document
see add2

5; The use of any web based e-mail host can prevent that any proof of this email can be taken off a single computer with the aid of computer forensics itself!

6; Big us located ISPs like AOL, Yahoo or Earthlink offer partially or only webbased e-mail hosting.

7; An email, deleted by the sender or the receiver from his ISP account, CAN NOT BE RESTORED in most cases.
see add2

add1:
http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=17338
Topic:Is it going to be illegal to delete emails?
Post Subject:ISPs do not archive email

But, ISPs are not required to archive email; nor do they. I worked in technical support for EarthLink, Inc., for the past 5-1/2 years -- both in Web Hosting and Connectivity accounts. And, as of March 16th (our last day before all of our jobs went offshore,) no email was regularly being archived beyond a maximum of a 24-hour period.

I know because I had a couple of issues during the final week on the phones where "timing was of the essence" in attempting to get an issue escalated up to the Engineers as quickly as possible in an attempt to retrieve email before the 24-hour period ran out.

I know that the policy was for Connectivity customers, i.e., dialup/broadband, that whenever an account was inactivated, all mail, personal webspaces, etc., were immediately deleted. No retrieval possible. And for WH, since it was deemed to be more Company-oriented, there were more relaxed policies on when an account was inactivated for non-payment. And, if there was mail on the server when an account was inactivated, mail remained in each mailbox for up to 90 days. Websites were then tarballed for another 90 days. After 180 days, all files for an account were permanently deleted. I was told that the 180-day web hosting files WAS a legally-mandated issue.

The Carnivore project by the FBI (renamed DCS1000 in early 2001 as a more "benign" or innocuous name) was an issue that was not allowed to be discussed in any manner whatsoever by ELNK employees; so, if there were manditory mail archiving procedures in place, it was not accessible nor discussable. Although, there certainly would have been "some" muttering or rumors on the floor for the vastly increased amount of equipment that would have been necessary for the mail servers -- and this never surfaced. We had internal chats and criss-cross visits between the various call centers and the increased amount of space and equipment needed for archiving all email would have shown up "somewhere," and it didn't.

However, from what little information did reach the public via the news media, the primary concern of the FBI was "certain content," and those specific or individual accounts might have been archived, by either EarthLink or the FBI's Carnivore project itself -- but not all accounts in general--each suspect account required a Federal Court Order (although, secondary accounts sending and receiving email through the court-ordered one(s) are monitored, too).

If archiving were a fact, Earthlink would not have been able to rollout the Spam filters/blockers that were part of all connectivity account mailboxes. They separate "known spam" into a separate folder and it's auto-deleted after 14 days.

EarthLink may not be the biggest ISP, but it's still No. 3 or whatever ranking it currently holds. I would estimate that there are well over 30 million individual mailboxes for connectivity accounts, and the WH ones number in the several million category.

I would categorically deny that ISPs must archive all email or that most do.

add2:
http://www.reedsmith.com/library/pu...cfm?itemid=3843
Topic: E-Commerce Law & Policy (thats more for busines use between companies but even here, with recorded data! there is a devaluation of the evidential weight of email!!!)
Therefore, although there may be no legal bar to reliance upon email in contracting (and having email evidence of a contract is preferable to an entirely oral agreement), the effect of email’s informality and flexibility should be considered. This character increases the likelihood of ambiguous drafting, may allow for easy amendment by an unscrupulous party and may undermine the value of the contemporaneous document as reliable evidence of the terms of an agreement. For this reason it is suggested that email may carry less evidential weight than a paper document and it may not be suitable as a matter of business or legal practice to the task of evidencing contractual terms.

---end of discussion----

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we

I am still waiting for you to prove what e-mail service the sender used, and that it does not retain e-mail.

<
But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.>>

Posted by: FlashingEyes

Yahoo does retain sent and received e-mail messages on its server, saves backups of its server, and this e-mail can and has been recovered for criminal and civil prosecution.

http://techlawjournal.com/alert/2002/11/19.asp

rob_we

I am still waiting for you to prove that the service the sender used (yahoo) does not retain e-mail.

