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Moscow Police a Danger?
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Posted by: dls1223

Hi All,

There is a slim possibility that I will be going back to Moscow for business in mid-September. The first time I was there (last March) I had several people warn me about the 'Moscow Police Scam' in which the Moscow police would stop people and check their papers. It seems there would ALWAYS be something wrong with your papers, which resulted in a fine, but the police would be 'nice enough' to let you pay the fine to them instead of going to the station (of course, you wouldn't get a receipt). Is this actually true? When I was there I stayed/worked in the area around the Kremlin and in the evenings would walk around the area (GUM store, Red Square, Okhotny Ryad shopping mall and plaza, etc) and saw many Moscow Police, but they never stopped me or even seemed to look at me twice. Was I just lucky, or is the scam more of a myth than reality? Anything else I should be aware of other than the usual Big City Dangers?

Thanks,

David

Posted by: Jerico

Ya I have been stopped a couple of times by police to look at papers but they always just handed my passport back to me no questions asked with no problems.
Usually it seems the young police guys like to ask for papers.
I think its attitude that gives problems. I just hand them my papers not saying a word and keeping quiet. I think if you dont question them why they stopped you your OK.
On a side note- Only when I was alone did they ask for passport. Never when I was with my girlfriend did i have problems.

Jerry

Posted by: sidney

A couple years ago I was stopped with my then GF. Her papers were checked and OK. I had photo copies of my passport and they said I needed originals. As I had just checked into the hotel the day before they had my passport. They kept saying the same thing "Original passport" and I kept saying "I don't have it , The hotel has it because I checked in yesterday". This went on for more then 30 minutes. They were hoping I was scared and would offer a bribe but I was prepared to stand there all day. In the end they said next time they wanted to see original passport. I said yes sir and quickly left. I still do not take original passports on the street.
Sid

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by sidney
I still do not take original passports on the street.
Sid

Actually they were right

Russian federal law states you must ALWAYS have your passport on your person when outside (Russian citizens and foriegners). Coincidentally, American law states that all foriegners carry their passport at all times while out and about here, too.

Posted by: Castlestormer

Yes the shakedown of foreigners by police is true. They will make up all kind of stuff to get some money from you. Even Putin has said that the police can solicite up to 500 rubles from people on the street monthly. That's a pretty shrewd way of supplementing the income of the police force if you ask me. That's the bad news.

The good news is that the standard "tip" for a policeman on the street to "suddenly find your papers in order" is 100 rubles. That's less than $3 USD. Pay it and go!

The last time it happened to me, I was accused of spitting on a government building next to the Kuznetsky Most metro. I argued with the policeman for a while. He kept pointing to a kvartera (apartments, not govt) and saying that I spit on it. After a few minutes, this small voice in my head said: "Steve you idiot. You're arguing with a policeman in a strange country over $3. Pay it damnit and move on." I gave him $100 rubles from my shirt pocket. He left, and I moved on.

Sometimes it's not about truth and justice. Sometimes it about "When in Rome......" Keep a 100 ruble note with your papers and you will be fine. Don't argue, don't be afraid of them, and don't look like a tourist!

Posted by: dls1223

I agree with just paying the 'fine'. Certainly not a situation to stand on principle, especially when you are in somebody else's playground. There are some places here in the USA that I would have the same attitude.

David

Posted by: myshka

Just keep the rubles tucked into your passport and pull them out a little so when police look at your documents, they can just take the money.
If they dont say you were spitting they will say you threw a cigarette on the ground (no matter how many times you tell them you dont smoke !)

Posted by: sidney

Quote:

I agree with just paying the 'fine'.

I feel that when you cave in and pay off a bribe you only condone and perpetuate this type of behavior. They will,continue to do this and worse. The corruption will only get worse in a place known for corruption. Many years ago New York city did the same thing by ignoring the small crimes and theft that were taking place. It was only after cracking down on all crimes that peoiple began wanting to visit this city again. Corruption leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is more then a matter of principal . I feel it's about improving a place by fighting corruption even if I can do little more then a small apart by taking a stand.
Sid

Posted by: ConnerVT

Uh-huh... OK... Get real.

