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New to all this please help

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Posted by: Raggs

Hi i have been looking around on a few sites and decided to write to a few
ladies, in my second letter to one of them i happened to say that i might be
visiting the Ukraine at the end of July, This was the ladies reply:-
I have just received your letter and decided to answer it at once.You are such an experienced man as for the traveling. You have visited so many interesting places. I am sure that you can tell a lot of exiting stories about your journeys. I am very glad that you would like to visit our country. I think that if we had a meeting it would be wonderful. So let�s choose the time that will be appropriate both for you and me. You should not bother about anything. Your task is to inform me about the exact time of your arrival and I will meet you at the airport, will find you an apartment in some quiet and safe district of our city and will do anything for you to feel yourself comfortable in our country. I will be looking forward our meeting because I am interested in you and I would like to see finally your eyes and your smile.
I hope to receive your letter soon. I will be waiting for it.
Sincerely your,xxxxxx

Sould i be worried about this or is it normal for a women from Ukraine to want
do this for someone. I would be happy for any help or advice.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs

Sould i be worried about this or is it normal for a women from Ukraine to want
do this someone? I would be happy for any help or advice.


Yes this does not sound wrong, just a well prepared girl. This sounds like a girl who has some experience in these matters, she has done her homework and knows how to help to arrange things for you.

Your mistake - don't mention the time that you will travel there unless you are sure that she is the one you want to meet.

My advice - {if you might be interested in this girl} Write back and say that your trip will depend on time off from work, etc. THEN look over your letters and be sure that you have asked the right questions to determine if this is someone you will be compatible with. ASK THE QUESTIONS! Does she want children? Does she plan to go to work or school? Does she like to live only in a city {do you live in a city?} Does she drink or smoke? If one partner does & the other does not it causes problems.

You will have to make a judgement on her personality based on the letters, to avoid going to meet the wrong person.


Posted by: Raggs

Thankyou for your advice freebird.
I would like to meet this lady, my only worry is her arranging everything,
Hotel/Apartment and meeting at the airport. I think i would rather book these
things online and then if she does not meet me at the airport at least i would
have a place to stay


Posted by: freebird

Now as far as having the girl arrange everything and meeting you at the airport, there are positives & negatives involved. On the positive side, the best way to stay there is to have an apartment, it won't be as fancy as a hotel, but you can usually get an apartment for about $40 -$50, as compared to $80 - $100 or more for a hotel. If you are inexperienced and don't speak Russian it will be a huge plus to have someone meet you at the airport, otherwise expect to get ripped off by taxi drivers.


What city does the gir live in?

What city are you flying to?


If you are flying into Kiev, but will travel to some other city then you will need to arrange another flight or train trip. It is not always possible book air tickets on Ukrainian domestic airlines from the US {or UK presumably} so having her come and meet you will be a big help.


Posted by: freebird

The big downside to having the girl do the arrangements is that you will find it very difficult to leave after a few days if you find that you are not a good match.


Posted by: Raggs

Hello freebird,

She lives in Kharkov and i am flying to Kiev and i'm expecting a very expencive
5 hour taxi ride, The connection times for flights to Kharkov just don't work.


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Hello freebird,

She lives in Kharkov and i am flying to Kiev and i'm expecting a very expencive
5 hour taxi ride, The connection times for flights to Kharkov just don't work.


5 hour taxi ride? Are you that specific on your schedule that nothing else will work out. I'm not sure how much that would cost, but I don't think I would want that cost. Not to mention stuck in a cab with someone you don't know (unless she is there with you) for 5 hours is a bit more than I would deal with.

Have you looked at a train by any chance?

You also seem to be in quite a hurry to rush over to Ukraine by the end of July. Is there a reason for this, or is it just something that you want to get done during this Summer?

Just some thoughts...


Posted by: royalpalace774

You can fly from Kiev to Karkov for $59.00

http://www.aerosvit.ca/e_us.html


Posted by: Raggs

Hello matt235,
The only time i can travel is at the end of July, This is because of my work.
I have looked at the train times and there is a sleeper train that takes about
12 hours.
Would it be more cost effective to stay in Kiev for 1 night and then fly to
Kharkov the following day. any ideas are welcome.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Thankyou for your advice freebird.
I would like to meet this lady, my only worry is her arranging everything,
Hotel/Apartment and meeting at the airport. I think i would rather book these
things online and then if she does not meet me at the airport at least i would
have a place to stay


It is more difficult to book on-line in Ukraine than it would be in the US or UK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Hello freebird,

She lives in Kharkov and i am flying to Kiev and i'm expecting a very expencive
5 hour taxi ride, The connection times for flights to Kharkov just don't work.


I would not advise going by taxi, I think it might be closer to 8 or 9 hours, you would be better to arrange a train or motor-coach.

I would strongly advise against jumping in a taxi right away to go to Kharkov, you will probably get ripped off, have a hot sticky ride and arrive to meet your girl rumpled & sweaty.


Some questions - have you booked your flight? What time does it get into Kiev? How many weeks will you be there for?

Do you understand any Russian?


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Hello matt235,
The only time i can travel is at the end of July, This is because of my work.
I have looked at the train times and there is a sleeper train that takes about
12 hours.
Would it be more cost effective to stay in Kiev for 1 night and then fly to
Kharkov the following day. any ideas are welcome.


As freebird asked, how long is your stay? If it is sufficient time, I would definately stay a night in Kiev first. This would give you a chance to shower, shave, sleep, etc. That oh so important first impression goes a lot better when you do not smell of airplane and a 2 day old shadow growing about the mug! Not knowing the costs of a taxi for that distance and time, I would say that flying is probably the same if not cheaper and a lot quicker. Actually see the post by royalpalace774. Good info on flights.

Good luck


Posted by: LadyT

Raggs, sorry, I don't know much about Ukraine. With that girls's help looks OK, but! so fast to say you that you will do everything to help, what for? do you know her for long time? will you believe her? If I could be you never hurry with.....book hotel in Kiev and meet her in Kiev, what is problem for her to come to see you in Kiev? she knows much how and where to do everything, I think she knows Kiev as well.


Hello matt235,
The only time i can travel is at the end of July, This is because of my work.
I have looked at the train times and there is a sleeper train that takes about
12 hours.
Would it be more cost effective to stay in Kiev for 1 night and then fly to
Kharkov the following day. any ideas are welcome.[/QUOTE]


Posted by: Raggs

No i have not booked the flight yet.
there are 2 possible arrival times :-13:30 or 16:35
I will be there for between 10 and 14 days
My Russian is basic at best.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Hello matt235,
The only time i can travel is at the end of July, This is because of my work.
I have looked at the train times and there is a sleeper train that takes about
12 hours.
Would it be more cost effective to stay in Kiev for 1 night and then fly to
Kharkov the following day. any ideas are welcome.



Another problem is getting tickets during holiday season.

I had a problem getting an AreoSvit ticket together with my KLM package 2 years ago, but you can probably get them direct from AreoSvit direct.