<
But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.>>

Posted by: rob_we

Flash.

as i said several times, lets just drop it. It makes no sense.
Be happy and let me be happy too.

I will answer this despite the fact that it is worthless anyway. I know you know better...

First. This guy was procecuted for children pornography. The e-mail provided by yahoo was found in the defendants mailbox.
If you keep your letters in your mailbox and do not erase them, everyone can find them who loggs in or who searches the system.
But we were talking about an ISP backup of a sent e-mail This means a record of what actually has been sent! It is possible without any programmers knowledge to alter e-mails that are stored in your sent e-mails folder. That is why this allone is a quite weak evidence. A real backup taken by the isp as thought about in the carnivore project combined with the users log on the other hand, would be a different story. But this is not done until now.
So back to my first statement it is quite unlikely that someone who is accused of sending illegal e-mails will keep those in his mailbox.
If he does than it is like a murderer who carries the smoking gun he used.
In this case, yes it might be possible. Everywhere you might encounter an idiot. But I think it would be hard to globalize it.
Again, just to cut off the "linguistic aspect" i was talking about the odds. The odds are, due to all fact still quite bad here.
But let it just be my opinion and I let you yours. Maybe you love pointless discussions, I dont.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

A scam is a way to deprive someone permanently of money using deception and a scammer is someone who is willing to practice deception in orderto acheive this goal.

For women , money is the objective of the scam - for a man it may be both money and sex .

Rattle

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we

I am still waiting for you to prove that the services the sender used (yahoo & luckylovers) do not retain e-mail.

<
But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.>>

Posted by: rob_we

rattle,

what would you think about this example:

a girl gets together with a guy. The guy wants to be with the girl but the girl doesn't like him very much (she has doubts that it works). She tell him she has doubts but he tries to win her. He is offering presents. She accepts them during her "thinking phase". Later she tells him she has made a decision and that she doe not want to be with him.
Is she a scammer?

Posted by: rob_we

Flash,

again please drop the topic. Lets both be happy with our different opinion. I do not want to go on with this. It will not lead to anything new. All is said here already....

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Rob , according to my definition she is not a scammer because she is not trying to get money off the guy and she is not being dishonest. The majority of scams occur via the internet - visa/ airfare- lets meet at the airport etc scam . The scenario you painted is not a scam - I think the lady is just doing what many people would do - not looking a gift horse in the mouth so to speak .
I know where you are coming from on this ..... many guys scream " scammer " when in actual fact they were just too dumb to read the signals that the lady was not remotely interested in a serious relationship and these guys felt bad that they had spent all that money on gifts ets , etc .Well I do not see this as a scam .

I think that where the man has never met the women and he sends her money thinking that the money will be used to pay for visa and airfare this is defintely a scam because in 99% of cases the money is pocketed and spent on other things .

Rattle

Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we,

I don't see why I should withdraw from my position when you still can't prove that the services the sender used (yahoo & luckylovers) do not retain e-mail, because they do, and you are wrong.

<
But unless you can PROVE that this person was using a free e-mail client that doesn't keep any personal information about users, then your statement that the e-mail is "not of any value as a proof not in ... the us" is still indefensible.>>

Posted by: rob_we

rattle

absolutely. I think so too . Of course the problem is very often (I said this already somewhere else here and I have seen this quite some time happen) that guys get girls who are 3 numbers "too big" for them to handle. They somehow assume a woman like this could be in reach for them because of the additional anmount of "shag factor" (sorry fo the word but I think its somehow fitting ) the guys thinks to have because he is western european or american.
But this beauty is used to presents, being taken out being taken care of. The guy of course never was with a woman like this before an misinterprets her behaviour totally. But he does not want to let her go of course.
In the end there is the mess between her thinking:
"Ok I went out with him, he was nice, but I decided that I do not want to be with him (any more)."
and him thinking
"she only wanted to scam" because she somehow shows him what he more or less knew before: He can not have a girl like this! To my opinion, this is what I see quite often in various cases. Just the timing WHEN this (big boom) takes place is different...

