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Russians and Race Relations

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Posted by: dicktiger

What are Russian views on race relations. My friend met and married an American black man. Until then I used to have a certain prejudicial view of blacks. I like honest opinions on this subject.


Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Dick....

Thanks for your post...

You bring up a very good question about Russians and their feelings about race and dating outside of their "race"...

I had heard that there was prejudice against Muslems or Muslem-looking people in Russia. Even though I can look Middle Eastern (I am half Swedish-German and half Persian), I was considered American and experienced no prejudice at all when I was there and while I travelled across Russia on the train...

When I was in Sweden, however, Swedes consider a person to be the nationality of where his or her parents and even grandparents were from. In America, if you have lived in the United States for a while, and especially if you grew up here or speak without an accent, you are considered an American. This is NOT the case in Sweden, and I am NOT sure if the same thinking applies in Russia or not...

How do Russians feel about African-Americans or someone who looks African??

I don't know the answer to this question exactly...

I DO know that when I was in Mogilev, Belarus (A small city of about 450,000 about 4 hours SE of the capital Minsk), I met 3 African refugees who spoke very good English, and apparently also spoke decent Russian, but... they felt unhappy because they were unable to find a job in Mogilev...

I don't know if this was because they were "outsiders" in general, or because they were African??

But, I did not hear from them that they received any racial slurs...

I think that part of the reason that these African refugees had trouble was because the economy is poor in Belarus, and Belarussians would rather give jobs to Belarussians first before giving it to a foreign person.

At least one of the African men had a Belarussian girlfriend, so... perhaps that also is some indication.

I think it would be good to hear from some Russians in this forum about how they feel that Russians deal with race...

Thanks again for your post, Dick...

Khashyar


Posted by: Ekaterina

Russia historically was/is a multinational country that have never had problems with people of different nationalities/races, at least among regular people. I'm not talking about all those political movements made by Communists. I'm talking about the general attitude of an average Russian person. "Different" attitude might be given to a person of a different race -to a black person mostly- only because there are no black people in Russia, with an exclusion of Moscow and St.Petersburg. So the nature of that different attitude would be a curiosity. Nothing else. I am originally from the Russian Far East, and know many examples of Russian women marrying Asian guys.


Posted by: Khashyar

Thanks for your feedback, Ekaterina...

Of course there is prejudice nearly everywhere in the world.

Although the U.S. has been tolerant of other new groups and cultures and immigrants, I think that the U.S. has been more prejudice towards African-Americans and African-looking people than Russia and many other countries.

Russia does not have a history of slavery, and so there was no institutionalized prejudice or mistreatment of African people in Russia like there was in the U.S.

I read somewhere that some Russians have or feel prejudice towards foreigners in general (as of last summer, there was a growing skin-head and nationalist movement in Russia, and even some attacks of foreigners by skinheads).

Perhaps there might be some fear about African-looking people in Russia because, like Ekaterina mentioned, many Russians might feel unfamiliar with African or Black people.

Khashyar


Posted by: Ekaterina

It's a shame that there are such people like skinheads. But the attitude of that group of people is not a "national" thing, it's their age. They are a bunch of teenagers, who can't find anything else to do, but to find an object to expose their rage on. And foreigners are not the only objects of their attacks - other teenagers, just strangers, etc., usually those people who can't defend themselves at some particular situations. So, it's not an indicator of Russian attitude to foreigners.
In June 2001, I spent 2 weeks at a dinosaurs' excavation place in one tiny village in the Russian Far East. There was a group of scientists from Belgium, and we asked them if everything was okay during their trip to Russia, with the people's attitude particularly. And they said, that it was very surprising how Russians treat foreigners. They said that usually, in Europe, people treat natives better then foreigners, and in Russia it's - they treat foreigners much better then they treat their own people.
I have more examples like that one. There are stupid and ignorant people everywhere. As well as there are good and carrying people everywhere, too.


Posted by: Ekaterina

totally agree


Posted by: Vyesna

From my observations I would agree with Aqua mostly. My overall take is that Russian attitudes towards people of other races reminds me of what attitudes probably were in the late 50s and early 60s in the Northern U.S. (conjuecture somewhat on my part as I was not alive then and am basing that conclusion on general cultural knowledge). I think the vast majority of Russians at the very least tolerate people of other races (ie, they don't go around forming lynch mobs or practice similar violence), most are polite to people of other races and ethnicities that they meet and some are very friendly and interested in people of other races. However, I think most (especially over the age of 30) hold and express views generalizing people of other races and ethnicities (including Russian Jews and Jews generally) that most people (but not all) in the U.S. now believe to be essentially racist. Ie, they are always willing to make room for the individual exception, but the rule about people of other races in their minds is more often than not negative. I think these general views are changing some among younger people who have had more exposure to people of other races, look up to rap artists and other black artists, etc., but it's probably still too early for even sociological experts to make strong conclusions about this.

Skinheads are obviously a small group of hooligans and most people do not sanction that sort of violence against anyone, but I don't think most people in the U.S. in the first half of the 20th century approved of mob violence against minorities either, even though I think it is safe to say that general attitudes against minorities then among whites was what we today would find to be racist. So, although the incidents of skinheads are scary, I don't think they say a whole lot about the nature of racism in Russian society. What says more is the fact that the police don't do much to protect victims of skinheads, even as the attacks are happening, and that the police practice racial profiling and outright harassment against people (especially men) suspected of being from the Caucauses on a scale that would make any police commissioner in the States sick, even if he or she believed some racial profiling is necessary to law enforcement. I know there is also a good deal of prejudice in schools, as Aqua pointed out, and when I was a teacher of mostly children in Pushkin, before I really understood Russian well, I was still able to observe that darker skinned and Asian pupils were more often subject to jeering and general harassment from their peers.

In my five years of having some connection to Russian society there and here and learning and speaking Russian, I have heard time and time again stereotypical racist comments from a variety of Russians, young and old, which we would find offensive, even from those married to non-whites. My husband sometimes makes comments I find racist and I work hard at explaining to him why such comments have no basis and why they are offensive and unnecessary. I remember last summer I went for dinner at my friend's house in Petersburg and listened to her mother go on for about an hour about how all the Georgians/Azerbaijanis/Chechens etc. (what some Russians call "our blacks") are the ruin of Russia, controlling all of the markets and robbing good (ie, read white) Russians blind and how they should all be rounded up and sent back to where they came from. I tried to patiently and disspationately point out why her arguments were faulty, taking into consideration she probably hasn't dealt much in her life with people of other cultures and races except in the market. I also pointed out that her daughter's fiance, an American of either Native American or Latino descent (I'm not sure which, didn't ask), was also "dark", but that didn't make him a "bad" person in her eyes, obviously. I also said that being as her daughter was going to be living in California where there is a large Mexican-American population, she needed to get used the idea that her daugher would be living among "darker" people (at which point to my dismay, the daugher, my friend asked-- and where are there no Mexicans?-- well, her attitudes will probably change soon enough after she lives here for a while).

I agree with Aqua that dissatisfaction with the living standard is part of the reason why there is a backlash against foreigners of color and people of color from former Soviet republics-- this sort of scapegoating is part of human nature and certainly Americans are even now just as guilty of it-- think of the Sikhs recently killed because they were wearing turbans after 9/11, amongst other recent incidents. More than that, however, I have come to realize how vital education in the past 30 years has been in gradually modifying the views of white Americans (and other Americans) to reduce the overall human tendency towards racist stereotyping. Some people deride multicultural education and any focus on minority history and culture as "political correctness", but I truly believe it is a positive force in American education, as long as, as with any subject, it is presented in a balanced and factual way. The changes in education introducing black history, Native American history, the civil rights movement and general awareness of the negative aspects of the American past (and to a lesser extent, the present) to students of all backgrounds I think has made the biggest difference in how Americans view race generally, as well as a commitment to diversity in colleges, where many white students become friends with minorities for the first time and find their views towards such minorities to change because of such friendships (and vice versa-- many black students also change their views about whites after attending a diverse college). These students in turn tend to teach their children differently then their parents taught them and in that way society and culture changes for the better.

In Russia and all of Eastern Europe, there is no parallel education or social examination of tolerance, at least none I've heard of and even though racial equality was preached with communism, there was never any attempt to deal with historical European racism that effected Eastern Europe as it did Western Europe and America, or to deal with historical resentments between ethnicities, as there has been in the West. Furthermore, all tenants that went along with communism have been discredited among many Russians, while there is not necessarily a new tolerance message to take its place. For that reason, I get less angry at hearing Russian prejudicial and racist statements than I would at hearing the same from an American, because I know that most Russians lack the multicultural education and exposure we have here and often say things out of ignorance not realizing how offensive and racist they are to us. I think the best solution is to calmly but firmly provide an opposing viewpoint to racist statements made by Russians if you hear them, explaining why racist views are not well supported by fact and also explain that white as well as non-white Americans generally take a dim view of such racist statements.

Many of you may never come across this, either because the Russians you know generally don't say such things (many who have lived here longer or spent a lot of time abroad before do not), but also, I've noticed, because Russians are less likely to say these things in English to a foreigner than they are in Russian to each other (at least in my experience)-- that is, when I've heard them, it's generally been in the context of Russians socializing with each other in Russian and I was taking part in that process as a whole.

I also think Aqua's observation about Russians treating Westerners really well is probably true, and I would add that applies even more to Westerners on short trips to Russsia on which they are clearly spending money. When I lived in the Petersburg area on a good salary for a Russian ($500/month), but what was still close to a Russian lifestyle and dressing more like a Russian than Western tourists (when I'm in St Petersburg, I can point out an American without hearing them usually, just by their clothes, expressions and so on, so you can imagine how much more you stand out to a Russian)-- ie, not going around in a tour with other Westerners dressed in Western clothes and eating in fancy restaurants, I can say that I did not experience the grand treatment so many Western men go on and on about. Certainly I have always been treated to a nice meal when I have been a guest, but the same as other Russian guests, and my students and friends made small presents to me from time to time (as they would to Russian friends and teachers), but I also experienced some negative reaction to being a foreigner as well (usually only after opening my mouth since I'm frequently taken at sight for being Russian for various reasons), although nothing like what Asian and African students, as well as darker skinned Russians have to put up with, obviously, since I'm light-skinned. I guess my point is that, if you are a Western man going to Russia for the first time to meet your prospective fiancee, you are dressed like a Westerner and you are treated really well by her and her family-- I think you can figure out why that is. But you have to keep in mind that you are not, unless you speak the language and/or spend a lot of time there and go out and do things on your own without your fiancee, experiencing Russian society first hand, but rather through a sort of filter and your prospective fiancee is probably buffering you from anything unpleasant as part of her attempt to make a good impression on you. Also, she and her family are presenting their best side to you while you are there, for obvious reasons and part of presenting that best side of themselves is to avoid anything controversial or seemingly political. I don't think this is dishonest or wrong exactly, it is just what is obviously going to happen in that sort of situation. However, this somewhat sterilized experience of Russia and the positive reaction to it it tends to reinforce what may be faulty illusions on both sides-- there has recently been a lot of discussion about this on the Russian women's forum lately and I will shortly post some translated and redacted dialogue that shows the different views expressed.

