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Pages: 1

Going to be the last letter I hope.

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: moosehead

This girl/guy maybe...wants me to send money. I told her I didn't send money to people I didn't know and I questioned her intentions in a very,very short letter. This is her response:


Hello my dear, sweet , and lovely Robert !
I was very moved by your last letter.
I had a wonderful dream of us together.
We were walking in the gentle waves of the water at the beach.
Walking hand in hand kicking sprays of water on each other.
We walked for a long way and then you lay to my down on a soft blanket away from
the waves.
I began to kiss you very gently on your lips, then I kissed every exposed part
of your lovely
body.
Then we slowly undressed each other and began to explore each others bodies with
our hands and
mouths.
The moon was shining brightly and you soft skin glowed from the moistness of my
kisses.
Our skin was on fire for each other and we made passionate love for hours.
We lay on the blanket and looked at the stars as we held each other in a warm
embrace.
We saw a shooting star and made a wish together.
Our wish must have come true because we once again gave in to our feelings for
each other and began to make slow and wonderful love to each other again .
When we finally were so tired from all of the wonderful love we had made we
noticed the sun was beginning to rise above the water.
We watched the sun rise from the darkness until it beamed all of its wonderous
light upon our still unclothed bodies.
I slowly put your clothes back on you and then dressed myself , you then picked
to my up and
carried to our room.
We both fell to the bed from exhaustion.I hope you enjoyed my dream as much as i
did.
When I woke from sleep I wanted so badly to hold you in my arms for real and
make
love to you as i had in my dream.
As for money , I said you before that I have not money on my trip to
you but I thought that you will help me , I thought that your feelings
to me as real as my to you , but I think I was wrong, am not I ?

Your Olya


She/he writes pretty well. How could she be moved by my last letter? I was questioning her validity. Im tired of toying with this troll.


Posted by: RollingT

When you lose a battle you introduce some heavy sex scene for financial gain. This person could write a forum for Penthouse. This one is a live one, keep it going for pure entertainment value. It is a learning experience no doubt. Keep looking, you'll find a honest partner eventually. Good luck.


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Moose , she seems to have read alot of Dostoyevsky and Chekov because she can sure write when the urge takes her. But its too good to be true .

I would stop writing to her - she sounds crazy. Drop her - trust me Moose - she just wants to get some of your money

Pete


Posted by: gino

hey pete i agree, but i think moose likes the drama. gino


Posted by: Andy72

Funny to read! Surely she/he does not worry about the image and reputation of russian women given to you with such words

Ciao!


Posted by: RollingT

I wish moose would continue this drama and continue posting her desire to estract money, but this is going to have to stop. But she will just move on the the next target. True love is out there because I feel I have found mine!!!!


Posted by: moosehead

I have more...


Posted by: moosehead

Dig this one...its the one before.



Hello my love Robert!
I'm blessed to have you in my life!
Your make me crazy and I'm dreaming only about you, my dear!
I'm so happy to know you, you even cannot imagine!
You know last night I felt that you are next to me lying on my bed.
I felt your warm body, your gentle hands and your soft breath...
I felt you everywhere around me.
It was a very sweet feeling I cannot even describe it...
I had a desire to eat whole of you, to embrace whole of you...
I did not want to let you leave me... I just wanted you to be everytime next to
me.
I want to say you THANK YOU for your existence.
For everything you did for me to light the dreams and sweet emotions go on.
Look what a beautiful words I have for you: There's a sea between us, love,
and I wish that it weren't true, for every day when I awake, I yearn to be with
you.
There are many miles between us, love, though you're always here in my heart,
and every night, beneath the silver starlight, I pray for the day we'll never
part.
YOU ARE WRONG ROBERT , I WENT TO THE TRAVEL AGENCY YESTERDAY AND THEY
SAID THAT I CAN COME TO YOU BY THE TOURIST VISA. BUT I MUST TO RETURN
HOME FIRST TIME BECAUSE I WILL BE ABLE TO STAY WITH YOU ONLY FOR 90
DAYS , I NEED ALSO AN INVITATION FROM YOU. THEN IF WE BOTH WILL HAVE
THE SAME FEELINGS TO EACH OTHER I WILL COME TO YOU FOREVER BUT ON BY
OTHER VISA K1 VISA.
I love you and will love all my life!
For ever yours Olya.


Posted by: Jimtazem

sounds familiar...

She/he can smell the fear.

I think its time to tell her you just got that terminal disease you have always wanted...can't... type... loosing consciousness...need money for operation fast... no time to waste... if you really love me send me money now... gasp!... choke...please....you said we would be together... GASP!

Oh yeah man, ask for some nude pics before she goes away... that always goes over real nicely.

Sorry but...Access denied

Jimtazem


Posted by: moosehead

That would be nice to see but, why look when you can't have.


Posted by: rob_we

mhmm I didn´t get the point here? Maybe there has something happened before I don´t know but what is the problem exactly with these letters?
i think they are nice, I can´t see anything that prooves a scam here? I cant see anything pornographic either? Am i missing something? Help me!???



Posted by: Pin Boy

rob,

i'd say what's wrong is that you cannot possibly have romantic feelings for someone you have never met in person...when they come on too fast in a letter is a big red flag

pin boy


Posted by: rob_we

pin boy
maybe yes maybe no. I don´t know how old that girl is? Maybe shes quite young? Girls tend to fall in love with film or rockstars without knowing them all over the planet. They build up some "castles in the air" because they think about it all the time.
Being a foreigner could emphasize this view towards moose maybe (of course dependant on where she is from in russia)
If she is a little naive and unexperienced and enthusiastic, and maybe mooses letters were nice, i can see a possibility. I met some girls amoung our friends, who are indeed romantic dreamers. Don´t forget this part of the russian soul! Again its just a possibility and probably you are right about her. I don´t know. But to my opinion RG are not always as cool, calculating and cynical as expected. And a "littile" erotic converstation is for younger R/U girls much more common and an initial part of showing their affection as for WG. ...but never mind ...just a thought...


Posted by: RomanticTX

c'mon Rob!
You are the Scammers defender!
I have seen you defend even the most obvious cases of scamming!

What part of the "visa to the US is impossible" you don't understand?
Please don't be ridiculous!!!

Moose

For one thing, I need a cold shower after that letter.

Even if she were legit, would you like to marry a girl who want to screw (you'll be screwed but won't be laid) you just for your letter and pictures! What would prevent her to cheat on you?

Not me!

If you are that charming, you'll find a girl whold never mention money before you marry!


Posted by: rob_we

romanticTX
yes you are right. I definitely am. And I know there are scammers out there. And I know its possibly one. But I miss the hard proof quite often. As i do here. I learned by heart not to condemn anyone until its definitely proofed that he/she is guilty....
Yes you are right too that its a sign that she said she could get a visa and thats quite unlikely but not impossible. There are many ways in russia to achieve things. And you know I saw quite a few girls smashed because of she actually believed in what she wrote.
So I made myself to be the girls attorney here ...
Just to show the possibility
And kick guys asses like this "Romantic Heart" Scott A. Johnson
This job was also unoccupied
Never mind romanticTX. I just tell my opinion for bias reasons
Wont flame on anyone though ...

BTW. My beauty has a 2 years Visa for US and UK, 5 years residentship in EU, visas for czech and poland....
Quite unlikely for a not married russian girl, but still possible


Posted by: Clarita

Basically, I think this exct girl try to scam, BUT you have a choice -

- stop to write
- to put yourself on same level with her and do what men from here recommend (write about diseas, ask her for money, ask for nude photos etc.)

By the way, many girls who correspond with foreign men use to read antiscam sites for take ideas for romantic letters from there.


Posted by: Lola

Quote:
Originally posted by Pin Boy
i'd say what's wrong is that you cannot possibly have romantic feelings for someone you have never met in person...when they come on too fast in a letter is a big red flag
pin boy


Of course you, pin boy, cannot have any romantic feelings and seems to me even after you met girl in reality
as for myself, I can, and I have fell in love before I met HIM in reality and it was too fast in a letter, and when I met him, it was evem more wonderful than I expected
so of course he could post me onto some blacklist if he listened all this delirium you tell sometimes, but he didn't and that is what atrracted me even more
you are too untrustfull guys so it is senseless to start conntact with you


Posted by: moosehead

I haven't been in here for a while. I stopped talking to her in early september. ROB-WE...Me and another fella on this forum have been comparing letters from 2 different girls. The letters are the same. She is bubububusted. I have been dating local girls here lately. Still looking for the light of my life though.


Posted by: RomanticTX

Moose,

Forget it!!!

For Rob there are NO scam girls. All are poor russian girls that are being misinterpreted by a bunch of Western guys!

SO just to be aligned with Rob's advice:
Send her your money, and don't whine
She will get a visa and visit you in the USA, and don't doubt her
Send her more money! If you don't hear froom her, then count your loses, move to the next girl and then repeat the steps mentioned above!
Those are Rob's Steps for success!!


Posted by: parasionok

SO just to be aligned with Rob's advice:
Send her your money, and don't whine
She will get a visa and visit you in the USA, and don't doubt her
Send her more money! If you don't hear froom her, then count your loses, move to the next girl and then repeat the steps mentioned above!
Those are Rob's Steps for success!!

Romantic,

where did Rob say exectly what you posted here? Can you show me where exactly he gives around these advices? I remember I was called all sorts of names when I said what impression I had about Rob Ohio's post. Now, you are definitely twisting everything Rob was trying to say here. Instead of screaming how vicious and bad russian people are, how poor we are, how stupid we are, you should read more about Russia, you should meet more Russian people, you should be more tolerant and respectful towards different countries and cultures. Rob is trying to show you a broader picture of Russia because he knows more about Russia and Russian people. He travels to Russia several times a year. But of course, how dares he tell anyone that what you sometimes see as scamming, could be not.


Posted by: rob_we

moose
thats of course a big argument. ...And all I wanted to know. More proof. Seemd to be enough now to be quite sure...
**** happens...