If you arrive in Kiev mid-day and can get a flight to Kharkov in the afternoon that would be best. Try to get a one-night stay in a hotel so that you can use all of the facilities on your first night. {you might want to look at the apartment for rent before you decide if you want to stay there}

If you cannot get a flight from Kiev-Kharkov on the same day, you should get a hotel. I stayed in the Adria {you can google it "Adria" "Kiev" Hotel"} for about $110. It was convienient because the reception spoke english and there is a bank, chemist and an Areo Svit desk right in the lobby.

I cannot stress how hot it will be in Ukraine in July, about 35 celcius or so. I have travelled both by taxi, coach and by train there, but I would not advise doing this in July or August, some girls will understand if you arrive stinky & looking like you wore the same clothes for 2 days, but many will not.

If you can get a flight the same day, you might ask her to recommend a good hotel in Kharkov, that you want to stay for the first night. You can then book the hotel room on your credit card, and be sure to have a place to stay your first night.

If she does blow you off at least you won't be out in the street.

If things do work out, she can take you to see the apartment to see if you like it, you can rent it for the rest of the week.

It is common for tourists to rent an apartment as an alternative to getting a hotel, hwever - If she suggests that you send some money to her so that she can get an apartment at a good price, decline.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU SEND MONEY TO HER UNTIL YOU HAVE MET!


Posted by: freebird

Has she sent you some recent pictures? You should have at least 8 - 10 good pictures of her from various place, both posed & candid. It is not uncommon for girls to be using pictures that are several years old, re-touched, or done at a studio so that she looks very different from her profile photos. She should be able to send you a few by e-mail



Now as to the meeting - I would advise you to tell the girl that you have only a limited time on holiday, but can come for a week {or so}, and, if things work out you will make further arrangements.

This is not a lie, it is basically the truth {a ten day trip might give you only 8 actual usable days}

DO not tell her when your return flight is, or let her see the tickets

If everything works out by the 3rd or 4th day, you can tell her that you have arranged to stay longer, for the full 10 or 14 days.

If things do not work out, you can prepare to leave on the 4th or 5th day, this will not seem totally unreasonable as you would normally have to travel back to Kiev, wait for the flight, sightsee, etc.

Then you will still have time to meet someone else for a few days if needed.

On my first trip, I wrote many letters to the girl to make sure that we were a good match and that she was the right one. Then when I made the trip she was very different {different charachter, she lied about smoking - oh, and she had a boyfriend!}


Posted by: Chrismc

Raggs I have done that trip a few times, 5-6 hours is about right cost around $150 - $200 by road, by train and air a lot cheaper, but the flights don't tie in with landing at Boryspol, or at least they didn't when I was last in Kharkov 2 years ago, they may have extra flights now but I doubt it. You are right the train is an overnight one, they do have a quicker one 5-7 hours but you would have to wait until the next morning to get it.

My advice having done it, taxi it to Kharkov and get a plane back to Kiev, that is the best way IMO. You can by air tickets in Kharkov no problem.

If you need an apartment in Kharkov, let me know I will give you some links etc.

Chris

PS although your flight will land around 4.30pm ish, allow at least another hour to get through immi and customs, if you loose your bags as I have 3 times flying into Boryspol, then allow another hour or more on top of that.

PPPS Who you thinking of flying with?

PPPPS if you want to know how to recover your lost bags ask I have answers, and what to do at Boryspol in the event.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc

My advice having done it, taxi to Kharkov and plane back to Kiev, that is the best way IMO.


Interesting take Chris. By the way when did you find $150 - $200 to Kharkov? Prices have gone up qiuite a bit in the last 8 months. The taxi drive Borispil - Kiev is now about $25 - $30.

I suppose it is a matter of preference, I also assumed that he would speak very little Russian so would be difficult to communicate with the taxi. I would also expect the taxi driver to jack up the price by $50 for an foreigner who speaks little Russian

IMO, I would rather spend $110 on a hotel in Kiev, then $70 - $90 on a flight to Kharkov the next morning, rather than a 6 hour taxi ride that I suspect would be $200 - $250+ at this time.

But I think that there are 8 or 9 pm flights to Kharkov, there were to Simferopol which is smaller. He could check out AreoSvit and know for sure...

But of course it is a matter of personal preference.


Posted by: Raggs

Thankyou all for your advice


Posted by: freebird

You are welcome, hope this all helps.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
Has she sent you some recent pictures? You should have at least 8 - 10 good pictures of her from various place, both posed & candid. It is not uncommon for girls to be using pictures that are several years old, re-touched, or done at a studio so that she looks very different from her profile photos. She should be able to send you a few by e-mail



Now as to the meeting - I would advise you to tell the girl that you have only a limited time on holiday, but can come for a week {or so}, and, if things work out you will make further arrangements.

This is not a lie, it is basically the truth {a ten day trip might give you only 8 actual usable days}

DO not tell her when your return flight is, or let her see the tickets

If everything works out by the 3rd or 4th day, you can tell her that you have arranged to stay longer, for the full 10 or 14 days.

If things do not work out, you can prepare to leave on the 4th or 5th day, this will not seem totally unreasonable as you would normally have to travel back to Kiev, wait for the flight, sightsee, etc.

Then you will still have time to meet someone else for a few days if needed.

On my first trip, I wrote many letters to the girl to make sure that we were a good match and that she was the right one. Then when I made the trip she was very different {different charachter, she lied about smoking - oh, and she had a boyfriend!}


This is some very good advice. I have been looking for some of this information under my thread Plan B & C. There is a lot of good stuff there, but this is equally if not more important regarding dealing with the "what if we don't work" scenario.

raggs, I am somewhat new at this as well and just throw my 2 cents in from time to time based on common sense and limited experience. There are a number of guys (and gals) on this site that are very knowledgable about alot of these things you are asking about. Listen to all of them, absorb what they say and then apply it to your unique situation. This is the same thing I am doing and I am extremely happy that I have found this place and these people.

Good luck,


Posted by: Raggs

Hi Chrismc,
I am thinking of flying with KLM from Humberside there are 2 possible arrival
times 13:30 or 16:35.
I would appreciate any advise on anything.


Posted by: Raspberry

Austrian Airlines flies direct from Vienna to Kharkov, so you can bypass Kiev. However, it is a bit more expensive. Customs is quicker, since your plane is most likely the only one clearing, due to the lack of international flights there.

You may want the girl to meet you at the airport, due to the taxi situation.
Since she is a local, the cabbies won't gouge you, if you are traveling together.

Keep in mind, though, to not hang around the airport for too long. When there is a lack of flight activity(in or out), the cabs all disappear. Normally, they are all over you like bugs, but with the "dead zone" they are nowhere to be found.

Also, as said before elsewhere in this board, the cops in Kharkov are a bit "over the top" when it comes to treating foreigners. They will grab you at the train, pull you aside, interrogate you, and go through all your belongings.
I had this happen to me twice.

