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What are RW/FSU Women seeking when looking for foreign husbands
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Posted by: searcher

Alright, time to stir the pot and ask more thought provoking questions.

Here are some thoughts from what i've heard from women on the internet and from some conversations i've had with some women.

While I do not consider many FSU women desperate, it is true to a certain extent that many seek to better their lives without regard as to who they may hurt.

Better their lives in what regard? Well in many ways - finding a husband, having a better life, better opportunities, etc...

Those who are honest seek a husband they can love.

Not all women in the FSU are poor, many live well and have good jobs. While some may be poor but they are looking for a true love hoping that their lives will be better with their husband.

Often many FSU women are stereotyped as being desperate to leave their countries. This is not entirely true but some women do seek to improve their lifestyle or living conditions at all cost, they are a small percentage.

Many of these women are also looking for a husband. The honest women look for a husband they are actually interested in (this is the majority) while there are a few "scammers". Yes, they do exist but not in the proportions one would believe by listening to the sensationalist media.

I am curious as to what motivated many women to seek a foreign husband. What were the primary reasons? What was the most influential reason?

Do you know or know of any women whose only motivation was their perceived financial/life style gain?

What are your thoughts? What motivates all of us, those seeking foreign husbands and those seeking foreign wives?

Everyones thoughts are welcome. Lets hear them!!!

Posted by: ulughbek

A great topic for discussion.

I can only talk about my fiancee's perspective, and a little of what I have heard about her friends' thoughts. So it is mostly about Uzbekistan, although I imagine it would apply to a lot of areas in the FSU, but probably not a place like Moscow or St. Petersburg.

But I will talk in general terms -- creating a composite picture of some of the things I have heard about to protect the innocent

. I think that the women looking abroad have something that makes them dissatisfied with their local options. This could be something in their personal history that has opened their eyes to other possibilities in life. It could be bad experiences with local men. It could be a general desire to improve their lives, but for many this can be accomplished without actually leaving the FSU and enduring all the culture shock and distance from home. In some cases, pressure might come from their families to find a husband who can "improve their station". Or a combination of all these.

A lot of women are willing to entertain the possibility of meeting a "mysterious stranger" who will whisk them away, but they probably see it as a long shot. They might be willing to sign up with an agency, or meet with people, just to take that chance, but few can "plan" on leaving.

They are probably skeptical of most men they meet this way -- either of their present intentions or their ability to be a long-term partner, and will be cautious for quite a while.

And most of them are decent women who are looking for real love, and have their own standards about attractiveness and personality. After all, they are going to have to live with their choice (and next to them) for a while! Your age, appearance, charm, kindness, and other factors are going to be taken into account and evaluated on a sliding scale. I certainly have heard about it when I look "a little bit fat" in a photo!

I don't think money is evaluated in the same way by the decent women. You should of course be employed, reasonably stable, and able to support her at a basic level. But once you cross that threshold, more money will not impress her very much.

The money thing is like a "yes/no" decision, but everything else is much more flexible, if you have positives to outweigh the negatives. You will not be rejected for being one inch too short or one year too old.

I don't know of anyone who sought only financial gain. I have heard a few stories about men who were rejected because of their appearance or behavior though.

Another thought - it makes sense that age is less of an issue in Russian/Western relationships. Of course there are always issues of being comparable in maturity, life experience, number of gray hairs, etc. But in a relationship within your local culture, there is an expectation (and probably too much emphasis placed on) that you will have listened to the same music, watched the same movies, etc. while growing up. That will never be true in these relationships, so it becomes less of a problem if you are personally compatible.

Posted by: searcher

Very good!

I'll explain what made me post this topic.

I have had a few conversations with RW over the past few months. E.g.- my lady, my translator, others, etc...

I had heard some interesting stories. For example my lady has a friend who desperately wants to meet a western man. My lady has tried to talk some sense into her and has finally given up.

Her friend has some unrealistic ideas of life in the western world and she has tried to tell her this.

Her friend has a Russian boyfriend and is quite content with him but she thinks she can find a "rich" westerner and have a wonderful life! *LOL*

While out of town visiting St. Pete, she met an attorney from Los Angeles. He told her many stories about his government job (red flag) how he made a lot of money (red flag) and how he was going to have a nice house built on an island (BIG red flag).

She bought it!!!!!!!!! *LOL*

So she was teasing my lady about how she found this rich guy

Of course has been around and is well travelled. She knew better than to believe all of that..... as a result she is tried of hearing from her and has stopped talking to her.

She says her friend (maybe former friend) is only interested in money and that she is deceptive. She also deceived this guy. She didn't tell him about her excessive drinking or her chain smoking

I said, well it looks like these two were made for each other

I know about her friend because I met her while I was there and BOY does she smoke and drink. I could see that it was becoming a bit annoying to and Andrei.

I don't believe most women are like this, of course, many know better than to believe what they see on television and know its just fantasy.....

Well at least most do

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Do you know or know of any women whose only motivation was their perceived financial/life style gain?

Yes, and quite a few. As I am American, women here have sometimes contacted me asking if I can help them find a husband in the US. And their only requirement is that he have money (age, looks, personality, intellegence--zero). Now, these aren't what are usually called scammers as they weren't looking for someone to Western Union them money and then to disappear. On the contrary, they were quite sincere in their intent to marry. But first you gotta show them the money. Needless to say, I have declined their requests for assistnace in this matter.

BUT! I do want to point out that this is not all FSU women. Some are simply looking for a kind, caring man and actually don't care about his nationality--if he is American, fine; if he's European, fine; if he's Russian, fine. But the eligible bachelor pool in Russia is relatively small as there are simply more women than men and people tend to marry young. So a woman 30, 35 years old has fairly limited chances of finding a husband (although that's true in the US, as well--the older a woman gets the lower her chances are for marriage).

I think most women looking for a foreign husband are really just looking for any good husband. They just decided to expand their search to a larger geographical area in order to increase their chances. And if he happens to be in a position to provide her with a better lifestyle, all the better

But as I pointed out in the beginning of the post, there are certainly more than a few golddiggers out there.