Posted by: RomanticTX

Para,
read Rob posts all over this website and you will find those words of advice!

I never screamed, or wrote that Russians were vicious, stupid, bad and poor! (or please show me were). I do not believe that !

But some people here are really making it hard to keep my belief!


Posted by: rob_we

Romantic

But some people here are really making it hard to keep my belief!

Yet anotheone. ...and on ...and on ..and on ..and on

because of WHAT?

because she has a different opinion? Or because she told you you citated wrong. Or implicated something?

I think you should be quite proud of you showing the "russian b***" what a real man is.

And how she dares to contradict you!

One insult after the other. Nicely, subconsious.

I guess you definitely think you are superior.

Probably way how you usually treat your girlfriends.

Hence due to the fact nobody else here seems to have a problem with this...

I state I do. You seem to have a personal problem with a woman who has a different opinion.

This blabla with no facts just accusitions that you state is outstanding!

Shall I remind you.

Every RW who says hes able to get a visum is after the money!

Russia is a third world country

and on and on

you never screamed?

so what was this citate about then?


Posted by: RomanticTX

Just to remind you, Para said, we are not a third world country, I wrote you are a third world country and in parenthesis I wrote (underdebeloved country). First second and third world country are not longer used. but sometimes we still use third world country to denote an underdeveloped country.
Russia is an underdeveloped country!
So I should not use Para's Third world country reference. I agree on that.

I still stick on my opinion that most girls who claim to be able to get a visa to visit you, will try to scam you.
THAT is my opinion, wheather you like it or not. It is a RED Flag!
That opinion is formed after personal experiences and other references from other girls claiming such!

I wouldn't even reference the bunch of reference of being superior!
WHo is talking? who claims to be the superior race?
All I can say is that if the German people would have had their way, I wouldn't be here, and probably you would he a happier man!


Posted by: rob_we

Romantic

WHo is talking? who claims to be the superior race?
All I can say is that if the German people would have had their way, I wouldn't be here, and probably you would he a happier man!

Do you have any idea what it means to insult people being NAZIS? Do you have any idea what this means Cowboy?
Being accused to support mass murder?
Do you have any rest of behaviour left?

Romantic do you know that i could sue you for things like this?

Pal be careful!


Posted by: RomanticTX

Well,
Now I am scared!

Who is here mentioning about feeling superior?

Did I said Nazi or anything like that?
I think I didn't!

You called me cowboy! However, I don't own a single cow! I am a city boy!
Maybe I will sue you!

But by any means, you scare me sooo much that I can't stand it!


Posted by: rob_we

Romantic
This IS my last warning! If I read another comment like this you will be surprised. And you better be scared now!

THIS IS MY LAST WARNING. You did publicly insult me here!

This is written and documented!

If you think you can go on like this on an international site better check your legal situation NOW!

And believe me IM NOT JOKING! THIS IS SERIOUS NOW!


Posted by: parasionok

Romantic,

your comment

All I can say is that if the German people would have had their way, I wouldn't be here, and probably you would he a happier man!

this is a rasist comment... Any German person would be offended by it. Romantic, you are accusing people here without any valid ground. Please consider that other nations have their national pride and we all have the right to have our own opinion. I think living in the freest country in the world should teach you tolerance. You have so many nations living together in the US. You have the unique experience of being in the centrer of international compot. Please do not ever do it again. Do not post messages here saying that the Germans want world domination. Or are you implying that all Germans are Nazies? I hope you are not. Maybe I again misread your post because my English is bad. I just hope I misunderstood you. It is the worst comment that you could ever do here in Germany.

Please lets be tolerant and accept that we live in the world with lots of cultures, religions and every country has its own good things and bad things.

Jim Fl..... I address this to you... You were quite harsh and clear that we all should be politically correct and no black person should be addressed with N word here. Please consider that any German person should not be in any way addressed in a manner that he wanted a world domination and he was superior. It is the major insult here in Germany... And German people would be very ofended by any implications that they might have had better life if Nazi regime had succeeded. I live in Germany and I am quite sure what I am talking about.


Posted by: ConnerVT

Rob, try to act like the 40 year old man you profess to be in your profile.

Who are you going to contact about being insulted on the Internet? The U.N.? The Internet police?

You've made over 140 posts in only a few weeks, and after reviewing many of them, most of them are confrontational in nature. This is a forum that was conceived to help people, not argue with them

I'll give some advice about Russian women. They judge people on what they do, not what they say. You act as you are a troll. I'll learn from my Russian friends and family, and judge you to be one also.

Feel free to tell the Internet police I said so.


Posted by: rob_we

conner
who are you adressing if a black guy is adressed as a ****** publicly on the internet?
The UN? The internet police?

You might be not aware of it but not knowing what you talking about might not help you to bear the consequences of it!

I just wonder that you seem to have no problem with anyone insulting anybody because of a different opinion!

Romantic accused a whole country to be NAZI. Directly!

Thank you for encouraging people doing racist insulting posts on this site.

I am curiously looking forward what comes next.

But be aware of the fact again. IM NOT JOKING!

P.S. yes in a discussion forum i think its good to have confrontations. Thats what i know about discussions. You are insulting russian women here in many ways. I oppose to that.
If you have a problem with this dont call it discussion.
its claimed to be international. How many international members do you have? If you can not cope with arguments, and have to end up in racist comments what is it about?
Can´t you cope with different opinions at all? Do you really want them? Actually thats one of the ideas of an internatinal forum.
To be international. You have to cope with it until im banned.
Bad luck. And of course how can i dare to post 140 posts in a few weeks. Makes me quite suspicious right?


Posted by: RomanticTX

Buhuhuhu I'm crying now!


Posted by: parasionok

Romantic,

dont cry. I just wish more Russian women read your posts to know who they are dealing with....Just reading your posts alone.... I do not cry. I have my sweathart to go and lean on. Again, we should respect each other and do not just throw sarcastic comments here.....

If you are not willing to read any other opinion here, then make it I AM AN AMERICAN WHO IS DATING A RUSSIA WOMAN forum. And you should not get any outsiders getting in.... You are not able to listen and you assume everything written here by this Russian (what you called me again) girl and that German (what you assumed him to be) man is b((lsh(t.

I again ask you to be tolerant to other peoples opinions and do not accuse people of being stupid just because they love their native country.
s
Maybe i am not very clear in my posts. Forgive me, English is not my native language and I might lack words and I might not express myself very well. Speak to me in Russian, and maybe then we will have more understanding. I just cannot see how you assume that Russian women are bad because you established cirtain red flags. I understand there are scammers out there. Not only in Russia but in the US, France, Belgium; Germany. But we should not be very categorical and we should not derive universal truths from our bad experiences. I belive in trusting people and I believe in presumption of innocence. We should be more tolerant towards each other....

I am not encouraging scammers nor do I encourage anybody to send money to dishornest people. I am just asking to give some credit to people and do not accuse them of all possible sins just because they happen to be born in a certian country.

Well, now,
if little by little you stop loving me
I shall stop loving you little by little.

If suddenly
you forget me
do not look for me,
for I shall already have forgotten you

Romantic, do you recognise this words? Pablo Neruda? I have learned alot from him. And I am sure you have learned alot from him as well..........


Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
(all of the trolling post by rob_we deleted)


You are the one warning people of the consequences of insulting someone on the Internet. I am just unsure what governing body has power to enforce this.

Of course, as you post as an anonymous user, no insult could by directed at any actual person, so I think most libel charges would be thrown out of any court.

Confrontations and discussions are two different things. You are very heavy on the former, and have offered very little of the later.

Of course, the easiest thing to do is delete this site's bookmark from your Favorites, and not read any more. But I'm sure that's not what you will do.

But it sure is tempting for me to do.


Posted by: rob_we

conner
Is all you guys can do is insults? Where is the insult to you on my last post? Can you tell me? "Snip all trolling post deleted" is not really an argument? Is it? Again tell me where on this forum I ever insulted anyone personally being a ******, a fashist, a hooker or what ever. Harsh arguments ok! Thats how you discuss things if you are seroius. At least if you go for a real controverse discussion! What is your point? What derailment can you accuse me of? State. What is this? Having not the common opinion. Is it a crime? What do you expect from me? Watching doing nothing as anybody else? Ever thought of that maybe one of the 35000 advices to guys asking if its possible to get a visa as a russian girl might lead to a distruction of a possible relationship? Has ANYONE even tried to help in the romantic heart thread? What are you claiming to be? Liberal? Fair? Internatinal? Just tell me? Help me to understand what is so wrong? Or why are you here? You think you help people. Good. So do I. We have a different opinion lets discuss it! or what else is it what you want?

P.S. Actually its not my mayor concern what is tempting for you. Has it ever been a concern for you want is tempting for russian girls?


Posted by: parasionok

Conner,

I think it is very unfair to say all this. We have a healthy discussions on this forum. I do not see how opposite opinions can cause such a big problem for you to start telling people they are no longer welcome here. We were not very polite to each other sometimes but it doesnt mean anyone who has different opinion from yours should be banned from this forum.


If this forum is just for americans, you should state it. If you are not welcoming any other views, you should state it and I am sure Rob or myself will respect that. But if you claim you have an international forum, then we should listen to each other. I think Rob has lots of posts that can teach us about different perspective of what is considered probably a universal truth in the US or among certain group of people. I listen to all of you guys. I read this forum on a daily basis since my registration date and I think we can all learn from each other.

I am also reading alot from guardian talk forums. People there have even more or much more controverse opinions than on here. Rob has valuable experience being with a Russian woman and he seems very intelligent and consistent in his arguments. Let him express his opinion. Arguments are not that bad. As Socrate said, we can derive certain truth from it. Let people who are not US citizens express their points of view. Kashyar meant this site to be international, not american with some russian touch.


Why dont we all read Kashyar's ideas on how to conduct ourselves... MAybe then we will be able at least to be a little bit more respectful to what people from outside of the US have to say.... I emplore you guys... please see how such a progressive and developed country (no sarcasm, I do believe the US is very well developed and progressive) that has almost every people on this planet coexist together to be not tolerant towards different views and opinions provided on this board.