Personally, I've always really resented the 10 times higher price for foreigners at museums and parks (though I know the fiscal need behind it), especially when I was working there and had the right to the Russian price-- but that's another story and not a serious complaint (I usually get away with Russian prices even now anyway, so I can't complain too much).


Posted by: Ekaterina

I have never experienced anything like that. Certainly I've never lived in European part of Russia, in Moscow or St.Petersburg areas. So I'm not a reall Russian, I guess ….And I certainly can't make any general statements about all Russians.

All that discussion shows me once again, that Americans are "the greatest" "nation" in the world!!! a superpower!!!! full of extremely kind, intelligent, and carrying people !!!! God bless America and nobody else!!!!

Russians are ignorant lazy lying racist alcoholics looking for every opportunity to rob poor Westerners.


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by Ekaterina
I have never experienced anything like that. Certainly I've never lived in European part of Russia, in Moscow or St.Petersburg areas. So I'm not a reall Russian, I guess ….And I certainly can't make any general statements about all Russians.

All that discussion shows me once again, that Americans are "the greatest" "nation" in the world!!! a superpower!!!! full of extremely kind, intelligent, and carrying people !!!! God bless America and nobody else!!!!

Russians are ignorant lazy lying racist alcoholics looking for every opportunity to rob poor Westerners.


Ekaterina, I think you're looking at what I said on the surface and not really thinking about what I was really trying to say-- just because you and your friends do not do or say what I was referring to does not mean that aren't a sizeable number of Russians who do. Also, please refer to what Aqua was saying.

My arguments are based on direct observation and not second-hand information, so anything that I observed was true, except perhaps the police harassment since I didn't really experience that myself, being white-- that I know more about from ex-pat newspapers in Russia (ie, not American, purely, newspapers). And excuse me, some Russians are out looking for what they can get out of Westerners-- I experienced that first hand too (including a negative incident with the police). They are a small minority also, like the skinheads but that doesn't mean that they don't exist, any more than con artists do not exist in the U.S. There are plenty of racists in the U.S. and racism is something we as Americans still have to struggle with, inside all of ourselves. Many Americans think the things I've heard Russians say even though they'd be much less likely to say them. I repeat-- I don't think most Russians treat minorities or think badly of them on an individual basis-- in fact, I haven't really seen that happen in real life. Nevertheless, there is a tendency to hold to racist stereotypes in Russia that have been widely discredited here (though they still exist)-- and many of these stereotypes I have heard, personally, from Russians.

Please do not tell me you've never heard Russians complain about Jews or people from the Caucauses as a cause of social ills, or go on about how all Chechens are Muslim fanatic terrorists (okay, some Americans would also say that about Arabs now). Also, if I'm mistaken about education, please tell me if there's been a serious examination in Russian schools (ie, not on the university level) of pogroms against Jews in the 19th century, deportation of certain ethnicities (such as the Chechens) wholesale to Siberia (yes, most of the people sent to Siberia were Russians, but not simply because they were Russian) as legacies of a racist past that should be recognized as something that was wrong but in many ways sanctioned by society-- in the U.S., there has been such a serious examination from the elementary school level of slavery, segregation and policies against Native Americans as a legacy of a racist past that was sanctioned by society as a whole and should be, if not atoned for, recognized as a tendency never to be repeated (and also, that this was a fault of American society as the whole, not just the government-- ie, all of us are implicated). The only reason we have had that here in the U.S. is because there was a civil rights movement and the people to whom this happened demanded to be heard. Maybe the same will happen in Russia soon, I don't know.

But to further illustrate my point, here are things that I've heard Russians say frequently that personally I think is racist and have not heard from Americans:

"All Jews are cunning [хитрые]"

Comparing black people to monkeys (sorry, but I have heard it, though not often, thank God)

"You can't negotiate with the Chechens-- they're all terrorists"

Also, the sort of view of African-Americans you see in Брат 2, for example, may not seem racist to most Russians but actually does to many Americans and I can guarantee you many African-Americans would find it offensive.

Also, if you still don't believe me, when the archives come back on for the RWA forum, I will give you a link to a discussion about racism where some Russian women living in America and Russia made racist comments (for example, how one woman talked about how she can't stand blacks and her two year old runs screaming away from them, but not from any other type of person).

I personally am very critical of American society on many levels, especially about the remnants of racism and prejudice that still plague American society, much more than your average white American, so I was not in any way trying to boost America's image at the expense of Russia and feel that American society has just as many problems to solve as Russian society does. However, my observations about attitudes towards race in Russia are similar to those the English people who worked with me for a year in Russia made (and they were much more critical than I am, not understanding Russian or socializing with Russians as much), so I think what I found offensive or disturbing is a normal reaction from a Westerner.


Posted by: Ekaterina

ah, almost forgot- russians are also a bunch of stupid pinkos


Posted by: Ekaterina

Thanks a lot Vyesna for such detailed answer.
I guess we will never understand each other fully. You still will be a westerner thinking that you've got all deep reasons of happening things, and I will always be a stupid Russian commy, picking things from the surface.

I really regret that my husband is an American, because I love him very much but I have to stay in that country for now...

Well I guess it's my personal stuff that would bore the crap out of everybody else So let me to shut the hell up and not to bother anybody on that forum again Thanks for your time


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by Ekaterina
ah, almost forgot- russians are also a bunch of stupid pinkos


Well, actually not long ago a Russian woman called me a "commie" for criticizing American foreign policy, so please, think about which school of thought you're trying to lump me into because it's definitely the wrong one.


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by Ekaterina
ah, almost forgot- russians are also a bunch of stupid pinkos


Also, Americans who are likely to say something like that (and I said no such thing) are also more likely to say racist things-- and I am even more critical of them than I am of Russians who say racist things.

I think you are just reacting to the fact that I didn't agree with you totally and say glowing things about Russian attitues towards race. I just stated what I observed-- and I know a lot more about Russia and Russians that most Americans and spend most of my social life with Russians, so it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. My overall view of Russia and Russians is positive, which is more than I can say for a lot of Russians living in America, who are always dumping on Russia and other Russians. You obviously have heard some negative and stupid comments where you live from Americans and I'm sorry for that. Just because some people are like that does not mean that informed Americans cannot criticize Russia or Russians for anything any more than informed Russians cannot criticize America or Americans for anything.

If you want to continue this argument, than let's do it in Russian and see if maybe we can understand each other better in Russian.


Posted by: Ekaterina

Конечно, можно и на русском.
Вот толзко дискуссия наша - не что иное как трата времени, поскольку каждый из нас все равно останется при своем мнении. Я обычно в обыденной жизни предпочитаю не вступать в подобные словесные баталии. Английский у меня хромает, а на русском тут мне изъясняться не скем. Кстати, Ваш русский просто удивительно хорош Мои бедный муженек бьется, да все никак у него дальше алфавита да двух десятков слов не идет Видно, как и я, умом не вышел

По поводу отношения русских р лицам кавказской национальности. Вам когда-нибудь приходилось слышать об отношении сиих граждан к русским женщинам? О десятках изнасилованных в молодых девушках и пр. Я не говорю о тех полу-проститутках (кои были упомянуты выше), а о тех случаях, когда девушку силой заталкивают в проходящую мимо машину, а потом, попользовав, выбрасывают? обвинения в том, что те же самые кавказцы обманывают на базарах тоже небеспочвенны. Отсюда отношение людей. НО! Опять же, отношение невеч, делающих выводы со слов других, и по единичным случаям обо всей нации.

По поводу евреев...вы знаете, в большинстве своем это все несерьезно, и на уровне шуток. Причем даже и не еврей считаются самыми хитрыми, а украинцы. Причем со слов самих же украинцев При этом быть хитрым в русском понимании, совсем не плохо. Это как раз то, чего русским дуракам не хватает, возможно.


С уважением,
Екатерина


Posted by: Vyesna

Quote:
Originally posted by Ekaterina
Конечно, можно и на русском.
Вот толзко дискуссия наша - не что иное как трата времени, поскольку каждый из нас все равно останется при своем мнении. Я обычно в обыденной жизни предпочитаю не вступать в подобные словесные баталии. Английский у меня хромает, а на русском тут мне изъясняться не скем. Кстати, Ваш русский просто удивительно хорош Мои бедный муженек бьется, да все никак у него дальше алфавита да двух десятков слов не идет Видно, как и я, умом не вышел

По поводу отношения русских р лицам кавказской национальности. Вам когда-нибудь приходилось слышать об отношении сиих граждан к русским женщинам? О десятках изнасилованных в молодых девушках и пр. Я не говорю о тех полу-проститутках (кои были упомянуты выше), а о тех случаях, когда девушку силой заталкивают в проходящую мимо машину, а потом, попользовав, выбрасывают? обвинения в том, что те же самые кавказцы обманывают на базарах тоже небеспочвенны. Отсюда отношение людей. НО! Опять же, отношение невеч, делающих выводы со слов других, и по единичным случаям обо всей нации.

По поводу евреев...вы знаете, в большинстве своем это все несерьезно, и на уровне шуток. Причем даже и не еврей считаются самыми хитрыми, а украинцы. Причем со слов самих же украинцев При этом быть хитрым в русском понимании, совсем не плохо. Это как раз то, чего русским дуракам не хватает, возможно.


