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The Russian Meeting Place: A place to meet people and talk about all things Russian...
International Discussions about Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Travel, Music, Russian News, Ukrainian culture, Belarusian Dating, Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kiev and other intelligent topics about life in the former Soviet Union. |
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, but I thought that it would be interesting to take a rough anonymous poll and see who registered forum members are probably going to vote for in this November's Presidential election. but I am interested in seeing how a sample of 100 of our members would vote.|
Originally posted by Jutman My country has a in Europe a extreme hostile attitude, but still the 10 times more easier and quick than USA, regarding visa to my country. |
... Although, I do preffer the Libertarian candidate and especially his economic views.
| And not to offend anyone, but any Ukrainians that love and admire Putin are probably "Ukrainians" in name only. There is a huge Russian minority in the eastern and southern Ukraine that dearly misses Moscow. |
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Originally posted by Missouri Well you guys just might motivate me to start a new thread on "The War Against British Agression". |
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Originally posted by Eryk ROFL ...if only I had the time . The American War of Independence was not won by Washington or anyone else on US soil, it was won because Napoleon was tying up too many resources elsewhere and the political view at the time was that it wasn't worth the effort to crush the rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters. The timber reserves in Canada were thought to be valuable so those were not going to be surrendered, but the rest of the explored USA at that time was judged not to be worth the bother. Read the British Parliamentery papers of the time. Eryk |
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Who do you support for President? Kerry 87% Bush 13% Total Votes: 1646 |
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Originally posted by Jill I do agree that voting among the general US population will be MUCH closer. However, I just thought that it was interesting that Americans with significant overseas experience (such as RPCVs) seem to be so overwhelmingly for Kerry. Granted this is fairly small sample--but still interesting. |
Of course, every vote cast has equal value. 
But, no, that's not me in either of the two blond wigs Those were two guys who were dressed up for the Halloween parade.
reasons some people had for voting for him 
and I was happy to hear the rumor that Ashcroft is on his way out
| I think I'll get some milage out of the PB cups by turning it into a scavanger hunt. LOL They'll be the prize at the end of the rainbow! You'd be looking for clues for weeks. |
| I was happy to hear the rumor that Ashcroft is on his way out |
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Originally posted by Jim_FL Well, on the plus side, chances are slim he'll get re-elected next term
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| I hear his brother Jeb has 8 years of eligibility... |
| The election really came down to Ohio, and Bush won that state by 136,483 votes (as of November 6, 2004). |
| Hussein will be brought to justice |
conversation about the war, if they choose to. and you will have the ultimate test pacours for moderators I think
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Originally posted by Khashyar By the way, even though I did vote for Kerry as well as Bill Clinton, there is something about Hillary that seems too much like a politician to me. But, as I mentioned, there is something about her that doesn't sit well with me. |
I am sure that some people might think that... |
Известный американский репортер рассказал в чате, что Пентагон охвачен страхом 05 ноября 2004 18:36 МСК Известный американский репортер Сеймур Херш (Seymour Hersh) из журнала New Yorker принял участие в чате на сайте Washington Post и изложил свое видение текущей политической ситуации в США. Херш является авторитетным публицистом и автором ряда известных журналистских расследований - в частности, именно благодаря ему получили огласку дело об иракской тюрьме "Абу-Граиб" и дело о массовом расстреле американцами мирных жителей во Вьетнаме в 1968 году. Херш редко принимает участие в поддобных конференциях, и его слова стали объектом пристального внимания прессы. В чате на сайте Washingtonpost.com Херш, поддерживавший в ходе прошедших выборов кандидатуру Джона Керри, выступил с критикой в адрес администрации Джорджа Буша и отметил, что во время кампании у избирателей не было достаточного количества объективной информации, чтобы сделать правильный выбор и адекватно оценить политику Буша и предлагаемую политику Керри. Более того, большинство избирателей и не пытались получить подобную информацию, проявляя гражданскую несознательность, цитирует слова Херша издание Editor & Publisher. Херш также заявил, что, по его информации, в настоящее время военное руководство США находится под давлением правительства, и высшие военные чиновники просто "боятся" сообщать Бушу, Чейни или министру обороны Рамсфелду "какие-либо плохие новости", в том числе и новости из Ирака. По его мнению, ситуация в Ираке не находится под контролем американских войск и вскоре реально может встать вопрос о выводе оттуда войск, однако Буш сейчас об этом не знает. |