I recall a discussion I read on another forum (a Ukrainian forum mostly frequented by women who discuss various realtionship problems, etc). Anyway, a woman there posted that she had a wonderful, loving husband who adores her, helps her around the house, and has a rather good income by Ukrainian standards. She didn't have a bad word to say about him--only praise and she did say that she loved him. However, she has just always had this dream of living in America--since shildhood, she's dreamed of this. Well, recently she met an American man who came to Kiev on business. She went on a few dates with him and, now that he is back in the US, she continues to correspond with him. He is of course unaware that she is married. Anyway, now he has invited her to apply for a K-1 visa and to come to the US. Her question to the forum was: should she leave her wonderful, caring husband for a man she barely knows so that she can realize her dream of living in America. And, you know, the response was split about even, for and against. I don't know which man I feel more sorry for

That should also make you think.

Posted by: searcher

Wow!

...yet that doesn't suprise me either!

I think in some cases it is related to poverty...

I don't want to perpetuate any stereotypes as I have met some very nice Ukrainians but I think perhaps it may be related to the poverty present there. It may be more severe than in other FSU countries... yes, no?????

I would feel sorry for both men!

Why? Because you have one man who is very caring and love his wife. A woman who he believes fells the same for him as he feels for her, yet this is not so!!!!!

As for the other man, I would feel sorry for him because she is living a lie. She is not yet divorced. If he had known this then that would not be an issue but the fact that she hide this makes it part of the problem. She has dreams of grandeur yet she has no clue as to how life really is here. When she sees how things really are here, she may be greatly disappointed!!!

What does she do then???? Move on to the next victim, er, man!

Sometimes we are not thankful for what we have until we lose it!!!!!

Sometimes we don't realize that what we have isn't bad at all.

It reminds me of the saying/story that I heard,

"I once complained because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet!"

Sometimes what we have isn't bad at all, if we look around us we can always find someone who is doing much worse than we are.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

I think in some cases it is related to poverty...

I also think that poverty has a lot to do with it (i.e. the desire to marry a foreign men) . It might not be so bad in large cities (Moscow, Kiev, etc) but when you get out into the smaller towns, and especially villages, the poverty is overwhelming. The desparation it breeds is one of the reasons that some women there fall prey to traffickers and end up enslaved in brothels somewhere in Europe or the Middle East. Certainly there are people just looking for a way out. And really who can blame them? I certainly don't judge them for this as long as they procede in an ethical manner (meaning not using a man just for money of a green card when she really has no other interest in him).

Quote:

I would feel sorry for both men!

I do, too. They are BOTH being used and deceived by someone they care about.

Quote:

"I once complained because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet!"

That's an excellent reminder to everyone, Searcher. It is so true.

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
[B] And really who can blame them? I certainly don't judge them for this as long as they procede in an ethical manner (meaning not using a man just for money of a green card when she really has no other interest in him).

I agree. It is fine if they are looking for someone that they really are interested in and care about.

Now, that raises another question! I heard that many women simply go with the first man that comes along that hey are "interested in" but they may not "love" him. Their thoughts are they eventually will grow to love this person.

Is this a correct way to become involved in a relationship?

It can happen and it does happen but it is very risky indeed.

I wonder how many women do this. I have asked in the moderators forum if it is possible to set up an poll which can be taken anonymously.

I would be interested to see the results if many women were invited and could take the poll without their identity being know.

Of course, it is not scientific but perhaps it could give some insight....

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

You know, this does happen. It actually goes way back into history when marriages were arranged by parents and/or a matchmaker. The bride and groom generally barely knew each other, but were told that they would learn to love one another (or at least grow to respsct each other). And that mentality does still exist among some people in the FSU--not just where international marriages are concerned, but about marriage in general. I know FSU women who married FSU men whom they were not in love with--it was convenient, the guy was decent enough, they didn't want to become an old maid, and they figured with time, things would get better. There's a saying "sterpitsya, sliubitsya" which basically means if you put up with each other long enough, eventually you'll start to love each other. So, yes, I think--in fact I KNOW--that this happens sometimes.

And to some degree it may be hard to avoid in international marriages simply because of the way the K-1 process is set up. What often happens is a guy corresponds with a woman for some period of time. He decides to visit her--he goes for maybe a week or two, depending on how much time he can take off work. Thnigs go well and they decide to pursue the realtionship. She can't travel to the US on a tourist visa, he can't afford any more time off work to visit her, so they decide to go ahead with the K-1. She gets to the US and they have 90 days to marry.

OK, this is enough time to find out whether you like someone or not. In some cases, it maybe even be enough time to decide if you love someone. But I think in many cases, people rush into the marriage before they REALLY know if they the love the person, or if they are compatible. They just hope for the best. Unfortunately, you can read many stories on Russian Woman Abroad where this scenario ends very sadly for both the man and the woman.

Actually, it would be interesting to get Aqua's opinions here. I know she has addressed this issue on other threads and has made some good observations.

Posted by: Eryk

Quote:

Originally posted by searcher
"love" him. Their thoughts are they eventually will grow to love this person.

Is this a correct way to become involved in a relationship?

It is in much of the Islamic world and also in traditional Hindu culture. It would be completely false to suggest that all such 'arranged' partnerships lead to misery and failure so it is clearly a workable approach if you either get past or do not have western preconceptions of 'romance' being the only possible basis for establishing a partnership.

One could argue that 'romantic love' is a shocking basis for starting a relationship that may well lead to children (who need stability) since it is fickle and should one partner start to feel differently there is usually nothing the other partner can do to remedy the situation. If, on the other hand, a girl marries you based on your IQ and career prospects etc. and sticks to those criteria then you know exactly what you have to do to hold up your end of the bargain.

Eryk

Posted by: ulughbek

Jill's story about the married woman is very interesting. I feel that I may be coming across as naive by emphasing the pickiness of the women, non-importance of money, etc. I don't deny the existence of the scammers and the gold diggers (or the sex tourists). They are out there looking too, and you can certainly read lots of them on the boards. But I am thinking more about the relationships that actually end in marriage. I think that most of the horror stories are detected before marriage, and that most of the successfully married women are more discriminating than first impressions might indicate. A poor village girl who is desperate to get out will probably attract a similarly desperate man. And maybe that is better than falling victim to a sex trafficker?

