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It Takes Two to Scam-ango (REPOST)
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: ConnerVT

I don't typically repost things I haven't written myself, but this is exceptional. It was written by Doug Salem, who is well known around several discussion forums. He and his wife Olga run a translation service, and he has been an active writer on things relating to RW/AM relationships.

It Takes Two to Scam-ango

Some guys are quick to accuse Russian women of being scammers. And like a lot of other overused labels, it's starting to lose its meaning.

Yes, some Russian women, and Russians impersonating Russian women, run blatant scams. Other Russian women appear to take advantage of American men by asking for money from them then blowing them off, encouraging them to visit then acting like they don't know them, leading them on then marrying someone else, accepting money for assistance with K-1 logistics then not showing up at the airport, arriving in America then bailing into the night, the list goes on.

But an equal number of American men willingly set themselves up to be scammed; dare I say, encourage it. Whether deliberately, or subconsciously in the name of loneliness and impatience, many American men deceive Russian women. They send them 10-year old photos of themselves sucking in their big guts and wearing hats to hide their bald heads. They embellish their jobs and financial status, or the little backwater towns they live in. They call their rented double-wides "houses." They conveniently forget to mention their American exes from hell and the multiple teenage dependents; or their bankruptcies and inability to qualify for mortgages. After all, aren't we American the original spin doctors? Didn't we coin the phrase "look at the bright side?"

But in my mind, the real ingredient in a recipe for disaster is that many American men bank on the unspoken reality that Russian women are trapped in a socio-economical bummer that precludes them leading “normal," happy lives, and therefore makes them desperate to a certain degree; and that because of this, they (the Russian women) will settle for less in terms of a husband as a means of escaping that reality.

And they will. You probably would, too if you were in their high heels.

(When I say "unspoken," I don't mean it in terms of the "mail order bride" industry in general. I mean it in the sense that the Russian woman is settling for less, and that the American man is playing that to his advantage remains an awkwardly unspoken bartering chip between the Russian woman and the American man during the courtship and sometimes into the marriage.)

But a Russian woman's settling for a LITTLE bit less because that is how the man presented himself, and finding out through the discovery process that it is a LOT less, is another story.

Like the American men, the Russian women are far from perfect, but their culture has taught them to hide and obscure these imperfections, rather than embellish and spin. And this is another ingredient in the recipe.

It has been our experience (Olga and I) that when a train wreck occurs, or even just a simple "scam," both parties usually contribute equally, whether they realize it or not. Then, instead of cutting his losses and moving on, the American man often cries "scam!"

Nice, well-meaning American man (but lonely and desperate nevertheless) picks out great looking Russian woman on the Internet and launches his campaign to win her heart. Perhaps several such campaigns are being launched against her, or maybe just this one. He can't be sure. Feeling just a tad bit insecure about his chances of winning such a prize, American man employs a few of the little white tricks described above. Innocent enough - when it comes to dating we all tend to shoot a little high and oversell ourselves.

Nice, well meaning Russian woman (but culturally and ethically alien to us nevertheless) receives the incoming assault. (Not ethnically – ethically.) After all, this is what she asked for by putting her profile up on the Internet. The letter and photos don't exactly reveal a Prince Charming (or as my Olga would say, "he ain't no Ricky Martin"). Feeling just a tad bit desperate given the realities of her life and the photos and letters laid before her, Russian woman begins lowering the bar one notch at a time. But she does have a limit, and she tries to keep the bar (and with it her dignity) up as high as possible. She writes a suitable reply and sends photos, keeping both her distance and the door open at the same time.

In subsequent rounds of letters and photos the American man halfway removes his hat and mentions his 8 kids from a previous marriage. The Russian woman balks. The American man, sensing he has spooked the prey, redoubles his efforts. He tries to lure her closer with flowers, gifts, cell phones, computers, money,
And "is there anything I can help you with?"

This is where the cultural-ethical dynamic begins to come into play. I hate to use this analogy, but it's akin to feeding the animals at the zoo.

Also at this point, neither the American man, nor the Russian woman is getting clear information. The static is thick. Language barrier, middlemen, little white tricks (innocent deceptions) on both sides. But they both wade through the morass in hopes of achieving their respective goals.