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

What is thread all about ?

rattle


Posted by: Jill

Guys, guys, guys (and gal ). I know these are very emotional topics, but let's let cool heads prevail here. The tone of this thread has become downright childish

Please remember that everyone's opinion is valuable, even if you don't happen to agree with it.

And if someone does not agree with you, that's no reason to lower yourself to insults and name-calling.

Khashyar has made a great effort to make this forum inclusive. So let's keep the discussion diginified out of respect for the forum's original intentions.




Posted by: moosehead

WOW has this thread taken an interesting turn. I don't have a problem with Russian, German, Arab,Mexican whatever women. They are all the same. Since this is a Russian forum...we talk about some of the problems with very few Russian women. If this was the German meeting place or the American meeting place, we would be talking about German and American scammers. IMO, Russia is NOT underdeveloped. Just in a crunch right now. The U.S was in a crunch in the 1930's and can very well be in a crunch in the near future. For you that don't speak english well..."crunch" means hard times or having some bad luck. Everyone needs a big hug and kiss right now...LOL. Just chill out folks...cut out the name calling, enjoy and learn.


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by ConnerVT


You've made over 140 posts in only a few weeks, and after reviewing many of them, most of them are confrontational in nature. This is a forum that was conceived to help people, not argue with them


You know, Conner, you have a point there. Everything from this guy is negative. Damn near everything. He doesn't just post a different opinion, he just insults people and trolls.

Look, I hurt my back years ago and James let's me stay here and takes care of me so I'm on the computer a lot and I see this all the time. Rob_we just likes to pick fights. It's different from other threads where there's disagreement but good will...such as my posts about prostitutes for example.

LLOYD


Posted by: Lola

Quote:
Originally posted by James Riske
You know, Conner, you have a point there. Everything from this guy is negative. Damn near everything. He doesn't just post a different opinion, he just insults people and trolls.

Look, I hurt my back years ago and James let's me stay here and takes care of me so I'm on the computer a lot and I see this all the time. Rob_we just likes to pick fights. It's different from other threads where there's disagreement but good will...such as my posts about prostitutes for example.

LLOYD


Not all I agree with Rob_web almost always...
Didn't you noticed most of Russian women here appreciate what Rob writes? or maybe your point is there are two opinion: one is yours and another is wrong?Stop to attact Rob, better see at yourself


Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:
Originally posted by Lola
Not all I agree with Rob_web almost always...
Didn't you noticed most of Russian women here appreciate what Rob writes? or maybe your point is there are two opinion: one is yours and another is wrong?Stop to attact Rob, better see at yourself

Lola, I guess my opinion and thoughts are usually wrong too?


Posted by: parasionok

Lloyd,

about negative posts... You don't think much of women and you post it over and over again. It is your opinion and you express it. Fine, fair enough. But not only you disagree with Rob, you also accuse him of insulting people. He is not insulting people... but you insult him

Conner, Lola is not saying that yours or Lloyd's opinions are wrong... She said that we all have to respect each others opinions, and opinion of everybody is subjective. Nothing else.

Conner, Lloyd. Please stop picking up on Rob. Just move on and be civil. Where are your manners?


Posted by: rob_we

To whom it may concern

You know, Conner, you have a point there. Everything from this guy is negative. Damn near everything. He doesn't just post a different opinion, he just insults people and trolls

Conner VT said:
"Confrontations and discussions are two different things"

Im just amazed what makes you guys so mad that you give me names and agree its justified?

Conner VT
This is a forum that was conceived to help people, not argue with them

In this thread we have an advice "Bug the girls you want to be with!" Its an advice! Ok. It is clearly illegal. Contradicting us american laws, international laws and human rights!

Nobody contradicted. Ok probably some of you think that is the way even if its against the law! I personally dont think so. So I try to argue. From my point of view. I almost allways wrote that.
Conner you did not contradict too. Are you absolutely sure that an advice to break the law to achieve your personal goals is the only true help?

I simply can not believe that you would do this with an american woman! Again my opinion. Hate me for that too!

Did I say that someone should leave because he gives even crimial advice!´I don´t think so! Ok its only the internet police you can call (Conner) and maybe some think its funny and nobody can harm you anyway so what, but you claim here to help people don´t you?

I have some different opinions. I argue. I do not give you names. I am sometimes sarcastic. Maybe too much. But Im not the only one! You consider this to be so wrong that you now try to form some kind of alliance? If you have crutial points why don´t you then go the correct way? The legal way? Go to the admin and let him block me!
Instead of this subtle way of "lynch him"???

Kashyar already made his point about this. Some do not agree. So some go a different way now. Are you sure its how you want to be seen by anybody else? And treated for your opinion on an european board maybe?

Are you serious with this "we want to help people?" There are some advice here like the one I was referring to in this post already that might be worth to be discussed in a serious way!

Are some people here really so convinced that his or the common opinion MUST be the right one, and that any other opinion is damaging and must be removed?

One of the most valuable things in the free world is the freedom of speech!

So i regard it to be ok to oppose, its a free board. I know I am considered to be "the enemy of the state" here already.

As you see I do not run away from topics if its getting tough. I don´t think I was allways right but I think noone is!
I try to state my point as good as possible, and yes maybe it was misunderstandable because I am not a native englishspeaker. Anybody can adress me in german if he likes to do so. Never had a problem on UK boards about this topic so far by the way! I write on different international boards. There are differences in the dominating opinions.

Why are different opinions and views so frightening for you? Why are you getting so aggressive? Again this board is international! People agree to certain things. they are used to . Others don´t.!

Rob


Posted by: RomanticTX

I have decided to ignore negative threads or negative posts, I will try to be more of a positive member.

But , I just got to say this, not in a confrontational way, but there is no Internet Police, and being in the US you can say, write, sing WHATEVER you want to.
We have the First amendment protection!!! That is why we have in the US groups like the neo-nazis, black panthers, KKK, and all of them can say ANYTHING!

We may not agree, but this has been taken all the way up to the US supreme court and the freedom has been upheld.

I am actually proud of my fellow Americans (yes I consider myself an American now) in this forum, having the freedom and option to say whatever they want, they are very well behaved!


Posted by: James Riske

As Red Skelton would say, "I calls 'em as I sees 'em!"

If you think that's picking on women, so be it. Perhaps if so many didn't engage in such a manner, I wouldn't have any ammunition, huh?

As far as rob-we goes, it's clear that he plays games from time to time and gets a kick out of getting a rise out of people, that's all. The internet is like the Wild West and it takes all kinds.

Lloyd on James comp


Posted by: James Riske

Oh by the way, bugging your computer or telephone is not illegal. Bugging someone else's computer or phone is.

Each State has it's own laws regarding whether or not the recording can be used in court but it is clearly legal to put a recorder on your own phone or your own computer. If others use it, you are under no obligation to tell them it is being bugged. Or you can carry a small recorder on you and record her calls in Russian while she's sitting next to you on the cell phone and then have them translated. Again, perfectly legal.

When people use another person's phone or computer or talk openly right in front of you, they have no expectation of privacy and therefore you can record away all you want.

I NEVER told anyone to bug HER computer or phone. I tell them to put a bug on their phone in their home and record her when she visits and before you marry her. Big difference.

I'm a licensed Private Investigator in the State of California and have been for 20 years, I think I know the law about wire tapping. Please don't spread rumors about the laws when you don't know what you're talking about. Either look them up, consult an attorney, or be quiet but don't spread incorrect information or accuse me of advocating criminal activity.

(and as a side note: So far, since helping James catch his Russian user and scammer two months ago, I have helped three other American men snoop on their little Russian brides and guess what? ALL three have since dumped them flat out on the streets. Does that sound like bad advice? They all saved themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars, years of their lives, and untold heartache at the hands of these female criminals. )


LLOYD


Posted by: rob_we

Bug her.

Go to radio shack and buy a cheap phone tap that plugs into your extension outlet and hook up a tape recorder to it and stash it under the couch or wherever. If she sends emails, put a keyghost logger on the computer to capture her letters. www.keyghost.com Send it all out to a translator and then find out if she's planning on using you or genuinely loves you.

LLoyd are we in a linguistic discussion now again? Bug her means bug yourself????
If you bug your phone intending to listen to other people talking through your phone or recording it without telling them thats

a; illegal
b; ethically wrong

in all civilized countries on this planet!

US Bill of rights

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


International declaration of human rights:

Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

And please dont tell me now its reasonable enough because she is a russian woman, or a woman! I do not think you will win a law suit on this one anywhere!
By the way secured computer webclients (as used in any e-mail clients allowing to be accessed from a different computer (thats what the russian girls use usually)) are legaly treated (in germany) like a closed letter in private possession of the person. We are not talking about postcards right?
I guess its similar in US as in any other civilized country!
I think its odd that I even have to talk about it. I think its odd that a fundamental human right (privacy) is a matter thats seems to be NOT CLEAR for you LLoyd. Legaly and ethically!
I think its odd that this is something that civilized people can not agree on! Its a basic human right! THAT IS NO DISCUSSION POINT TO ME!.
What you do by bugging another person listening to her private talk, reading her mail etc. is clearly offensive and to me in no means any better than a scammer! You use the trust of someone else towards you, and you betray someone you claim to like or even to love. Or did you tell your girls before that you "bug them" , and I missed that point?


Posted by: FlashingEyes

rob_we,

You can make an argument that what Lloyd suggests is ethically wrong, even morally wrong.

However, don't exaggerate your legal knowledge. You've done this quite a few times recently, claiming that you are knowledgeable about legal issues here in America related to 1) home surveillance, 2) contract law, 3) law enforcement capabilities. In each case you have made claims that have been wrong, and greatly diminished the persuaveness of your other arguments because you do not come across as credible. In this case, Lloyd is correct from a legal standpoint and you are incorrect from a legal standpoint.