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
And to some degree it may be hard to avoid in international marriages simply because of the way the K-1 process is set up. What often happens is a guy corresponds with a woman for some period of time. He decides to visit her--he goes for maybe a week or two, depending on how much time he can take off work. Thnigs go well and they decide to pursue the realtionship. She can't travel to the US on a tourist visa, he can't afford any more time off work to visit her, so they decide to go ahead with the K-1. She gets to the US and they have 90 days to marry.

Very good point, this is my delimma now!

I am trying to see if there is a way I visit her again but we plan to start the K-1 process sometime soon. We have waited but for other reasons I won't discuss here.

We both have very strong feelings towards each other, we knew that before we met, it just confirmed that. Every day we seem to be addressing important issues because we realize the possible problems that can arise and we both have acknowledged that if further visits aren't possible we will both have to be mature and work hard to make this relationship work.

"Attraction" and "Love" are not the issue in our case but rather having time to get to know each other better. I have been very up front with her about my short comings and she has done the same.

I believe everything will be fine but as you can see the distance can impose some problems!

Time, work, distance and money.

I think it takes a certain level of maturity for any relationship to work and even more so in these relationships especially under these circumstances.

edited because I make stupid typos!

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

this is my delimma now!

Well, on an optimistic note: I read somewhere that statistically international marriages have a lower divorce rate than domestic marriages. So it's not all doom and gloom

Posted by: ulughbek

Good luck, searcher!

Slightly off topic, but I would advise you to visit again if at all possible. For lots of rational reasons, my fiancee and I decided not to have another visit between my trip last summer and this July. Up to six months of waiting is hard, but it feels "normal" somehow. You will be busy with planning the future, building up the relationship, etc. But anything longer than that and you will start to get a little bit crazy from all of the waiting!

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by ulughbek
Good luck, searcher!

Slightly off topic, but I would advise you to visit again if at all possible. For lots of rational reasons, my fiancee and I decided not to have another visit between my trip last summer and this July. Up to six months of waiting is hard, but it feels "normal" somehow. You will be busy with planning the future, building up the relationship, etc. But anything longer than that and you will start to get a little bit crazy from all of the waiting!

Too late!!!!

Posted by: Keystone

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ulughbek
Good luck, searcher!

Up to six months of waiting is hard, but it feels "normal" somehow. You will be busy with planning the future, building up the relationship, etc. But anything longer than that and you will start to get a little bit crazy from all of the waiting!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

searcher quote
Too late!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

How true I am going insane!!!

I made it only 5 months going back in 11 days.

Keystone

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
the eligible bachelor pool in Russia is relatively small as there are simply more women than men and people tend to marry young. So a woman 30, 35 years old has fairly limited chances of finding a husband (although that's true in the US, as well--the older a woman gets the lower her chances are for marriage).

I think most women looking for a foreign husband are really just looking for any good husband. They just decided to expand their search to a larger geographical area in order to increase their chances. And if he happens to be in a position to provide her with a better lifestyle, all the better

But as I pointed out in the beginning of the post, there are certainly more than a few golddiggers out there.

OK, now we touch upon another subject again.

I know it may not always be the case but you often hear FSU women complain that "the men are no good", etc.

I think, putting things in proper perspective, that its not that the men are no good but rather the AVAILABLE men that are left OFTEN are not a good choice, after a certain age.

I believe this is really what is meant when we hear these statements.

So, now I must ask what qualities do these women desire?

What are the bad qualities they see in the men at home? What do they want and what don't they want?

I think we all generally know but I want so more details, some specifics.

What is it that ultimately causes a woman to decide to look abroad?

Now, I know there are probably many reasons for this - some good, some bad - lets hear the most influential reasons for their decision?

Posted by: Keystone

After asking how she picked me. She said that I had a kind face. She did not read my profile. The most important thing she said was that I responded to her letter. That was 8 May 2003 and hundreds of letter later. I should buy stock in the agency we use.

And yes I got the "no good men speech"

Also she is 35 and may think as Jill stated that I might be her only chance now. If this is true I will make it her best chance too.

Keystone

Posted by: Eryk

Quote:

Originally posted by searcher
So, now I must ask what qualities do these women desire?

What are the bad qualities they see in the men at home? What do they want and what don't they want?

'Without bad habits'. This is almost always code for 'not a useless drunken bum'. Alcoholism whether the 'addicted' kind or simply habitual heavy drinking is much more common over there than in the west. Spend a month in a typical apartment block and you'll get used to stepping over the comatose bodies in the corridor in periodically.

'Financially stable'. Code for 'able to hold down a job'. Closely linked to the point above since booze is the no. 1 reason for not being able to maintain gainful employment. Those guys in the corridor I mentioned usually bought the vodka with money their wife earned.

'Well balanced/Counterbalanced'. Not prone to outbursts of bad temper and/or violence. See point 'one' again of course.

'Intelligent'. Honest and of good character. Given the economic realities over there the likelyhood of a man being mixed up in some petty criminal enterprise is a lot greater than here. There is also more 'personal' morality ...Russian men have a culture of going out socialising alone and the company may not always be entirely 'male'.

...not a comprehensive list of course, but some of the more common points.

Eryk

Posted by: ulughbek

Even if the men do not have some of the character flaws mentioned, they might be influenced by the environment created by the excess of women. Knowing that it is easy to find someone can make people lazy about investing energy into a relationship. An independent-minded, intelligent woman can be seen as too demanding for the men (even the ones that are not unemployed, alcoholic cheaters). So I would say that the women are looking for men who will show that they are devoted, caring, etc.

Posted by: D in KS

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ulughbek [ An independent-minded, intelligent woman can be seen as too demanding for the men (even the ones that are not unemployed, alcoholic cheaters). So I would say that the women are looking for men who will show that they are devoted, caring, etc).............................................. ............................................ The same can be said for the situation in the US. There are many women here who are looking for devoted, caring, honest men. And we are not all fat, lazy, *****y, slobs as we are often painted to be

It seems all the men we are looking for, are looking elsewhere for partners

There will always be women, anywhere in the world, who are only looking to upgrade their lifestyle, money, status etc and willing to do whatever it takes to get those things. And then their are women who are more interested in a loving, caring, devoted man, for a lifetime. I still believe women and men are basically the same all over the world. You just have to be strong enough to keeping looking for who or "what" you want. Debbie

Posted by: Jutman

Hi

Yes, some does it for money.