If you wish to spend good money on an airplane ticket, accommodations, use you vacation time, etc., to get into an argument with the local militia (which many, by the way, carry AK-47 knockoffs) over 100 or even 500 pyb on a matter of principle, be my guest.

Of course, most RM will be laughing at you, and any RW you end up meeting, once she learns of this, will think you a silly man and unworthy of serious consideration.

I'm not saying forget your core principles, but when in Rome...

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by ConnerVT
(which many, by the way, carry AK-47 knockoffs)

(OFF TOPIC) Sadly, most of the cops toting these "AK-47s" can't actually afford to put any bullets in them

Liliya's uncle is head of the region highway patrol, so I have this on pretty good authority.

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL
(OFF TOPIC) Sadly, most of the cops toting these "AK-47s" can't actually afford to put any bullets in them

Liliya's uncle is head of the region highway patrol, so I have this on pretty good authority.

Another off topic post....

....but its so much fun when you can afford to put bullets in them

Posted by: ConnerVT

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim_FL
(OFF TOPIC) Sadly, most of the cops toting these "AK-47s" can't actually afford to put any bullets in them...

See? It's really not off topic. For as little as 100 pyb a day, you too can help feed an AK-47.

Anyway, one does not need bullets. Several men with nightsticks can be quite effective also. Just ask R. King.

Police do not like to be disrespected, no matter where in the world their bailiwick is. Being respectful to them usually makes your day go better.

Posted by: dls1223

Sidney,

We all have to make our own decisions. It is one thing to stand on principle in NYC where you are a citizen and law and order are on your side, it is something else to do so in another country where you are not even a second class citizen. Being an American in Russia means that you are assumed to be able to pay a higher 'fine', nothing else. Your American rights don't exist outside the American embassy, unless you are in with an American company that has been investing heavily in the Russian economy (hmm, kinda similar to how things are here in the US...).

Searcher,

Is it still affordable to feed an AK-47 now that East Bloc surplus ammo is less available? Or is it still readly available and inexpensive? Don't see much cryllic labeled ammo in the Seattle area as in the past, perhaps y'all are just shooting it up before any can get up here!

Posted by: Castlestormer

Sidney, we luv ya, but.....

Thinking that taking a stand against a poor and underpaid Moscow police man will end corruption in Russia is EXTREMELY hopeful thinking. Thinking that fighting with a foreign official "packin' serious heat" over $3 USD will send them a strong moral message is verrrry wishful thinking.

I have met few people less afraid of a fight for justice than me. But I have also met many wise people who remind me to chose my battles.

Since Putin himself condones the practice, maybe you should write him a letter explaining your views. I bet he'll stop the practice immediately. (it could happen...well..OK..probably never)

CS

PS: Been to Moscow lately? There is quite an anti-American sentiment running around many people who think that the world is sick and tired of us dictating our morality on other countries.

Posted by: sidney

I view this in that if you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. But being willing to give in to these corrupt demands with no resistance you are sending the message that this is OK. It is not OK no matter the society or the finacial status of the individual. Plain and simple it is wrong. Corruption may be ingrained within this system (postal, police, judicial, teachers, etc, etc, etc) but does not make this right. Where do you draw the line in the sand? If you are robbed by the police of $3 or $15 or $300? Yes it is robbery in my book. If I am taken for $3 it probably will not change my mind about vacationing there again. If it's $300 I probably will never go back. To date it cost me nothing more then time no matter how valuable you list this time as. Five years ago in Moscow we americans would meet for breakfast at the rossia. I met one man that was asian-american. The night before he was leaving a bar late at night and was stopped by the police and taken to the station. He empied his pockets on a table. Had two rolls of money $100 in one and $300 in another. As he was against the wall he saw a police officer put the $300 roll in his pocket. There was nothing he could do. He was so turned off by this corruption that he would never return to russia. I have an aunt that was robber by mexican police for about $50 and has not returned. I would probably do the same. I find it unusual that Putin would encourage this type behavior with his tough stance on tax evasion and crime. The people seem to accept this and probably are powerless in changing it. Look at the mafia in america many years ago. It wasn't the people that put a stop to the mafia but rather the government by charging them with tax evasion. The russian government has no wish to do this because the corruption seems to filter down from the top. I may be little more then a speed bump on the poor, starving policeman quota of robbery but if no one tells him this is wrong what message do you think he gets.

