An interesting article on marriage agencies from the Kyiv Post - Russian Ukrainian Belarus Travel Music Woman Dating News

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An interesting article on marriage agencies from the Kyiv Post
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Posted by: Jill

Welcome to the marriage agency
Mar 25, 2004 01:18

I don’t know how it is possible for people to take international marriage agencies seriously, to treat them as places where God and fate bring hearts together. I see an international marriage agency as a mirror that reflects the world order, in which there are “first world” countries and “third world” ones. International marriage agencies also exploit gender inequality. You can hardly find a better place to understand the connection between gender and economy, and the myths that surround them.

It is well known that the demand to go abroad is quite high in Ukraine, and that there are businesses which take advantage of this demand. However, international marriage agencies are probably the most morally dubious of these businesses, as they are based not only on a widespread desire to emigrate, prompted by Ukrainian poverty, but also on old gender stereotypes and on a view of women as economic objects.

This is apparent from the fact that the agency only makes a profit from its male, foreign clients, while Ukrainian women, who do not pay for the service, are in effect a commodity, to be sold at a profit.

It’s also apparent from the organization of the so-called “socials” at which foreign clients and women meet. In the center of the hall there are several dozen tables occupied by the clients (often gray-haired gentlemen well advanced in years) and interpreters. Some two or three hundred women prop up the walls; from time to time the bravest ones walk around, trying to attract attention. If a client is interested in a particular woman, his interpreter invites her to their table and they get acquainted in a 15-minute conversation. And again and again. In the evening, each man invites a woman to a restaurant, and after that... God knows what they’re doing afterwards, but it seems everyone is satisfied.

If a client is looking for a woman to spend the night with, he will easily find one in a marriage agency. But the number of marriages resulting from meetings at the socials is really quite low.

However, those few success stories inspire future participants.

The marriage agencies also owe their popularity to a number of myths, myths based on hazy notions like the Slavic soul, fate, love at first sight, and ideals of womanhood. It’s worth examining these in order.

Myths for the clients

1) The Slavic woman

She is: a mysterious soul, an ideal mixture of childish innocence and mature pragmatism. She is very beautiful and traditionally-bred. She aspires to a housewife-like quiet life and knows how to make her husband happy. She likes cooking and believes that a woman’s primary role is doing chores and caring for children. Unlike western feminists, she does not undermine men’s traditional roles. She does not expect her husband to achieve great success and earn a lot of money, but accepts him the way he is. She will adore life in a small house somewhere in the sticks in America. She is poor and unprotected and is waiting for you, waiting for safe and true love.

It should be admitted that these images are partially based on reality. It’s true that people are poor here, and there are a lot of cultural differences.

However, these are not reflections of innate differences of soul or character. Most of the girls at socials dream of going abroad. To achieve this, they will behave and present themselves in the way that is expected of them.

Even if marriage isn’t on the cards, many women enjoy eating at expensive restaurants at a foreigner’s expense, and getting expensive gifts.

There are a lot of stories about adventuresses who make their living at marriage agency socials. I wouldn’t blame them. They are striving for a nice life and use everything they can to get it – their femininity and the fantasies of western men.

2) There are no men in ‘Russia.’

According to this myth, every foreigner in “Russia” (foreign fiances coming to Ukraine usually do not bother to differentiate between the two countries) is passionately desired by the local women, as there are no decent men around. They are all either in prison, or alcoholics, or drug addicts, or they have gone abroad looking for better jobs. Even if there are enough of them, they are uncouth dorks, incapable of behaving like gentlemen and bad in bed. They are moronic, wild, uncivilized animals, a rare species to be registered in the Red Book. And above all, they are poor.

In short, the gender and economic situation in Ukraine is such that a 50-year-old, plump American dwarf living, without very much money, on a farm in Ohio can easily marry here a slim, tall and beautiful young model. If you’re a foreigner, you can easily approach any woman on the street and immediately start a love affair, full of joy and romance.

Again, there is some truth in this. Ukrainian men die earlier than women for a number of reasons, and it’s true (as it’s probably true in any other country) that the percentage of law-breakers and drug addicts is higher among men. It is true that a foreigner here can approach any woman and she will talk to him without fear.

Nevertheless, it’s certainly not true that Ukrainian women do not like flirting with Ukrainian men. They certainly do. They certainly don’t like Western stinginess, individualism and a rational attitude towards money. However, they would not refuse to take advantage of those qualities when they can.

Think about the fact that these perfect Ukrainian women have grown up in the same families as those awful Ukrainian men. Is there any contradiction?

Myths for female ‘Russians’

The American dream

A significant factor in Ukrainian women’s desire to go abroad is what they have heard about the American dream. Women expect to become wealthy, to live in their own houses with swimming pools, to have cars and to relax at expensive health resorts. Some also dream about getting Western educations, starting their own businesses and having careers. In every case, they dream about opportunities. The marriage itself is not the end, but a way to emigrate to a wealthy country where people are seen to be the masters of life.