In other cities in Ukraine, and in Belarus, the militsia are at least helpful and friendly. In Kharkov, they go brazenly after foreigners, and harrass them, without any good reason. So beware.


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Hi Chrismc,
I am thinking of flying with KLM from Humberside there are 2 possible arrival
times 13:30 or 16:35.
I would appreciate any advise on anything.


OK, I just did some legwork for you here. Aerosvit has two flights from Kiev to Kharkov each day. The first one departs at 14:40 and arrives 15:50. The second one departs at 21:10 and arrives at 22:20.

I just assumed arrival in Kiev on July 24 and retun on July 30. I know the dates are different, but for the sake of argument. The cost of the either flight (round trip) is $228.60. Might have some taxes on it as well.

Personally, I like to get my flying over in one shot and not stay overnight. If you can take the later flight and arrive in Kharkov that night and stay in a hotel, I think that would be a great way to go. Just meet her first thing in the morning as some of the other guys are suggesting.

Good luck,




edit...this was directly from aerosvit. hope i don't get in trouble for this.


Posted by: Raggs

Thank's Matt


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt235
OK, I just did some legwork for you here. Aerosvit has two flights from Kiev to Kharkov each day. The first one departs at 14:40 and arrives 15:50. The second one departs at 21:10 and arrives at 22:20.

The cost of the either flight (round trip) is $228.60. Might have some taxes on it as well.

Personally, I like to get my flying over in one shot and not stay overnight.
Good advice

If you can take the later flight and arrive in Kharkov that night and stay in a hotel, I think that would be a great way to go. Just meet her first thing in the morning as some of the other guys are suggesting.

Good luck,


Good work Matt.

Try to book your tickets as early as possible for both the AreoSvit flight, and the hotel in Kharkov, as they might be sold out later.

Another suggestion, Have your flight information & hotel information written down on paper IN RUSSIAN so that when you get to Borispil airport in Kiev, you can hand the paper to the girl at the AreoSvit window to pick up your tickets to Kharkov. {she won't understand english, to ask you what surname, time & destination}

When you get to Kharkov airport, show the guy the paper with the hotel name & address so that he will know where to go. Probably will cost about 30 - 40 Hrivnya {$6 - 8} for taxi ride.

If you get into Kiev Borispil at 13:30 there is no way that you can be ready for a 14:40 flight, so it looks like the 21:10 will be your option.

There is a small cafe at the airport, and a moneychanger desk, so you can get a bite while you are waiting.

Don't change all your money there though, as the rate is very poor.

They offered 435 Hrv for $100, I got 475 at a bank in the city, so I only changed $20 at the airport to get a meal


Posted by: matt235

raggs,

It looks like you are getting a crash course in international dating. Remember, listen to all that is spoken here, but make sure it applies to your situation. Also listen to your gut...it has a funny way of making your head and your heart happier in the long run.

later,


Posted by: blucatz

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt235
edit...this was directly from aerosvit. hope i don't get in trouble for this.

You are in trouble mister, for your punishment you must change your picture on your profile so we can all see what you look like, just in case we need to run away when we see you coming......LOL


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by blucatz
You are in trouble mister, for your punishment you must change your picture on your profile so we can all see what you look like, just in case we need to run away when we see you coming......LOL


Hey, that is me in that picture. I just had to edit out my crazy ex girlfriend. These are the kind of things that happen in New Orleans!! What happens in New Orleans, oh wait, that's Las Vegas isn't it. Oops, sorry!!!!!


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Maybe I misunderstood your first posting but you said you want to see/meet her in the second letter you wrote her? This is way too fast unless you have other girls lined up or you're looking for a vacation/guide and not a relationship.


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingToRussia
Maybe I misunderstood your first posting but you said you want to see/meet her in the second letter you wrote her? This is way too fast unless you have other girls lined up or you're looking for a vacation/guide and not a relationship.


GTR, I think he said that he mentioned that he wanted to go to Ukraine in July. I don't think he meant to tell her that he was coming to see her right away. At least, not the way I was reading it.

later,


Posted by: I/O

Raggs: I'd be pulling a back up plan together if I was in your boots. I'm doubtful if this one is legit. Too gushy too early for my taste. I'm thinking the lovely might have balls.

I/O


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingToRussia
Maybe I misunderstood your first posting but you said you want to see/meet her in the second letter you wrote her? This is way too fast unless you have other girls lined up or you're looking for a vacation/guide and not a relationship.


ding ding ding ding.....

HEY.... has all posters missed this small fact.... or did I read it wrong likd GTR???

I would NEVER go see someone on a second letter... there were a few that took me 10 to 20 letters to 'get to know' if we were compatible or not... I can say there was ZIP on letter two... there were a few I knew I did NOT want to see that soon...

If you choose to go.... good luck... hope you make it back home....


Posted by: Raspberry

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt235
OK, I just did some legwork for you here. Aerosvit has two flights from Kiev to Kharkov each day. The first one departs at 14:40 and arrives 15:50. The second one departs at 21:10 and arrives at 22:20.


Are these flights from Borispol, or Zhulhany? Keep in mind that Kiev has two airports.


Posted by: dagpop

It is good that she wants to prepare for your arrival. I would let her find you an apartment and make other arrangements.


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
Interesting take Chris. By the way when did you find $150 - $200 to Kharkov? Prices have gone up qiuite a bit in the last 8 months. The taxi drive Borispil - Kiev is now about $25 - $30.


Yes I did say it was 2 years ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebird
I suppose it is a matter of preference, I also assumed that he would speak very little Russian so would be difficult to communicate with the taxi. I would also expect the taxi driver to jack up the price by $50 for an foreigner who speaks little Russian


Yes a taxi will cost a lot more, but when I have got cars they have been arranged in advance with people I know. So $150 - $200 was doable

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebird
IMO, I would rather spend $110 on a hotel in Kiev, then $70 - $90 on a flight to Kharkov the next morning, rather than a 6 hour taxi ride that I suspect would be $200 - $250+ at this time.


Me too, but flights were not available until the afternoons at one point, they may do mornings now though? and when you add on $30 each way for taxi fares into Kiev, that adds to the cost. BTW I paid $30 each way in October last year, I bet they have gone up since.?


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspberry
Are these flights from Borispol, or Zhulhany? Keep in mind that Kiev has two airports.


Yes I was going to mention that too, I bet they are from Zhulhany, if they are it makes a big difference.


Posted by: Raggs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
ding ding ding ding.....

HEY.... has all posters missed this small fact.... or did I read it wrong likd GTR???

I would NEVER go see someone on a second letter... there were a few that took me 10 to 20 letters to 'get to know' if we were compatible or not... I can say there was ZIP on letter two... there were a few I knew I did NOT want to see that soon...

If you choose to go.... good luck... hope you make it back home....



I will try to clear things up.

In my first letter i had said that i like to travel.

In her reply she asked where i had traveled to.

