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The Language Barrier: Differences in Intrepretations and Definitions
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Posted by: searcher

Hopefully this thread won't somehow get me in trouble or cause a problem!

Anyway, it seems to me (after having some conversations with people who are not native English speakers) many words that I use are intrepreted differently than I meant or have a completely different meaning.

For example the word greed or greedy, it has different meanings in English and Russian. This was not a problem but just an example of one different intrepretation.

One one that I did have a problem with was the word freedom (and also free).

I once asked the question:

"What is being free and freedom? What is your DEFINITION!

I want to know your definition, not whether a particular country is free or not free because that depends ENTIRELY upon your DEFINITION of what free is."

An answer I received from an native English speaker was:

Quote:

The Russians have two notions: the freedom and the will
there isn't any freedom in Russia, but only Free will

I asked the question because I was told by a Russian:

Quote:

Translated by software:

"Russia always was the free country both in sex and in all. When I speak my friends about it they simply laugh at Americans. That they I think that in Russia there is what that restrictions! It is a policy powders to you brains about Russia! Actually, and Europeans know it, that Russia the most free country in the world. Here it is possible to do and speak all that you think."

That was a bit diffucult to understand but for Americans freedom and being free means with minimal restrictions and with little or no interference from the government, etc...

Perhaps someone can explain!!!!!

.....and perhaps I can keep myself from getting in trouble!

Posted by: Jill

My personal opinion:

Freedom ironically carries with it certain non-freedoms. For example, Americans may be free to do many things (i.e. the stuff in the constitution), but that freedom is based on laws restricting other "freedoms" such as the freedom to kill, rob, rape, etc. The philosophy being that some freedoms must be restricted in order to fully enjoy other freedoms. I am free to walk down the street, but I can not enjoy that freedom if someone else is free to kill me while I do so. So in America there is freedom tempered (i.e. limited) by law.

In Russia (again, just my opinion), laws aren't consistently respected or enforced. For this reason, in a sense, there is more freedom. Technically, there is a law in Russia against public drunkeness. Anyone who's been to Russia, however, will know that the only time this law is enforced is when the police are looking for bribes. So, in all other cases, Russians are "free" to drink on the streets as much as they want. Americans are not free to do this. So here is an example where Russia is "more free" than America. But the question is, is such freedom really desireable? Again, this is just one example that came to mind. I'm sure you can think of others.

Posted by: Jill

Or maybe freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose?

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
Or maybe freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose?

LOL,

Maybe so!

Looking at it from that perspective I guess they could be more "free".

Now they are less restricted than in the past but it is still more complicated and slower to get anything done if it requires government paperwork.

Also, they could be more free in that "If there isn't a law against it, it must be legal".

Posted by: wavetossed

How are Russians more free?

They can freely walk the streets and ride buses while drinking a can of beer or a liter bottle of beer.

When there is roadwork or sidewalk repair going on, pedestrians are free to walk anywhere as long as they don't disrupt what the workmen are currently doing. No fences or barriers.

Workmen on a construction site can dress as they please. I saw no hard hats, one guy in bare feet, several wearing sandals.

I saw a guy plastering a wall standing on a scaffold constructed of a plank laid on two upright boards which were held rigidly in place by 4 of his coworkers.

Cars can park as they please wherever they don't disrup traffic. Just not too far up on the sidewalk and don't park at an angle across two spots unless you drive an expensive black foreign car.

Cross the streets wherever you want. In Ekaterinbirg there are few crosswalks or traffic lights. Those are only for the real danger spots. Everywhere else you just walk out when there is a gap and everybody slows to let you to the middle of the road where you stand until there is a gap in the other direction.

The only signs saying anything is forbidden are handlettered signs saying "no parking" which people do obey because they know that if there is a sign, there is a reason and someone who cares about that reason.

Don't like the price in a shop/kiosk. Just negotiate. If the shopkeeper doesn't like you or is having a bad day, they don't bother being nice and polite to you, after all nobody says they have to sell you anything if they don't want to.