BUT from my experience and what I an understand from various sites at the net, is that well educated/dping it will women is over represensated at the international dating arena. So why are they looking, because the numbers of 'good' Russian men are very, very low.

This is also the case with my GF. Recently my soon family 'in-laws' and GF was downtown to celebrite a national holiday, my 'mom-in-law' say to my GF: "Now I can understand wht you must look abroad to find a man" after seing drunks, old men with younger girls.

It also makes sense, that its clever ladies who have the energy to look abroad.
I have seen at TV or read, several cases where the girl (typical from Sct.Pete or Moscow) actually went down in living conditions, but love was more important, even in a foriegn country.

A issue I have noticed is also the ability to use the net, a cell phone is important. Like the two big cities (mention above) only represent 11% of Russian population, but take a loook at a agency. its substantiale more.
If we increase it, there very few ladies at the net from cities with less than 200000 citizen, maybe with few exception, like bridal cities: Yoskar-Ola, Lugansk.
Why: because these cities has hardly a university, internet and money to do it.
And the few other ladies I have encountered at the net from my ladies town, who wants to leave Russia is from the central of city. Because at the suburbs, they don't have the knwoledge and ressouces to contact an agency.

This is considered a problem for Russia, that 10000 girls every year leaves Russia, especially when most of them is well-educated or ressoucefull. (Russias population decrease every year, between 250000 to 750000 a year )

The 10000 are girls are thoes who got married, of which around 4000 goes to USA. But there is also the girls who leave Russia for work. Unfortunately often into prositution, but thats another story.

Posted by: Jill

Yes, I am sick of this "no good men" line. It's a load of hogwash. As I've mentioned elsewhere I've only lived here for a few years and yet somehow I've managed to meet dozens of wonderful men (both single and married). How is it that a woman who has lived here her whole life has never met any? It's impossible. There are plenty of good men in the FSU. Yes, more men than women tend to be alcoholics, criminals, etc., but this is true in every country. On another thread (the one the Mria started) we noticed an interesting phenomenon. Eryk pointed out how many single women in their 30s (and above) in the West also often complain about the fact that there are "no good men left." So where exactly ARE the good men?

Quote:

I think, putting things in proper perspective, that its not that the men are no good but rather the AVAILABLE men that are left OFTEN are not a good choice, after a certain age.

I think this may be a more accurate statement. But again, it seems true sometimes in the US as well. Although I can see how it might be worse in the FSU just because there are fewer men period (what is it? 88 men for every 100 women?). So there ARE good men, but there are FEWER men. Maybe that's what the issue is.

Anyway, here's something interesting I found. I saw this in the employment section of a local English language newspaper:

Quote:

EXECUTIVE SERVICES OF UKRAINE
Will be hosting a Recruitment event/party on
May the 8th 2004 in Kiev. This event is for you
if you are a woman from 18 to 38. There will be
no men at this event other than our security and
staff. Top quality food and beverages will be
served. The event will take place at 25A
Turgenevskaya St., Kiev, �Expocenter�.
THIS EVENT IS FOR YOU�
If you are looking to marry a foreign man
if you want just to date foreign men
if you want foreign men to take you places, buy
you things and spend money on you
if you are tired of agencies making all the
money off you, your photos and your profile
if you want free high speed DCL internet
access
if you want free translation service
if you want free English lessons
if you want free model, make-up and fashion
classes
if you want to be a guide, escort or translator
if you want discounts with area shops,
restaurants and services
if you want better socials
if you want access to parties, picnics, cruises
and social events
if you want to meet more men and a better
class of men then any one else can provide
if you want access to trips around the world for
0 to 10 grn., free international voice-mail,
access to international video conferencing
if you want to be affiliated with a company that
deals with, is responsible for and takes care
of executives around the world
if you are tired of agencies with dark, dirty, ugly
offices that you are ashamed to be seen at
Unlike girls at other agencies our girls are
proud to be affiliated with ESU
If this is still not enough there will be a random
drawing for 1500 grn, a color TV set, and a 35
mm camera.
Call or ask questions
Tel: XX XXX XXXX

So they make it all sound very attractive. Hell, I almost answered the ad

So I'm sure there are FSU women who just fall into this by chance--who maybe never thought about marrying a western man, but then they see an ad like this....

Actually, after re-reading this ad, I think maybe I should have posted it in the "Sex Tourist" discussion

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by Jill
Yes, I am SO SICK of this "no good men" line. It's a load of hogwash

On another thread (the one the Mria started) we noticed an interesting phenomenon. Eryk pointed out how many single women in their 30s (and above) in the West also often complain about the fact that there are "no good men left." So where exactly ARE the good men?

I think this may be a more accurate statement. But again, it seems just about as true in the US as in the FSU.

Well, I see you point and I partially agree but consider too that they are more women there than men.

I also think it may depend upon the circumstances in a particular city or region.

For example, I think (this is my observations nothing scientific) Moscow may be more balanced than some of the other cities. I think applies to the big cities in general as they attract lots of people.

So where are the good men you ask????

Looking I guess and not always meeting the good women.... at least not always locally....

Its a good question really, it just as many men ask where are the good women.

I think we all are often frustrated by our many disappointments and the problems we've had along the way.......

So, many have chosen to expand their search to other places - some near and some remote.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

ell, I see you point and I partially agree but consider too that they are more women there than men.

Absolutely. I think you posted your reply right as I was editing my original post in order to acknowledge that fact. It IS an important point.

Posted by: ulughbek

Jill, that ad is amazing. Free high speed internet access! I could use that myself.

Where are the good men? Here is my theory. I am thinking especially about men in their 30s in the US, but maybe it applies elsewhere. If they are not married, they are working (or procrastinating about their work on a web site

).

If they are not married, they are still hoping for a wife and kids (the good ones - not the players). This means they are looking for women 35 and under (they don't want the woman's biological clock to dictate the pace of the relationship). They don't want to raise someone else's kids.

They are wrapped up in their careers. Work is basically off limits as a place to find someone. When they look around locally, they find that most of the women are looking for "fun and excitement" (or at least that is all they will admit to). And that is not really enough of an enticement to lure a man into a long term relationship once they reach a certain age.