) Again, this is just one man's opinion, but he raises issues that I am concerned about. |
Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh spills the secrets of the Iraq quagmire and the war on terror By Bonnie Azab Powell, NewsCenter | 11 October 2004 BERKELEY – The Iraq war is not winnable, a secret U.S. military unit has been "disappearing" people since December 2001, and America has no idea how irreparably its torture of Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison has damaged its image in the Middle East. These were just a few of the grim pronouncements made by Pulitzer Prize–winning investigative reporter Seymour "Sy" Hersh to KQED host Michael Krasny before a Berkeley audience on Friday night (Oct. 8). The past two years will "go down as one of the classic sort of failures" in history, said the man who has been called the "greatest muckraker of all time" and (paradoxically) the "enfant terrible of journalism for more than 30 years." While Hersh blamed the White House and the Pentagon for the Iraq quagmire and America's besmirched world image, he was stymied by how it all happened. "How could eight or nine neoconservatives come and take charge of this government?" he asked. "They overran the bureaucracy, they overran the Congress, they overran the press, and they overran the military! So you say to yourself, How fragile is this democracy?" From My Lai to Abu Ghraib That fragility clearly unnerves him. Hersh summarizes his mission as "to hold the people in public office to the highest possible standard of decency and of honesty…to tolerate anything less, even in the name of national security, is wrong." He tries his best. More than any other U.S. journalist alive today, he embodies the statement that "a patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government," a belief defined by the conservationist Edward Abbey. Hersh was working the phone with sources up until the minute the presidential debate began, which he watched with a crowd in North Gate Hall. His country has not always thanked him for it — neocon Pentagon adviser Richard Perle has called Hersh "the closest thing we have to a terrorist," while his 1998 book on John F. Kennedy's administration, "The Dark Side of Camelot," cost him many friends on the left. But Hersh's reputation remains more bulletproof than most. The author of eight books, he first received worldwide recognition (and the Pulitzer) in 1969 for exposing the My Lai massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War. 1982's "The Price of Power: Kissinger in the Nixon White House," painted Henry Kissinger as a war criminal and won Hersh the National Book Critics Circle Award and the Los Angeles Times book prize in biography. Most recently, as a staff writer for the New Yorker, Hersh has relentlessly ferreted out the behind-the-scenes deals, trickery, and blunders associated with the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Back in May 2003, he was the first American reporter to state unequivocally that we would not find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. (A mea culpa from a Slate journalist who doubted Hersh on WMDs also inadvertently confirms his prescient track record.) And in April of this year, he broke the story of how U.S. soldiers had digitally documented their torture and sexual humiliation of Iraqis at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. The several articles he wrote for the New Yorker about Abu Ghraib have been updated and edited into his latest book, "Chain of Command: The Road from 9/11 to Abu Ghraib." "Bush scares the hell out of me" Hersh came to Berkeley at the invitation of UC Berkeley's Graduate School of Journalism and the California First Amendment Coalition. His appearance in the packed ballroom of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Student Union was the fitting end to a week of high-profile events in honor of the 40th anniversary of the Free Speech Movement. The Hersh event began only minutes after the second debate between President George W. Bush and John Kerry concluded. Krasny naturally asked Hersh — who had watched the debate at North Gate Hall stone-faced in the middle of a rowdy crowd — what he thought of the match. "It doesn't matter that Bush scares the hell out of me," Hersh answered. "What matters is that he scares the hell out of a lot of very important people in Washington who can't speak out, in the military, in the intelligence community. They know in ways that none of us know, the incredible gap between what is and what [Bush] thinks." With that, he was off and running. One could safely say that for the next hour, Hersh proceeded to scare the hell out of most of the audience by detailing the gaps between what they knew and what he hears is actually going on in Iraq. While his writing is dense but digestible, in person Hersh speaks with the rambling urgency of a street-corner doomsayer, leaping from point to point and anecdote to anecdote and frequently