It can be boring looking after a shop all day long. Why not have a friend join you so you can chat between customers. Or a boyfriend to kiss.

Need a ride, just wave down a passing car and ask how much. Who needs licenced cabs?

Or maybe you are a bus driver. What do you do when you see an old lady running to the bus after you have pulled away from the stop? Why, you reverse back to the stop and pick her up, that's what. No stupid rules about keeping a schedule.

Or maybe you drive an intercity bus? As you go through the forest there are lots of berrypickers selling their wares. Why not stop a couple of times, buy a couple of shopping bags full, then ring up your friend on the mobile to meet him in the city. He can sell the berries in the city at a higher price and share the profit with you.

Or you have 5 onions and an extra cucumber in your garden? Why not just sit outside the bus station and sell them?

The Communist Party central planning is gone but these people still believe that this is THEIR country, i.e. they own this country. Very unlike most Americans who feel alienated from and manipulated by the government and big business.

I find England to be much more free than the USA or Canada and I find Russia to be much more free than England.

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

Free fro Europeans are connected to the personal situations. Like in a marriage, you are NOT free.

- Not free to move to anotehr anotehr city
- Not free to go date other
- If children, not free to go party, at least without preperation

---

The word greedy means that money the most important for you.

- Like you cancel a date to make more money
- use friends and family to make money

I hope you get the picture

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by wavetossed

I find England to be much more free than the USA or Canada and I find Russia to be much more free than England.

I understand but I can see some problems with that...

True, in that respect they are more free but I can see some ways that it could cause problems or be more harmful.

For example, the guy on the scaffolding. If he falls then who is responsible?

In the U.S. attorneys may argue that his employer is responsible because they did not provide him "adequate equipment" to do his job thus promoting an unsafe work enviroment.

Then they would sue his employer and IF his employer is insured then he will still have to pay in the form of higher rates or he may be dropped.

If the worker is held responsible then he suffers because he may be unable to work, thus he will not have any money.

I'm not saying either scenario is right but America is a litigous society, lawyers run the country and given time if Russians are prosperous in the future there may very well be money hungry lawyers looking for lawsuits.

In some ways I agree with letting people do as they want. The government is not a nanny (babysitter) and people know what is best for them.

Governments are not efficient and never will be , so why should they operate schools, health care institutions, etc.

The problem that I do see is that with all of the litigation comes more laws/restrictions but also when people behave carelessly (no hardhat, no shoes, etc) they will end up costing their families, employers, etc more money. In many cases here the state has had to pay for peoples foolishness.

One example, an idiot on a motorcycle doesn't stop for a stop sign. He gets hit by another vehicle and happens to crash into the stop sign. He sues the state for placing it in a unsafe location and is awarded a few million dollars because he is permanently crippled.

And who was at fault? HE WAS!

My point is that I think Russians are free in their daily lives. I think that as Russia prospers (and it will) that lawyers, etc will become more common and there will be more legislation, etc.

The only thing that I think is a problem in Russia is all of the paperwork involved when interacting with the government.

Posted by: searcher

Now, I also want to consider what personal freedoms are permitted in Russia.

Here is my idea of rights and freedom:

The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights

The problem is that even our own government does not abide by our own constitution and bill of rights.

Posted by: gino

your freedom ends where another's begins. think about it

gino

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by gino
your freedom ends where another's begins. think about it

gino

Oh, I agree and it has to be. Its as Jill pointed out, one could not decide they have the right to kill another because that other person ALSO has a right to live.

But what I want to know is why are there such differences in the concept of freedom???

I think basically we all agree on some common points but also there seems to be some big differences in perception regarding other matters.

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by searcher

Now they are less restricted than in the past but it is still more complicated and slower to get anything done if it requires government paperwork.

You ARE joking, right?

Or is it that you haven't actually needed to get anything done that requires any American federal or state gov't paperwork?