Quote:

PS: Been to Moscow lately? There is quite an anti-American sentiment running around many people who think that the world is sick and tired of us dictating our morality on other countries.

One message they would get would be a reduction in tourist dollars. This is a message I'm sure someone would hear.

Quote:

Of course, most RM will be laughing at you, and any RW you end up meeting, once she learns of this, will think you a silly man and unworthy of serious consideration.

The GF I was with wasn't any russian woman. She couldn't have seen me as too silly a man because she accepted my marriage proposal a few days later. It was as much a test for her as well. If someone would see these actions as silly perhaps you should continue looking. I found a woman that is honest to a fault. Yes that is important to me. Maybe this is not important for your future or present wife and I can only wish that you find someone as corrupt as what you are willing to accept. I've been married three years now and it is only getting better. My wife comes from a family that does what they can to change the system but it is an uphill battle. She has an aunt that is a judge that gets frustrated at the bribes and payoffs some judges accept to sway the judicial system. Her father was robbed of $20 and beat up, not by the police, and was in the hospital for three days. They couldn't even trust the police enough to report this. Lets take a look at some fallout from this problem of corruption. Ukraine has less people living there then there were 20 years ago. People often want out of these situations. My wife doesn't even enjoy visiting ukraine with all this corruption. She sees that our US way may not be perfect but the freedoms and safety we enjoy are much better then back home. Just do your part to contribute to this and other corruptions but don't cry to me when the anty increases from $3 to whatever.
Sid

Posted by: sidney

I feel that you can not build a country or relationship on lies and corruption. Let the firing begin by those in disagreement.
Sid

Posted by: Jerico

Ya I dont like the idea of giving them money either , bribe or not.
If I was robbed of a large sum of money by the police I probably would not go back there again either.
Of course I have not had any real problems in Moscow or Russia period.Even 3 dollars would make me mad though. Thats gambling money

Posted by: Castlestormer

Then I pray that nobody here ever gets put into the position where they have to "take a stand against corruption" in Russia.

I admire your passion Sidney. Never underestimate the power of one man to affect change. The world is full of David vs Goliath stories.

Posted by: sidney

Castlestormer I probably have a lower threshhold of tolerance for corruption by those in authority. It would upset me to have them accuse me falsely even over a few dollars. It's not that I haven't been taken for a ride in russia just not by the police. I can relate one interesting story. I had a second date with a RW and wanted to go to the yolkeepolkee restaurant. She tought for a moment and then said yes she knew where it was located. We went for lunch and when I saw the place I knew it wasn't where I had asked to go but we went in anyhow. I call it the fish restaurant, I have a card someplace with the real name. The dining room is a ship upside down with a bottom lit glass floor. Four foot long fish swim under your table as you eat. When leaving I made sure to look at the sign to let her know I knew this wasn't the place I had in mind. It is one of the nicest restaurants I visited in Moscow and took my wife there for our then engagement. So that was somewhat of a scam which turned out good. Also after you order your meal in this restaurant the chef always feel that you are such good customers that he sends different food to you courtesty of him. If you look close at your bill you'll see that you are paying for his courtesy. Another scam I'm willing to tolerate. These are just some small examples to prove that I will tolerate some corruption just not by those in authority.

Posted by: Jill

As much as I despise corruption, I do agree with majority that it's better just to pay the bribe. Don't mess with the cops in this part of the world--you could end up really regretting it. And your American citizenship won't save you. Unfortunately I know several stories about US citizens who didn't "cooperate" with cops--they ended VERY badly. It's just not worth it, in my opinion.