С уважением,
Екатерина


Ну, так лучше, честно говоря, тепер я понимаю лучше как вы думаете-- я считаю, что наше недоразумение больше из-за того, что у нас разные понятия значения слово "расизм" или "расист". Но это объясню в русском форуме потом, чтобы мужиков тут не обидеться когда увидет на английской странице столько русских букв А пока мне надо работать, хоть бы чуть-чуть доделать сегодня!


Posted by: Khashyar

Hello Tasha, Vyesna, Ekaterina and others...

I think that it is good to discuss the racism that exists in both Russia and the U.S....

Ekaterina... I don't think anyone was calling you a "pinko" or anything like that... I know that there are some Americans who are ignorant of Russian and other cultures, and so they may express those kinds of things.

Speaking about America, different parts of the U.S. have different levels of understanding towards other cultures... When I was living and growing up in SouthWestern Ohio, for example, there were no Asian people or Hispanics, and I remember how exotic it felt to me when I first came to California where there were so many people from Asian and Hispanic backgrounds...

So... depending upon where you live in the U.S. (and I am sure in Russia, also), there will be different levels of acceptance and empathy towards foreigners...

(I need to read this thread more carefully so that I can read more of the specific points that everyone was making)...

Because of the Cold War in the U.S., there certainly were sterotypes and prejudice towards Russia in America. It was the same tactical propaganda that the Russian government also used, I am sure, all of which was based, I believe, in fear of the other country.

I do want to emphasize again that it is good that we can express so many different views here, and our goal is to try to show respect to others for their views and the expression of them, even if we completely disagree with them..... So, we can express whatever views we would like, as long as we respect others in the process...

I am sure that there is prejudice in Russia (just as there is prejudice in the U.S.)...

I have also heard that the far Russian East is more tolerant of a place than other parts of Russia because there is more exposure to different races there (especially the co-existence of Asian and European races)....

Again, I want to read this thread more carefully so that I can respond to more of the specific points that were made...

I am sorry that I did not jump into this thread earlier... I guess I knew that it would take me time to give this thread the attention that it deserved, and I didn't feel that I had time until now to read it thoroughly and respond...

Ekaterina... a side note: I looked at your website (that you listed on your profile), and I noticed that your husband plays in a bluegrass band (I also play bluegrass on guitar and fiddle)... I thought that it was an interesting similarity... You live in either North or South Carolina, right?? How is the general reaction towards Russians there??? In Los Angeles, where I live, since there are so many Russians here, Russians are quite accepted here... But, I imagine in some more rural "All-American" areas, there might be more prejudice or mroe accurately, ignorance, towards Russians and people of other foreign cultures there...

Khashyar


Posted by: lulu

Hi,

I've dug up this old thread because it dealt with a lot of questions on my mind.
I might be going to Russia this summer with a college tour group!I really am excited about the prospects-because I like learning in different cultures and would love to travel around the world. However, the issue of racism has always been somewhat of a worry for me when it comes to traveling.

Before I go on I would like to make a few points.
1. I'm not trying to offend any Russian person on this board. There are obviously racist people all over the globe. I'm am currious about what type of "reaction" I might get while traveling in Russia.

Sorry for the long introduction!

As a I said before, I (hopefully) will be traveling to Russia with a tour group. I am an American, of mixed racial background (Pakistani and Irish/Scottish/German). I appear more Pakistani-and have golden tanned skin coloring.
I also wear a cross around my neck. (obviously I'm Christian). So I probably won't be getting any religious prejudice.

Again, not trying to annoy the native-Russians on this board(although I probably have already). I'm not scared-if I was I wouldn't be considering traveling to Russia. Also I'm with a tour group-not by myself. I am currious on what types of reactions I would get-especially since I can "pass" for being Armenian, or other darker-skinned FSU nationals. We are traveling to both the big cites (Moscow) and to some of the rural villages. Thanks for any replies!

sorry if my above post sounded totally ignorant/offensive!


Posted by: Emetsky

You should be fine for as long as you are with a tour group. Don't worry, I'm sure you'll have lots of fun over there.

Dosvidanja!!!


Posted by: lulu

Thanks for your reply. We might also be getting some time to "explore on our own"-with a buddy of course. I was wondering what kind of reaction I would get in a more informal setting (not a large obvious tour group setting)?


Believe it or not, I'm really excited to visit Russia. I even tried to teach myself some Russian last summer(which I can't seem to grasp at all!).

Again, I just want to know what types of reactions I might be getting from people on the street etc.
Actually I get a lot of reaction from people in the "racially more enlightened" USA. A lot of people (strangers/teachers/friends) ask me what my background is or what my ethnicity is.


Posted by: andrei

Lulu, if you're wearing a cross it doesnt mean we have the same type of religion. Russian Orthodoz crosses look different. But obviously, your cross might help you everytime you'll meet a racist person.

I wont talk much on the subject, I'll just tell you how I feel about different races, and Im just a regular Siberian guy, so you can take my personal opinion as a major thing too.

1. I have nothing against blacks. African Americans psychologically even closer to us than the white Americans, and Russian youth nowadays knows it. On the other hand, most Russian kids think that every Afro American is a rapper.

2. I have nothing against Jews, but I'd prefer not to deal with them in my personal life. Most of Jews I met in my life betrayed me over some materialistic stuff. They're always "money over friends".

3. All those market sellers from Caucasus should be sent back to their mountains and never allowed to come back again. They kill our brothers, they rape our women, they talk bad on our God, they disrespect our elders. Thats why. If you'd only see a footage of a Russian soldier gettin his throat cut while other caucasian swine are smiling and joking about it, you'd agree with me too.

4. White Americans are nice, and everytime I read some of the comments on this forum I smile. White Americans are just big kids.)))

5. Russian Government should treat people from Baltic countries (Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia) the same as they treat Russians - kick them outta their own houses, take their passports from them, make them learn our language by force, never give them no jobs, incarcerate 80 year olds.

6. Chinese bums that invade our Far East should be sent back to where they came from. No disrespect, but we dont need THAT much Chinese people over here. Japanese fishers that kill enormous amounts of Red Book fish in our seas should be incarcerated for life.


Thats all for now. Questions accepted.


Posted by: lulu

Quote:
if you're wearing a cross it doesnt mean we have the same type of religion.


Of course not. Sorry if I came across as an ignorant American-which I suppose I am (although not as ignorant as others).

Thanks for your honest(yet blunt) reply.


Posted by: andrei

Quote:
Originally posted by lulu
Of course not. Sorry if I came across as an ignorant American-which I suppose I am (although not as ignorant as others).

Thanks for your honest(yet blunt) reply.


Sorry for an offending post, I just wanted you to know that anyone will see that your cross is different, but everyone will know you're a Christian, so it will help you in a bad situation.


Posted by: golek

Lulu,

I think if you go to Russia, or anywhere, looking to be offended or expecting to feel discriminated against, you will be. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just go and be open and pleasant with people and I think you will find that people will reciprocate. If someone is rude to you, just move on, why let one ignorant person ruin your trip? Have fun.

I've gone places in the world where I am the only white person and heard whistles and insults coming my way only because I am white. Do I let such events get me down or ruin my trip? Of course not.


Posted by: lulu

Quote:
I think if you go to Russia, or anywhere, looking to be offended or expecting to feel discriminated against, you will be. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.


You are absolutely right.

Actually my bigger concerns are being able to afford the trip and being able to pick up enough basic phrases to be understood in Russian. (I recongnize many of the cyrillic letters, I do however have trouble pronouncing some Russian words). Luckily, the Prof. who is in charge of the trip has been to Russia many times-so I'm sure he can help me if I get in a bind.


Posted by: Emetsky

<
Aloh Andrei! Would it help if I wore an iron cross?


Posted by: andrei

Quote:
Originally posted by Emetsky
<
Aloh Andrei! Would it help if I wore an iron cross?




Add an iron AK47 and you'll be the baddest guy around.


Posted by: lulu

Ha Ha Ha


Posted by: Danika

Quote:
5. Russian Government should treat people from Baltic countries (Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia) the same as they treat Russians - kick them outta their own houses, take their passports from them, make them learn our language by force, never give them no jobs, incarcerate 80 year olds.


WOW, this was HARSH!!! *really really upset*! I wish you wouldnt express so harsh opinions about countries you obviously have never visited yourself, and people you have never met!



I am Latvian, born and raised in Latvia, for the past 1.5 years living in Canada because my husband is a Canadian (we didn't meet through a dating site but I started reading these forums to learn more about the feelings of other women who have married Northamericans).

And what you wrote above is absolute BS, lies and propaganda, I'm sorry to break this to you .... you can't imagine how much it hurts learning about this incredible amount of propaganda about Baltic countries that Russian government has done to influence the minds of its people .


1) Normally all persons who are not citizens of Latvia but have been living there for a considerable amount of time are permanent residents, and in case they are not citizens of Russia, (Ukraine, Buelorus etc), they have so called "Alien's passport" which they use as travel and ID document. AFAIK Baltic countries are the only place in the world that issues any kind of passport to people who didnt even bother to naturalize and become citizens ...

The ONLY difference a permanent resident and a citizen have is unability to vote in elections/referendums, and unability to apply for some specific occupations. That's it!! Same as in most "normal" countries .....

Of course, if someone is unsatisfied with living conditions in Latvia they can leave .... same as they could leave USA if they hate it .... but most dont, because they know very well that living conditions in Latvia, even if much lower than in Western Europe, are still considerably higher than in Russia, Ukraine, Buelorus! I think it is unfair to take all that a country gives you and complain about it .....

2) Citizenship - majority of the permanent residents are legally able to naturalize (become citizens), this process is similar like in USA, Canada and other countries. The person needs to pass a language exam and a history exam ... unfortunately, just a small % of the permanent residents decide to follow this road! Repeat: they CAN do it, but CHOSE not to. Why? I guess everyone has their own reasons. On the government's side, it has done alot to facilitate this process, there are special language classes, etc. I know many young males avoid becoming citizens because they dont want to do compulsory military service that male Latvian citizens are subjected to. IN any case this is THEIR choice. How can someone blame government for their own choice??

3) "kick the outta their houses" - could you elaborate on that please? I dont really understand what do you mean ...