If you will curtail your arguments to avoid making claims you don't know to be true, then you will be able to make more effective arguments. In this case, I suggest you admit you don't understand enough about American law to be able to make the assertions you made earlier that what Lloyd suggests is illegal, and instead focus on the ethical and moral issues.


Posted by: rob_we

Flash lets not go into linguistic discussions again...

Lets do something else. It might be interrestring at least for all russian girls on this board.

Lets ask anyone here:

1; Is it due to your knowledge or due to your belief legal to bug somebody else in US?

2; Is the Amendment IV here not useable and why not?

3; Is the declaration of human rights valid in the us?

4; Do you personally consider it to be ethical and ok?

now im curious....


Posted by: parasionok

If I find out that my boyfriend bugs me, I will dump him right away. Why do I want to be with someone who has no respect for my privacy and who does not trust me at all... What kind of future I might have with a person like this... Lloyd might have had siome very serious reasons to recommend this, but I think anyone who thinks he needs to bug his partner, should dump this partner instead... to avoid humiliation of a bugged and a bugger


Posted by: parasionok

Flash,

i am not an expert on the US law nor do I want to talk about whether it is ethical to bug people... I watch American movies and I had an impression that it was not particularaly legal to break in other peoples homes, put keyghosts on their computers, or bug their phones... Maybe they are just movies and it is all science fiction... But if you are telling me it is legal if someone bugs me in the US, I would not want to live there..... Again, it is my personal opinion that I hope is not harming anyone here.

Para


Posted by: lolomarseille

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
Flash,

i am not an expert on the US law nor do I want to talk about whether it is ethical to bug people... I watch American movies and I had an impression that it was not particularaly legal to break in other peoples homes, put keyghosts on their computers, or bug their phones... Maybe they are just movies and it is all science fiction... But if you are telling me it is legal if someone bugs me in the US, I would not want to live there..... Again, it is my personal opinion that I hope is not harming anyone here.

Para


Well
and using good chains
and painting them in black?

sounds good regarding a tradition


unbelievable!


Posted by: parasionok

Lolo, welcome..... I am sure you will have lots of fun here


Posted by: lolomarseille

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
Lolo, welcome..... I am sure you will have lots of fun here



oh oh

i feel youger when i see them!


Posted by: rob_we

lolo,

be careful. It is probably allowed to use ur OWN chain in US due to the opinion of some people here! ...just the use of anybody elses might be illegal...


(of course as a european I have no idea about human rights in us, probably they are really different than anywhere else on this planet!)


Posted by: lolomarseille

you mean, rob, that property has rights, but russian brides ..less?
intersting way to think the world...
if she comes from gomel or another chernobylised area, don't you think she's more in trouble?
( coz the chains will sparkle in the nite too)


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

With all this talk of " bugging " and " bugger " - ( the latter is a rude word in England but I am not sure if its the case in USA ) , I have to ask several questions
1) Are the people who advocate bugging scared of women ?
2) Are the people who advocate bugging paranoid ?
3) Are the people who avocate bugging got more money than sense - ie what the hell is it going to prove - at the very least if your gf found out you were doing this to her she would according to the universal rules of dating dump you.... is this what you want ?
4) Why oh why oh why oh why cant you find a woman who you can trust - Lord - if someone is so uncertain about someone why go to all these lenghths to prove a point ? Surely its just easier for everyone to end the relationship and move on ?

5) Are the people who advocate bugging also in the habit of bugging thier girl friends phones in the USA or wherever ( this seems BIZARRE behaviour IMHO ) ?


Anyone like to comment ?

Rattle


Posted by: Anubis

I have a interesting story, regarding bugging a person's phone or computer, which worked in my favor. First, I would like to say that I have always been a trusting person and always respected someones privacy, except when there are red flags.

I started noticing changes in my ex-wife's behavior and felt something was wrong. I tried to talk to her about any issues that she may have regarding our marriage. She stated that nothing was wrong and I was just being silly. Well, my parents did not raise a fool, so I started watching more carefully of the things she was doing, like; staying on the computer all the time and hanging up the phone quickly, as I came into a room.

So, I decided to bug the computer and the phone. I found out that she was having affair with a man, she met on the internet and they were having phone sex and doing all kinds of perverted acts. I was in total shock! She claim to be the perfect Christain wife and all along, she was doing all kinds of perverted things behind my back. By law, she had the right to claim half of everything we own and even half of my pension. But, with all the evidence that I had on her, she left quitely with only her clothes and car.

I was lucky to find out about my ex-wife, because I could possibly be living in a cardboard box on the street. So, if I see red flags in a relationship with someone, you bet your sweet ass I will bug the phones and computers!


Posted by: rob_we

its amazing.... I understand things like this hurt but...

i just wonder if there is anything you would respect? I was acused to be wild west here....

Just a question or two....

Would you have left and give her everything if you were wrong?

...and you are you absolutely sure you did not do ANYTHING wrong? You were perfect?...

...and what about the time she spent with you? Do you really think she deserves nothing?

..and what if shes too clever and goes somewhere else phoning and in an internetcafe to chat?

...what is the "next step?"


Posted by: parasionok

Anubis,

I am sorry to hear about your story... BUT

you can kill me now, but still

Quote:
So, I decided to bug the computer and the phone. I found out that she was having affair with a man, she met on the internet and they were having phone sex and doing all kinds of perverted acts. I was in total shock! She claim to be the perfect Christain wife and all along, she was doing all kinds of perverted things behind my back. By law, she had the right to claim half of everything we own and even half of my pension. But, with all the evidence that I had on her, she left quitely with only her clothes and car.


How desperate a woman should be to engage herself into cybersex? I don't know... that' really the extreme...
On the other hand, if you use ICQ, just register there as a female and enable "Available for chat" option... And believe me you will start receiving messages like "What are you wearing? Are you hot?" and much much worse from the guys who claim to be married, and happy in their marriages.... And btw, you are likely to receive 50% of those "cyber" messages from the americans! Just experiment if you dont believe me... I use ICQ for work, so I know what I am talking about...... NOTE: there is no idication in my info that I am looking for something... anything... it is enough that you are a female and under 100 yo.

Why do people do that? I don't know... lots of them say they are GOOD CHRISTIANS... can you tell me what a good christian wife or a husband is? Can you tell me WHY all those people engage themselves into this cyber activity? What's wrong with them?

I don't know about your story... I don't know your wife... I don't know you... but I DO know that bugging my husbands computer is wrong... not because i dont want to know what he is doing behind my back... because i would not be able to respect myself if i did something like this... If i stop trusting my partner, I just leave.. whats the point of bugging? CAN ANYONE SOMEONE explain me? if you proove yourself wrong, you will feel guilty towards your partner for the rest of your life... if you proove yourself right, well you have to break up ONE WAY OR ANOTHER...

IMHO

Hope I am not harming anyone with this post (I am getting paranioc here)


Posted by: wavetossed

Constitutional amendments generally only limit the powers of the Federal government and organizations which get their power by delegation from the Federal government. This includes state governments, police forces, bureaucrats, etc. It does not include private individuals or private businesses.

Also, British humour is rather dry and sarcastic. Americans often don't understand British humour at all. So if Rob_we finds that people in the UK do not complain about his attitude it is probably because we understand more clearly what he is saying.

Also, in the UK we are used to foreign cultures and different cultures. We live beside Jamaican blacks and asians from Bangladesh and Uganda. We holiday in France and Spain. Our shops are filled with Dutch and Italian tourists before Christmas. Japanese tours wander through our castles and villages. If we travel 100 miles from our home everyone speaks a different dialect of English and we sometimes have difficulty understanding them. Several of our respected television stars are openly gay. We have pictures of naked breasted woman on page 3 of many of our newspapers. Our largest pharmacy chain has started to carry sex toys to complement the usual skincare and cosmetic product lines.

Americans are just learning that there are other countries and other cultures out there. Be patient with them, they will learn.


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Anubis ... I am sorry that your marriage broke down. I suppose in the economic circumstances I find myself in I do not like the idea of bugging because I suspect bugging is expensive , time consuming and as Para said it has the effect of making one feel guilty because one is in effect doubting the honesty of a spouse ( for whatvever reason and the reason may be unfounded )

But as you said Anibis- you are not a fool and when there's smoke there could be fire. Given the no blame culture of divorce in the UK , it would be easier to cope with divorce if I could blame
it on cyber sex or an internet romance and given the fact that a woman is entitled to half of everything no mattter how long she has been married this again makes many men frightended and scared of the prospect of a divorce......

rattle


Posted by: eireannach

Quote:
Originally posted by parasionok
Flash,

i am not an expert on the US law nor do I want to talk about whether it is ethical to bug people... I watch American movies and I had an impression that it was not particularaly legal to break in other peoples homes, put keyghosts on their computers, or bug their phones... Maybe they are just movies and it is all science fiction... But if you are telling me it is legal if someone bugs me in the US, I would not want to live there..... Again, it is my personal opinion that I hope is not harming anyone here.

Para


In most telephone books here in the U.S., there is a part that says that recording telephone conversations without permission is illegal and subject to a $10,000 fine, 10 years in prison, or both. Illegal wiretapping is greatly annoying. The law enforcement agencies have to have good reason to bug someone's telephone, and they have to get a court order to do so.


Posted by: rob_we

rattle
you are right. But maybe I am realy oldfashioned...

To all (who love to bug women) out there
Nobody is forced to marry ( I assume it to be the same in the US as elsewhere).
When you marry you are usually grown up ( I assume it to be the same in the US as elsewhere).
If ou are grown up you are responsible for what you are doing( I assume it to be the same in the US as elsewhere).
In europe there are things called mariage contracts( I assume it to be the same in the US as elsewhere).
So if this is the case in us too then why does not anyone who is afraid just do one of these...
If you marry someone, you love this person or you have whatever other reason( I assume it to be the same in the US as elsewhere).

As a grown up you should be aware of the consequences!