failing to finish his clauses, let alone his sentences. His train of thought can be difficult to catch a ride on. This evening, it was a challenge for Krasny to slow him down long enough to get a word or question in edgewise. For example, here's a slice of raw Hersh on the current situation in Iraq: I've been doing an alternate history of the war, from inside, because people, right after 9/11, because people inside — and there are a lot of good people inside — are scared, as scared as anybody watching this tonight I think should be, because [Bush], if he's re-elected, has only one thing to do, he's going to bomb the hell out of that place. He's been bombing the hell of that place — and here's what really irritates me again, about the press — since he set up this Potemkin Village government with Allawi on June 28 — the bombing, the daily bombing rates inside Iraq, have gone up exponentially. There's no public accounting of how many missions are flown, how much ordnance is dropped, we have no accounting and no demand to know. The only sense you get is we're basically in a full-scale air war against invisible people that we can't find, that we have no intelligence about, so we bomb what we can see. And yet — despite the more than 1,000 deaths of U.S. soldiers and the horrific number of Iraqi casualties — Bush continues to believe we are doing the right thing, according to Hersh. "He thinks he's wearing the white hat," he said, adding that is what makes this administration different from previous ones whose hypocrisy Hersh has exposed. Bush and the neocons "are not hypocrites." Enter the utopians "I think it's real simple to say [Bush] is a liar. But that would also suggest there was a reality that he understood," explained Hersh. "I'm serious. It is funny in sort of a sick, black humor sort of way, but the real serious problem is, he believes what he's doing." In effect, Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and the other neocons are "idealists, you can call them utopians." As Hersh understands them, they really believe that the solution to global terrorism began with invading Baghdad and will end only with the transformation of the last unfriendly government in the Middle East into a democracy. "No amount of body bags is going to dissuade [Bush]," said Hersh, despite the fact that Hersh's sources say the war in Iraq is "not winnable. It's over." As for Kerry's war plans, Hersh said he wished he could tell him to stop talking as if the senator's plan for Iraq could somehow still eke out a victory there. "This is a disaster that's been going on. It's a civil war, the insurgency. There is no 'win' anymore in this war," he argued. "As somebody said, 'We're playing chess, they're playing Go.'" Later, Hersh shared something he had yet to write about. Sources were suggesting that the many acts of domestic terrorism in Iraq that U.S. officials have been attributing to suspected Al Qaeda operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are in fact a smokescreen set up by the insurgents. "They decided to wage war against their own population," he said. "It's a huge step, with enormous consequences.…The insurgency has simply deflected what they're doing onto this man. And we fell for it." 'We operate on guilt, [Muslims] operate on shame…The idea of photographing an Arab man naked and having him simulate homosexual activity, and having an American GI woman in the photographs, is the end of society in their eyes.' -Seymour Hersh What is worse, he said impatiently, was that because U.S. forces had "privatized" so many of Iraq's institutions, it had decimated the job market in the country."This is why Bush can talk about 100,000 people wanting to go work in the police or in the army. It's because there's nothing else for them to do. They're willing to stand in line to get bombed because they want to take care of their family," he said. Hersh has been accused many times of sympathizing with "the enemy," and told that his publicizing of incidents like the My Lai massacre and the Abu Ghraib torture only fan the flames of anti-American sentiment around the world. He related that he's been asked if he feels guilty about the beheadings of two Americans who were wearing uniforms like those worn at Abu Ghraib. "As if the Iraqis needed me to tell them what's going on in that prison!" he responded. He also repeated a question often posed to him: "Was it immoral to go in … [T]he idea that Saddam was a torturer and a killer, doesn't that lend a patina of morality to going after him?" The answer to that one, he said unsmilingly, "is of course, Saddam tortured and killed his people. And now we're doing it." In addition to adding more details to the woeful chronology of the Abu Ghraib scandal, in which the military stopped the abuse only after Hersh's story brought it crashing down onto front pages around the world — four months after it was first reported to the Department of Defense — Hersh speculated on why those dehumanizing techniques had been used. He was sure that they were not, as some have claimed, the "stress outlet" or other spontaneous recreational ideas of young soldiers from West Virginia. Instead, he said, they were the outgrowth of a massive manhunt for information, any information, about first Al Qaida, the