Posted by: Lola

I have read one discussion on antidate about this problem, And there women asked who is male scammer. So after a while one lady shared her experience in this topic it is in russian... but now they translated this in english so you could read it too.
her conclusions are very interesting
http://www.lillavilla.com/forumzz/viewtopic.php?t=102
read second post

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Lola , thanks for the post and the link -I am trying my best to learn russian , I have agreed to live in my girl freind's country if life in UK is too hard for her and I do not need a housekeeper ( I am excellent cook ).
I spoke to english men before I embarked on this road and one englishman told me that it is important always to put thoughts about visa / better economic life at the back of ones mind - I can see what he was getting at - in many ways if my gf gets a visa to live in my country she will have to give up her job , her flat , her familly and her freinds and if the relaionship fails ( which I do not want) she will return the loser. So I totally agree - in my book it is the woman who makes the bigger sacrifice. I also know that I do not know how she will react to the english culture whch can be cold and indifferent .

To let you see how difficult life is - I have told my gf I can housekeep but she wants to do this - I would prefer for her to learn english at college because this will help her get a job and earn her own money etc - she doesnt want this ( yet I hope she will agree to go to college ) _ I have assumed so many things Lola about someome from the fsu.
( just as I guess she has assumed things about me ).

The link is accurate in some respects .. I looked for relationships in the UK first and would never have considered the fsu as a place to look had there not been a TV programme on russian marriage agencies. In retrospect , I would now avoid marriage agencies like the plague - they help noone but themselves.

I am glad the issue of male scammers has and will be discussed.
All too often it is women who are painted as the scammer .

rattle

Posted by: parasionok

I just found these signs of scam on Bogdana dating site....

Signs of scam

I cannot say that if you come across all the things I am going to describe, it will characterize your lady as scammer. This information is just for your analysis so that you can ask yourself the question "Whom am I dealing with?" in time.

1. A lady has a computer at home which gives her an opportunity to reply to you 1-2 times a day.
2. She has an email address such as Yahoo, Hotmail, mail.ru, free.mail etc.
3. A flattering voice on the phone.
4. Her quick reply to your question what is the best way to send her money.
5. In her letters: "I don't need anything from you. I only want to see you…"

I have been wondering..... ARE THEY BLOODY SERIOUS?

What do you think about those 5 red flags?

Posted by: Jill

Perhaps number 4....But I think the rest are ridiculous

Posted by: wavetossed

1. This is fair because they are located in Vinnitsa and it is likely that in their city, home computers are rare except for people who run a business at home. And scamming is certainly a business. However, I think this is fast becoming out of date advice.

2. Again, in this city, it may be somewhat reasonable because it costs money to use the Internet and most single women do not earn enough to afford such a luxury.

3. This sounds a bit odd, but my experience with people living in small towns suggests that they would sound rather timid and uncertain on the phone. Maybe they are hinting at this. On the other hand, maybe they really meant to use the word "praising". In other words if the woman is constantly saying flattering things to the man, that is suspicious.

4. Wierd. Why would a western man, with flat-rate access to the Internet 24 hours a day and years of experience using search engines, be asking such a question in the first place. Sounds like a professional victim asking the woman to take him for a ride.

5. This seems the opposite to me. She wants to meet this guy. Of course she could be a thrillseeker or a sex-starved lonely woman or a sweet young thing swept off her feet with puppy love. But it doesn't sound like a scammer at all. I know that scammers will say things like this to play the victim and hook him but that's because they are pretending to be genuine girls.

By the way, I sent my friend money via Western Union after writing to her for about 6 weeks. It was the only way she could afford to receive international phone calls. Later, I visited her, we fell in love and she is now my girlfriend. She will be visiting me in London starting Sunday. During our relationship, several times there were things happening that were classic signs of a scammer except for one tiny detail. I'm glad that I always thought things over and noticed that she was a perfect match for a scammer except for one tiny detail, because if I had accused her I would have been wrong.