I cant understand why everyone is complainig about this stuff afterwards??? I am divorvced I pay money for my woman!
Because once i decided to marry her, I was grown up, and I am responsible!
I can not understand why guys are complaining about this issue all the time.

Even if you will now tell me that there are no marriage contracts in the us then just

DONT MARRY IF YOU ARE NOT ABLE OR WILLING TO BARE THE CONSEQUENCES IN ANY MEANS!

Live together without marriage and go or "throw her out" whenever you like!

This woud be the propper way, and nobody would have to break the law!


Posted by: James Riske

I can assure you that Lloyd knows what he's talking about and before I put a recorder on my own phone, asked my lawyer (that I've known for 20 years) and he said it is perfectly legal to put a recorder on your own phone. You don't need permission to record your own conversations any more than you need permission to put a recorder in your shirt pocket and turn it on all day.

I think I'll take the word on a legal matter such as this of a licensed PI and my business attorney, if you don't mind.

It's amazing to me how his simple advice of putting a recording devise on your own computer and/or telephone or in your shirt pocket gets twisted around to 'breaking into someone else's home and installing a bug' or 'planting a virus bugging devise in an email to her to be installed on her computer'.

Anubis, I'm sorry that you had to go through what you did and I've been there, brother. It's amazing what you find out when you do a little snooping on people. By taking the initiative and bugging your computer, you saved yourself much money, time, and effort. Good job. You did the right thing. I ONLY advocate bugging when it is a last resort to get at the truth and in your case it was as your suspicions were correct. Sometimes, you just can't put your finger on it but you just know that the person you're with isn't quite 'right' and that something is going on and they are being dishonest. And your lucky, Anubis, if you divorced her in California, she would have taken about 90% of your property even though she was carrying on like a slut behind your back, it's a no fault State here.

It's amazing how a little $15 inline tap at radio shack can save hundreds of thousands of dollars.

By the way, Lloyd showed me a new tap he got from England just last night. It's completely undetectable. Even the CIA couldn't find this tap unless they physcially saw it. It surrounds the wire and actually picks up the conversation from OUTSIDE the phone line itself and draws no power whatsoever from the line and the conversation is clear as a bell. Really cool.

James


Posted by: James Riske

"""""""" But if you are telling me it is legal if someone bugs me in the US, I would not want to live there..... Again, it is my personal opinion that I hope is not harming anyone here."""""""

No, he's saying that it's legal to bug your own phone and not someone else's.

I thought that was very clear in his response.

James


Posted by: rob_we

James
Ok I understand !
You want to record YOUR OWN conversations with your girl. OK. That might be legal in us. How stupid of me...
And then by playing back the recording you will find out that she betrays you with you ...

then you dump her. I see...

this makes now sense to me. ...

btw. thanks i won 20 ˆ...

we made a bet that you will come up with this one


Posted by: James Riske

""""LLoyd are we in a linguistic discussion now again? Bug her means bug yourself????
If you bug your phone intending to listen to other people talking through your phone or recording it without telling them thats

a; illegal"""""""""


rob_we, I'm James, the guy who did put a bug on his phone and not only did I take Lloyd's advice, who set it up for me, but I asked my business attorney as well. Admittedly, I didn't go out of my way to ask but he's a friend of mine that I golf with once every two weeks or so. It is perfectly legal to put a recorder on your own phone. When other people use someone else's phone, there is no 'reasonable expectation of privacy' was the way it was described to me. I also run a telemarketing company and I routinely record my employees' conversations all the time. Again, perfectly legal for employers to bug telephones and computers in the work place. I don't particularly snoop on my employees but listen to them off and on for training purposes and to help teach them to sell. They all know I listen in from time to time. If they are on a break and making personal calls, I don't listen but I could if I wanted to legally. It is my phone, you see? I also have monitor cameras throughout the building that continuously record to protect me from various lawsuits as well.

Now, whether such conversation can be used as evidence if the parties are not notified they are being recorded varies from State to State.

I'm not an attorney, Rob, but please don't spread misinformation on the law. It does not matter what your intentions are; if it's your phone, put a bug on it. Other people using it are subject to the status quo of your phone when they use it just the same as if you came to someone else's house with a friend of yours and the owner recorded your conversation with your friend as they went to the other room. Perfectly legal, my friend.

James


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
James
Ok I understand !
You want to record YOUR OWN conversations with your girl. OK. That might be legal in us. How stupid of me...



No, it's legal to put a bug on your own phone and computer and if other people use your phone and computer, that's their problem. They have no rights as they are using your property.

Get it?

They have no 'reasonable expectation of privacy' when they use another person's phone. That's how my lawyer explained it to me and I tend to believe him. He's been my business lawyer and handles all the lawsuits for the city of El Cajon as well as the dozen or so I get every year and he wins every damn one of them! Fiesty little guy, he is.

I don't know how else to say it or how much more clear to make it and will drop it at that. I don't want to belabor the point and bore everybody with a legal issue. You can jump up and down and make all the bets you want but it's still going to be legal where I live to do it.

James


Posted by: BradIL

rattlesnake--- just curious if parasionok has figured out the difference betweening bugging & bugger.

Have you, as the fine English gentleman that you are, endeavored to explain (demonstrate? ) the difference between the two? Curious how you handled that PM between the two of you?


Posted by: parasionok

James,

I just consulted with a lawyer in the US. He said in some states it is legal and in some states it is illegal...

Agreed, you proved yourself right....

BUT you know what?

First of all, you have to write which state it is legal to bug your spouse. Secondly, whenever I am in the US, I will be extremely causios about what I write, what I talk on the phone about, etc... not related to my private life of course. My bf has all my passwords and he can access my e.mail accounts any time he wants... I just know he will never do it because he respects me and because we trust each other.... we do not have secrets in front of each other... BUT again if he thinks he needs some privacy to talk on the phone, I will immediately leave the room. Not because I am a wanker. I will do it becasue he HAS a right to talk privately... Maybe he is planning to surprise me and I enter the room and he hangs up the phone? Should I bug him and feel sorry for the rest of my life? What about TRUST? Or in the US nobody trusts each other any more? You guys are so religious, you are talking about LOVE on every corner in Russia trying to teach the rest of the world about goodness, freedom, forgiveness?

Who is talking about sweet freedom and the Bill of Rights and International Declaration of Human Rights? Why are you asking us the Russians how we feel experiencing all those bounties of your fake freedom? We poor Russians were so suppressed by communists who jailed us, bugged us, put us in concentration camps just because we said something agains the COMMON opinion... How are you different then?


Posted by: parasionok

Brad,

do you know the difference between bastard and mustard? Do you know the difference between not being able to trust people and being paraniod? You PMed me telling me that I should not harm people here... You PMed other people asking whether I was really a Russian girl... ?

Can you explain me, being such a fine American gentleman, how come you are not directing any criticism or giving any arguments or addressing me directly?


Posted by: rob_we

James
I talked to my US lawyer. He told me that it is legal to bug your own phone. (At least from the procecuteable point of view.) It is illegal to bug anyone elses phone.
So you were right thats its legal in your state.
Its amazing to me I just couldnt believe it...
Until now i still had some respect before the bill of rights...

He also told me that spying out passwords is legal in certain states, that means to have the knowledge of those.
However he said it is illegal to use them to break into a password protected computer system (including an e-mail client) in any state as long as you do not own the facility....

So it seems you got one point.

Now i wonder how you get her e-mails....


Posted by: Anubis

James, thanks for the understanding of my actions. Some people walk through life with blinders on and live in a world where they can't see the red flags of something going wrong in a relationship, until its to late. Well, that is not me, I'm very aware of my surroundings and when I smell smoke, I don't wait until the fire burns me! I guess some people would have avoided doing anything about the red flags and waited until there wife came home with a sexual transmitted disease or until she came home pregnant with her new man's baby, before they get the wake up call.

My ex-wife knew she did wrong and that is the reason see left quitely. If I did the same thing to her, that she did to me, I would be more than happy to leave quitely too!


Posted by: RomanticTX

Para,


Quote:
"Or in the US nobody trusts each other any more? You guys are so religious, you are talking about LOVE on every corner in Russia trying to teach the rest of the world about goodness, freedom, forgiveness?

Who is talking about sweet freedom and the Bill of Rights and International Declaration of Human Rights? Why are you asking us the Russians how we feel experiencing all those bounties of your fake freedom?"


With all respect you are insulting American people and generalizing about American people! You are always so sensitive when someone says anything about Russi aor its people. Could you please live by the golden rule?

We doo not have a fake freedom. You have lived here (studied) and you know that! Or you experienced anything different while living here?

Just wondering!


Posted by: parasionok

Anubis,

I also left quietly when I realised my Italian ex boyfriend was not the right partner for me and he was cheating on me.... He still kept my money and my library though he claimed he stored all my books (about 1.000 in the basement). I just wanted to run SOOOOOOOOOO far away from him, that I never bothered to ask him to return whatever I left behind and that belonged to my family or myself... Damn, who am I to go as low as to start bugging people and sueing people? Who cares? I was going through lots of pain and regret... I did lots of things that were not right. It was my fault as well as his that the relationship didnt work out.

It takes time to get over this... Once you do, the world gives you so many opportunities to love, to be loved. Maybe you will make a mistake again, nobody is insured against it. But what I think will help is trust, understanding, and belief that not all people are cheaters.


Posted by: RomanticTX

Also, some people have expressed that they do not want to live here in the USA.

Good! We do not want you living here!

GO live wherever you are happy and wherever you feel comfortable!

Has any one seen the sign, "we want all of you to live here"?

I have not!

I live in the US, by my own decision and had a chance to live in Europe and Latinamerica, as I have 4 citizenships.

My decision, and I am very happy here, thannk you!


Posted by: rob_we

...I just wonder if there is anybody else here who has respect before another human being...
(but the people who already posted as para, rattle, wave, lollo,eireanach) most of them expats on this board though

I am not sarcastic now, just shoked, I mean in Germany once it was legal to take away the possession of others. I still would be shoked if someone would tell me he did though or being even proud of it like some are here...