If you meant a family that has not paid rent for many months and even years and has been evicted with a court order (there are many cases) .... this is the same in ANY normal country. No rent payment = leave the apartament. Latvia is a country with a market economy and the country has NO duty to provide people with FREE apartament ... unfortunately some people still live in communism and think it does (both latvians and russians).
Nonpaying tenants are evicted regardless of their nationality and citizenship!

4) "take their passports from them" - what passports? Please elaborate ...

5) "make them learn our language by force".
Ok, example - a Russian goes to live in Germany. The official language in Germany is German, right? Will the Russian have to learn German if he wants to integrate into society, find a better job, eventually become a citizen? Why, of course!!

Can a Turkish immigrant claim that he has a right to not learn German because there is a significant % of Turkish population in Germany? Of course not.

Now - in Latvia the official language is Latvian. Naturally, everyone is expected to learn the language if they want to become citizens of the country, better integrate into the job market etc. Of course people can talk whatever labguage they want at home and with friends, just like in any other country. Why is it normal for Germany to ask immigrants to learn German, but a crime for Latvia to ask immigrants to learn latvian?!?!?!?!?!? Dont you see a serious lack of logic here ..............

I have to admit that during the recent years more and more Russians are sending their kids in Latvian schools and kindergardens, realizing that their future career will be so much easier if they become fluent in Latvian early. Oh, same reason russian immigrants have when they send their kids to american schools

6) "never give them no jobs" - sorry, but this is just too stupid to answer. getting a job only depends on the person ... if someone has no education and talks no Latvian, their chances of finding a job are limited (same as if they were in USA, spoke no english, and had no education). Besides, unemployment rate is rather high in Latvia and chances for finding a well-paid job are low even for people with a university degree and good Latvian and English (jobs are easy to get in Riga tho, but tough in all smaller cities). If you want to be competitive in the job market, learn the skills the market requres ... again, this is just how the market economy works - and Latvia is no longer a semi-socialistic society as many parts of Russia are!

7) about incarcerating 80 year old - I can agree that it's rather silly to put in jail so old people - but MANY countries in the world are persecuting WAR CRIMINALS, and most of them are very old. The case you are talking about was about a war criminal who shot tens of innocent civilians in east of Latvia during WW2 ..... not some nice innocent grampa who got persecuted by the state.


~

Sorry for the lenght and kinda off-topic, everyone else! Please understand that I was really hurt reading so awfully wrong and ignorant comments about my country of origin ... not that my little voice can undo all the harm that Russian govt's propaganda has done to my country, but I had to post this .... sorry again


Posted by: ConnerVT

Andrei’s post does come across a bit harsh and biased, and if it had come from someone else, in a similar circumstance I may also had been offended. But as he’s a young Russian man, I believe it is important not to muzzle or censor him, as he offers a unique perspective that is difficult to find anywhere else. Of course, you also exercised your right to counter his post with your own viewpoint, which is what a discussion forum should afford to everyone.

Whether what Andrei posted is true or not, or even if he fully believes everything he wrote is unimportant. Lulu has a legitimate concern of how his ethnicity may affect his trip. The fact that Andrei posted what he did shows there are some people that hold some or all of these opinions. Just because you are right, doesn’t make you safe. Lulu unfortunately should be considerate of his situation, and not put himself in situations that may cause him difficulties.

Although Russia is racially mixed (after all, it is the largest country (land mass) in the world, spanning two continents), regionally most areas are not diversified. The exception is in the large cities, where people travel to for financial opportunities. But I would not concern myself too much, as you will quickly be identified as an American. Even without the cross. Your clothes, your mannerisms, your face, even the way you carry yourself will give it away.

In this situation, I would be certain to carry my passport, and make sure my visa was registered. In Moscow, they are on terrorist alert, and it is possible that you could be stopped by police to check your documents. Once they see a USA passport, you should have little problem (although it is always wise to keep a 500 Py note in your pocket, just in case ). It is also good to have another person with you, anytime you are in a foreign place. If for no other reason, to have someone with you to argue with on how to get back to your hotel.


Posted by: golek

If you reread his post, I think you'll agree that andrei's rant was more a criticism of the Russian government than a barb at the people of the Baltic countries. I enjoy andrei's occassional posts and the sarcastic sense of humor he shows in them.


Posted by: lulu

Thanks ConnerVT-actually I'm a girl
Lulu is from my middle name of Louise.

I'm going w/ a student group-but we will have at least 3 days or so to do some exploring on our own. Although they said we should always go with a buddy.

While I personally don't agree with everything Andrei said-I am very glad he said it, because everyone has different opinions. I also enjoyed hearing from Danika and her opinion.


The reasons why I asked these questions is that I wanted to emotionally prepare myself for what I might expect, so I really appreciate Andrei's and everyone else's posts and opinions.


Posted by: rtking

As a Chinese American, I was initially a bit put-off by the comments from Andrei. But then, I have to realize that I'm an American first, and ethnically Chinese and I do disagree with the Chinese government's actions.

That said, I applaud Andrei for having the courage to post his insights. I think it's important to have this first-hand information.

The Far East of Russia has always been a battle ground for the Chinese/Mongolians. I know of the Mongol domination of large portions of what is now Russia and the countries that form the 'Stans (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, etc.) But I am unfamiliar with current incursions into Russia by China (or vice versa). I understand that China is beginning to assert its might in the re-acquisition of Hong Kong within the last decade, and it's tenacious grip in trying to proclaim Taiwan as its own. Overall, I'm against the Chinese government and how they enforce their own policy. I think their human rights policy is attrocious.

As for my travels to Russia and Uzbekistan... I have never encountered any racism. I think it may be because I'm much more American than Chinese? I noticed in the Sheremetyevo airport that a Chinese national was treated a little differently than I was. (But I tend to smile a lot and I tried to speak some Russian.) He wasn't treated badly... intead, he was treated just like everyone else was in that customs line. But I got a smile and a little dialog from my customs agent. But then again, I don't look 100% Chinese and even Chinese people ask me what my background is!

Of course, I guess everyone's situation and expriences may be different...

Bob K.


Posted by: ConnerVT

Oops! Sorry Lulu.

I was caught up more in the emotion of the thread, and not the details...


Posted by: Danika

Quote:
I enjoy andrei's occassional posts and the sarcastic sense of humor he shows in them.

I have enjoyed all of his other posts too and the ironic way he writes

I was just saying that before one writes imaginatory faery tales about a country they dont know anything about, they should get their facts right.

How would you feel if I wrote that in USA, Russians are getting kicked out of their apartaments for no reason, their kids are getting harassed in schools because of their enthnicity and they cant complain to the police because if they will, their passports will be taken away from them and they'll be exiled from the country. Now of course that is BS ... but no more than what he wrote about Latvia.

Having an opinion on a matter is great, while presenting false facts as an opinion is not ... it's called defamation in fact.

Lulu -- the truth is that everyone who does not look like a white caucasian WILL get stares on the streets, and needs to be prepared for it (more in smaller cities of course). But it depends how "exotic" you look - people dont mean to be nasty, they just are curious. Unless someone is wearing an outfit like Sikh traditional head garb I dont think they'll be excessively starred at! (people in E-Europe have alot of prejudices towards muslims, they call them "towel-heads"). The truth also is, that in smaller cities, ANYONE (regardless of their blood) who clearly looks like a foreigner (huge smile on the face, wearing shorts & sneakers, big camera on the chest, etc ;p) will get starred on. Anyone wearing a cowboy hat will get starred on more ... haha. But those won't be evil stares, just curiosity.

Besides that small inconveniency, I dont think you have anything to be *afraid* of. If you avoid walking around in the dangerous districts of the cities late at night at such, but this is something that is relevant to anyone, not just foreigners.

But then, I havent been in Russia since years ... my friends who were in Moscow for a conference said they recieved a very welcoming "foreigner" treatment (along with special "foreigner" prices tho, lol!) in their hotel, but the police came in the middle of the night with dogs to pick someone from a nearly hotel room up and it was abit scary ... and that the whole place seemed rather "soviet", what we arent used to see in Latvia anymore. But after all this semi-soviet way of thinking is exactly why westerners like to visit Russia so I'm sure you'll enjoy your visit alot!


Posted by: lulu

Quote:
Oops! Sorry Lulu.


That's okay!


Posted by: andrei

Quote:
Originally posted by Danika
WOW, this was HARSH!!! *really really upset*! I wish you wouldnt express so harsh opinions about countries you obviously have never visited yourself, and people you have never met!



I am Latvian, born and raised in Latvia, for the past 1.5 years living in Canada because my husband is a Canadian (we didn't meet through a dating site but I started reading these forums to learn more about the feelings of other women who have married Northamericans).

And what you wrote above is absolute BS, lies and propaganda, I'm sorry to break this to you .... you can't imagine how much it hurts learning about this incredible amount of propaganda about Baltic countries that Russian government has done to influence the minds of its people .


1) Normally all persons who are not citizens of Latvia but have been living there for a considerable amount of time are permanent residents, and in case they are not citizens of Russia, (Ukraine, Buelorus etc), they have so called "Alien's passport" which they use as travel and ID document. AFAIK Baltic countries are the only place in the world that issues any kind of passport to people who didnt even bother to naturalize and become citizens ...

The ONLY difference a permanent resident and a citizen have is unability to vote in elections/referendums, and unability to apply for some specific occupations. That's it!! Same as in most "normal" countries .....

Of course, if someone is unsatisfied with living conditions in Latvia they can leave .... same as they could leave USA if they hate it .... but most dont, because they know very well that living conditions in Latvia, even if much lower than in Western Europe, are still considerably higher than in Russia, Ukraine, Buelorus! I think it is unfair to take all that a country gives you and complain about it .....

2) Citizenship - majority of the permanent residents are legally able to naturalize (become citizens), this process is similar like in USA, Canada and other countries. The person needs to pass a language exam and a history exam ... unfortunately, just a small % of the permanent residents decide to follow this road! Repeat: they CAN do it, but CHOSE not to. Why? I guess everyone has their own reasons. On the government's side, it has done alot to facilitate this process, there are special language classes, etc. I know many young males avoid becoming citizens because they dont want to do compulsory military service that male Latvian citizens are subjected to. IN any case this is THEIR choice. How can someone blame government for their own choice??