Marriage is a tool, so it’s no wonder that some foreign men (those more sensitive by nature) feel as if they are goods on the market. And that’s fair. Because Ukrainian women (most of whom are very sensitive by nature) have the same feeling.

It seems that most Ukrainians want to leave the country. Managing to emigrate is considered a real success. Young women are encouraged to marry foreigners, in order to get foreign citizenship and opportunities in other countries. Stories circulate about girls who have married elderly Americans, left them, successfully integrated into American society, brought all their relatives to America, and finally married young American guys with whom they are unbelievably happy.

The failure stories are not told, as people hardly believe them. Even going abroad is considered an unambiguous success. So women who are unhappy to be dependent on strangers in a strange country should keep silent.

“After all, it was your free choice. Don’t you see what is going on here! Do you want to return? Well, you’re a fool.”

Indeed, people who do come back stay here for a month and find that they suddenly don’t want to stay any longer.

Myths for everyone

Unisex myths about love at first sight and fate say that it is possible to find love in any situation, even during three-day socials where the atmosphere and language barrier (to be crossed with the help of an interpreter who often seems to be just another barrier) do not assist deep spiritual contact.

These are the main myths which function at the marriage agencies and socials. They adorn unpleasant realities of economic and gender disparity. With all my heart, I wish such institutions disappeared from the face of the earth. The fact that they exist offends my human dignity.

But they will probably not vanish as long as the “first world” and the “third world” exist. And maybe their existence is a lesser evil now, an opportunity for our people to make their dreams come true. However, these humanistic considerations cannot disguise the fact that it is close to the sex tourism so keenly described by Michel Houellebecq in Platform.

The sad reality is hidden under a number of romantic and not very romantic myths, promoted and held onto by “Russian” fiancees, aging foreign men, and the staffs of marriage agencies. Although the phenomenon itself will hardly disappear in our divided world, we can at least discuss the myths and stereotypes which surround it, so that people on both sides of the counter know what to expect.

Kateryna Maksymenko, a journalist in Kyiv, has a degree in cultural and gender studies.

Posted by: Pin Boy

Hello Jill,

Thanks for the article. Is the entire post the article that appeared in the newspaper?

I did a social tour and it worked out great for me. Don't have much time right now; maybe I'll write more later. But, the situation was (and by no means am I conceited), the guys on the tour weren't the swiftest, so I could see where some of the negativity towards the men who attend these socials comes from. The guys were nice enough, but a few of them were on the odd side. I guess it sounds like I'm acting all high and mighty, but I am basing this on my opinion and the remarks from a couple of the interpreters I talked with after the socials and on two subsequent visits.

But, I just went with the flow, thought, "Hey, there's no shame, no one knows me here." It took a few hours to get to this mindset, but it was a lot of fun and I did meet someone special and we hopefully will be one of the few marriages that comes out of the socials experience.

But on the whole, I'd say it's a balanced piece and for the most part fair and accurate.

Guess, I wrote more than I intended. I enjoy reading your posts.

Pin Boy

Posted by: Jill

HI Pin Boy!

Yes, the entire post is the article. I thought it was interesting and I believe it makes a lot of valid points. It seems to me (and although I have obviously never participated in one othese socials, I have seen them close up as they have taken place in hotels where I was staying on business trips--YIKES!), that there are some men (some, I'm not saying all) who really enter into this quite naively. And there are certainly women who take advantage of that. The other side of the coin is that there are some women there who are quite sincere in their intentions of finding a good husband, but who are taken advantage of by American men who are just looking for, essentially, a sex tour or a domestic servant.

I suppose happy couples can meet at these things. But I wish people (both American men and Ukrainian women) were more informed about many of the realities.

I'm also very glad that a Ukrainian woman wrote this article. I can imagine if an American woman had written it--there would be hysterical accusations of "sour grapes" (I saw this elsewhere on this forum--something to do with a new marriage agency law that was passed or something--the poster blamed an American feminist conspiracy for the law!!!).

I'd be interested in hearing what others think, especially those who have used marriage agencies and who have participated in such socials.

Posted by: Peter Burns

Hi Jill, I have never attended a " social " but one occasion I visited a marriage agency office in Sevastopol . I was allowed to look at the database of the marriage agency and the first thought that came to mind was that this wasnt so much a marriage agency as an emigration service !!
Speaking to a woman in the same city , I was told that the main reason women want to marry a foreigner is that it provided "opportunities " - economic, personal and financial .The attitude of the woman I spoke to was very honest and up front - she did not comsider it mercenary to marry for the purpose of emigration , and as far as she was concerned it was the mans fault if divorce was the end result.
When I asked more questions the woman , it would appear, had been messed about by someone ( a foreigner ) who had said he wanted to marry her but who just screwed around with her and basically dumped her- she was left feeling bitter and so I suspect she justified her mercenary attitude on the way she had been treated . I do not know if she was telling the truth but I got the feeling that it was a sleazy environment and definately not a place for romance .
I just could not believe that so many women were looking for marriage and children and stability outside of thier own culture and country- it scared me because I realised that the main aim seemed to be to leave the Ukraine - I am looking at this without the rose tinted spectacles on.