One of the most interesting dynamics is rooted firmly in what I call cultural-ethical differences between Russians and Americans, and one that took me while to fully understand because I kept looking at it from my American cultural-ethical point of view.

After doing due diligence and taking a closer look, a Russian woman decides an American man just isn't for her. Usually the man is shooting too high and the woman is out of his league – too young, too beautiful (remember, they can't help it, they were born that way). Not wanting to reject him outright, she wiggles a little either consciously or subconsciously, and begins sending negative signals hoping he will get the message.

(Isn't that how most women dump you, Russian or American?)

The American man kicks it up a notch. Most of them shamelessly throw themselves at the women – believe me I am not making this up. Olga and I see it on a daily basis. They start throwing the money and the gifts as last ditch efforts to maintain a foothold. And it usually works, for a couple of reasons. Because of the cultural-ethical difference that the American men don't necessarily fully understand:

One, because these women are in tough economic situations.

Two, because their culture and ethics say it's O.K. to use somebody for material or social gain, especially if that somebody demonstrates a willingness to be used.

Three, because their culture and ethics directly relate material gain to self esteem and social status, and promotes jealousy and envy of those who have what they don't.

Four, their culture and ethics justify just about any means to the end of acting upon this jealousy and envy by diverting the material possessions of those whom you envy into your own pockets.

I once asked a beautiful young Russian woman we knew why she was encouraging an older, very un-Ricky Martin-like American man whom she had absolutely no intention of marrying to make a second visit to her town to court her. It turns out that on his first visit, this American man had tricked her into committing to a
first date by misrepresenting his age and physical appearance "slightly." She was insulted.

And even If he hadn't misrepresented himself, she determined she didn't like him on the first date. In her words, they didn't make a credible couple at all. She could not see herself married to this goober. But he continued with his bum's rush. And she let him.

Why? Well, I asked her why, because I didn't understand either and I was trying to protect the guy from later feeling like he was used, and her fro later being called a scammer.

Her rational for allowing him to continue was "First, he insulted me, and that alone is cause for indirect retribution. Second, if he is stupid enough to think I would stoop so low, then let him come and spend his money, the fool deserves it."

This was not only her view, but the view of her mother, friends, and peers. Even the Russian side of my Olga agreed with her (even though Olga's new Western-ethical side understands that it is wrong). This is how Russian women, and Russians in general think. This is the cultural-ethical gap most American men can't grasp.

When you finally understand Russians enough to understand this, you are on the verge of understanding that our definition of a "scam" is their definition of something entirely different.

Sometimes it works out. The American man and Russian woman cut through the interference, see each other for who they really are, overcome all the obstacles, accept their compromises or rejoice in finding their perfect mate, and live happily after ever. Success is directly proportional to how brave both parties become in dropping the dating tricks and striving for full disclosure.

Other times it doesn't work out. All of the factors and little tricks I described above come into play with a negative result. They are not abandoned soon enough and full disclosure is never achieved. If the American man has invested a lot of time and money in the dance, he can feel scammed. The value or degree of the perceived scam being directly proportional to how far down the road they went before the gasket blew. If it happens before the K-1, it is just a Level 1 or 2 scam, suitable for Blacklisting. If it occurs after the K-1, or even worse, after the marriage, it becomes a Level 4 or 5 scam – a train wreck.

Posted by: searcher

That article raises some very important points and give us something to think about.......

A scam has two sides but we usually are told only one side.

Posted by: Italianetz

very well written

Posted by: Peter Burns

I agree with above assessment - who ever wrote the article should consider journalism because its a lucid and easy to understand expose of the current situation in the fsu. I think alot of guys walk into the " scam " like sleepwalking into a minefield- alot to do with loneliness , desperation and fantasy ... the women want to meet the right man but if the man cant read the signals he deserves everything he gets ( no different from the Uk although I have never dated a model in my own country) . The cure ? As long as there lonely , single western men believing the MA marketing and as long as women in fsu are coached on how to act with WM there will always be " scams"- I guess the only way to behave is with honesy - it saves the dignity of both parties .