3) "kick the outta their houses" - could you elaborate on that please? I dont really understand what do you mean ...

If you meant a family that has not paid rent for many months and even years and has been evicted with a court order (there are many cases) .... this is the same in ANY normal country. No rent payment = leave the apartament. Latvia is a country with a market economy and the country has NO duty to provide people with FREE apartament ... unfortunately some people still live in communism and think it does (both latvians and russians).
Nonpaying tenants are evicted regardless of their nationality and citizenship!

4) "take their passports from them" - what passports? Please elaborate ...

5) "make them learn our language by force".
Ok, example - a Russian goes to live in Germany. The official language in Germany is German, right? Will the Russian have to learn German if he wants to integrate into society, find a better job, eventually become a citizen? Why, of course!!

Can a Turkish immigrant claim that he has a right to not learn German because there is a significant % of Turkish population in Germany? Of course not.

Now - in Latvia the official language is Latvian. Naturally, everyone is expected to learn the language if they want to become citizens of the country, better integrate into the job market etc. Of course people can talk whatever labguage they want at home and with friends, just like in any other country. Why is it normal for Germany to ask immigrants to learn German, but a crime for Latvia to ask immigrants to learn latvian?!?!?!?!?!? Dont you see a serious lack of logic here ..............

I have to admit that during the recent years more and more Russians are sending their kids in Latvian schools and kindergardens, realizing that their future career will be so much easier if they become fluent in Latvian early. Oh, same reason russian immigrants have when they send their kids to american schools

6) "never give them no jobs" - sorry, but this is just too stupid to answer. getting a job only depends on the person ... if someone has no education and talks no Latvian, their chances of finding a job are limited (same as if they were in USA, spoke no english, and had no education). Besides, unemployment rate is rather high in Latvia and chances for finding a well-paid job are low even for people with a university degree and good Latvian and English (jobs are easy to get in Riga tho, but tough in all smaller cities). If you want to be competitive in the job market, learn the skills the market requres ... again, this is just how the market economy works - and Latvia is no longer a semi-socialistic society as many parts of Russia are!

7) about incarcerating 80 year old - I can agree that it's rather silly to put in jail so old people - but MANY countries in the world are persecuting WAR CRIMINALS, and most of them are very old. The case you are talking about was about a war criminal who shot tens of innocent civilians in east of Latvia during WW2 ..... not some nice innocent grampa who got persecuted by the state.


~

Sorry for the lenght and kinda off-topic, everyone else! Please understand that I was really hurt reading so awfully wrong and ignorant comments about my country of origin ... not that my little voice can undo all the harm that Russian govt's propaganda has done to my country, but I had to post this .... sorry again


Lemme break it down then.

1. A Russian whose family's been living in Latvia for like 50 years gets an Alie's passport just because his surname is Ivanov and not, say, Pauls. He's an ALIEN in his own country, ha!!!! You're killin me.

2. You cant become a citizen of Latvia because you dont know the language. Thats why those people cant be the citizens of their NATIVE country. You're killing me again.

3. A Russian family lives in a small flat in a house that before the WW2 belonged to a Latvian rich man. Now his far greatgandson comes and has 100% right to KICK all the families outta the house, unify their flats and live there. It's YOU who doesnt know the ******* situation.

4.What passports? Soviet passports!!!! They had Soviet passports, you branched off USSR, give them Latvian passports then. Instead they exam them for knowing Latvian language.

5. What's the percentage of Turks in germany? 5%? Bigger? Maybe 10? Well, there are no less than 40% Russians in Latvia. The whole city of Daugavpils is inhabited mostly by Russians. The Government should make Russian the 2nd official language instead of calling Russian people 'invaders'.

6. You dont know Latvian, you get no job. Questions?

7. He had been killing FASCISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY COULD EVEN BE YOUR OWN GRANFATHERS, BUT THEY WERE FASCISTS!!!!!!!!!! A Nazi should be killed!!! Instead they are being honored in that country, they get medals, they go for parades, festivals, and all that. Latvian Government is turning the country into a Nazist country. Even if 50% of what we're told on the TV is lie, something's still wrong in Latvia.


You'll never beat me on this one. I maybe young but I'm no kid.


Posted by: Danika

Andrei, you have never been in Latvia and all you know about it is from TV and rumours. How can you be so ignorant to something you have just heard from TV propaganda? I have never been in Siberia, dont know much about it, and dont try to invent wrong facts about it.

From your post it seems that you are so blinded by your weird hatred towards a country you dont know that I dont think I can change it by explaining how the life really is there .......

Quote:
1. A Russian whose family's been living in Latvia for like 50 years gets an Alie's passport just because his surname is Ivanov and not, say, Pauls. He's an ALIEN in his own country, ha!!!!

He is legally entitled to pass naturalization process and become a citizen. If he is not doing it, it is ONLY his own lazyiness. A surname has nothing to do with it ... if someone has lived 50 (!!!!!!) years in a country and STILL has not learned even moderate level of the language, Im sorry, are you laughing at me?!?!?!? Is this not just plain ignorance towards the country you live in?

Say, I'll live 50 years in Canada (or US), and still wont be able to pass either English or French exam. Will they automatically give me citizenship? Hell NO!!!! Why is then Latvia measured by a doublestandard by some of Russians who live there? Hypocricy it's called...

Quote:
2. You cant become a citizen of Latvia because you dont know the language.

You cant become the citizen of any country (normally) if you dont know the language. Again, double standards ?

Quote:
Thats why those people cant be the citizens of their NATIVE country.

Obviously you dont know Latvia's history. Most of the Russians in Latvia are NOT native, but immigrants (not all of them of course, but most).

After WW1, Latvia became independent and was an independent country from 1818 till 1940, when the Soviet Union occupied it. After the occupation CCCP carried out the process of russification in the newly acquired soviet republics, in the process of which they stimulated moving of many russian families from Russia into these republics, made russian the primary official language etc.

There are a % of Russian families who arrived like in 19th century, etc, but most were moved to Latvia with the Soviet military troops or arrived to Latvia looking for work. Many of them had no problems whatsoever to adapt to the local situation, learn the language and customs, and make a successful life ... part of them, however, didnt bother to learn Latvian even after having lived in Latvia 40-50 years (because during the soviet time many of them were related to high ranked officials within the communist party and could have a very good life without knowing any Latvian).

Now however, since 12 years Latvia has regained its independency, along with its official language, and has all legal rights to ask its citizens to know it ....

Quote:
3. A Russian family lives in a small flat in a house that before the WW2 belonged to a Latvian rich man. Now his far greatgandson comes and has 100% right to KICK all the families outta the house, unify their flats and live there. It's YOU who doesnt know the ******* situation.

I do know the situation (I lived in Latvia for 23 years ....), but I had no idea to what exactly you was referring to in your prev post so couldnt elaborate on it ....

First of all, there have been many cases when tenants had to leave de-nationalized properties - but it has nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with if they were latvians, russians, gypsies, estonians, or from mumbo-yumbo tribe - do not nationalize an issue that is solely related to the fact that they were tenants of de-nationalized properties.

Please also try to understand the principle of private property before you write on this subject ...

Yes, there are many real estates who were returned back to their LAWFUL OWNERS, after they were confiscated (without reimbursement!!) by the soviet government after the occupation. Your reference to "Latvian rich man" is rather silly .... Latvia in the 20-30ies was a booming market economy, richer than Denmark was at that time. and in a market economy people do own houses, businesses, etc - if they have the brain to make the $$$, they can do whatever they want with it!

Then the occupational power came in and just took it all away from them (because communist party didnt believe in private property and wanted to "disptribute all to the people"), exiled the owners to Siberia (around 150 000 people, mainly latvians and local jews, were exiled to Siberia), or made them run into emmigration to the West.

Now their heirs have all legal rights to recieve their ancestor's properties back. And AFAIK the tenants got a mandatory 7 (!!) years period while they could look for a new apartament, in case the owner wanted to use the house for other causes (it is HIS house after alll!!!). There have been problems with denationalization, for sure! but they are not where you are trying to find them.

Btw, do they also show in your TV all those widows/wives of former red Army officers who own great apartaments in Riga and now are renting them to locals for big sums?
And the ethnic russian owners of big companies who are making good profit and have a good life?
Or they just show people who are complaining about something, not those who are using every possibility Latvia can give them and leading a great life?

Quote:
4.What passports? Soviet passports!!!! They had Soviet passports, you branched off USSR, give them Latvian passports then.

well, CCCP kinda collapsed itself in fact (remember the 1991 august puch?), we didnt have to "branch off". Although being an illegally occupied country had all the rights to ...

Please read what I wrote earlier. Everybody who is not citizen of Latvia, nor citizen of another country, recieves Alien's passport, they do have passports, they can use them for travels, etc.

Quote:
5. The Government should make Russian the 2nd official language instead of calling Russian people 'invaders'.

Latvian historically is the language spoken in Latvia by its inhabitants. It is a small language, one of the only 2 remaining alive latviages in the ancient Baltic language group. Only around 2 million people speak it - Latvians have all the rights and reasons to worry about the possibility of extinction of their language and protect it.

Just because now in the result of these 50 years of occupation we have a huge minority it does not remove this right from Latvians.

Quote:
6. You dont know Latvian, you get no job. Questions?

Please do not talk about subjects that you simply DO NOT KNOW. As you said yourself, in some of the cities, like Daugavpils, majority of inhabitants are ethnic russians. Naturally, the employers are russians too, and colleagues. In many places, a person does not NEED to know Latvian to have a well-paid job. In others, they do.

You know, my hairdresser in Latvia was a wonderful russian woman. Her Latvian was very limited (she understood it rather ok, but had problems with talking), and that didnt stop her from working in some of the most prestigious hair salons in Riga, winning multiple hairstyle competitions, etc. Just an example of how everything depends on the person

Quote:
7. He had been killing FASCISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY COULD EVEN BE YOUR OWN GRANFATHERS, BUT THEY WERE FASCISTS!!!!!!!!!! A Nazi should be killed!!! Instead they are being honored in that country, they get medals, they go for parades, festivals, and all that. Latvian Government is turning the country into a Nazist country.