Posted by: martin3030

The first time I went to Russia I was travelling from Moscow to Mineralnie Vodi airport South Russia.
At the Airport I was singled out and pulled to one side by some military guys on looking at my passport they were saying my visa was not valid in that part of Russia and I would have to pay.
My fiancee was arguing with them in Russian I didnt know what was going on.Eventually after 5 minutes in the terminal office she came out with a disgruntled look.
I said what did you give them ?
She said 60 dollars they said if we did not pay they were putting me back on the plane to Moscow.
During the next 3 hours we had to endure 3 roadside checkpoints I was frightened to death !!!we got through ok as I was in the back with her fathers russian cossack on..........almost everywhere you are faced with battonwaving police checking papers and saying you were speeding.........though the accuracy of their machines leaves much to the immagination.
In Moscow they cut up traffic in black BMWs with darkened windows just pulling out anywhere to hassle motorists for money.
It is a standing joke in my town among freinds I am more concerned about getting stopped by the russian police than terrorists bad hotels with no coffee facilities or anything else.
Also interestingly they are more interested in getting Dollars than rubles.......The only reason i take dollars there is purely as insurance to pay them should i need to !!!
Keep your head down your mouth shut and try to dress like a Russian man.......all in black......you should be ok...........

Posted by: neil277

Hello,

I have never come accross this before, dress in black?

I have had people in Odessa Ukraine ask me for money at airport my answer is no.

If i want to give someone money i will give, but no police man, airport staff or goverment will ask me for money.

Yes the people are poor but i have met so many beautiful people in the Ukraine who will help you, not for money.

Around the world all the goverments have to answer to us but they dont untill realection and then they grovel its so sad but this is life.

The people of this world need to stand up for themselves much more and not be scared of the goverments around us, we put them there and we can take it away from them.

Regards,

Neil

Posted by: Paul Swanson

My wife of one year is Russian (I am American) and she and I agree. Having both traveled and lived in many different countries. My opinion is that to make a stand for principle in any foreign country is not smart. You are definately the outsider. Even if you speak the language it will not be correct for the local community you are in. Have you ever looked in any jails in other countries? You don't really want to go there. I would never let one negative experience cause me to stop from visiting.

Posted by: Jim_FL

Quote:

Originally posted by martin3030

At the Airport I was singled out and pulled to one side by some military guys on looking at my passport they were saying my visa was not valid in that part of Russia and I would have to pay.

During the next 3 hours we had to endure 3 roadside checkpoints I was frightened to death !!!

You very well should have been frightened to death

You were heading into the heart of Chechniya (perhaps you've seen references in the news?

)

Quote:

Originally posted by martin3030

In Moscow they cut up traffic in black BMWs with darkened windows just pulling out anywhere to hassle motorists for money.
Ummmmm..................... that wasn't the police, that was the Mafia

[QUOTE]Originally posted by martin3030

Keep your head down your mouth shut and try to dress like a Russian man.......all in black......you should be ok...........

Don't even bother LMAO - You are a tourist, as such they can spot you coming a mile away, just like you can spot tourists in your part of the world. First things to give you away are your shoes and your wristwatch followed closely by haircut and/or glasses. Black clothes will NOT help you "blend" as much as you think.

Posted by: Jimtazem

Id agree with that.

I have had the great advantage of having apprentices that came from Ukraine and other parts of russia. They have been VERY helpfull in telling details about the real russia. Including translating some tapes and letters. The Mafia is so huge and uncontrolled its scary. If you dont speak fluent russian and dont look the part they will notice you and pick you apart.

Be very carefull if you ever go there, just like any other country.

Jimtazem

Posted by: sidney

Why do the Moscow police rob tourists and law abiding citizens? Don't they have enough criminals to chase? Or is it easier to catch crooks or tourists?
Sid

Posted by: Jim_FL

Russian police in general have a difficult time collecting their salaries from their employer. They can go months without a paycheck. They still need to feed their families.

On the other hand, the most common "nickname" for policeman in the US is cop, while the most common nickname for policeman in Russia is the russian word for condom

So this sort of tells you what the locals think of them......

Posted by: martin3030

I understand what you say but one can only go from their own experiences.