Maybe the men have unrealistic standards (women in this age group do too), but they would rather stand on the sidelines than settle (at least until more deperation builds up!).

I think there is a matching problem in the US. Real-life couples who have met and gotten to know each other over time exhibit a wide range of natural variation in attractiveness, income, height, weight, etc. The key is that they care about each other as individuals. But when men and women reach the stage where they are actively hunting for partners according to a list of criteria, they tend to visualize their dream mate. There are just not enough handsome and faithful 6 foot plus, 6 figure income guys to go around. Nor are there a lot of Ph.D. supermodels who dream of devoting themselves to their husbands and family. [I can tell you that at 5 '8" and with income about $400 less than a certain widely used cutoff point, I meet only a tiny percentage of women's criteria on Match.com. Frankly, I never realized how short I was until I checked on the Internet.]

I think this is why men 35-45 are a "target rich" environment for the kind of "marriage minded" FSU women that are advertised on the web. And the FSU women know how to market themselves to take advantage of this.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

They are wrapped up in their careers.

I think that is a very good point--it seems to me that many Americans (especially in their early 30's or so--the time when they are really building their careers) are workaholics. I know people in the US who work an average of almost 80 hours a week (inlcuding weekends, holidays, etc). When you work that much, how do find the time and the energy to meet people and pursue relationships? Just meeting people has really become a challenge in many US cities.

It seems to me that that's one of the reasons that internet dating is growing in popularity--it's just so quick and easy to log on, create a profile, and to send off an e-mail every now and then.

And the popularity (and availability) of the Internet has of course also greatly contributed to the international marriage phenomenon--it's just as easy to "meet" and correspond with someone in Russia as it is with someone in Boise.

Posted by: ulughbek

I would also add that good men, like good women, are not available for very long before someone snatches them up.

Posted by: Aye

Hello all!

Of course, there are good men in the FSU. And many of them are just TOO good :-). Moreover, I believe that there are no bad men at all, if you know how to treat them :-)
I mean, finding a good one is not a problem, problem is finding a correct/complementary/your dual one.

I have no idea if cocionics is well known on the West, may be you all know this, but I�ll give a couple of references just in case.

As you may know, socionics gives description of 16 main human psychological types, based on 4 functions 1) judging/perceiving, 2) extroverted/introverted, 3) feeling/thinking, 4) sensing/intuitive

Just a hypothesis: :-)

I think, a majority of Russians, both men and women, are introverted and intuitive (not sure about other 2 functions), it means we all need extroverted sensors (which are in minority) to be completely happy :-).
For example, I am a Poet (Introverted iNtuitive Feeling Perceiving ), so my dual is Conqueror (Extraverted Sensing Thinking Perceiving ), and semi-dual is Ambassador (Extraverted Sensing Feeling Perceiving). There definitely is\was one or two here on the board :-), but in Russia, if I am not mistaken, there are 3-5 times more female Poets, than male Conquerors :-). So my intuition says, �Look on the West�.

Other types of relationships might be also comfortable, but in a less degree. But, when you meet your dual you just forget about workaholism, carrier, and about existing non-dual relationships, I think.

Does anybody have statistics or ideas about sociotypes distribution in other countries?

P.S. I can only hope that a strong logic says western Ambassadors �Look on the East� :-)

Nice to see you again,

Aye

http://socioniko.narod.ru/en/index.html
http://www.socionicsdating.com/socionics.shtml
http://www.socionics.org/

Posted by: mria

I just have a question that has been brought up before somewhere. It somehow relates to the thread that Eryk started about why men from the US look towards Russia instead of, say, Brazil, where the women are also very beautiful.

It seems that for women in some nations it is a priority to get to the US or marry a western man, but in other nations, this desire is not so strong. Other countries are much poorer than FSU countries but coming to the West doesn't seem to be on the top of the list for women in these countries.
Sometimes its cultural-lets say for Turkish or Egyptian women who are renowned for their beauty. Perhaps its just not acceptable for them to marry someone from a completely different culture, who doesn't have the same religion and outlook, and then to leave and live so far away from everything they know. But Turkey and Egypt are no better developed than FSU countries. (Turkey is not allowed into the EU, and one of the reasons is economic -the other reason is poor human rights record-, whereas other FSU countries are now part of the EU).
It just doesn't seem to be an attractive option to them.
Perhaps its the same for women from, say, Ecuador, which is classed as a developing country (Russia is classed by the UN as being higher than this -'an economy in transition'). Are Ecuadorian women all flooding to the US? I don't know.
But then in other countries, some East Asian countries and some FSU countries there seems to be much more of a desire by these women to come to the west.

This suggests to me, that it is less economics than some other cultural factors involved. BUt I can't think what they could be, maybe media is one, and of course those sort of tempting advertisments that Jill posted-but why are these advertisments being pushed successfully only in a few countries?

Posted by: ulughbek

This type of psychological classification (socionics) is called the Myers-Briggs personality types in the US, and is quite popular for career choice (finding the right job for your personality). I haven't seen it used for relationships before - interesting!

Posted by: ulughbek

Here is the no. of fiancee visas to the US issued by country for the year 2002 (from USCIS site). I listed all countries with more than 1000.

Russia 1999
Ukraine 1790
UK 1058
China 2252
India 1009
Phillipines 3805
Vietnam 3974
Canada 1213
Mexico 1506
Colombia 1108

I think it is cultural and economic. Countries like the Phillipines and Vietnam have a "colonial" history with US that obviously influences things. I have to think that for Russia and Ukraine it was the collapse of the FSU that allowed the creation of the "mail order bride" business. Once in place, these businesses are self-reinforcing (marketing, etc.) and continue to make it relatively easy (compared to other countries) to find someone from these places. I would think that China and India's numbers reflect a "normal" level of migration (and there is plenty of cultural interaction between these countries and the US). If there were no marriage agencies encouraging the idea of marrying out, I would expect Russia's numbers would be about half what they are now.

That Russia and FSU considers itself part of European culture of course helps, but it is not the only factor. Otherwise their numbers would be more like UK. And the wealthier Eastern European countries do not show a high level of marriage to Americans.