Im sorry but I dont understand which case are you talking about now. When you mentioned an incancerated 80 year old man, I thought you referred to Vassili Kononov, and that guy AFAIK was killing innocent civilians during the war ... seeing the russian ambassador give the guy russian passport on TV was like a SLAP in the face of everyone.... I dont know the details though, since I dont support the search for war criminals myself (all of them are so old they dont even realize what they are being tried for anyway, but many countries are doing it, and do it simply to show the world they dont condone war criminals).

Just FYI, Latvia also tried to recieve extradiction of another war criminal from Australia, an ~80 years old guy (ethnic Latvian!!), who eventually died in Australia just solving his case. Just to show that this again has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism but war crimes ........

Quote:
Even if 50% of what we're told on the TV is lie, something's still wrong in Latvia.

From what I understand now, 99% of what you have heard on TV was a lie :P

Btw my grandfather also spent several years in Siberia because soviet government decided to exile him since he had worked in a "wrong" occupation during the german time. He was incarcerated while his wife was 4 months pregnant ... He was lucky to be able to return alive and see his baby daughter (my mom) for the first time when she was already several years old .... many werent so lucky .... So I feel all this pain that came from the occupation in my family.


Posted by: andrei

Nuff said then, I quit. The only thing you've convinced me in is that you don't have to be rich to have your own big house. And that those people had 7 years to move to another place (closing my eyes on the fact that Latvian Government doesnt give a damn whether they have enuf money 2 move or they dont). All the other facts... well, we're looking at the situation from opposite viewpoints.

And yes, I was talking about Kononov. And yes, Fascists DESERVE a slap in the face.

Gotta say that all the overreaction I exposed today was directed towards your opinion, Danika, but not towards your own self. I respect any woman just for the fact that she is a woman, so I apologize if I happened to hurt you in any way. Peace.


Posted by: scouser1

ok I have sat back and read this thread for the last while with some interest, and I just thought I would add my two cents worth. A little background I am a Canadian of Arab descent who has been to Russia twice, and actually lived in Moscow between 2000 and 2001, and to answer the question are Russians in generally racist, the short answer is NO. As a person of the descent I described above, when I was in Moscow for the most part I felt very comfortable and experienced no racist intolerance at all, the only two exceptions I can think of are being stopped and checked by the militsia (police) on a few occassions and one time in a market where I had to quickly walk by a group of skinhead youths one wearing a t-shirt that sported the words WHITE ARYAN RESISTANCE.

Now as a person of Arab descent I probably feel more nervous crossing the US-Canada border post September 11, than I do travelling in Russia, but thats understandable. The vast majority of Russians are educated, intelligent, warm people who I have nothing but praises to speak of.


Posted by: Emetsky

If you're looking for skin heads, you don't have to go to Russia to meet one. We've got lot's of 'em right here in America.


Posted by: Khashyar

What an exciting thread since the last time that I checked it

I can see that there still are tensions between Latvia and Russia, but... I'm glad that Andrei and Danika in the end could agree to have differing opinions...

Regarding looking "Arab" in Russia and potential prejudice...

I believe that I posted before that although I was born and raised in the U.S., that I could appear to be "Arab" or Greek or Armenian or even Latino....

In my experience, Russian people saw me as American rather than ethnically different... When you speak English and say you are from the U.S., Russians focus on your American background and do not ask about why your skin is tan

This was the opposite of my experience in Sweden when I visited there in 1997...

Even though I spoke English and told many Swedes that I was American, they inquired further about my background because my Swedes would ask me name sounded different and not American to them...

I really didn't experience problems because of my skin color in Russia.....

As Scouser said, I feel more uncomfortable and scrutinized passing through airport security in the U.S. than I did in Russia...

Khashyar


Posted by: Danika

andrei -- indeed, I see me alone is not a warrior against the professional Russian anti-Baltic propaganda machinery, lol - so enough of it :P.

I just find it amazing that you can call a whole nation using a term whose meaning apparently you don't even know ... if you check what "fascist" means, you'll find more "fascistic" exclamations in your own text, and the double-standards of Russia's government. (uh yea, and murdering 9 unarmed civilians (farmers...) in a small village is heroic indeed! because that's exactly what Kononov did, and that's what he gets praised for by Russian govt).

Im not too keen on Latvian government, they are weak and too occupied each with their own personal good instead of the wellbeing of the country ... but heck, at least they don't kill and imprison in concentration camps inhabitants of a distant region of our country under the pretense of "terrorism" and they dont shut down independent journalists so we can actually see different views on the important issues, not just the government's opinion (Putin even admitted (jokingly sorta) in a speech in Columbia university that one cannot talk about limiting the freedom of speech in Russia, because it never existed first of all ... haha).

And hopefully after Latvia joins the European Union next spring, all those who are still living with a hope that communism will soon return, will realize it won't ... and start living instead of complaining.
And Russian govt will have nothing else left to do but to move on with their balto-phobia.

*signs out of this thread*


Posted by: Shane

Quote:
Originally posted by andrei
Lulu, if you're wearing a cross it doesnt mean we have the same type of religion. Russian Orthodoz crosses look different. But obviously, your cross might help you everytime you'll meet a racist person.

I wont talk much on the subject, I'll just tell you how I feel about different races, and Im just a regular Siberian guy, so you can take my personal opinion as a major thing too.

1. I have nothing against blacks. African Americans psychologically even closer to us than the white Americans, and Russian youth nowadays knows it. On the other hand, most Russian kids think that every Afro American is a rapper.

2. I have nothing against Jews, but I'd prefer not to deal with them in my personal life. Most of Jews I met in my life betrayed me over some materialistic stuff. They're always "money over friends".

3. All those market sellers from Caucasus should be sent back to their mountains and never allowed to come back again. They kill our brothers, they rape our women, they talk bad on our God, they disrespect our elders. Thats why. If you'd only see a footage of a Russian soldier gettin his throat cut while other caucasian swine are smiling and joking about it, you'd agree with me too.

4. White Americans are nice, and everytime I read some of the comments on this forum I smile. White Americans are just big kids.)))

5. Russian Government should treat people from Baltic countries (Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia) the same as they treat Russians - kick them outta their own houses, take their passports from them, make them learn our language by force, never give them no jobs, incarcerate 80 year olds.

6. Chinese bums that invade our Far East should be sent back to where they came from. No disrespect, but we dont need THAT much Chinese people over here. Japanese fishers that kill enormous amounts of Red Book fish in our seas should be incarcerated for life.


Thats all for now. Questions accepted.


Now I kinda understand why the world has never been and probably never will be a peaceful place. How can it be, where hatred and prejudice towards races other than your own always abound? Conner, you said Andrei is just a kid and therefore we should forgive him for saying these dumb things. Well, didn't you hear him say:

"everytime I read some of the comments on this forum I smile. White Americans are just big kids.)))"

So, who is just a kid in whose eyes, Conner? I read somewhere that some Russians see foreigners either as evils who should be avoided by all means, or as gullibles who can be easily taken advantage of. Apparently American "big kids" fall into this latter category.

I am not sure, Andrei, whether your father dared to says these words that you said here under the communist iron grip back in the Soviet era. If he did a lifetime in the GULAG might be his destiny (and your family's.) Now of course you enjoy all this freedom of crap, which unfortunately doesn't seem to make you a nicer person than your father. My impression is Russians have a tradition of being radical, whether it be in the political or economic arena, a good example being the "shock therapy" the Yeltsin administration adopted in early 1990s and subsequently failed leaving a disastrous impact on the Russian economy. It is also my impression that Russians seem to be better at destroying things (e.g. overthrew the tsarist rule and then communism some 70 years after almost overnight) than building things. And these two traits are too well ingrained in this young man.

Andrei, you sound like a very cosmopolitan and learned person (and your English is excellent btw), yet you also sound quite narrow-minded. We here believe that only the weak and the cowardly are afraid of competition. I am not sure about the "market sellers from Caucasus", but I do know the Chinese traders in Russia are all very hardworking and just trying to make a better living that they can't get in their home country because there just aren't enough jobs at home as you mentioned in another thread. They meanwhile contribute to the Russian economy by supplying the Russian market with low-quality yet very cheap consumer goods that the average Russians can afford. They certainly don't "kill our brothers, they rape our women, they talk bad on our God, they disrespect our elders." Why then do you hate them so much, Andrei? Are you jealous of others' fortune, or are you just afraid of competing with those who are smarter and more industrious than you?

Now the Japanese. You said "Japanese fishers that kill enormous amounts of Red Book fish in our seas..." I have serious doubt that the Japanese would want to do this unless they are insane, as it didn't seem to do themselves any good. It sounds more like fabrication than fact to me.

All in all, the only people you like are the naive, childish, gullible "big American kids" who will believe everything you say without a second thought. Am I right, Andrei?


Posted by: andrei

Hi first of all

Yeah I'm narrow-minded. Or maybe it's just a habit to always talk radical. If I'd talk more on each subject I think I'd make a lot of exceptions on each point.

First of all, calling Americans big kids is based on the fact that they DO always smile. Americans feel good and look good, like nothing bad happens. If I'd feel like communicating with childish people I wouldnt hang around here. I feel GREAT affection towards a lot of people here. Mostly because they're happy. Like kids. And I wish I would always feel the same instead of putting out the *crap* that made you so angry. After all, I've met a friend here, my first black friend ever. That means a lot.

Chinese immigrants are hard workers. And moreover, they are actually replacing Russian alcoholics on their jobs (sorry for this crooked phrase, my English isnt 100% good). Because they work hard and our drunk dudes don't do sh-t. And that's a fact. But the Chinese Government is already making new geographical maps where our Far East is depicted as Chinese territory. I'd call that invading. Maybe they hope to make those immgrants a majority of population there, I dont know. But I've seen those maps on TV.

And it's people from Caucasus that rape our women, not Chinese. And thats another fact that everybody here can prove, it happens every month.

I gotta admit I was too hard on the Jews. I shouldnt have said that, it was a generalization. A CHILDISH generalization, I gotta say. It was only based on my own experience.

And I guess those Japanese fishers are *insane*, because they DO go fishing in our seas. Our sea patrols' motor boats are not that fast to catch them, they have no money for new motors, boats and all that.