Taliban, and then the Iraqi insurgency: My government has a secret unit that since December of 2001 has been disappearing people just like the Brazilians and the Argentineans did. Rumsfeld decided after 9/11 that he could not wait. The president signed a secret document…There's a team of people, they fly in unmarked planes, they fly in Gulfstreams, they have their own choppers, they don't carry American passports, and they just grab people. And maybe in the beginning I can understand there was some rationale. Right after 9/11 we were frightened, we didn't know what to do … The original idea behind the sexually humiliating photos taken at Abu Ghraib, Hersh said he had heard, was to use them as blackmail so that the newly released prisoners — many of whom were ordinary Iraqi thieves or even civilian bystanders rounded up in dragnets — would act as informants. "We operate on guilt, [Muslims] operate on shame," Hersh explained. "The idea of photographing an Arab man naked and having him simulate homosexual activity, and having an American GI woman in the photographs, is the end of society in their eyes." And the fact that Americans had perpetrated such acts — and refused to take responsibility for it — ended America's role as any kind of moral leader in the eyes of not just the Middle East, but the world, Hersh railed. He talked about an Israeli, a longtime veteran of the troubles between his country and the Palestinians, who had emailed him to say, in essence, "We've been killing them for 40 or 50 years, and they've been killing us for 40 or 50 years, but we know that somewhere down the line we're going to have to live with those SOBs…If we had treated our Arabs the way you treated them in Abu Ghraib, the sexual stuff, the photographs, we couldn't live with them. You guys do not begin to understand what you've done, where you have put yourself in the Arab world." "They just shot them one by one" There was more — rumors of atrocities around Iraq that to Hersh brought back memories of My Lai. In the evening's most emotional moment, Hersh talked about a call he had gotten from a first lieutenant in charge of a unit stationed halfway between Baghdad and the Syrian border. His group was bivouacking outside of town in an agricultural area, and had hired 30 or so Iraqis to guard a local granary. A few weeks passed. They got to know the men they hired, and to like them. Then orders came down from Baghdad that the village would be "cleared." Another platoon from the soldier's company came and executed the Iraqi granary guards. All of them. "He said they just shot them one by one. And his people, and he, and the villagers of course, went nuts," Hersh said quietly. "He was hysterical, totally hysterical. He went to the company captain, who said, 'No, you don't understand, that's a kill. We got 36 insurgents. Don't you read those stories when the Americans say we had a combat maneuver and 15 insurgents were killed?' "It's shades of Vietnam again, folks: body counts," Hersh continued. "You know what I told him? I said, 'Fella, you blamed the captain, he knows that you think he committed murder, your troops know that their fellow soldiers committed murder. Shut up. Complete your tour. Just shut up! You're going to get a bullet in the back.' And that's where we are in this war." The story seemed to leave Hersh sincerely, deeply saddened. While his critics may call him a "muckraker" and unpatriotic, on Friday night it was obvious that Hersh takes the crumbling of America's image, very, very personally. "My parents were immigrants," Hersh said. "They came here because America meant something…the Statue of Liberty and all that stuff, because America always was this bastion of morality and integrity and a place for a fresh start. And it's right in front of us, not hidden, that they've taken this away from us." |
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Population: 25,374,691 (July 2004 est.) Age structure: 0-14 years: 40.3% (male 5,198,966; female 5,039,173) 15-64 years: 56.7% (male 7,280,167; female 7,094,688) 65 years and over: 3% (male 357,651; female 404,046) (2004 est.) Median age: total: 19.2 years male: 19.1 years female: 19.3 years (2004 est.) Population growth rate: 2.74% (2004 est.) Birth rate: 33.09 births/1,000 population (2004 est.) Death rate: 5.66 deaths/1,000 population (2004 est.) Net migration rate: 0 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2004 est.) Sex ratio: at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female under 15 years: 1.03 male(s)/female 15-64 years: 1.03 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 0.89 male(s)/female total population: 1.02 male(s)/female (2004 est.) Infant mortality rate: total: 52.71 deaths/1,000 live births male: 58.58 deaths/1,000 live births female: 46.55 deaths/1,000 live births (2004 est.) Life expectancy at birth: total population: 68.26 years male: 67.09 years female: 69.48 years (2004 est.) Total fertility rate: 4.4 children born/woman (2004 est.) HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate: less than 0.1% (2001 est.) HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS: less than 1,000 HIV/AIDS - deaths: NA Nationality: noun: Iraqi(s) adjective: Iraqi Ethnic groups: Arab 75%-80%, Kurdish 15%-20%, Turkoman, Assyrian or other 5% Religions: Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3% Languages: Arabic, Kurdish (official in Kurdish regions), Assyrian, Armenian Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 40.4% male: 55.9% female: 24.4% (2003 est.) |