...just amazing....


Posted by: rob_we

...and RomanticTX

I can not speak for my country Im afraid, we didn´t have a democratic poll about my opinion here (in Germany) to use the we (that would implicate at least a majority of germans). I only can talk for myself....


Posted by: RomanticTX

Exactly ROB,

YOU don't want to live here, Believe me, that is just OK!

If you feel that in the US you are needed, please don't feel that way!

Even in my family, both of my parents live in a different country. They do not like living in the US. That is OK! And nobody has sent them a letter from the US trying to convince them to live here.

Has anyone tried to convince you?

Have you received the letter from the INS asking you to live here?

If you have, please disregard it!
I hope you are happy in Germany!


Posted by: parasionok

Romantic,

my goal in life is to live in different countries. I did work in the UK, Hungary and Germany... I also spent lots of time in the US. I went to UCLA. I loved it in LA, but I was 17 yo back then... USA is not the only country in the world to explore---- luckily.

Now, if it is common in the US to bug your spouses and it is legal, I accept it... It is YOUR country and YOU can do whatever you wish as long as it is not against the law, then I can accept it... Why lots of Russians do not want live in Russia? Becuase they want freedom. They don't want to be afraid anymore. We used to be afraid of our kids, husbands and wives because we could never be sure whether out beloved ones were not traitors and were not reporting on us. Read Solzhenitzin... We were afraid about our neighbours... We were afraid about our colleagues... One step left, one step right, and you are in jail.... What I think you should tell to your future spouses is that there wont be much chage in YOUR country...

Romantic, I have been so fascinated about Chile. Do you remember why Allender was impeached? He was a DEMOCRATIC ELECTED president of Chile, and the US facilitated his removal through the service of Augusto Pinochet that resulted in 3.000 dead chilenians. Was it done for the sake of democracy? I dont think so... 36.3 % voted of Allender, 27.9 voted for Tomic, and 35.7 for Rodriguez. Was it a democratic election? Yes, I think so... But US claimed that Allende wanted to establish a Cubalike dictatorship which would have destroyed human rights... The US opposed to Allende by imposing an economic and dimplomatic pressure. On Septermber 11 1973 (funny isnt it?) Allende was killed.... along with 3000 more chilenians...

For the sake of "freedom", the US plots and supports junta regimes in other countries, for the sake of "freedom" you bug your girls... well, I guess if I want to be free I really should stay away from the US or any country that they "have liberated"....


Posted by: parasionok

Romanic,

Quote:
Have you received the letter from the INS asking you to live here?
If you have, please disregard it!


Now proove that you have a right to disregard any invitation or job proposals for Rob he ever received from the US government or any US company...

If my work permit in Germany will ever be disregarded, it will be done by the GERMAN authorities, not by the Turks who have kebab shops placed all over the country...


Posted by: RomanticTX

Para,

First you DID NOT understand what I told ROB!

HE can disregard the Letter from the INS!

No one can force him to live in the US, can they?

Just as You can destroy yoour work permit in Germany.

I didn't say, "for the powers bestowed to me, I order you to destroy the INS letter."

Once again, you are being derogatory! Are you better than the Turks selling kebabs in germany? I do not think so! You are just as immigrant as they are!

Your analogy of the Turks is as a reference to me. Well, believe me, If I were a Turk selling kebabs (which by the way was one of the most decent meals I had while in Germany; food there isn't exactly the Best in the world), I would be proud!

You can say that I sell tacos here if you want; the analogy is better. However, it is not offensive to me as I do not think that I am higher or better than a Taco stand attendant.


Posted by: wavetossed

I'm a Canadian and I have lived in the United States in both San Jose and Sacramento California. And I can assure you that you do have a fake freedom very similar to Canada.

I now live in London and I couldn't believe how much freedom there was here in the old world. I had been brainwashed by American propoganda to believe that Europe was somehow an unfree place just like during WWII. Believe me it is FAR from that.

Then I had the same experience all over again when I visited Russia. There is even more freedom in Russia than in the UK. It's incredible the things you can do there. If it doesn't harm anyone else, you can do it. For instance in Ekaterinburg. They haven't bothered putting in crosswalks and pedestrian signals except at a few confusing and dangerous spots. Everywhere else you just walk out when there is a break in the traffic, the cars slow down for you if necessary, you stand in the middle of the road as they all whiz past and wait for a lull in the other direction. Beautiful.

People build shops and kiosks anywhere there is extra space on the sidewalk or in a ground floor apartments. People don't complain, they either shop there or they don't. You want to sit on a park bench and sell mobile phones and phonecards, go ahead. You want to sit on the sidewalk drinking beer and watching the world go by, go ahead. When people are rebuilding sidewalks they don't block off the whole thing. Everybody just stays away from the spot where the work is actively going on. You want to work on a building site in bare feet, go ahead, it's your feet. Your goats need some grass? Well there is some growing in the apartment building courtyard behind the swings where the kids don't run around much. Let those goats eat.

The guys who spend all their time speaking English in apartment-hotels, restaurants and taxis don't know what they are missing. They never see Russia. I wandered all over the place spending about 4 hours exploring before my girlfriend arrived and then many hours with her just strolling around in random directions chatting with her in Russian and occasionally talking to passersby to make sure we weren't headed too far from the city center. We rode on trams and buses when we were too tired to walk and I ordered and paid for the tickets myself. I asked a middle-aged lady to take the empty seat that opened up beside my girlfriend. She wanted me to sit but I insisted. I listened to pensioners chatting on the bus and the drunken farmgirls arguing with their mother. I saw a bus driver stop our bus and reverse back to the stop when he saw an older lady running towards it waving her arm. In London he would have pressed the accelerator. I saw hand-lettered signs all over the place and people that were well-dressed and well-groomed. I saw very little vandalism of any sort even wandering among some very run-down apartment blocks with shabbily dressed kids running around.

Now I'm sure you do FEEL free in your home country, but surely you realize that most people in most countries feel free. But levels of freedom differ in many ways and that which feels like freedom to you does not feel like freedom to me. In Sacramento I had a car and I could go anywhere. But there was too much sameness. Everywhere in America is like that, the same chains are in every town and city across the land. You aren't free to choose the way that I can in London where the few chain stores and restaurants still compete with hordes of independent shops. If I don't want to eat KFC I can go to CFK or Tennesse Fried Chicken or Halal Fried Chicken or any number of muslim takeoffs of the KFC concept. I'm not stuck with that godawful Grecian bread that I shudder at even today. I can choose my southern fried chicken supplier based on the best bread if I want to. I couldn't do that in Sacramento because the business was all taken up by KFC and Carl's Junior and a handful of other franchises. America has problems and you aren't going to be able to fix those problems by flagwaving and telling everyone how America is the best.


Posted by: RomanticTX

Ay Ay ay Chihuahua!!

"America has problems and you aren't going to be able to fix those problems by flagwaving and telling everyone how America is the best."

When did I say that???

Are you happy in England? Good! I am happy for you (By the way, I will be in London for a month in December, I hope you don't mind!)

Rob and Para are happy in Germany. Good for them!

I happen to be happy here, like many other people. Both people who were born here and many from other countries!

My point is, live wherever you want to live and be happy, China, Australia, Iceland.

If you don't like the USA, that is OK! I do not like many European countries (list is supressed as Europeans tend to be very sensitive here), well, have you heard me repeat over and over that I would not live there. No! I just don't!

Would you care that I do not live in England? NO
Do you want me to believe that England is the best country in the world? No you shouldn't care!

My point is exactly that, we do not need you or Para or Rob here. We are just as happy!

p.s. If yoou only ate in KFC while in California, I certainly understand your dislike of the US. KFC is gross! I do not even remember the last time I ate there!


Posted by: parasionok

Romantic,

first of all I am not an immigrant in Germany... The US company ASKED ME to come to germany and work for them there. I had a contract with a Belgian company but the US made me a better offer... Thats why I am in Germany now and not in Brussels.

I do not think I am better than the Turks selling kebabs... of course not... They are feeding the country... I also dont think anybody but the german authorities can order me out of their country or disregard my invitation to work or reside in this country, not anybody from any forum no matter what country they are coming from. Át least I know for sure that it is TOTALLY illeagal to bug even your own phone... I cannot go to the shop and buy all necessary accessories to bug my friends' or my own phone... I cannot just download any software on my computer to bug people without any concequences..... Even if I record my messenger conversation for whatever reason, it is only legal in germany what I write, only my part of a conversations... Unless the other party is consent to have his conversation recorded upon his authorisation... Otherwise, no chance I can bug my husband here and produce his e.mail correspondence as an avidence that he was cheating on me blah balh... on the contrary...any court who receives this inauthorised spying after anyone would put you to jail for violation of privacy based on
article 10 saying

Artikel 10
Brief-, Post- und Fernmeldegeheimnis
(1) Das Briefgeheimnis sowie das Post- und Fernmeldegeheimnis sind unverletzlich.

(2) Beschränkungen dürfen nur auf Grund eines Gesetzes angeordnet werden. Dient die Beschränkung dem Schutze der freiheitlichen demokratischen Grundordnung oder des Bestandes oder der Sicherung des Bundes oder eines Landes, so kann das Gesetz bestimmen, daß sie dem Betroffenen nicht mitgeteilt wird und daß an die Stelle des Rechtsweges die Nachprüfung durch von der Volksvertretung bestellte Organe und Hilfsorgane tritt.

means that all my correspondence is NO WAY to be touchable, destroyed or used...

Now we found it in English:

(1) Privacy of letters, posts, and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
(2) Restrictions may only be ordered pursuant to a statute. Where a restriction serves to protect the free democratic basic order or the existence or security of the Federation, the statute may stipulate that the person affected shall not be informed of such restriction and that recourse to the courts shall be replaced
by a review of the case by bodies and auxiliary bodies appointed by Parliament.