Watching the news over the last 24 hours A Russian reporter himself has admitted that several terrorists have been let go recently by bribetaking Police and Military......for sums as low as 100 dollars.
Yes of course its true they dont even have the money to put bullets in their guns.............but there needs to be a start somewhere to see some credibility and try to infiltrate the corruption but just where IS that starting point ?
My mother called me last night saying she was watching the news and that maybe I should be worried about going over to South Russia in September.
I reminded her that we in the UK had this from terrorists for 30 years but it did not stop us from going about our business.
Besides in proportion to the size of Russia the chances of becomming a victim of the terrorists are just as high there as anywhere else !!

Posted by: sidney

Quote:

while the most common nickname for policeman in Russia is the russian word for condom

I would guess the name is appropriate in the form of paying for protection. It was the mafia in america that did the same. We now have the insurance business doing the operating. At some point there has to be accountability. I don't feel this can happen until this form of highway robbery by the police is in check.
Sid

Posted by: sidney

Quote:

Even Putin has said that the police can solicite up to 500 rubles from people on the street monthly.

It seems that since the school tragedy Putin has made a 180 degree change in policy.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/

Quote:

Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia�s weaknesses, but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials.

Quote:

Measures would be taken, Putin promised, to overhaul the law enforcement organs, which he acknowledged had been infected by corruption, and tighten borders.

Posted by: Jimtazem

I hope Putin does something,

If that happened in america there would be riots and lawsuits... People would be hung.

I feel so sorry for the children. The fact that they died just for going to school on their first day none the less. And the complete and utter failure of the police and military shows the world their incompetence.

The poor children. Thats so sad to the whole world. I dont know what else to say...

jimtazem

Posted by: Jerico

Jimtazem
If this tragedy happened in America there would be ACLU lawyers sueing the police for brutality towards terrorist.
They would say you did not give enough time to negotiate with them.
If you think the terrorist would be executed in America you are crazy.
To many liberals to defend them and there religion of peace!

my2 cents
Jerry

Posted by: Menehune

Okay,

I've read all of advices posted. "When in rome" check, "just pay the bribe and be on my way" check, "dress in black to blend in" check.

Now, will someone tell me how to hide my slanty eyes? I am a target no matter where I go. London, Barcelona, Sydney or any non-asian countries, I always get a second glare and more hassle than the white folks. It's why I live in Hawaii, where 70% of us have asian ancestry here. And the good part is we get to slap the haoles around and lynch a few on a blue moon.. lol

I am expecting a bit of trouble when I go to the Ukraine. This is the latest info I got off the US State Dept.

"The Department of State has issued a public announcement that persons of African and Asian descent may be subject to racially motivated harassment, in some cases involving physical attack, from both civilians and police officials."

I've found that when i make a big scene, put my hands in the air and shout "don't shoot, don't kill me, I have no money. HELP! HELP!", even when they don't have a gun, attracts a lot more attention than the corrupt officials wanted. If that doesn't work, fake a heart attack..

Posted by: Brendac9

My sister just went on a medical team trip from the US to Uzbekistan. During there stay they where stopped twice for no reason, by the police in which they had to be paid off. Especially because there where 5 American women in the car. Their bodyguard said this is very common in Uzbek. Very sad. The country is so very poor that they also believe the donations and gifts they brought for the orphanage they visited, where plundered and sold as soon as they left.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Now, will someone tell me how to hide my slanty eyes? I am expecting a bit of trouble when I go to the Ukraine.

Unfortunately, there is racism everywhere. But Ukraine is fairly low key and actually there are quite a few Asians living in Kyiv (I think they're mainly students, although some work there). A friend of mine, who is a Peace Corps Volunteer in Kyiv and who is Chinese America, has told me a bit about what she has encountered in Ukraine. Nothing nasty, mainly just curiousity. Also, according to her, many people refuse to believe that she is really American, because she doesn't "look" American. The police have never stopped her--but maybe being female helps (males in general seem to have more problems).

Rtking is in Ukraine now, you could ask him for his opinions. He hasn't mentioned anything in his travel report about being "targetted" in anyway.