Her mobile phone really was stolen. The man who sent her message to me was a guy at a computer club who she paid to send me a message about why the phone was disconnected. Her friend with Internet connectivity really did have a sick child and she really did have to go to another town for two weeks for treatment. It's just real life.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Para , I think ( 1) is definitely true- I didnt meet many women with computers at home and again someone willing to send me 2 or more messages a day is really strange behaviour .

I think ( 4) is by far the clearest sign of scam - without a doubt .

I think (2) is not neccessarily scam - some people use several e mail addresses for various reasons .

(3) and (5) may not be a scam ...people fall in love you - you know this .

Rattle

Posted by: Jill

Well, with #1--I guess it depends on the city. In smaller towns, you're right, it is not very common to have a computer at home.

But in larger cities--Moscow, St. Pete, Kiev--it is becoming increasingly common. Most people (only one or two exceptions) I worked with in Kiev had home computers and internet access, as did my husband when we met--actually we essentially met over an online chat--and we would write back and forth quite frequently in the evenings and on the weekends. I never saw this as suspcious

Of course, many people do NOT own a computer, but I wouldn't necessarily see computer ownership as a red flag.

Posted by: Lola

Quote:

1. A lady has a computer at home which gives her an opportunity to reply to you 1-2 times a day.

I have PC at home and even earn money using it, so I am scammer!

Quote:

2. She has an email address such as Yahoo, Hotmail, mail.ru, free.mail etc.

I have 7 e-mail addresses including Yahoo, hotmail, mail.ru and so on, so I am scammer!!!!

Quote:

3. A flattering voice on the phone.

O, I have magical voice and often use it to earn my money, so I am scammer, once again

Quote:

4. Her quick reply to your question what is the best way to send her money.

I always reply quickly because think it is polite to not make somebody wait for your answer, so I am scammer

Quote:

5. In her letters: "I don't need anything from you. I only want to see you…"

WOW, if I knew before that it is pretty usual for american to write: dear, I would want to be your heir, so how much money are you going to leave for me after you will die, I would for sure write just that. But I always write I would want to see you... well so i am scammer in any case!!!
Then tell me, guys, if I am scammer why don't you send me your hardearned money? ot your wallets are empty?

Quote:

What do you think about those 5 red flags?

This **** is spreaded usually by marriage agencies which want to earn using blockheads

Posted by: wavetossed

Quote:

This **** is spreaded usually by marriage agencies which want to earn using blockheads

Lola, this is very rude. You should really say:

Quote:

This crap is spread, usually by marriage agencies which want to profit from blockheads

This way your listeners won't be shocked at your language. If you are in England, you can also say:

Quote:

This ****e is spread, usually by marriage agencies which want to profit from wankers

That's because in England we have special bad words that can be used publicly but will only shock people who go to church on Sunday.

Some more examples. American English only uses the first and last form, but England uses all three.

Make love - shag - ****
French kiss - snog - ???
Crap - ****e - ****
Clueless - wanker - ****wit

Posted by: parasionok

Wave,

Lola is not a native speaker so she might use words that are euphemisms in England or the US. You also use õóé word somewhere on the forum... This word is a strong euphemism and is not to be used anywhere in the press or on TV in Russia.

You should forgive us russians for our wrong english words usage... As you very well know, Russian is a very direct language... up to the point... we often translate things literally, hence we might appear to be rude without the intention to do so... After all, it is a russian meeting place... And we mostly speak english without using electronic traslators... If we did, you would not be able to understand us at all IMHO

Posted by: wavetossed

I don't blame you for using odd words. In fact, I can understand Russians even when they are using electronic translators because I know a lot of Russian myself. If I see a strange word used in English, I translate it into Russian and I usually understand where the mistake originates.