In my second letter i told her where i had been, And said that i might be going
to the Ukraine at the end of July.

Her reply was the letter i posted.

You have said it took you 10 to 20 letters to 'get to know' if you were compatible or not.

How do you really know until you have met them?

As I/O said she may still have balls! s/He might just enjoy writing letters.


Posted by: Raspberry

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
Prices have gone up qiuite a bit in the last 8 months. The taxi drive Borispil - Kiev is now about $25 - $30.


Keep in mind, though, if you are taking the first flight of the day from Borispol on your return, the cabbies charge premium rates between midnight to 4am from the city.


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspberry
Are these flights from Borispol, or Zhulhany? Keep in mind that Kiev has two airports.



Borispol (KBP) is what I was checking on.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
You have said it took you 10 to 20 letters to 'get to know' if you were compatible or not.

How do you really know until you have met them?

My relationship with my fiancee was similar, felt like I had to see her after 3 or 4 e-mails and 1 or 2 phone calls, but I waited a few months before I made plans to see her.

There are many ways to get to know her without meeting her.

1. Continue the e-mails ... you will learn more about her, her life, her relationship with friends/family, her work, her interests ...

2. Get her phone number ... some scammers won't give their phone numbers out. Call and talk to her.

3. Send her flowers and have the delivery person take a photo with the flowers.

Just because you meet her doesn't mean you will know her or her intentions.

1. There are women who are professional daters, they are looking for a good time.

2.There are also "Good Time Girls" (GTG) that only want a vacation and gifts. When your money is gone, so are they.

3. Then there are the worst of the lot called "Green Card Grabbers" (GCG). They marry you for a green card, then leave you, and try to get all you assets through divorce.

4. There are women that just try to get your money by giving you a sad story so you will send them cash.

You really need to write to someone for at least 3 months before you go to see them. Unless you are looking for a vacation and want a lovely, but expensive, guide.

I don't want to scare you or deter your dreams/ambitions but you need to be careful and take things slower if your looking for a foreign bride. This whole process is a long one with many pitfalls and heartaches. It is almost like a lottery. There are many more good then bad ones out there, you just have to do some weeding.

Good luck and keep your hand on your wallet until you're relatively sure she is legit.


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
I will try to clear things up.

In my first letter i had said that i like to travel.

In her reply she asked where i had traveled to.

In my second letter i told her where i had been, And said that i might be going
to the Ukraine at the end of July.

Her reply was the letter i posted.

You have said it took you 10 to 20 letters to 'get to know' if you were compatible or not.

How do you really know until you have met them?

As I/O said she may still have balls! s/He might just enjoy writing letters.


Sorry... I am not going to waste my time on someone who seems hell bent on getting screwed..... If you think you can know anything of depth on two letters you are hopeless...

Good luck to you... I am gone....


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Oh come on Tex, Raggs is a newbie and needs our help. I'm sure he'll be okay, he just needs a little guidance.


Posted by: Raggs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Sorry... I am not going to waste my time on someone who seems hell bent on getting screwed..... If you think you can know anything of depth on two letters you are hopeless...

Good luck to you... I am gone....



I am sorry if i upset or offended you and i totally agree that 2 letters is not enough, I was trying to say that just because someone writes nice letters and comes up with good answers to all your questions dosn't meen that you know them. I think that you would get more of an idea what someone is really like only through meeting them.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
I am sorry if i upset or offended you and i totally agree that 2 letters is not enough, I was trying to say that just because someone writes nice letters and comes up with good answers to all your questions dosn't meen that you know them. I think that you would get more of an idea what someone is really like only through meeting them.

You are correct Raggs, meeting someone is the best way to get to know someone and eventually it is something you should do if you feel it is necessary. Just take things slow and get a better feeling about the girl before going to see her.

We are all newbie's at one time or another. It is a scarry process from day one and if you continue on this course, you will ask yourself "why am I doing this" more than once.

Good luck and we are here to help not critisize so ask questions.


Posted by: clark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Sorry... I am not going to waste my time on someone who seems hell bent on getting screwed..... If you think you can know anything of depth on two letters you are hopeless...

Good luck to you... I am gone....


TP I have to agree with GTR on this one. Thats a little quick to be pulling the trigger on a newbie. He definitely is in need of some guidance and could use your help. We were all there at one time or another. He just may be voicing his sooner than the rest of us. Stick around and give him some benefit of your wide and varied experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
I am sorry if i upset or offended you and i totally agree that 2 letters is not enough, I was trying to say that just because someone writes nice letters and comes up with good answers to all your questions dosn't meen that you know them. I think that you would get more of an idea what someone is really like only through meeting them.


No one is offended. It is difficult for some, myself included when we see someone who finds the forum looking for help but yet hellbent on getting screwed both emotionally and financially. There are some hemorrhages in your story. This lady could be real and just eager or a GTG or a prodater. You just don't have enough information to make any determination. If you like what you have heard from her so far, continue to communicate (telephone) and email her. Also:

1) have her meet you in Kiev

2) Make your own arrangements

You simply do not know enough about her at this point to involve her in any of your plans. She may be worth a meeting or may not, but at this point you don't or shouldn't include her in you're planning of arrangements. Get an apartment that can accommodate the both of you should you meet and hit it off. You really should plan on self-reliance. FWIW

Good Luck


Posted by: Raggs

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
TP I have to agree with GTR on this one. Thats a little quick to be pulling the trigger on a newbie. He definitely is in need of some guidance and could use your help. We were all there at one time or another. He just may be voicing his sooner than the rest of us. Stick around and give him some benefit of your wide and varied experience.



No one is offended. It is difficult for some, myself included when we see someone who finds the forum looking for help but yet hellbent on getting screwed both emotionally and financially. There are some hemorrhages in your story. This lady could be real and just eager or a GTG or a prodater. You just don't have enough information to make any determination. If you like what you have heard from her so far, continue to communicate (telephone) and email her. Also:

1) have her meet you in Kiev

2) Make your own arrangements

You simply do not know enough about her at this point to involve her in any of your plans. She may be worth a meeting or may not, but at this point you don't or shouldn't include her in you're planning of arrangements. Get an apartment that can accommodate the both of you should you meet and hit it off. You really should plan on self-reliance. FWIW

Good Luck


Thankyou for your advise i think i will make all the arrangements myself.

I have another stupid question if you don't mind.

I am in contact with a number of women from the same area, if the first one
does not work out would it be wrong to call one of the others, would she know why i was there.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

No nothing wrong with having a back up plan, in fact you should always have one. It might be sight seeing, seeing another girl, or visiting a dating service.

Good luck and keep asking questions, it's the best way to learn. There are many experienced people here that are willing to help.


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Thankyou for your advise i think i will make all the arrangements myself.

I have another stupid question if you don't mind.

I am in contact with a number of women from the same area, if the first one
does not work out would it be wrong to call one of the others, would she know why i was there.


Raggs,

First off, no such thing as a stupid question. If you don't know the answer to it, then you should ask it. We are all in this together so to speak.