Americans have been brainwashed into thinking they are free. We are probably the least free nation of all the civilized world. If you actually stop and think about all the ways the federal, state, and local gov't inhibits our personal and collective freedoms on a daily basis you will be astounded.

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL
You ARE joking, right? Or is it that you haven't actually needed to get anything done that requires any American federal or state gov't paperwork?

Americans have been brainwashed into thinking they are free. We are probably the least free nation of all the civilized world. If you actually stop and think about all the ways the federal, state, and local gov't inhibits our personal and collective freedoms on a daily basis you will be astounded.

To a certain extent I agree. We do have a lot of paperwork, etc but I have also heard of the delays and paperwork required to open businesses in the FSU. I know that each former Republic is different but it seem that it is a long and complicated process.

Many times i've had to fill out government forms and usually they are processed in a timely manner. What is annoying is the redundancy of the forms and significance of some of the information requested on the forms.

I'm not saying its perfect nor am I saying that it isn't better somewhere else (E.g. - England, etc).

The trend seems to be that things are getting more complicated here and less complicated in other countries but still from what I understand in many FSU countries you have to jump hurdles to get things done.

For example look at all of the stamps and papers Jutman needed.

Posted by: FlashingEyes

What you are touching on is a basic conflict between freedom for an individual and freedom for a society that philosophers have been writing about for hundreds of years now. Read Hobbes, Locke, etc.

If you want the "cliff notes" version, here 'tis but it won't replace doing the work yourself:

Where individual freedom is maximized is in a state of nature, where life is nasty, brutish, and short. Here, some people can have excess freedom but at the cost of a correspondingly greater loss to another or others. For instance, one person might have the improved freedom to act on a small whim ("I didn't like the way he looked at me so I killed him") but at the cost of a corresponding greater loss of freedom for another (death). The free society recognizes that ALL people have certain fundamental rights, such as life, liberty, and property, and that governments are formed by consent of the governed to secure these fundamental rights to the extent that freedom for all people is maximized and that the unfair trade-offs of freedom that occur in a state of nature do not take place in the free society.

America, by being the most free society among civilized countries is correctly not the civilized country with the most individual freedom, since these terms are mutually exclusive.

The real question is not what "freedom" means here and there but are you talking about "freedom-individual" or "freedom-society"?

Posted by: wavetossed

The real question is:

What is the right balance between freedom of individuals and freedom of society? Which country is closest to the ideal?

I believe that Russia is closer. It's society today is built on a foundation of communal rule. The failure of communism was the result of a lack of checks and balances which allowed extremists to gain too much power. However, communism in the Soviet Union did a lot of things better than capitalism in the USA. In Europe, the socialists tended to take the best of both worlds but after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia gained many of the benefits of capitalism as well. So today in Russia you have a mixture of capitalism and communalism. There have been many mistakes made in dismantling the centralised state, *BUT* although the state was dismantled, the attitudes and actions of individuals do not change so fast. Many of the things I mentioned in my post about freedom in Russia are the direct result of people who are willing to live and let live.

They see no harm in someone drinking beer in the street as long as they are reasonably quiet and don't interfere with other people's enjoyment of the street. This is rather different from the UK where people drink in licenced pubs and then spill out on the streets to yell and scream and fight and generally frighten everyone else who is on the streets in the evening. So the Russian drinker and Russian society have come to a tacit agreement that strikes a reasonable balance of freedom for all.

I think this is partly due to the communist basis of most people's education, either in school or at home, and the fact that Russians take education more seriously and thus they are far better educated in the humanities than westerners. For an example of this dedication to education, consider the fact that on the first day of school in every Russian town, including Beslan, the families of the students attend celebrations. In my girlfriend's town, the Day of Knowledge celebrations are attended by the mayor and the town councillors as well. It's a major event in the town calendar.

And yes, I consider that maybe I missed something in my education and I'm trying to make up for it now by reading more literature and more classic works in the various subjects that we call "the humanities". Not to mention visiting museums and art galleries and thinking about the things I am seeing and the people who made them and the people who chose them for display.