Posted by: Peter Burns

Hi , from the title it I am sure that the scammer and the scammed do at one level know what is happening - I have been scammed on two accasions and call it naivety or call it plain jack ass stupidity , I failed to read the signals- they were there to be read - I know one thing;
it is possible to deceive only the person who wants to be deceived. I guess the article makes this very clear and it explains the mentality of the fsu woman when she does this ( although for her this would not be a scam ).

Pete

Posted by: Italianetz

Mind if I ask what happened on those two occasions that you were scammed?

Posted by: James Riske

"""""Her rational for allowing him to continue was "First, he insulted me, and that alone is cause for indirect retribution. Second, if he is stupid enough to think I would stoop so low, then let him come and spend his money, the fool deserves it."

This was not only her view, but the view of her mother, friends, and peers. Even the Russian side of my Olga agreed with her (even though Olga's new Western-ethical side understands that it is wrong). This is how Russian women, and Russians in general think. This is the cultural-ethical gap most American men can't grasp. """""

If this is true, then Russians are not worth having in the first place and they are all users and scammers. I mean, if this attitude is so prevalent - that's it's OK to have a man come and court a woman and spend his money on a beautiful woman 'because he's stupid enough to think they would stoop so low' - who the heck would want someone from that culture?

I know I wouldn't.

James

Posted by: rob_we

Conner VT

Wow. Im amazed. This guy (who wrote this article) definitely know what you are talking about!

We should put this post in gold on any dating website. Bravo!

To add soething here maybe.

I do not think it is only specificly russian to accept money and gifts from guys who are not at all "Ricky Martins"

I think its happening everywhere where larger differences in social enviroments take place.

Just look at really rich old ugly guys who get themselves young pretty girls, seducing them with their wealth and their social status!

The fact is to me that here just a little "nobody" suddenly gets catapulted into a "wealthy" and socially superior guy (thats what he thinks and is aware of by the way), using exactly this to get a woman he would never ever even dare to talk to in his own environment!

Its about a bargain oportunity to get somebody you actually can´t handle and do not deserve!

...and I am very sure most guys are aware of this fact. And to be even more bad now, this IS why they go to russia in the first place.

If those guys would start to solve their own inferiority complexes instead of showing their "supposed big wallet" and the "beautiful life" they definitely dont have in reality, they would get a woman that wants to be with them instead of being rented by them.
It seems anybody agrees that if the girl lies about her beauty, weight and age its obvious that the guy has any "rights" to terminate, but if he is already there he of course could have a little "fun" with her to pay off the dept! (its commonly agreed in fact not my opinion don´t misunderstand me here)

Posted by: ham

i don't know whether it is more embarassing the article depicting WMs as such "loosers" ( that article is the typical depiction of a "looser" ); or WMs saying the article is right.
Or the person writing it actually taking business from people he has such a low opinion of.
Kind of operating a gay bar & referring to gays as "ridiculous, filthy butt-blasting f-ggots".
Well, if i elect to run a gay bar, then it is to be expected gays & queers are going to be the audience...and catering to WM seeking foreign women...

the long distance/MOB/WWW scene is full of liars, pretenders, benders of any creed, race, shape & sort.
So this article seems to season the WM looser theory with the "beautiful modelling FSu princess " one.
Both are just stereotypes.

Women who fake their stats go by the truckloads.
Not only men can post pictures 20 years/kilos "younger"; hide offsprings; hide consistency of their former sex partners pool.
FSUWs have taken the shortcut of scamming to an art: at least many WMs had the chance to be proposed by Laetitia Casta, Meg Ryan, Britney Spears...
No Manila penpal centre nor Colombian hotbed can measure up.

Of course every WM is sort of reassured by such stereotypes, because -of course- i'm not like those losers...
Too bad those stereotypes are conceived with him in mind.

Posted by: searcher

Good point Ham,

But I think it does take 2 people in such situations.

Certainly not all women are scammers and not all men are losers. The problem is that there are enough of these people to cause a problem for everyone else.

Quickly everyone becomes distrustful when in reality these events are a rare occurance. They are indeed stereotypes.