I think making the arrangements yourself is not only a smart move but it will also show the lady that you can make your own decisions and are strong enough to let her know such. In contrast to a lot of the American (Western) women, I have found that a Russian or Ukranian woman expects that the man be the man...i.e. be able to make decisions and not be a wuss.

Also, by having her meet you in Kiev, you can determine the level of her sincerity. See if she is willing to forego the costs of getting to Kiev herself, see if she is willing to invest in the relationship. As mentioned earlier, I don't think I would tell her that you plan on staying more than about 4 days, even if you are planning on being there for 2 weeks. You need to have an easy out. (In one of my previous lifes, it was always important to remember to ensure you had a way out of every situation!) She may be madly in love with you, obsessed even, however you might discover that there is no chemistry on your end. You can tell her flat out to "get out"--not very cool, or you can bite your tongue for a few days, enjoy the company of a local "guide" and then conviently have to leave. Just make sure she leaves Kiev before you do.

If Plan A becomes a no go, you can either plan on traveling to another city (Odessa, Dnep, etc) to see some other ladies that you have been talking to(Plan B) or give a local agency a call in Kiev to see what can be arranged while you are there (Plan C). You might actually want to call an agency in Kiev (or any other city for that matter) before you leave, tell them of your situation and plans, and let them know that you might be needing their services if Plan A goes south. This way, you and the agency can do a little preplanning before you leave for Ukraine and it might make things a little smoother along the way.

One other thing about Kiev. I am getting the feeling that it is much safer for foreigners there than Kharkov. My discussions with stirlitz (another RMP member) and reading many of the threads here has led me to this conclusion. Kharkov police and militia can be particularly nasty to us guys. I have read stories of nasty shakedowns looking for drugs, and some as much as even planting drugs on foreigners (this might be part of this thread or maybe it is in another...not sure, I'll have to look that one up. if it is here, please forgive me.)

Personally, I am planning a trip to Ukraine in November (tenative) and the Plan A, B, and C as described are all in my head right now. Still do not know where I am going, nor exactly which lady (out of about 3 or 4) will become plan A.

I wish you the best of luck, keep us informed, and ask those "stupid" questions all you want. I don't know everything (ex-wife, ex-girlfriends can all atest to that), but I will help in anyway possible. Keep your head up and always remember to listen to you gut.

later,


Posted by: clark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Thankyou for your advise i think i will make all the arrangements myself.

I have another stupid question if you don't mind.

I am in contact with a number of women from the same area, if the first one
does not work out would it be wrong to call one of the others, would she know why i was there.


The only stupid question is the question not asked. As for the answer to your question, that would largely depend on you. Can you juggle a number of women? Is there something "wrong" with it? My answer is no. That is, unless you somehow wind up committed to one, in one form or another while seeing the others.

A problem you have here Raggs is that you are doing something most here do not do. It appears your window for communicating with some women is closing fast as your trip is quickly approaching. For this reason you may want to visit an agency while you are there. On the other hand, if any of those women you are currently communicating with are willing to meet you, go for it. Meet them all. Use the agency as your back up plan. You may not even need them. If that is the case you are better off.

Personally, I advocate the write one visit one but thats precluded to having ample time to "get to know" and discover if this is a lady you would like to meet. You don't really have that luxury if you are going this month. WOVO or WMVM is all a matter of preference. A good rule of thumb is, do you juggle multiple women in your hometown?

I tried the write many method before visiting at first but it became very burdensome and I quickly knew that wasn't the way for me.


Posted by: Raggs

After reading the advice i was given i wrote a letter to the lady and told her that i would prefer to stay in a hotel for the first night and then find an apartment the next day this was her reply:-

Thank you for your letter very much. I am pleased to know that you are thinking about me.
As for your arrival, the thing is that I work in a large firm and I often have business trips to other cities of Ukraine. In the middle of July I will be able to inform you about my work and we will discuss the exact dates of your arrival.
Speaking about hotel, I think that it will be more convenient for you to stay in the apartment at once that I will rent for you in some quiet and safe district of our city because it is considered inappropriate for a woman in Ukraine to visit a man in a hotel. Besides we do not really have excellent hotels in our city what it unfortunately! My English rather poor but I hope to improve it through communication with you very soon! If to be serious I think that my agency will provide the interpreter for the first meeting so we will be able to ask each other as many questions as we need! You will be met at the airport in Kharkiv or in Kiev )in case you will need taxi from Kiev to Kharkiv).
I am looking forward your arrival and our future meeting. I hope that we will have a great time.
I hope that you will have a good day.
Best wishes.
Sincerely yours,xxxxx

any thoughts anyone?

she seems set on an apartment but she has indicated that she will meet me at the airport at Kharkov or Kiev.


Posted by: Chrismc

Raggs

Apartments are the way to go, much more flexible and cheaper and she is correct the hotels in Kharkov that I know of are not up to much. I don;t see anything wrong with what she has said up to now.

If this were me, I would be talking to her on the phone as much as possible by now, you get a much better idea about someone on the phone than in emails.

Chris


Posted by: Raggs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
Raggs

Apartments are the way to go, much more flexible and cheaper and she is correct the hotels in Kharkov that I know of are not up to much. I don;t see anything wrong with what she has said up to now.

If this were me, I would be talking to her on the phone as much as possible by now, you get a much better idea about someone on the phone than in emails.

Chris


Thanks Chris.

wolud it be possible to get the info on apartments and lost bags you were talking about?


Posted by: matt235

Raggs,

There is an upside to your quick trip. You have a distintive advantage of not really knowing the lady that you are going to see. Confused? I'll explain.

You have been asking about the WMVM thing here in the past 24-48 hours, which leads all of us to believe that you are communicating with probably 3 or 4 (maybe more, maybe less) that are possible matches. The problem is that you are sort of rushed for time and you haven't had a chance to get to know them just yet. So here is my solution.

If this were me, and I stress if this was me, doing this trip in this fashion, I would tell my primary lady that I feel that I am really rushing this trip to get it in by the end of the summer. I would tell her straight away that I enjoy speaking with her and feel that we MIGHT have a connection once we meet, however, it is also possible that we may not. I would also tell her right now that I have spoken with a few other ladies from Ukraine regarding a possible meeting on my trip. As it seems to find the perfect one (perfect for me) would mean that I need to ensure what I am doing is correct. As I am sure that she has dated other guys and possibly even met other Western men in the same fashion as we would be planning, she should understand that under the circumstances rushing into something could be bad. I would tell her that I shall meet her before any of the others and I would really enjoy being able to cancel my meetings with the others ladies and spend the rest of my time with her, but I would not want her to feel obligated to stay with me and entertain me for the entire length of my trip if for some reason our chemistry doesn't work out.

I would spend some time writing this letter to her as it must be in the right tone and message in order for it to be effective. If you tell her that you are doing this as a way of protecting her, she will easily accept this for what it is. If for some reason you tell her this in some form of arrogance or that you don't really care for her feelings on the subject or that you are not trying to protect her, it will, I repeat, it will backfire on you.