Posted by: mria

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ulughbek
[B]Here is the no. of fiancee visas to the US issued by country for the year 2002 (from USCIS site). I listed all countries with more than 1000.

Russia 1999
Ukraine 1790
UK 1058
China 2252
India 1009
Phillipines 3805
Vietnam 3974
Canada 1213
Mexico 1506
Colombia 1108

I think it is cultural and economic. QUOTE]

Yes, it looks like it. I actually don't know if the UK is 3rd because we share the same language and perhaps some cultural aspects, or if it is for the same reasons as the other countries i.e. perceived better lifestyle/men/prospects in the US. But these are the countries I usually associate with women migrating to the US (although India was a bit of a suprise for me-for cultural reasons). I also knew about the amount of Mexicans going to the US compared with my example of Ecuadorians. I don't think its got anything to do with Mexico being closer, because it doesn't look like geography has anything to do with it (except for perhaps in the case of Canada).

Interesting that UK is on the list, even though the UK is very small. If you compare the population and size of Russia with the size of the UK, there are on average a lot more British women marrying US men.
It sort of kills the generalisation that most American men prefer Eastern women, and sort of puts into perspective the actual amount of US-FSU marriages that are taking place. It looks like it is a LOT less than I originally thought. So it shows that the 'mail order bride' phenomenon, as well as the phenomenon that American men prefer FSU women over western women may be no more than a lot of hype, as we said, created by those, who may make money out of all of this. And if less FSU women are deciding to marry abroad than I thought, then it means the men can't be as bad as they are made out to be. And its sort of convinced me that there is not an endless pool of FSU women just waiting for a western man- the number of fiance visas on that list for Russians is negligable.

Posted by: Jill

You've made a very good point, Mria. The number of FSU marriages IS very low--much lower than it usually seems to those of us who come to such forums and who focus on this part of the world. I remember someone on another forum (similar to this one) posted a website that had rather complete information about the number of fiance visas filed in FSU countries, as well as the percent of those that actually resulted in marriages (also surprisingly low).

This phenomenon is not as wide spread as many people think--it is just very well publicized for some reason (and we can theorize on that sometime). Simliarly, a point that is often overlooked in these discussions is the fact that the overwhelming majority of FSU women are NOT seeking western husbands. Many are--we know that. But many MORE are not. Not everyone is dying to live in the US/Europe. Not everyone is dissatisfied with their marriage and career prospects in this part of the world. Hard to believe, huh?

Well, if I come across that link, I'll post it. I saw it along time ago though, so I can't promise anything.

Posted by: ulughbek

There are a lot more US-Canadian, US-Mexico marriages (they can meet easily, get married first, and adjust status later) - the statistics I gave are only for fiancee visas, which people from FSU countries are more likely to need to get entry to the US at all.

By the way, the number of fiancee visas for Uzbekistan in 2002 was 63. Gotta love those odds!

Of course forums overrepresent things. The reason we need forums to discuss these issues is because our neighbors and friends AREN'T doing this and can't give advice.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Now, that raises another question! I heard that many women simply go with the first man that comes along that hey are "interested in" but they may not "love" him. Their thoughts are they eventually will grow to love this person. I wonder how many women do this. I have asked in the moderators forum if it is possible to set up an poll which can be taken anonymously.

Take it for what it's worth, but Russian Women Abroad did such a survey (and I'm sure this is mostly just anecdotal evidence, and not a scientific study), but here's the result (from http://russianwomenabroad.com/goeswrong.html):

Quote:

One more point: on our Women�s forum we discussed if any of our women were really �in love� when they agreed to marry their husbands, 95% admitted that they were not in love. Some said that they developed love and respect throughout their life with their spouses. Those, few who replied that they did fall in love before the marriage, were met with distrust and disbelief. Many said that it is impossible to fall in love with a stranger whom you met on-line. Surely, many (if not all) of these women assured their future husbands that they were �in love� before the marriage. This is something to think about!

Well, and for that matter RWA is notorious for negativity. So is this really representative of FSU marriages? I don't know.

Posted by: ulughbek

Now you got me curious about this.

I looked at the USCIS site again.

For the same countries, here is an interesting comparison:
1. Country
2. No. of fiancee visas issued
3. No. of fiancees adjusted to permanent resident status (someone married and staying in the country after being admitted as a fiancee)
4. Total number of new permanent residents who became permanent residents because they are spouses of US citizens (married already without fiancee visa, spouse newly became US citizen, etc.)

Russia 1999, 1476, 3550
Ukraine 1790, 861, 1774
UK 1058, 710, 7075
China 2252, 1361, 9290
India 1009, 763, 7333
Phillipines 3805, 2392, 13029
Vietnam 3974, 2418, 7959
Canada 1213, 879, 9121
Mexico 1506, 774, 93189
Colombia 1108, 384, 8651

So a lot of the fiancees never marry, and for most countries the fiancee visa is NOT the most common method. Ukraine seems to be exceptional with both its high proportion of fiancee visas, and high dropoff rate in the process.

Posted by: mria

Quote:

Originally posted by ulughbek
There are a lot more US-Canadian, US-Mexico marriages (they can meet easily, get married first, and adjust status later) - the statistics I gave are only for fiancee visas, which people from FSU countries are more likely to need to get entry to the US at all.

By the way, the number of fiancee visas for Uzbekistan in 2002 was 63. Gotta love those odds!

Of course forums overrepresent things. The reason we need forums to discuss these issues is because our neighbors and friends AREN'T doing this and can't give advice.

Wow, so the number of actual marriages is even lower!? I have really been misunderstanding the situation. For me, I mean, I'm interested in Russia first and foremost, so it was likely that I was going to come across such types of forums at some point and wonder what exactly was going on. I mean I unsuspectingly found a lot of the same opinions concentrated together surrounding Russians and marriage, that I just assumed that a lot of people thought like this, but obviously not.

And yes, the chances of an American man being able to have an Uzbeck fiance are very low!

Posted by: mria

Quote:

Originally posted by ulughbek

So a lot of the fiancees never marry, and for most countries the fiancee visa is NOT the most common method. Ukraine seems to be exceptional with both its high proportion of fiancee visas, and high dropoff rate in the process. [/B]

Hmm, and Americans are twice as likely to marry a British girl than a Russian, and nearly 4 times as likely to marry one than a Ukrainian, even though the UK is much smaller.