So if you want to bug me, you have to get an approval by the German parliament, or you go to the Generalbudesanwalt and convince them that 1. your gf is a great threat to the Budesrepublik Deutschland by running a crimminal or terroristic organisation persuing activities against the country or the well-being of the worldm even then you are not alllowed as a private person to conduct any further investigations using any equipment or just listening to private conversations 2. you are not allowed to listen to any ORAL conversations between two other people without any invitation from BOTH of them as a private person no matter wherever they talk 3. you are not allowed to own hidden equipment used for bugging or spying on someone...

In Europe people learnt how valuable pravacy is... If I bug my bf or husband or friend or whoever here in Germany, he might sue me. I will have lots of problems if I ever do that...

but it is not the point here...

the point here is IF i find out that my bf is bugging me, I will dump him... I wont hesitate UNLESS I love him...

then I will talk to him (if he is willing to talk to me) and tell him how much i love him, and resolve the problem. Explain him why or for what reason i might have contacted other guys.. what sort of misreading misinterpretation of my messages he might have had... then again ask him why in the world he wanted to break into my comuter (I might have planned some christmas vacation for both of is or i might have ordered something for him on the inet)

Do not underestimate russian women.... We are able to use interenet and we are also able to surprise out bfs with all sort of gifts... I got my bf a present on his 40s bday. I organised a trip to Milano... Everything was booked on the inet... I think he liked it alot...


Posted by: rob_we

Romantic, Para

calm down if its about me... No stress.
I have a lifetime US visa. I own property and a company in the US. So no hassle about any INS invitations or whatever. If I have to go, I can


Posted by: RomanticTX

Para,

What does all that rebutal about bugs has to do with my comment?

I have acepted and appologized when i have been improper with you. I was expecting the same from you as you clearly used the Turks in a derogatory way.

If you didn't understand my post, please ask Rob. I think he didn't think I (romantic) was taking away his Visa privilege.

I was making a point, that he can live wherever he wants.

As for me, Rob can come to the US, or be denied every time!

I honestly do not care!

I didn't know German people need a Visa to come to the US as visitors. Last time I heard, lifetime visas will be replaced for 10 or 15 year visas (not sure on time). But there won't be any lifetime visas. Don't quote me, that is what I heard!


Posted by: rattlesnake6979

I dont own a company , I live in a small flat and I have an average job which pays alot less than you guys and gals get, but I really think bugging is weird - I have split with a girlfriend because she was three timing me but I didnt need a bug to suss this out - just her attitude towards me told me everything I needed to know.

Is this bugging thing part of modern america or is it some kind of throw back to the Cold war ?

Rattle


Posted by: rob_we

Romantic TX
Look. Every country has its beauty. Every country has its possibilities. And every conutry has its specialities.
It is good that we are different.
It is good that we have different opinions.
It is good if we share them.
Nobody wants the US to scream "mea culpa"
But also nobody wants the US to impose "ITS" ideas to anywhere on the planet. Thats all about it. And it also happens quite often.
Germans are germans in Germany. Anywhere else they are foreigners. This is the same for the US.
If it comes to common "ethics" you are very used to them because you learned them as basic beliefs when you grow up in the country where you are, or as new ones when you move somewhere else.
If you encounter a foreigner, you cope with him and compromise. If you are wrong you admit. Did anyone ever admit anything besides the expats here? I can´t remember actually...
Everything went on to a point where the us community here was convinced "We got them again, whatever it takes!" Thats how I feel, and it seems im not the only expat that feels like this here...
Some ethics, that are very different, require lots of talking and negotiation. If this is possible, you can merge. If not, one side imposes. This is what a lot europeans feel, when they talk to americans. That is what a lot european expect from americans.
Wave wrote actually what I feel too. This forum should help to understand russians right? But I see most people here only understanding each other against the rest of the world...
Lets find a compromise! Dig for it! Compromises are not weak! They are strong, because you win an ally instead of creating terrorists (as I feel here for example and maybe some others too quite some time)


Posted by: rob_we

RomanticTX
If you want to stay in US longer then 3 month a year without leaving the country as a foreigner, you need a visa
...same for a work permit...you need a visa....


Posted by: RomanticTX

Rob,

I would check on the lifetime visa thing! I heard that from someone who had his visa changed. Now they call it Lazer visa! Is not in your passport it is more like a card.

Compromise is what I am advocating here!

Respect those who live and those who want to live in the USA.

Respect those who don't want to!

Just a simple Golden rule here!

No country can say that it has never been guilty of something terrible in history. Russia, Germany, US, and so on!

This is a Russian meeting place, and lately has become a we-hate-the-way-you-live-in-the-US-place.com
if that is the case, what do anyboody care about the way we live here?

If you don't want a bug in your phone or computer, don't marry James or Lloyd.

If yoou don't care about bugs, marry them!

If I were to be buggedd by my girlfriend, she would be really dissapointed. I am as faithful as I can be!


Posted by: parasionok

Romantic,

definitely, I didnt go only to JFK while being a UCLA student but whatever.. and we do not have a food discussion here...

Panel, everybody, anybody

What i would be very interested about some people are thinking about Alleinde and Pinochet... Maybe it is very brutally off-topic but what the heck... It is an international forum after all and if we all only talk about russians and russian culture then it doesnt make any sense... There are how many russian people in here? or how many russian or slavic people you are trying to get rid of? Clarita, Lola, Pawel, Me.... we do not speak like you would expect us to??? Bad luck... we want a freedom of speech..... We want to express our opinions after all... I was surprised reading all your comments about Pawel's posts about Serbian music... Where is it written on this forum we do not have a right to share our favourite music, books or painters? Why do you accuse him of giving racisit comments? He wanted to share something with use and what is your response? Shame on you.... I understand Pawrel 100%, but i do not share his opinion... (and you do not understand him at all and do judge him. that shoes how ignorant you are... you do not know what his people were going through and you do not know how it affected his life and you dare judge his as a racist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) What are you doing? you are just accusing, humilating, and being intolerant to what other people are saying.... I was arguing with Pawel, I was not sure whether Rattle, RobOhio or James were saying... I am not playing a nice doll here trying to attract your attention... I am trying to express my opinion and you are trying to insult me.... Fine... if thats what you want, do it... I dont care, I still want to tell you what I THINK...Whats wrong with you guys? Then again I do not think it is all about russia here at all... it is more about americans telling how all russians are scammers, poor, living in ****holes, not being able to speak any languages and being not able to comprehend what morality or democracy or freedom means... from linguistical point of view (well, maybe Flashing Eyes will give us another usefil english lesson, or better he argues with me or Ron in Russian or in English) or whatever other pont of view.... Women are either scammmers or just stupid spinters (sorry for my spelling) that have nothing to do but to post here and create harmful advice... guys from germany and england are stupid as well... they flame and give harmful advice... right, lets do a nice forum here... everybody is happy, everybody is smiling everybody is artificial... Thats exactly why some people do not like americans... not all of americans... but just go into every lousy coffee shop in the US... a very friendly waitress is greeting you with her infrontofamirrortrainedsmile... HOW ARE YOU? i always wanted to answer: BAD, very bad. my bf cheated on me, I have a big problem with Mr. B at work and my mom is nagging me every day... SO WHY DO YOU CARE? but of course... if I told her this, i would have been probably expelled from the country... So I say: I am fine, thanks, how are you doing this glorious morning... Whenever I come back from the US I have this itch in my face.. I think my misculs worked to much faking that everlasting neverending americal happiness everybody expects from you once you step on the holy land of the true democracy....

You know, my own country always trried to shut me up, then the americans showed us the real freedom of speech... so let me talk... if you americans do not like it, ignore me or ban me from here... till the moment i am totally bannedand while I am still able to log in, I will execute my right of freedom of speech.... whether you like it or not..............


Posted by: rob_we

RomanticTX

Yup thats a level to talk. Me too!(looking for compromises)
But we also talk about advices here. We fight for the way, what is right in relationships with foreigners. we have to argue if its good and helpful if we want to be serious!
Russian girls are russian girls in any country in the world...
Why is it so hard for you guys to say yes I agree on this just because the poster its a non US guy?
As you did in you last post?(What I apreciate BIG TIME!!!! Thanx for this one )
You seem to be more my opinion, (that bugging is bad), than James or LLoyds. I think more guys from US are this opinion!
But all we have here always is throwing mudd on each other....
(Sometimes I get the impression people feel like kind of "traitors" if they would say I agree on this point...)
I think if we could stop the war that always arises because of this stupid nationality thing (I take the torch quite often too of course...) then we could be more into the topics...

Again its not WE (expats) hate america! ( I dare now to try to state an expat view) no! Just guys give "us" a chance to express a different view! Don´t impose the "only true belief" ...
I feel quite often being pushed in the corner with this , "what do you want anyway here ideology". Or "how can you dare to talk about US". One point in my argumentation! All other were not even touched! That brings you to the point of starting a war...

And remember the advice is for everybody! Not only for those in certain states. So it has to be different. Maybe sometimes even contradictive.. So what! Everybody can choose, everybody get something out, maybe somebody learns something, I do....


Posted by: ConnerVT

The thing to cherish most of the American right of free speech is that it isn't always necessary to do so.


Posted by: RomanticTX

Well lets be positive and lets disagree in a civil way!

For instance:

If John Smith someone advises John Doe to bug his computer or phone, that is John Smith’s advise!

Just say, I RomanticTx disagree with your advice, I do not think it is ethical!

Let’s make it one poster’s advice versus another poster’s advice! Not country versus country!

Why do we have to say that we hate KFC or looking at too many KFC’s, therefore the US is a bad country to live in?
Why do we have to say that the US has a Fake freedom?
Why do we have to say that German food is bad food, besides my Turk friends’ stands?
Why do we have to say that English people don’t brush their teeth?
Why do we have too say that Russian … well you see my point!

To give you an idea, I am still disappointed with Para’s post on the TURK ANALOGY and haven’t gotten a good response from her.
But again if I disagree is with Para, not because she is russian, and certainly her ideas do not reflect entire Russian Federation ideology!