The reason that I have said that this is what I would do, is because I feel comfortaable dealing with situations like this with western women and some of the RW's that I know here in the states (my last girlfriend locally was Romanian). However, if you are not comfortable with this, by all means do not attempt what I just proposed. It will come back to bite you in the butt if you do not have the juevos for it.

Like I said, it can be an advantage if used correctly.

later,


Posted by: Raggs

Hi Matt,

She said in here letter that she would rent the apartment for me.
should i now expect the send money for apartment letter. or is it just the way it has been worded.

Just my thoughts.

P.S. I am not stupid enough to send money.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Tell her you already have an apartment or will make your own arrangements. One scam is to get you to a specific apartment so they can collect a reward from the guy that owns it. She may or may not stick around once she collects her reward.


Posted by: matt235

Raggs,

To be honest with you, on this one, I don't know. She might be asking for money or then again she could be saying that she is going to cover the costs herself. It depends on the rest of the letter and how it was stated. A quick question for you. What does she do for a living? Do you think she has money for this? If she is a lower-middle class (by Ukranian standards I mean), then she may not have the monies for this, but if she is a bit more experienced, has a fair paying job, then I do not think that it would be out of the question for her to accept the responsibility for the apartment considering you will have to pay for airfare, etc.

Still, it would depend upon how she is stating this. Personally, I would think that paying for the apartmen yourself would be easy enough directly through the people that are renting the place. She might be able to get a better deal, however, I would wait to see if she is going to ask for money. If she does...well, you know the answer there.

In regards to my situation, my primary lady has asked me to rent an apartment for us in Kiev. Even though she lived in Kiev for 5 years while in college, she still expects me to handle these things.

later,

p.s. too bad we won't be in Kiev at the same time, we would be able to get together for a beer or something. I'm planning on November 2008 and March 2009.


Posted by: Raggs

Matt the letter is posted at #50.
She is an Economist what ever one of those is. I have no idea about what sort of money she gets.

P.S. What is wrong with tattoos.

P.P.S. March 2009 might be ok.


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Matt the letter is posted at #50.
She is an Economist what ever one of those is. I have no idea about what sort of money she gets.


I am still trying to figure out what an Economist does. I know my economic classes in college didn't prepare me for any particular job.

Anyway, I'm sorry that I didn't see the letter earlier, you must have posted it when I was posting and it got crossed up or something. But I read it and here are two comments that I have. Are you planning on going to Kharkov or staying in Kiev? To me it is not clear. If you are staying in Kiev, they have plenty of decent hotels there that would work for you the first night. In Kharkov, I don't know about the hotel situation so she might be right there.

Secondly, and what I am concerned about the most is that she is planning on spending the night with you from the first night on. This seems to be a bit forward for someone from any nation to do considering the two of you have never met in person before. You are right, she seems really adamant about it, but I would be leary.

A possible solution to both of these issues at the same time is to book two hotel rooms in Kiev for the first night--one for you, one for her. If you end up only using one, then so beit, it would still be $80 well spent. The next morning, if all is going well (remember your gut feeling here), the two of you board a plane or get a taxi for Kharkov or you go check out the apartment that either you or her has arranged. The first night in a hotel in this situation is probably a safer bet considering everything that has been discussed here so far. If she balks at the idea of the two hotel rooms, tell her it is for her protection since afterall, a lady should not be seeing a man in his hotel room in Ukraine. It is just not proper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
P.S. What is wrong with tattoos.


Tats? Well, it is just not my thing, something from a previous life. Don't get me wrong, they are interesting to look at, but they are strictly a personal thing and personally I don't like them on myself or my lady.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
P.P.S. March 2009 might be ok.


OK, we might be able to do this. We can have a beer or two and you can show me your tattoo(s) . Maybe even a double date, who knows!!!


Posted by: Raggs

Thanks Matt,

I think i will go with the 2 hotel rooms in kiev idea and she what she says.

I am planning on going to Kharkov the reason Kiev was mentiond is i told her
that because of flight connections that i may have to get a taxi from Kiev.
It also allowed me to find out if she would still be willing to meet me knowing
Kiev is a ***** to get to.

I am sure i will still be confused and asking questions until i go.

And possibley while i am there.


Posted by: matt235

Most excellent. Let us know what's happening and we/I will do what we/I can to at least give you a place to talk it out!

later,


Posted by: Sparky114

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Matt the letter is posted at #50.
She is an Economist what ever one of those is. I have no idea about what sort of money she gets.

P.S. What is wrong with tattoos.

P.P.S. March 2009 might be ok.


Hi Raggs,

Sorry for coming in late on your TR, I have a couple of thoughts for you based on my experiences

Firstly on the first meeting with my lady who now is my Fiancee she took care of all the arrangements for the apartment for me, I never paid a penny untill I was on the ground there, and she was sure I was happy with my accommadation.

I also had the same comment told to me about hotels being bad and also not letting your lady visit you there, now having been to Russia a total of 15 times and soon (within the next two weeks 16 time) I can agree with her that this is the truth and is widely considered as inapropriate behaviour for a lady.

As far as your question about Economists job is as follows:-

1. Can be someone who just looks after the day to day money in a shop
2. A company book keeper
3. Accounts clerk
4. Head of Accounts

Normally if they are an Accountant they state this but if they are an Ecconomist then one of the above usually fits but it is an general term that is used widely for many jobs that invole mathmatical calculations with or without money transactions


Lastly Welcome to you a fellow UK Guy, good see another here!


Mark


Posted by: Raggs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky114
Hi Raggs,

Sorry for coming in late on your TR, I have a couple of thoughts for you based on my experiences

Firstly on the first meeting with my lady who now is my Fiancee she took care of all the arrangements for the apartment for me, I never paid a penny untill I was on the ground there, and she was sure I was happy with my accommadation.

I also had the same comment told to me about hotels being bad and also not letting your lady visit you there, now having been to Russia a total of 15 times and soon (within the next two weeks 16 time) I can agree with her that this is the truth and is widely considered as inapropriate behaviour for a lady.

As far as your question about Economists job is as follows:-

1. Can be someone who just looks after the day to day money in a shop
2. A company book keeper
3. Accounts clerk
4. Head of Accounts

Normally if they are an Accountant they state this but if they are an Ecconomist then one of the above usually fits but it is an general term that is used widely for many jobs that invole mathmatical calculations with or without money transactions


Lastly Welcome to you a fellow UK Guy, good see another here!


Mark



Thanks for the welcome and the info.

Raggs


Posted by: clark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Thanks for the welcome and the info.

Raggs

I'm not seeing anything wrong with her letters either except that they are letters. The downside is you just haven't communicated enough with this lady and therein flies up your proverbial RED FLAG. It is difficult to understand how you can plan such a trip with a lady you do not know. You've decided two hotel rooms are best? Apartments are generally the way to go. This is most generally the preferred way to go with Russians (in the absence of friends or relatives) when visiting another city within Russia also.