Very interesting. But what are all these British girls doing, trying to get to the US?

There is no reason to believe that their reasons are any different to FSU women.

Posted by: Jill

I'm about to phrase something very poorly, so I hope no one gets offended.

I think part of it is that US-British marriages are in some ways more feasible than US-FSU marriages. Both people speak the same lanaguage and share many cultural traditions. It is hard to develop a meaningful relationship with someone when you need a dictionary to commuincate with. And many US men really go into the process quite naively--many (not all) know VERY little about FSU culture and history and have very little understanding of the difficulties that their fiancee is going to face upon arrival in a foreign country. And they're not prepared to handle it.

Also, as I wrote earlier--the fiance visa is only good for 90 ninety days. That means people have all of 3 months together to decide whether or not they should marry--and in teh case of FSU couples, often these people have only met once or twice in person. In many ways they are still strangers. And hence the decison to call things off (or at least to postpone the decision).

With the UK, on the other hand, there is more opportunity to spend time together before submitting the petition (it's closer and there aren't any visa problems). So they are in a better position to decide whether their relationship is ready for marriage. And also, I think a big part is simply lanaguage and a better understanding of each other's culture. Logically, there are fewer challenges.

Posted by: ulughbek

Or British guys marrying American girls...

I think the UK case shows what a "normal" level of international marriage would be for two countries that have similar economic development, similar culture, and "similar" language. Cultural and linguistic distance will decrease the chances for relationships, while economic incentives will increase the migration in one direction.

I am not going to look that up now, but I guess that the number of Americans going to UK to live after marriage is pretty close to the 7,000 coming here. I doubt that many Americans are going to live in the Ukraine (although we know that the ones that do have good reasons!

Right, Jill?)

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

I doubt that many Americans are going to live in the Ukraine (although we know that the ones that do have good reasons! Right, Jill?)

That's definitely true. The majority of Americans who live in Ukraine and who are married to Ukrainians actually came here originally for work reasons. Along the way the met their spouses.
They usually remain here as long as they are satisified with their work, and then later move to the US.

Although I do know some people who came here after marriage to a Ukrainian--in these cases, they met in the US while the Ukrainian was on a J-1 visa (usually for study) and this visa carried a 2 year homestay rule, meaning that for 2 years they are not permitted to apply for immigration. So the American spouse moved to Ukraine to be with them and simply to wait out the 2 years. After which time they move back to the US.

In my case, I also originally came here for work reasons. I met my husband after living here for about a year.

Posted by: mria

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ulughbek
[B]Or British guys marrying American girls...

I think the UK case shows what a "normal" level of international marriage would be for two countries that have similar economic development, similar culture, and "similar" language. Cultural and linguistic distance will decrease the chances for relationships, while economic incentives will increase the migration in one direction.QUOTE]

Yes, that one has to be cultural- I mean Holland and other northern european countries are not up there on the list, even though the economies are similar, and they all speak english fluently.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

My Ukranian girlfriend comes from a town about 300 kilometers from Kiev . when I visited her town the first time I thought it was a town but after spending a week there and listening to her brother in law and her talk about the town I realised her home was reallly a village and that it came with all the disadvantages of that environment. For example , everyday there was a problem with the water supply- we needed to keep water in buckets .
She is paid on average $ 40 per month to work as a nurse and it
I was amazed how she could cope with this- but she could because of her many freinds and the ukranain tradition of inviting freinds to each others flats to chat.
In a word I would say that many people from the small villages of ukraine exist on a month to month basis but do not really live - they are the forgotton ones and it is hard to live in these places.
The " town " had no theatre , and no university .
I asked my girlfreind why she liked me - she told me I had gentle eyes ( I do ) and she said that she was no longer lonely because of my letters - I think I am the lucky one bacause her letters have all been true and she has never asked for money and when I have offered to send her money she has said " No " .
I was frightened though by the thought that she wanted only out of the village ( I know I would if I were her ) - she said that she loved her home and didnt want my money ( it is a blessing that I have no money and technically I am as poor as a church mouse -I have told her this and she has told me that this doesnt change her feelings for me

) ) . I told her that there were good men in her town - her brother in law is a good example of a good man but she does not see this - for her 30 is old ( for me its young !! _ I am 41 ) and when we went to a night club I was right about her being able to find a man from her town because 3 men asked her to dance when I was with her .
I think her main motivation is two fold - she wants to have a better life for any future daughter or son and she wants to love and be loved . ( The trouble is coming from western europe I have never in my life met a woman who wanted these things in my city and I am 41 - maybe this is why I love her !!!)

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

My Ukranian girlfriend comes from a town about 300 kilometers from Kiev .

Just out of curiousity--what town/village is your girlfriend from?

Posted by: ulughbek

Rattlesnake,

Sounds like she's a keeper!

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by rattlesnake6979

I think her main motivation is two fold - she wants to have a better life for any future daughter or son and she wants to love and be loved . ( The trouble is coming from western europe I have never in my life met a woman who wanted these things in my city and I am 41 - maybe this is why I love her !!!)

I think that is often the case with many women.

There is nothing wrong with that if they seek someone they love and not someone solely to help them escape.

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Hi Jill ! My girlfriend is from the town of Berdichev - its south west of Kiev . People in Kiev think its a village , and people in Berdichev thinks the town's a village and I think it has all the signs of being a village - u know , chicken houses next to the apartment, goats grazing in the back gardens and plenty of fresh air in summer.
Water cut off at midnight etc etc. It reminded me of a rural village in southern Ireland.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Berdichev

In Zhytomyr Oblast? If it's the one I am thinking of, it probably is indeed a village (although I have actually never been there--but I can imagine

) You know, there's something I actually really like about Ukrainian villages. I realize life is difficult there, but many of the people are very decent and hardworking.