Peter

Posted by: Jill

And, you know, these marriage agencies recruit women rather actively. I have even been approached by marriage agency "representatives" on the street on several occasions. Guess they didn't know I was an American and that their promises of a glorious, trouble free life in the West wouldn't impress me too much

Although, the really odd thing is that I ALWAYS wear my wedding ring. Maybe they just didn't notice it, but it seems odd that they wouldn't be more conscientious about recruiting AVAILABLE women.

Don't lose heart, Peter. There certainly are sincere women out there who are looking for more than a passport.

Just learn the facts before you get burnt. As the saying goes, "knowledge is power."

Posted by: Pin Boy

I know this is a negative sterotypical potrayal, but, after spending much time with my now fiancee, I asked her directly how long she had been contemplating leaving Ukraine (We did meet at a social and I have posted my experience before. By the way, the marriage success rate was low for that experience. Out of the 20-25 guys on the trip, to my knowledge, I'm the only one who found a woman for a long term retaltionship.)

Anyway, my fiancee answered, "One year." I asked, "Why, is it the economy?" and she turned and looked me in the eye and said, "There are no good men in Ukraine."

No I know that is an overgeneralization, but that has been her experience at 36 years of age with a 7 year old daughter fathered by her ex husband who according to her stayed up late most nights drinking and watching the TV, the biggest thing he had ever contributed to the household. When they divorced, he bought a car. He still lives nearby, but never sees his daughter or contributes a dime to raise the little girl. Now, he is giving my fiancee a very difficult time about coming to the states with her daughter. So, you can see where a person who has had an extermely negative experience may paint a large segment of the population with the same brush.

Pin Boy

By the wya, my now fiancee said she ahad atteneded a few socials in the year previous to our meeting, but did not meet any men she was attracted to or interested in. Lucky me! So far, I have no reason not to believe her.

Posted by: searcher

Hey Jill,

Thanks for the article. I agree that it was well balanced and well written too!

Pin Boy,

Your fiancee's comments sound very much like the sentiments I have heard from . Her circumstances are very much the same. An alcoholic ex who has never visited his daughter. He hasn't seen her since she was probably a year old and now she is elevin.

She has had lots of bad luck with men. So I guess one becomes a bit disappointed.

Posted by: Pin Boy

Hi Searcher,

Hope things work out well for both us. Having a good contributor like Jill in Ukraine is certainly helpful. Thanks Jill.

I've been posting like mad lately because I have a flu bug, being housebound I post, sleep, post, sleep....

Pin Boy

Posted by: Skooter

Hi Jill

I visited an agency in Simferopol, I found the whole thing very sleazy, women who were supposedly committed were still courting correspondence from other men.

It was like a visit to an alternative tourist business, daily trips, interpretors, renting apartments and maybe if you were lucky meet the woman of your dreams.

The focus was very much on the client and how much money you had for the trip and support after leaving.

I just dumped it and realised agencies were a waste of time

Posted by: Jill

Pin Boy and Searcher:

Well, there are some bad men everywhere. Believe it or not, there are alcoholics and womanizers in America, too

I understand that your wives/fiancees have had some unfortunate experiences, but it is not fair to generalize. My (Ukrainian) husband is an angel

And before we met, I dated some perfectly fine Russian and Ukrainian men. They're out there, but I suppose not everyone is lucky enough to meet their match close to home. So they look elsewhere--and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But they shouldn't blame all men of their nationality. It's just stupid bad luck--we've got some of that in the States as well.

Here's to GOOD luck in love

Skooter:

Now that you've given up on marriage agencies, how have you continued your search? Have you found another, more effective way to meet someone? Any success so far?

Posted by: Skooter

Jill

No I would not give up, I went to Tashkent without agency, met a wonderful lady there without agency, we are engaged now.

I spent 6 weeks there and have met quite a few women, that maybe because they are not inolved with agencies or have been involved with alot of western men, are a stark contrast to the women I met in Ukraine.

I would not say this is a bad reflection on women in Ukraine, maybe just the ones I met were tainted by their experiences.

I think the sheer numbers of men going to Ukraine has distorted the situation, I'm just surprised more men don't try going a little further afield if they know what they are looking for.

I've made two visits now to Uzbekistan and my experiences have been only positive, but its unusual to see western men there.