Bottomline, I gotta admit that THAT post doesnt mean that I wont talk to a Chinese or a Japanese, and I hope I've explained that to you. But I'd feel safer if I'd avoid talking to a Caucasus man, thats all.

And I DO like Americans. After all, being a small part of this forum makes me grow up day-by-day.))


Posted by: Peter Burns

My last girlfriend was ethnic russian and came from Latvia - she and her sister had both trained as Police state prosecutors in Moscow .They were both refreshingly open about thier views on matters relating to race and religion .

For example in relation to coloured men they viewed these as the best for sex ( as a white european , I really didnt need to know this ) ie well endowed and in everyway better than the local men . If they were angry with someone , they always referred to the person as a jew - this shocked and annoyed me . I do not know why she was so anti jewish - it was like a visceral hatred and seemed to be something she had absorbed from her previous life in Moscow .
The main difference I guess was that , as they had never seen or known many coloured / black men in thier own country, there was an attraction to black men, but this observation is specific to only one woman .


Posted by: Shane

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Burns
My last girlfriend was ethnic russian and came from Latvia - she and her sister had both trained as Police state prosecutors in Moscow .They were both refreshingly open about thier views on matters relating to race and religion .

For example in relation to coloured men they viewed these as the best for sex ( as a white european , I really didnt need to know this ) ie well endowed and in everyway better than the local men . If they were angry with someone , they always referred to the person as a jew - this shocked and annoyed me . I do not know why she was so anti jewish - it was like a visceral hatred and seemed to be something she had absorbed from her previous life in Moscow .
The main difference I guess was that , as they had never seen or known many coloured / black men in thier own country, there was an attraction to black men, but this observation is specific to only one woman .


First of all, my apology for my tenacious "interest" in this touchy subject. Perhaps this racial relations issue should not have been started as a thread on this forum in the first place, lest it ruin the friendly atmosphere characteristic of this great forum. But since the debates have already been heated to a level as it stands now, I'll continue to contribute my 2cents. Being a free-thinking academic (aka pedant) I hate to stop short of saying all I want to say. So please bear with me...

Like Peter I have had some personal experiences with racial slurs directed toward the Jews, once made by a Russian guy and on another occasion by a Ukrainian gal. I don't need to give you all the details, suffice it to say they were not nice, to say the least. The Russian guy was my good friend and he made his comments at a time when he was with me alone, so that was kinda in a private setting. The Ukrainian gal however did it amongst a group of half a dozen American colleagues. I am not sure if she checked whether there was no Jewish person in the audience. Everyone felt the discomfort at hearing what she had to say, but amazingly no one tried to stop or counter her. Americans did seem tolerant there for better or for worse.

My own observations as well as those of others lead to me believe that Russians' hatred towards the Jews is deeply ingrained in their COLLECTIVE psyche, so much so that you can't just call this whole phenomenon "stereotyping" --- it would be a rare exception that you will run into a non-Jewish Russian person who's not anti-semitic. Back in the Stalin era, there was an Autonomous Jewish Oblast created in the Far East where Jews all over Russia were rounded up and sent to live. That region was not the natural habitat of the Russian Jews; actually the Oblast was previously non-existent. Stalin's reasoning was, since that resource-rich area was likely to fall prey to the Japanese at the time, why not send all those undesirable people (i.e Jews) there and let them survive on their own should the enemy invade. So that was kinda an instutionalized "persecution" (for lack of a better word), although not on a level comparable to Hitler's concentration camps.

When I look at the situation of Jews in today's America, I have to agree that America as a whole has become a very racially tolerant nation. I can offer some evidence here. Al Gore's running mate back in 2000, current US senator Joe Lieberman from CT, is Jewish. Had Gore beat Bush in that race America would have had its first Jewish vice president. Incidentally Lieberman was again running for the democratic presidential nomination in 2004 but he's dropped out by now. Maye Americans are not ready for a Jewish president yet, but who knows 10 years from now. One of the US senators from my state(PA), Arlen Spector is also Jewish. And Dianne Feinstein, US senator from CA is probably Jewish too as her name suggests. (I am not sure on this one, maybe Khashyar can tell us about her.) I don't know about other US senators' ethnicity; anyone with the info please offer it. Also some prominent positions in Bill Clinton's cabinet were held by Jews: Albright(Secretary of State), Cohen(Defense Secretary), Rubin and his successor Summers(Treasury Secretary), and Greespan(current Fed Reserve Chairman) among others. None of the above three states CT, PA and CA have a predominantly Jewish population (actually none of the 50 states does; the Jewish population is something like 3% of the US total.) If a significant portion of the state population were anti-semitic, those Jewish politicians wouldn't stand a chance in a one-man-one-vote free election. And that says a lot about Americans' racial tolerance level today. I am not sure how many Jews have ever been elected to the Russian Duma, aside from those from the Autonomous Jewish Oblast. Maybe Andrei or Ekaterina can tell us about the number.

Again, no offense is meant to anyone on this forum, Jewish, Russian or otherwise. I really should use the term "some Russians" or "some Americans" etc for that matter, instead of the blanket "Russians" or "Americans" etc when I made my statements. So if I forgot to include the word "some" in some places, interpret it as meaning the former.

Anyone out there know Bayesian statistics? Within that methodology, one sets out to draw conclusions about a polulation(not necessarily human population) based on a so-called "prior" distribution (akin to stereotyping). Then as more information becomes available to the investigator, an updating on the prior is done which leads to the so-called "posterior" distribution (akin to Khashyar's notion of "every individual is different.") Hope I have given you the impression that all I was trying to do was a scientific, Bayesian analysis of various social political issues related to the two countries and peoples. Nothing personal. I do apologize if I hurt someone unintentionally by my careless wording. Btw I like the the statistical analysis on the AM-RW age difference issue a link to which was provided somewhere on this forum, a lot.


Posted by: Shane

After so much blasting on my part some appeasing seems in order especially for Andrei. Below is a joke which depicts the great Russian wit. To be honest, I have enormous regards for the Russians' intellectual achievements especially in areas of literature and mathematics. Dostoevski, Tolstoy and Gogol are my favorite, and I know I will never be able to compete with those world-class Russian mathematicians (Kolmogorov, Gelfand, Arnold and many more).

Here goes the joke. Enjoy!


Two drunks are having a few drinks in the park.

“Andrei, can you explain to me, what is logic?”
“Well, Sergei,” the other says after a short pause, “you see those two men walking down the street? One of them is clean, and the other has dirty hands and face. Now, which one of them do you think is going to a banya?”
“I think the dirty one!” Sergei says.
“Correct! He needs a wash; therefore, he’s going to a banya. This is what is called logic.”

The drunks have another drink.
“Okay, Andrei,” Sergei asks again. “Tell me, how would you define dialectic?”
“Well… see those two men walking down the street? One of them is clean, and the other has dirty hands and face. Now, which one of them do you think is going to a banya?”
“Logically, the dirty one.”
“No, you are wrong. The very fact that he is dirty tells us that he is less likely to be seen in a banya. Therefore, the man who is going to the banya is the clean one. This is called dialectic.”

After a few more drinks, Sergei asks Andrei one more question.
“If you are that smart, Andrei, then tell me, what is philosophy?”
“See those two men walking down the street? One of them is clean, and the other has dirty hands and face. Which one of them do you think is going to a banya?”
“I don’t know… Now I’m confused!”
“And that, my friend, is philosophy!”


Posted by: andrei

Another joke of that type, but more explicit.

A kid asks his Dad, "What is a hypothesis and what is a fact?"
"C'mere Son."
Then Dad asks his wife:
'Dear, would you go to bed with another man for one million dollars?'
'I think yes. We're having major money problems, that would help us a lot.'
Then dad asks his daughter.
"Dear, would you go to bed with an unknown man for one million dollars?'
"For damn sure I would. After that I would stop begging you for money and would start my own career."
Then they approach their ol' Grandpa.
"Would you sleep with a man for a million?'
"Yes I would. I'm too old, who cares about me anymore, and that money would help the family and there would be smth left for my funeral."

"See, Son, the hypothesis is, that if hard times come, our relatives might be able to do whatever to help the family."
"And the fact?'
"The fact is that IN OUR OWN HOUSE we have two prostitutes and a goddam queer.'


Posted by: Peter Burns

Andrei ...you made me laugh .

Top award for comedy !!!


Posted by: Shane

Joke #1

A drunkard is standing before a telegraph pole, poking it with his keys. He is trying one key after another, unsuccessfully, when a passerby decides to make some fun of him:
“Nobody home?”
“They must be,” replies the drunkard. “Can’t you see the lights are on upstairs?”

Joke #2

A drunken man quietly enters his house, sneaks into the den, grabs a book, and pretends that he is reading. A few moments later his wife walks in.
“You were drinking again,” she suggests.
“No, I wasn’t!” the man protests. “I have been reading this book all night.”
“Okay, drunkard,” she sighs. “Just put the briefcase down and go to bed!”

Joke #3

Three drunks are crawling along the railroad tracks. "These steps are so steep," says one.
"These handrails are so short," says the second.
"It will be over in a moment, guys," says the third. "I can see the elevator coming."


Posted by: andrei

A guy got up early to go fishing, his pals were supposed to pick him up on a car. Woke up at 6, dressed up, walked out and stood there in the rain like half an hour and nobody came. Now he's back home, quietly shuts the door, undresses and sneaks back to his bed.

His wife wakes up and whispers:
"Rain outside, huh?"
"Damn sure"
"And my stupid husband is now hanging around somewhere fishing"

****

A woman in a sex toys shop:
"Show me that inflatable toy, the artificial woman. Hmmm, do you have an item like that but with bigger thighs?"
"What d'you need that for?"
"I'm gonna put it on me."
"Sorry, but it's designed for other purposes."
"What are you talkin about, you think Im a pervert or something?"

******

A little kid suddenly enters his parents bedroom and sees them having sex.

"Look, these are the people that tell me not to pick boogers!"

*****

(Explicit one, ladies should skip it)

Three men and a female are having group sex. One of the guys starts laughing.
"What are you laughing at?"
"nothing, just a joke that I remembered, I can tell it"
The female takes his penis out her mouth and begs:
"Pleeeze, no cusswords!"