Quote:

People in Kiev think its a village

People in Kiev think everything is a village. Other than Kiev

Posted by: rattlesnake6979

Hi Jill !! Yes its in the Zhitomir oblast region - it was at one time a very cultural place to live - theatres, art galleries and it had many famous rabbi's - the Lubovich movement started in Berdichev ( Berdeeechev ).
When we we travelled to Kiev and met her freinds I asked one of her freinds what he thought of the town and ts people ( not exactly a random and impartial opinion but ...) he thought that the town was good and the people who lived there were hard working. When I went back to Borispol airport her freind pointed what he described as the " mafia " houses - these were the detached houses with satelite dishes, back gardens, balconies, and located near the river - I tried to explain that in the UK /USA most people have a garden and have satellite dishes but it cut no ice as it was hard for him to earn good money in Kiev .
I like Berdichev and if I could get a job Id work there but I am not an engineer and most work is for engineers/ computer people.

Pete

Posted by: Hat1280

Hi,

I read through this thread (although some lines might have blurred together since it's late and I'm tired) and since it was an open call for thoughts/opinions, I thought I might venture mine . . . But please be gentle in your responses or I'll be forced to . . . cry in the corner like a 5 year old with a skinned knee.

Most of the time neither men nor women are entirely sure what they want. They may think they know what they want, but how many of them sit down, ponder this question, and then write out a list of what exactly it is that they want?

I had a good example of this at work recently. Two girls that I supervise (I work at a gym) were complaining that all the guys are only interested in blond haired, big chested women, and its not fair because there are no decent guys left for women who possess neither of those attributes. Over the next couple of weeks each of them went out with a couple of different guys (whom I unfortunately had to hear about in great detail) and each of these men were described as, ". . .not very nice but he has a great body." What happened to wanting decent men?

So much emphasis is placed on looks in America that it has poisoned the minds of a great many men and women. When asthetic beauty is held in higher esteem than "being nice", people stop looking for love and merely look for a pretty wrapper.

The two girls I described are really only looking for someone to have fun with. Neither one of them is truly concerned about finding love or even a, "decent guy." The two guys they are dating are in the same boat. They just want someone to party with. If these two couples were to get married, I have no doubt it would be quite a shock when they discover they have nearly nothing in common besides partying and getting drunk.

And this is what is great about starting the process of finding your soul mate through correspondance. You HAVE to talk to him/her. You have to talk about your interests, your hopes and dreams, your fears, your likes and dislikes. You have to get to know the person before you even see the person's "wrapper" first-hand.

I know that a lot of you are nervous about what kind of future you will have with your fianceé/spouse, but I can assure each of you that there is a much better chance for you to find true happiness since you are getting to know the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, instead of just creating some ridiculous image in your minds of what you think you want. Each of you KNOW what you want. To find someone to love and be loved by.

Posted by: Jill

I think that was a lovely post, so.....please don't cry!

Posted by: ASoulmate4U

Hi all ! This is my first post, hope someone finds it interesting. I think the biggests difference between marriages between a member of a more priviledged country and one that is not so priviledged, is that the less priviledged person usually the female alot of times foregoes looking for love at all. What I mean by this isn't that they are lieing if they tell you that they love you, not at all but that its alot easier to love someone that is providing what is nessacary for life. Women i believe in every culture are taught to look for providers, i would say its not jsut taught but in thier genes so to speak. So in america where there is not so much nessacaryy this "type" of love doesn't so much exist. This is why i think you get the different terms usually from woman of the "i love him" but "i am not in love with him" .

As far as it being a succesful marriage or not takes skills, not merely nessacity unless that nessacity is still there. So you can bring a woman here from china or FSU and you are nessacary, she will in a lot of cases "love you". and when she becomes ameriicanized so to speak, you and her both bettter have those all important relationship skills or she may relize that some other guy is a better provider and she "loves him more". Now please do not mistake what i say about providing which in our world means money and womans loves for us being based on that to be wholy conscience therefore making them gold diggers. this is not what i mean. I believe it to mostly be subconsciece.

My mother and my x wife both had real troubles with their men when they started to make more money. my moms marriage made it mine did not. This isn't to say that a relationship for my mom or wife was based souly on this but its a huge factor. You cna read article after article about how fast woman divorce men in this country once they make more money then them. and i am not talking about a dolalran hour i mean money.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

You cna read article after article about how fast woman divorce men in this country once they make more money then them. and i am not talking about a dolalran hour i mean money.

Come on, now. That's not always true. I make WAY more money than my husband and we're no where NEAR divorcing. Especially over something as stupid as who gets paid what. The important thing is that each of us contributes to the marriage in the ways that he/she can. For various reasons, I am the breadwinner. But that doesn't mean that my husband contributes less to the marriage, he just contributes less money. So what?

Posted by: Pawel_PL.USA

Dhengi

Posted by: ASoulmate4U

Well then your the type of lady i am lookign for jill.

Becasue from what i have read once a woman makes more divorce is often close behind.

Do you deny though that woman are searching for the best provider ?

and that its possible that if she doesn't need a man to provide for her that she will in turn switch to other expectations in a man ?

You and your husband must have alot more thigns in common or your jsut a class of peopel that beleives in honor loyalty etc.

But many are not such and what if you are to be halfway through buyign a house, or your kids are 6 ? Some woamn would make more money and move on.

So when i use the word materilistic, I dont mean I am lookig for a woman that wants to suffer her whole life in an apartment on 1500 a month. Waht i mean is that if after 7 years somethign happens and it comes to that, that she wont cut and run, and ruin the rest of it. And I very much do believe that this ability to provide casues in most if not all woman part of what we call love. again i am not refering to it by callign it gold digging at all. But seriously whts does it say to a woman if your willing to support her ? Doesnt that action say you care ? Wont sehe feel wanted if you pay for her existance ? So i am not blaming woman or anyone for the desire of wealth only for putting it above other things that in my beliefe are by far more important.

Posted by: searcher

Quote:

Originally posted by ASoulmate4U

Becasue from what i have read once a woman makes more divorce is often close behind.

Do you deny though that woman are searching for the best provider ?

and that its possible that if she doesn't need a man to provide for her that she will in turn switch to other expectations in a man ?

You and your husband must have alot more thigns in common or your jsut a class of peopel that beleives in honor loyalty etc.

I think some women look for providers but not all.....

Yes, sometimes we can make classifications for some things but humans are much more complicated than that....

PERHAPS women who are dependent look for providers but I think independent women have a different criteria.

It is too complex, people are individuals and some thinks can't be classified.

"Love" is not logical and can't be defined.