I think for sure you can find good and bad everywhere, but the agencies in my opinion don't really make it very easy, after seeing what goes on in some of the agencies, its not conducive to attracting the good ladies.

Posted by: searcher

Hi Jill,

I'm kinda late replying to this thread.

I wasn't making generalizations just stating what Nelly's feelings/sentiments were.

I think because some women there have had many problems with men, they become a bit jaded or biased with men in their own country. Perception is everything, whether it is true, partially true or false, it is what directs us.

I think because some of them also hear stories from their friends in other countries, they have formed the opinion that "western" men are somehow better.

Now, yes, I can say that I did see more alcoholism and certain problems while I was there but again, this wasn't everyone.

I think also it depends upon the city. In some cities, there may be many more women than the national average and in other cities maybe there are less.

I think Russia is very territorial in that regard and women in certain cities may have more competition in those cities which have even fewer men than average.

Also given the death rates of men, it makes it more difficult for women to find a man as they get older.

I think the combination of those problems may drive some women to consider alternative sources in finding a man.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

I wasn't making generalizations just stating what Nelly's feelings/sentiments were.

Oh, I know you weren't. And you are absolutely right that there are reasons why it may be difficult to find a good husband here--for one thing there simply are more women than men. Also, people here tend to marry much younger, so if a woman is still single at, say, 30 it will be harder for her to find a man her age who is still single.

And many people here do drink. It reminds me of that song--did you ever hear it? It was very popular in Russia for a while--called "Someone like Putin." If you haven't heard it, a woman is singing about her awful boyfriend who drinks, treats her badly, etc. The chorus is "Now I want someone like Putin/Someone like Putin--full of energy/Someone like Putin--who doesn't drink/Someone like Putin--who won't insult me/Someone like Putin--who won't run away."

You know, Putin was once (allegedly) voted one of the sexiest men in Russia. Why? Because he is a known teetotaller. So, sure, I think a lot of RW are sick of all the drinking and believe that western men have less of a tendency to do that--and that's attractive to them.

OK, I'm rambling and I guess I've gotten off topic already.

Yes, as I said, I do realize that there are resons that it can be difficult to find a man here. But that's not because they don't exist.

People use dating services in America as well--so I think anywhere it can be hard to meet that "special someone." Sometimes it's seems that the odds are against you. And there's nothing wrong with exploring other options when things haven't been working out.

And I also think it's important to point out that nonetheless the majority of Russian women are not specifically looking for a foreign man. The women who join international marriage agencies, etc. represent a minority of RW. And even of those who join, I doubt that the majority really believe that they will meet a foreignor, fall in love, etc. But why not try? And I know that sometimes it does work out--and very well--but I still think this is for a small minority of single RW.

Posted by: ErikinSeattle

The lack of opportunity to integrate oneself into the economy while having the luxury of being in a relationship, let alone raising a child, simply does not exist for most Ukrainian women. It exists for more American women, and it exists for many American men. It does not exist for Ukrainian men, aside from very few. The economic disparity in Ukraine differs not from the disparity in America in terms of percentiles. The key difference is in economies of scale. The average American man with a 40k a year job, can support himself, a wife, and a child, maybe two, without the woman working. The existence will be on a tight budget, but in scale to the same dynamic in Kiev, for example, there is no comparison. Hard currency is simply too hard to come by. The average Ukrainian man can never dream about this reality. It does not exist for them. Life in Kiev, for the average person, is a daily scramble for food, rent money, and getting by. Therefore, if you are a Ukrainian woman who wants to marry, mate, and have some economic security, or at leat the potential for that, you are faced with choices to make in relation to the Western World. The Western World offers a legal, political, and economic structure of scale that enables women to achieve a sense of importance outside of the constructs of marriage, motherhood, and family. It also offers the opportunity to have both tradition and opportunity. American Feminisits provided American women with this opportunity. They took their precedent from Scandinavian women during the Viking Age; the first women to vote, hold political power, and organize societal structures in the Western World. Is it no wonder that the waiting list for regular, non marriage, immigration visas to the USA in the average country is 6+ years?? NO. The desire to come here is about entering a nation in which the rule of law holds power over the rule of brute force and historically nepotistic, oppressive institutions, such as exist strongly in the FSU.

In short, it is all about economics, history, and democracy. Things we are dearly trying to hold onto in the USA right now, given the state of affairs of the nation. But what we have, the Ukrainians do not have. If the American man seeking an FSU woman is aware of this, he at least has perspective outside of pop culture bias.

Now, given these realities, human nature dictates that, presented with opportunity, or presented with no or minimal opportunity, the path of opportunity will be chosen. This is not gender reltated. This is genetically programmed into homo sapiens. If a woman has a conscience to temper her enthusiasm for opportunity, then you will find a good person. It has nothing to do with gender. It simply has to do with opportunity.