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Originally posted by AkMike rob_we, In the short history of our nation we have been in many wars. Some big ones and some small ones. I haven't agreed with some of them either. But win, lose or draw the US has always helped rebuild the countrys we have fought with. The US has always helped them set up their own governments and rebuild. We have never kept countrys that we have fought. I'm sure that the Iraqys aren't thrilled with the military there. But the mass graves weren't caused by the US.Sadam was at the helm then. Should he be punished? The new government there (not the US)has begun to bring charges against him IF the news I read is correct. My brother is in Iraq now and from the letters I have gotten from him, he says the people are much better off now than they ever have been. Running water and electricity is available over a huge area compared to anything Sadam had in his history. Isd this a bad thing? Is teaching the little children both male and female to read bad? Girls weren't allowed in school under Sadam. I believe that eventually Iraq will have living standards equal to any western country. I hope so. |
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Literacy rate in Iraq? 58% literacy rate is for the overall population. There are poor tribes in the south with lower literacy rates, but there are much higher rates in other areas. For rural and nomadic groups, education is not the highest priority. Among the elite groups, the literacy rate is up to 95%. Women in Islamic world? The Taliban has created a lot of stereotypes. This is not to imply there are no problems for women, but in many Islamic countries there are women in very high political positions and many women who are professionals, elected to parliament, etc. Rules oppressing women have more to do with culture than religion. For example, honor killing can be found in different religions and is tied more to the local culture than the religion. |
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Originally posted by rob_we btw. rape in iraq is now not punished any more... It was severly punished under Saddam!!! |
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Originally posted by ConnerVT Unless, of course, it was done by Saddam's sons...
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| Unless, of course, it was done by Saddam's sons... |
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Originally posted by Jill [B]Well, basically, this journalist (Seymour Hersh from the New Yorker-- He goes so far as to claim that they may soon raise the question of possibly pulling troops out--and Bush does not know this. He also claims that Bush's real agenda was never spelled out during the elections and, as a result, American voters made an uniformed decision when they went to the polls. |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille perfectly true; you explained it well saddam system was good for the minimum ( "learn to read or go to secret police") but of course the progressive ideas were not built into the traditions of the people; so it's true that women's condition and litteracy rate are in trouble in the new iraq BUT the problem is the building of a new society, with the willing of the majotity of the people |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille not only saddam's sons... of course btw, 82nd airbone(and only this unit) loosed its honor in Iraq |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille CIA world factbook has a lot of problems with reality, it's not new:-)) but "any western country" please no, don't! it's a different civilisation, really turkey , iraq, iran, KSA, are four diffrerent systems important to know and understand that[/i] |
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Originally posted by BradIL Well wrong is wrong, but when Odai is pulling women off the street and taking them to the pleasure palace for his gratification, using the Fedayeen/Army to procure them, on a frequent basis I would say it's far different than isolated acts of an unworthy soldier or two. |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille---english soldiers disagree harder and harder with the american methods i speak about methods to enforce law and order, no moral values in this point |
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Originally posted by lolomarseille: the 82nd has a serious command and discipline problem, it's strange for an elite division, and especially they used to steal all the iraqi's money, and rapes occured |
| France & much of Europe gains credibility if you will PLEASE stabilize the situation in Bosnia. Now don't do the usual French routine of proposing something, getting agreement, & not doing any follow-up work. Let's try to get Serb-related violence under control this time before it erupts into a major disaster. And whatever plan France proposes, STICK IT WITH IT THIS TIME! |