By the way, there is a chain of clothing shops in England called French Connection UK. They normally use their initials FCUK and sell lots of clothes with these letters in large letters across the front. They even sell childrens clothes so you can walk down the street in London and see a 5 year old girl with a light pink sweatshirt saying FCUK holding her mother's hand. In England, you cannot say the word "****" on TV until after 9 pm in the evening but you can say "shag" any time of the day. I have even seen FCUK clothes on the morning TV programs that families watch before school.

Did you realise that my message is about scammers? Most people who suspect a scammer are victims of misunderstanding. They are really speaking two different languages, even when both languages are English. If two people from the same culture can have difficulty finding true understanding, then I think it is likely that two people from different cultures will suffer the same problems. Misunderstanding is never cured by anger or by knee-jerk reactions. It is cured by calm and careful communication. Sometimes, after the misunderstanding is cured, you discover that there was no scammer. Sometimes, you forgive the scammer. And sometimes you don't.

I have heard several accounts where men were being scammed and when they reacted like gentlemen, instead of cowboys, the girls stopped being scammers and ended up being faithful wives.

I can understand why some men would prefer to be cowboys but I think that they should not try to impose their cowboy views on everyone. There is no RIGHT way. There are many right ways.

Posted by: James Riske

Hi Wave,

There's a difference between imposing one's views on others and giving advice and simply because you sent your girlfriend money and things worked out doesn't mean that all men should unquestionably send money to women they haven't even met.

Personally, I adhere to the 'never send money' rule but that's just me. And if someone asks advice, I say, "Don't send money and dump her." I don't flame others for giving other advice or holding other views as I'm sure you don't either.

Hey, what's wrong with being a cowboy? I may live in the city now but I'm a cowboy at heart and can ride, rope, and shoot like the rest of them. I grew up in the country. I'm even a Surefire Trail Cook member and cook western all the time. I ride about once every two weeks now and stay at my friend's ranch in the country every month or so. I love being a cowboy and can think of no other life that's more in touch with nature and enjoyable and healthy. When I retire, I'll be on a ranch for sure! I love animals and farming and ranching. I'm never met more friendly and open and helpful people anywhere other than a good old cowboy or cowgirl.

your friend,

James

Posted by: parasionok

Wave,

FCUK clothing example is extremely funny... I didnt know about this chain, but I when I am in the Uk, I will buy a t-shirt or something there for sure. My bf collects T-shirts and he has some funny ones like FBI (Femaile Body Inspector) or Banana Appeal or KGB and all sorts....

Again and again I was explaining my theory about how people get scammed. They assume from the very beginning that very few russian women speak english or any other foreign language... so when they receive letters from russian women no matter how ridiculous those letters sound, they are accepted under the pretext that Ok, she doesnt speak my language or she speaks on the level of a first grade kid... BUT as I pointed out before there are hundreds of universities in Russia with a foreign languages chair and lots of girls are majoring in english or german or french... Translator, foreign language teacher, or interpreter are one of the most popular professions in russia...

If two people more or less can communicate in one common language, the possibility of scam will be reduced... I explain why: if I had an agency, I would expect my business to be profitable... What those agencies are making money on? 1. providing e.mail or postal address of women 2. offering translation services 3. offering intermediary communication between a guy and a girl i.e. printing out his letters, typing in her letters (given that women do not own computers or cannot afford to pay for internet cafes).... So if I owned a dating agency, I would definitely look for my women clients who 1. do not speak any foreign language 2. do not have a computer 3. can not affor to go to an internet cafe two times a week (ca. 3-10 dollars a week given that she uses internet one hour a day 3 times a week depending on the city).

Then if a guy employs my agency's services including translation service, then I am interested to provide him with what he expects to receive means GOOD SERVICE... In order to keep my client I would 1. train the girls what and how to reply to e.mails...2. what to write in their profiles... 3. by translating the girls letters, I might "alter" original context in order to keep the customer write to that or several girls...

That's my opinion... That's what I think how these agencies are doing business... That's how I would have done dating business if I were located in a provincial city in Russian and decided to make some money... I am thinking as someone who would have worked on a business plan for a start up business like this...

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