Posted by: rob_we

RomanticTX
Mhmm I cant talk for Para but I could suggest lets agree on some colateral damage from either side during our battles

Things came up on either side too...

lets

exchange arguments and different opinions...

lets try to weight the topic more then the nationality....

BTW. I forgot...Thanks for the Visa tip. I will ask next week. I didn´t know this... I have My visa since quite a while...

...


Posted by: rob_we

ConnerVT

We have the freedom of speech anywhere in europe too and its not conditional... so its nothing to cherish especially about us...

just lets not again start this battle "who has to behave how"

I tried to explain my point....

as you said "its about advices here"

and about meeting different cultures...


Posted by: eireannach

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
...I just wonder if there is anybody else here who has respect before another human being...
(but the people who already posted as para, rattle, wave, lollo,eireanach) most of them expats on this board though

I am not sarcastic now, just shoked, I mean in Germany once it was legal to take away the possession of others. I still would be shoked if someone would tell me he did though or being even proud of it like some are here...

...just amazing....


I am NOT an ex-patriot. I was born and raised and lived all of my life here in the U.S. -- it just so happens that I am of Irish ancestory. I served in the U.S. Navy for a total of 7 years (including some reserve time) and was honorably discharged.

While serving in the Navy, I have been in 42 out of the 50 states, I've been to the countries of Canada, Mexico, P.I., Tonga, Australia, New Zealand, Kenya, the atoll of Diego Garcia, and was in the Gulf of Oman during the Iran Hostage Crisis. Even though my ship was "buzzed" by Soviet Bear bombers flying at just above mast level with the bomb bay doors open and the bombs clearly visable and you could see the faces of the plane crew through the windows, and having been circled by a fully armed Soviet Hind-D helecopter that had a weapons lock on us while we were in Mobassa, Kenya, and not to mention other "cat-and-mouse" games that went on while on deployment to the Western Pacific and Indian Oceans...I have no ill feelings toward the Russian people (or anyone else from the FSU). I have seen and witnessed things that would horrify most people...and I have also seen and experienced things that would give most anyone hope in the Human Race.

I DO have a great respect for life, and for the living of it. Even while I searved in the Navy during the Cold War days (which thankfully are over), I maintained that I had nothing against the Russian people...just didn't like the government in place at the time.

Now, I am glad to have the opportunity to actually get to meet people from Russia and the FSU...maybe I'll even get to meet a really nice woman about my age and see how it goes.

I know there are scammers to watch out for...I've met a few already (so-to-speak), but I'm not terribly worried about them. They are too easy to spot and to catch (trying to get them to stop is another issue).


Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:
Originally posted by rob_we
ConnerVT
just lets not again start this battle "who has to behave how"

Uh... Just because my post was under yours, doesn't mean my comments were in anyway dirrected towards you. My comment was about something written previously, but I don't spend all my time reading this forum.


Posted by: rob_we

Connert VT

..Then... never mind...


Posted by: James Riske

Quote:
Originally posted by RomanticTX


If you don't want a bug in your phone or computer, don't marry James or Lloyd.

If yoou don't care about bugs, marry them!

If I were to be buggedd by my girlfriend, she would be really dissapointed. I am as faithful as I can be!



haha! Thank you, Romantic, and I completely agree.

(by the way, thank you, Eireannach, for your years of service, especially during the cold war. You guys did a great job and I thank you)


I think perhaps I've been coldly painted as a guy who is overly suspicious and who spies on all women. The fact of the matter is that I'm 43 years old and have only done it twice in my life and I'll tell you why.

I only advocate doing it when you have extreme suspicions and have exhausted all other avenues of finding out the truth of the situation.

If I tell you about the first time I've ever done it, I think many of you will change your opinion of me and begin to see my side of the story. When I was about 30, I used to live with a woman that I was very close to, I was seriously contemplating marriage with her. We were friends for about 3 years and lived together for about 4 years. She had a son from a previous relationship and together we had a daughter that was about 6 months old. Now, in retrospect, since I'm more mature, it was a mistake to live with her and not marry her but that's a different story.

When my daughter was born I found that I really love being a dad and taking care of kids. I bonded with her son, who started calling me dad and we were all living as a family. I was saving up money to buy a home and marry her. After our daughter was born, I did notice that Nicole (the woman) starting turning a bit cold and distant to me but not that much. We were both working hard and saving money and I thought it was just one of those phases in a relationship.

Then someone from her work called me and told me that she was going out with different men from her work and leaving work early. It was quite a bombshell to say the least. I am the completely non-jealous trusting type and I would never have imagined this or thought this. I did know that sometimes she would come home from work late but I never questioned it. Lying and having affairs is so foreign to me that I never consider the possibility in other people and never thought twice about her odd hours, I just thought she was shopping or seeing her girlfriends from work. Even though she was a very attractive woman and got hit on all the time, she used to model for many years, I just am not the possessive or jealous type and never thought of her as lying to me.

When I confronted her about it, she at first lied for a few days but then admitted to me that she saw three different men over the last two years from her work. To make a long story shorter, over ther next few months we talked and talked and talked and I got mixed messages continually from her. She said that she only went out with them to get them to love her but never even kissed them, other times she was making out with them, other times it was just a game with them and not real dates. She promised to stop and get a new job and she did quit her job and found a new one but then came home late a couple times a week, etc. It was all very confusing and it was clear that she was not telling me the truth even though I would practically BEG her to just tell me what's going on and the truth.

Folks, when you have a baby at home and another boy who calls you dad and you've been with the same woman for seven years, it's hard to just up and leave. You try to make things work out, you try to get at the truth and it's frustrating when your partner isn't forthcoming with what's going on and continues to lie to you. You can't just leave and break up the family when you don't have all the information.

That's when I bugged our phone. After months and months of pleading and begging her to tell me what's going on: Is she still seeing these guys? What's she doing? Is it sex? Love? Do you just need more attention? Should we go to counseling? Is it my fault? Your fault? What?!! One side of me was sick of staying with her and being treated so badly and another side of me thought of the children and the family.

The second night of bugging the phone I had all my answers and left her the next day. She was still playing love games with these men and telling them every single thing that was going on in the house and meeting them all hours of the day. Even when I thought she was just going to the 7-11 for butter or milk, the man would meet her in the parking lot so they could make out. I could tell that from that point on, I could never trust her again at all.

Hardest thing in my life has been to hug my one year daughter goodbye and know that I would only see her on weekends from now on. But which would be worse: staying with her Mom and being treated that way?

So, I do not put a bug on a woman's phone at the slightest provocation. It probably seems that way to some on here because we all know that when your relationship reaches the point to where you find yourself posting on message boards asking advice and laying out your suspicions, 9 times out of 10, it's over. Here you have guys meeting Russian women for one week after sending them thousands of dollars who get pressured to marry them and your darn right my advice is to bug the phone. If you're not going to take the time to do the relationship right, to know her for a long time, to meet her family, to have her meet yours, to interact with her as a friend before marriage, you better do something to find out about her BEFORE you marry her.

And as Conner and Romantic have pointed out, it's merely my opinion and should be taken as such. It's something that I would do under certain circumstances and is a viable option that I offer to others as a way to help them. If they disagree, I don't flame them but understand that it's not for everybody. And I strongly oppose hacking their accounts at email or dating sites or putting bugs on her computer. I only advocate the legal method of bugging your own computer and phone.

And as you can see, I use it as a last resort under certain unavoidable circumstances that have important consequences. Don't twist my advice around to imply that I advocate illegal things or that I'm some bitter man who is suspicious of all women. Realize that there are two sides to every story and that well-intentioned advice should never be discouraged or ignored and considered with an open mind as it's probably the result of someone's personal experiences and hard lessons.

JAMES


Posted by: parasionok

James,

it is awful what happened to you and to your relationship. Ok, now I see you have a point. What I still dont understand, why you needed to bug your phone? You knew already what was going on.

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One side of me was sick of staying with her and being treated so badly and another side of me thought of the children and the family.


You were unhappy and you received that call (nice colleague she had btw), and you had all the proof you needed or I misunderstood you again? To break up is always far too dificult, especially when kids are involved. I think you did it more for yourself to free yourself from your wife? If this is the case, I really agree that you did the right thing. But I don'think it is a right thing to do when you just start a relationship. If the relationship is based on doubt and distrust, it is better to drop it from the very beginning... BUT it is easy to say, but sometimes it is not that easy to do. There are emotions involved. Love is blind and it cannot be rationalised.


Posted by: Anubis

James,

Sorry you got burned as I did. Your relationship sounds exactly like the one I was in for seven years, except we did not have children. I never thought my ex-wife was capable of doing the things she did, during our marriage. I never bugged anyone before and I thought it was the only way to find out the truth. Sometimes, we have to go to extreme measures to find out the truth. In the end, I'm glad I did what I had to do for peace of mind. Not knowing the truth, can destroy a person inside.

It has been two years now, since my divorce and I have completely healed from all the pain she put me through. Like they say, time heals all wounds! I have a new problem now! My ex-wife has been begging me to take her back for the past two months. I've tried to explain that I could never trust her and I'm not interested. But, she won't take no for an answer. The funny thing about this whole thing is, she said if I did not bug the phone and computer, I would never known and we could start over with trust in our relationship. Now you see why I'm glad I bugged MY phone and computer!

For the the record, hope I never have to bug a phone or computer again. I have always been a trusting person and respect others privacy. But, if I see smoke or red flags, I will dig out my little spy kit again.


Posted by: rob_we

James
First of all let me say, as with Anubis I feel deeply honestly sorry about what happened to you for you and your kids. I know what it is like I am divorced myself, and have a 4 year old daugher that I adore, and who I can see 3 days a week, but its still not enough... So I can absolutely understand your feelings!

Quote:
And I strongly oppose hacking their accounts at email or dating sites or putting bugs on her computer. I only advocate the legal method of bugging your own computer and phone.