It appears that this kind of arrangement scenario worked out for Sparky and it might work out for you. Unfortunately, the chances are that it won't. Raggs, many times your respectable FSUW just won't come on that strong so early into correspondence. She is associated with an agency. Is it a reputable one? I am seeing dollar signs for some reason. I would be very weary. Very weary. Anytime you disregard the continual red flags seems to be a recipe for disaster.

I again would encourage you to be completely self reliant in your accommodations. Ask her recommendations if you need to, but insist on doing it yourself. Something is just amiss there.


Good Luck


Posted by: goforit

Hmmm....read through the entire thread. I think I would go slow on this one. Very slow and do it all myself and invite her to visit for a few days. I'm with Clark, my yellow caution light is blinking pretty fast.

Welcome Raggs, I hope we can be of some help here. You might want to check out the plan b thread currently in progress.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark

1) have her meet you in Kiev

2) Make your own arrangements

You simply do not know enough about her at this point to involve her in any of your plans. She may be worth a meeting or may not, but at this point you don't or shouldn't include her in you're planning of arrangements. Get an apartment that can accommodate the both of you should you meet and hit it off. You really should plan on self-reliance. FWIW

Good Luck


Quote:
Originally Posted by matt235
Raggs,



Also, by having her meet you in Kiev, you can determine the level of her sincerity. See if she is willing to forego the costs of getting to Kiev herself, see if she is willing to invest in the relationship. As mentioned earlier, I don't think I would tell her that you plan on staying more than about 4 days, even if you are planning on being there for 2 weeks. You need to have an easy out. (In one of my previous lifes, it was always important to remember to ensure you had a way out of every situation!) She may be madly in love with you, obsessed even, however you might discover that there is no chemistry on your end. You can tell her flat out to "get out"--not very cool, or you can bite your tongue for a few days, enjoy the company of a local "guide" and then conviently have to leave. Just make sure she leaves Kiev before you do.



Sorry guys I think you are wrong in this. Meet her in her home city is the only way to go, that way you can leave without too much drama. If she takes time off from work to spend with you and spends $$$ to go to Kiev, then you decide there is no chemistry you will have a very awkward time trying to depart. You will either have to spend your holiday entertaining her, or else if you try to depart after 2 or 3 days she will probably put you on the "Black List" as a creep or a flake.

Raggs have you heard of the "black lists"?


Posted by: Raggs

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
QUOTE=matt235]Raggs,



Also, by having her meet you in Kiev, you can determine the level of her sincerity. See if she is willing to forego the costs of getting to Kiev herself, see if she is willing to invest in the relationship. As mentioned earlier, I don't think I would tell her that you plan on staying more than about 4 days, even if you are planning on being there for 2 weeks. You need to have an easy out. (In one of my previous lifes, it was always important to remember to ensure you had a way out of every situation!) She may be madly in love with you, obsessed even, however you might discover that there is no chemistry on your end. You can tell her flat out to "get out"--not very cool, or you can bite your tongue for a few days, enjoy the company of a local "guide" and then conviently have to leave. Just make sure she leaves Kiev before you do.



Sorry guys I think you are wrong in this. Meet her in her home city is the only way to go, that way you can leave without too much drama. If she takes time off from work to spend with you and spends $$$ to go to Kiev, then you decide there is no chemistry you will have a very awkward time trying to depart. You will either have to spend your holiday entertaining her, or else if you try to depart after 2 or 3 days she will probably put you on the "Black List" as a creep or a flake.

Raggs have you heard of the "black lists"?[/QUOTE]

No i haven't but i supose they are a womens version of a scam list.


Posted by: Raggs

My thoughts at the moment are:-

Have her meet me in Kiev, I will book 2 hotel rooms, stay for 1 night only.

The following day fly to Kharkov with her, I will book the apartment.

If things don't work out she is in her home town and i am in contact with other ladies from there.

Would this work?


Posted by: clark

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
Sorry guys I think you are wrong in this. Meet her in her home city is the only way to go, that way you can leave without too much drama. If she takes time off from work to spend with you and spends $$$ to go to Kiev, then you decide there is no chemistry you will have a very awkward time trying to depart. You will either have to spend your holiday entertaining her, or else if you try to depart after 2 or 3 days she will probably put you on the "Black List" as a creep or a flake.

Raggs have you heard of the "black lists"?


All due respect Freebird because I like you but, this is where our ideologies make a fork in the road. Not to mention this whole scene with this particular lady reeks of something foul and it may not be. There just isn't enough communication to know. From what I gathered from his posts is, even though she has made a gracious offer, he is communicating with other ladies in the area as well. If he goes to Kharkov and stays in an apartment she has set up he can easily be at her mercy. Not a good scenario IMO. If she is playing a game or if it doesn't work out, sure he can hit the road like a thief in the night, but then he is traveling again when he should be vacationing and meeting ladies.

Personally I would not include in plan B having to find another apartment or hotel. I would have taken care of that before I had boots on the ground in Ukraine. If she is serious and wants to see him, she will go to Kiev to do it. If he so chose, he could cover her expenses when she arrived. If they did hit it off he could always go back to Kharkov with her.

Let me try to make myself completely clear here, I am all for following one's heart but not with so many red flags, thats insanity.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Speaking about hotel, I think that it will be more convenient for you to stay in the apartment at once that I will rent for you in some quiet and safe district of our city because it is considered inappropriate for a woman in Ukraine to visit a man in a hotel. Besides we do not really have excellent hotels in our city what it unfortunately!

any thoughts anyone?

she seems set on an apartment but she has indicated that she will meet me at the airport at Kharkov or Kiev.


Raggs I've been on 6 trips to Ukraine {but only 1 while looking to meet someone} so I been through alot of this before.

If you decide to fly to Kharkov {IMO - best plan} I would tell the girl that you only want to stay in the hotel on the first night because you will be arriving late, will be tired and won't be able to figure everything out at that time. She will not have to be "coming to your hotel", you will only sleep there the first night after your flight. On the next morning she could take you to look at the apartment, I would not advise to make a commitment to rent it without seeing it first.

Kharkov is a city of 2 million {IIRC} so there are certainly "acceptable" hotels, maybe not the Ritz but fine enough for a traveller.

I don't know how many trips Clark has made, but Chris has been quite a few.
There are some things you should know about apartments.

1.) They are cheaper and more convienient than hotels, as Chris says this is the better way to go - but:

2.) Sometimes the people who offer to connect you with a "nice apartment" take you to a place that is rather crummy

3.) The owner of the apartment usually will only rent it for a minimum of 3 or 4 days in summertime, so you don't want to make a commitment until you see it.

4.) The locks & plumbing in Ukraine can be rather tricky, you may need someone to explain to you how to open the triple locks or how to start up the gas on the hot water tank. I wouldn't want to be puzzled by that on my first night, I only want a hot shower and a nice bed.