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Originally posted by BradIL Well if you are referring to the crates of billions of dollars that was discovered during the invasion of 2003, the French don't need to throw stones at glass houses. Let's be forthright & see who in France was taking bribes from Saddam from the UN Oil for Food program. Money that was supposed to be feeding hungry Iraqis. Command & discipline problem? I think not. I don't think a UNHCR worker understands the nature of the work of combat division that is thrown into very ugly situations. Incidentally, the rape cases are alleged, not proven. |
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Originally posted by BradIL There may be some disagreement, but I believe the situation is quite different than the English see in the Southern Iraq. In fact, most of you don't see that much of what occurs in the Sunni triangle is due to foreign fighters who are vigorous elements in the insurgency,. Very few reporters are accurately describing the situation. The US is acting properly and prudently to try and prevent the "Lebanonization" of Central Iraq. Now I would ask what French policy would be in this respect, but I believe I know. 1) As with the Ivory Coast, force a sitting government to share power with rebels hell-bent on destroying the sitting government & violently oppressing that government's supporters. 2) Nothing--- wait to see who gets in power--- don't worry if the new leaders massacre millions--- get the pumping oil--- start taking bribes again--- see if we can get them to pay back the money they owe French business & the government. Lolo--- I'm very skeptical of any criticism coming from anyone in France. UNHCR is doing what for the millions of black Muslims fighting to stay alive in Darfur province in Sudan? Waiting for americans to guard any food & medicine shipments to the people who need them. In fact didn't UNHCR officials pull out of Darfur recently? Lolo--- France & much of Europe gains credibility if you will PLEASE stabilize the situation in Bosnia. Now don't do the usual French routine of proposing something, getting agreement, & not doing any follow-up work. Let's try to get Serb-related violence under control this time before it erupts into a major disaster. And whatever plan France proposes, STICK IT WITH IT THIS TIME! |
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Originally posted by Vyesna Well...I don't really buy that. The American War of Independence ended way before British troops were tied up against the French in large-scale battles, so if there was such an urge to recapture the land they could have started well before the French Revolution. I think, and my British history professor who is one of the foremost in her field (Linda Colley) thought that it was more like an 18th century Vietnam for the British-- just not worth it in the end. However, I will grant your theory may apply in some degree to the defeat of the British in the War of 1812. I think you just messed up the dates and are covering-- na na na. BTW, I'm teasing, but if you find teasing boring (which is itself boring), I'll stop. |
| Originally posted by lolomarseille: the real independance of usa is after 1812/14 war, when new england merchants, under the english embargo, put their money into the building of a genuine industrial basis and really escaped from europe; |
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Originally posted by BradIL Lolo--- I simply cannot agree with this view of history. A mountain of facts suggests differently, and the US War of 1812 is given a level of importance it simply does not deserve. The financial problems the US faced from the revolution were largely solved at this point, Thomas Jefferson expanded the country from the purchase of land from France, there is & has been an agriculture surplus by 1812, and a vigorous trade with europe. The biggest problem for the US prior to this war is Jean Laffite & the pirates in the Carribean & the Gulf of Mexico. In fact, the companies that are financing development of the Louisiana Purchase are active & moving ahead, war or no war, and from what I read these folks could care less what the US problems with the UK are. Look the US is really getting its legs at this point. In a few years the great debate over the Bank of the United States emerges, the age of Jacksonian democracy, I mean this war is just so pitifully a non-event. If there's any period that shows the US really getting its feet under it--- its during the administration of Thomas Jefferson. So many important decisions are made then. I don't see where historians find all this... hubris... to justify the war. Its just a freaky thing of US history. The big event around this period is the national road. Which, if not complete, has big parts of it complete that is sending people west from Cumberland, MD to Vandalia, IL. Illinois is not even a state yet, but there are people streaming across it at this point. |
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Originally posted by lolomarseilleit's the thesis about 1812 war in french history books; real independance of USA the foreign look on national history is always funny i discovered that you americans did not had this point of view, it's very interestingL. |
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