Posted by: Trent

By and large they seem pretty racist, my gf is half african and shes had to deal with that but there seems to be much more anti semitic, anti armenian/kurdish/etc feeling than racism towards people with darker skin (although its certainly there)

Kinda ironic that those discriminated against were pretty much all dissing other groups, with everyone seeming to hate jews and gays.


Posted by: Arnold

Hello everybody!

"The great Shane" has ordered me to write a comment to this thread.

If you are interested, you can read it in the thread on which his orders were given, go to "General Discussions", and look at a thread entitled "Immigration to Amerika".

And please, don't kill the messenger, I am just following orders here.

Best wishes, Arnold


Posted by: rockingsailor

Hello gang! Here is a story I thought I would share with you.
From 1978 until 1993, I was a member of the US Navy and for most of that period, I am sad to say that our primary adversary was of course the Soviet Navy. Times have changed much since then and people asked me since why I didn't do the full 20 or even 30. Well, we no longer needed a 600 warship fleet so obviously, I wasn't needed but that is ok. That is one job I gladly forfeited. It is much better this way!
At the height of our "Cold War", it was part of our job to know Russian ship types and capabilities. Grishka, Sovremeny, Kresta, Krivak, and Udaloy were pounded into my head and I still remember some. Don't ask me what I had for dinner 3 nights ago but I still remember those!
Well, we were in a foreign port, (Non-NATO) and by accident, the port authorities put a FSU cruise liner right across the pier from us and finally, firsthand, I got to visually see the boogeymen whom we were trained for. I was on deck and I ended up locking stares with a well fed fellow on the liner's fantail. He looked like Leonoid Brezhnev's younger brother. He stared at me as fiercely as I stared at him but he won the "stare down" contest. I nodded my head at him and waved my hand. He, on the other hand, nodded his head and waved back almost instantly. I was not expecting this and to tell you the truth, I really did not know what to expect! A subordinate came up to me to inform me my presence was needed below decks. I nodded at the Russian fellow and he nodded back. I was a little disconcerted from the experience but I went below to take care of my duties. Several hours later, I returned to the same spot but the FSU ship moved to another pier much further away! Did I make it do that? Helen of Troy's face launched a thousand ships but I didn't think my ugly mug would make a cruiseliner move! I think now that even cruiseliners had their own "Zampolit" during that period.
So how are things now? Since I was a child, I was fascinated by things "Russian" and I believe it started when I read the book "Nicholas and ALexandra" by Robert Massie. I am sure that most of you have read it and if not, I would recommend it highly!
I have tried to follow everyone's advice here in the forum and it has been very helpful. Just the threads that were written before I even joined have been very beneficial and thanks very much to all.
I am now corresponding to a very special lady in Kyrgystan who happens to be an Economics teacher whose student took first place in an Olympiad. I just sent her flowers for Woman's Day as a surprise and I don't believe she knows I think it exists. (Sorry, Alexei!) I don't want to sell her short however, she is very intelligent as well as beautiful and does not get bored when I speak of history. Football, I haven't tried yet but there is possibility!
I am not sure if this is the proper place to put this story, but here is a formerly prejudiced man who enjoys the Scorpions song called "Wind of Change" very much.

Dosvidonya!


Posted by: curious

i completely agree with andrei regarding what he stated as facts about baltics,caucasians, and chinese. as a matter of fact danika mentioned that Putin fights "terrorism" and "free press", like as if chechens are freedom fighters. I guess danika also considers the women biathlonists snipers from latvia and estonia as heroes... just like the ss veterans. p.s. i wonder if ussr was so anti-latvian, why didnt all those veterans die in the gulags? and population of ethnic russians in latvia was 20% before ww1, which is not so much lower than today. and latvia was independent 1917-1940, yet the other time before it was independent only in the 11th century... So what occupation are you talking about if latvia was a province of russia since 1700's?

As for russian propaganda, here danika is as wrong as about russians supposedly killing innocent civilians in chechnya or in 1940's occupied europe. Russia "lost" the cold war only because of propaganda. Because once gorbachev became our president, suddenly we started seeing on our tv's all those american movies like "back to the future" and "fast times in richmond high" to think that usa was cool. He even filtrated those movies that would make americans look the way they really are. that is movies with rambo, chuck norris, and clint eastwood, if people saw their agenda, they would not consider americans to be friends. i think the best propaganda against usa is to just watch one of those russophobic movies or their tv news. Russian govt betrayed its own people by believing that scum gorbachev. American propaganda is much stronger. Cia would choke if they showed on american tv "ironia sud'bi" or "brilliantovaya ruka" or some other great russian movie. The same way CIA supports all the anti russian propaganda in the east european nations. It is a CIA invention that latvians lived in gulags for 50 years and now that they joined nato they're somehow better than russia. girls in riga and urmalla still prefer to see moscow tourists because they're rich relatively. If you listen to the yankee propaganda you may think that russians and poles are the greatest enemies. in fact, when they come across each other in usa, they're usually the best of friends.

so i dont think americans are kids. they want russians to accept that its normal to have "rappers" and "gays" walking around the city, and they want east europeans to hate us. Of course all the initial rebellions in georgia,chechnya,etc were sponsored by usa, their agenda is take away chunks of russia and to populate siberia with chinese untill there is nothing left. also in another topic some black american says "russian woman would be happy to marry a goat to get into usa"-i guess they're doing russia a favour by trying to take away its best women. we should really smile at those fatsos. and all their wars are won artificially. just think of their help to japan in 1905, then their bombing of japan in 1945, and their war for independence(pure terrorism), and the way they bullied mexico. the only fair fight they had was in 1812 when they got their ass kicked.


Posted by: searcher

Quote:
Originally posted by curious
i completely agree with andrei regarding what he stated as facts about baltics,caucasians, and chinese. as a matter of fact danika mentioned that Putin fights "terrorism" and "free press", like as if chechens are freedom fighters. I guess danika also considers the women biathlonists snipers from latvia and estonia as heroes... just like the ss veterans. p.s. i wonder if ussr was so anti-latvian, why didnt all those veterans die in the gulags? and population of ethnic russians in latvia was 20% before ww1, which is not so much lower than today. and latvia was independent 1917-1940, yet the other time before it was independent only in the 11th century... So what occupation are you talking about if latvia was a province of russia since 1700's?

As for russian propaganda, here danika is as wrong as about russians supposedly killing innocent civilians in chechnya or in 1940's occupied europe. Russia "lost" the cold war only because of propaganda. Because once gorbachev became our president, suddenly we started seeing on our tv's all those american movies like "back to the future" and "fast times in richmond high" to think that usa was cool. He even filtrated those movies that would make americans look the way they really are. that is movies with rambo, chuck norris, and clint eastwood, if people saw their agenda, they would not consider americans to be friends. i think the best propaganda against usa is to just watch one of those russophobic movies or their tv news. Russian govt betrayed its own people by believing that scum gorbachev. American propaganda is much stronger. Cia would choke if they showed on american tv "ironia sud'bi" or "brilliantovaya ruka" or some other great russian movie. The same way CIA supports all the anti russian propaganda in the east european nations. It is a CIA invention that latvians lived in gulags for 50 years and now that they joined nato they're somehow better than russia. girls in riga and urmalla still prefer to see moscow tourists because they're rich relatively. If you listen to the yankee propaganda you may think that russians and poles are the greatest enemies. in fact, when they come across each other in usa, they're usually the best of friends.

so i dont think americans are kids. they want russians to accept that its normal to have "rappers" and "gays" walking around the city, and they want east europeans to hate us. Of course all the initial rebellions in georgia,chechnya,etc were sponsored by usa, their agenda is take away chunks of russia and to populate siberia with chinese untill there is nothing left. also in another topic some black american says "russian woman would be happy to marry a goat to get into usa"-i guess they're doing russia a favour by trying to take away its best women. we should really smile at those fatsos. and all their wars are won artificially. just think of their help to japan in 1905, then their bombing of japan in 1945, and their war for independence(pure terrorism), and the way they bullied mexico. the only fair fight they had was in 1812 when they got their ass kicked.


1) How old are you?

2) Where do you live now and how long have you lived there?

3) BOY! Do you have some ideas, stereotypes and just WRONG perceptions! To a certain extent, a very small extent, you are partially correct. You are correct about the movies but that is Hollywood not the CIA. Hollywood has often been persecuted by the U.S. government (See the McCarthy hearings, etc...). Also, Hollywood has often been anti-government.

Hollywood make movies that they think will make lots of money for them. Those movies you mentioned were very successful but guess what.........

THEY'RE MOVIES AND NOBODY TOOK THEM SERIOUSLY. THEY'RE JUST ENTERTAINMENT AND NOTHING MORE.

YOU DID NOT SEE SCORES OF AMERICANS LEAVING THEATRES WITH ANTI-SOVIET/RUSSIAN THOUGHTS IN THEIR HEADS OR CHANTING ANTI-SOVIET/RUSSIAN SLOGANS.

IT JUST WAS NOT THAT SERIOUS. ITS A MOVIE, SOMETHING TO PASS THE TIME. FANTASY AND NOTHING MORE.

UNDERSTAND!

God! What planet did you come from?????


You seem as if you are a very young person who has not been in this country for no more than 10 years, if that much, and you seem to have the view point of someone who has not lived here. You might live here but not for any great length of time.


Posted by: Jill

Quote:
From Russia With Hate

By YURI ZARAKHOVICH | ST. PETERSBURG

Sunday, Aug. 01, 2004

When Katya Girenko answered the door of her family's rundown St. Petersburg apartment early one Saturday morning in mid-June, she saw two teenagers through the peephole. They asked if they could speak to her father, Nikolai Mikhailovich. When he went to the door and asked what they wanted, a gunshot rang out. The bullet smashed through the flimsy door and ripped into Girenko's chest, killing him almost instantly.

At first glance, Girenko might seem an unlikely target for assassination. A tall, somewhat fragile 64-year-old with a bushy gray beard, he was an ethnographer and anthropologist who earned his reputation as an academic specializing in Swahili studies and research on kinship. But he was also the leading expert on an indigenous Russian tribe — the country's growing band of neo-Nazis. As founder of the Group for the Rights of Ethnic Minorities (GPEM), Girenko had been a key adviser in 15 Russian ethnic hate-crime trials, including the current prosecution of six members of the St. Petersburg neo-Nazi group Sc