5.) Some of the apartments have no WORKING A/C, so I always want to check on that before I take the place.

6.) The apartment is often connected to another house etc. so if you arrive at 10:30 at night, wait to pick up your bags, get a taxi and find the apartment you might be waking the landlord up at midnight to get in {and he/she speaks no english}

7.) It will be far better for you as a non-Russian speaker to come to the apartment during the day, with the girl & interpreter so that they can explain to you anything you need to know.
{There was a trip report by Rasberry not understanding the lock, getting locked out of his apartment, having to call the manager etc}

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
Raggs

Apartments are the way to go, much more flexible and cheaper and she is correct the hotels in Kharkov that I know of are not up to much. I don;t see anything wrong with what she has said up to now.

If this were me, I would be talking to her on the phone as much as possible by now, you get a much better idea about someone on the phone than in emails.
Chris


Chris I agree with you except I would go the safe route and take the hotel for one night only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt235
Raggs,

I would tell her straight away that I enjoy speaking with her and feel that we MIGHT have a connection once we meet, however, it is also possible that we may not.


I would also tell her right now that I have spoken with a few other ladies from Ukraine regarding a possible meeting on my trip. As it seems to find the perfect one (perfect for me) would mean that I need to ensure what I am doing is correct. As I am sure that she has dated other guys and possibly even met other Western men in the same fashion as we would be planning, she should understand that under the circumstances rushing into something could be bad. I would tell her that I shall meet her before any of the others and I would really enjoy being able to cancel my meetings with the others ladies and spend the rest of my time with her, but I would not want her to feel obligated to stay with me and entertain me for the entire length of my trip if for some reason our chemistry doesn't work out.

later,



Matt - tell her that you have not had much time to communicate and that only a meeting will tell you if there is chemistry?

Yes that is fine, however

DONT TELL HER ABOUT OTHER GIRLS!! This will destroy any chance you have, IMO, as she will think that you are not serious. Girls do not appreciate you being "honest and open" with them, they will just think you are a tourist visiting many girls. She already knows that if it does not work out you will visit others.

Raggs, I would advise you to just tell her that you have only a limited time, but you want to meet her before summer is over. Go, meet, stay a few days and then decide if she is the one. If not then politley tell her {maybe on day 4 or 5} that you must head back to Kiev.

Keep it simple. - You will come meet, and see how it goes. That's all you need to say about that

Don't mention about writing other girls or "plan B" or anything, she will only take it the wrong way

B


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
My thoughts at the moment are:-

Have her meet me in Kiev, I will book 2 hotel rooms, stay for 1 night only.

The following day fly to Kharkov with her, I will book the apartment.

If things don't work out she is in her home town and i am in contact with other ladies from there.

Would this work?


That could be an option, although it would be a bit expensive because you will need two single rooms and they are about double price in Kiev compared to other cities. also you have to pay for her tickets to Kiev and back to Kharkov. Also you would have to pay for her taxi to the airport, back to the hotel, and again to the airport the next day.

If you can get to Kiev in the afternoon and then fly to Kharkov at 9 pm that sounds like the best option. If you explain to her that you will be arriving late in Kharkov, you will want to stay in the hotel for the first night, she should be OK with that.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
All due respect Freebird because I like you but, this is where our ideologies make a fork in the road. Not to mention this whole scene with this particular lady reeks of something foul and it may not be. There just isn't enough communication to know.



[QUOTE=clark]From what I gathered from his posts is, even though she has made a gracious offer, he is communicating with other ladies in the area as well. If he goes to Kharkov and stays in an apartment she has set up he can easily be at her mercy.


Agreed, that is why I suggest that he book a hotel room by credit card for the first night. Then if he goes with her the next day he will have the option of choosing if he wants the apartment and how many days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
Not a good scenario IMO. If she is playing a game or if it doesn't work out, sure he can hit the road like a thief in the night, but then he is traveling again when he should be vacationing and meeting ladies.


Yes agreed. lets not get paranoid, but plan ahead to avoid unpleasant situations

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
Personally I would not include in plan B having to find another apartment or hotel.


He will have to do that anyways if he needs to meet another girl in another city. In any event I wouldn't want to stay in the same place if he will meet another girl, imagine #1 coming back to visit him and #2 is being entertained?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
I would have taken care of that before I had boots on the ground in Ukraine. If she is serious and wants to see him, she will go to Kiev to do it.


If she comes to Kiev then he can't jist leave, it would be totally rude. IMO he should go to Kharkov, meet and see what happens. Then if it does not work she cannot complain about taking time from work to go to Kiev etc etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
If he so chose, he could cover her expenses when she arrived. If they did hit it off he could always go back to Kharkov with her.


It will still be seen as a huge insult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
Let me try to make myself completely clear here, I am all for following one's heart but not with so many red flags, thats insanity.


Just curious Clark, how many trips over there have you made? Did you find someone? This is not a put-down or anything, just trying to guage where you are coming from. As with anything there are different opinions.


Note for you Raggs: we are not trying to rain on your hopes here, it's just a fact of life that things can go wrong.

And you can not usually tell if she is a GTG or GCG from letters, as they are very good at saying the right thing to the man.


Posted by: clark

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
Just curious Clark, how many trips over there have you made? Did you find someone? This is not a put-down or anything, just trying to guage where you are coming from. As with anything there are different opinions.

Freebird
Since it wasn't a put down, I'll answer that in the spirit you asked it.
I have never been to Ukraine so I can't give an opinion from that vantage point, nor have I attempted to. Any advice I offer is more from the relationship standpoint. I have been to Russia multiple times and am returning again this month. My experience is there. I started this endeavor over three years ago. I have communicated with many women and met several.

Yes, I have found someone and fully expect to be engaged when I return later this month (unless she kicks me to the curb). I'm no expert and have never claimed to be. When a newbie or anyone else asks advice that I have some experience with, I do offer it. It was offered to me here on this forum when I needed it and it helped me tremendously.

Quite honestly this was the first forum I found and at the time, the only place I could get some questions answered. I regret I didn't find it earlier. Thus, I do not hesitate to help if I can. Should someone not care for my particular advice, I ask that they please ignore it. There is usually a method to my madness. I don't personally know anyone on this board and I have no pleasure or glory in offering bad advice. I call it like I see it and apparently my delivery is abrasive to some. It is what it is


Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
I am sorry if i upset or offended you and i totally agree that 2 letters is not enough, I was trying to say that just because someone writes nice letters and comes up with good answers to all your questions dosn't meen that you know them. I think that you would get more of an idea what someone is really like only through meeting them.


Not upset or offended at all.... and there are some (very few) who go on one of the tours and meet someone they had never seen before and get married... but they usually do not last...

So maybe you have the very rare exception in that you found someone after two or so letters... great if you did...

But I also give financial advice to people.... and some just don't want to listen to asset allocation and want to invest their own way.... why should I waste my time in trying to explain that the way they are going is not 'good'... heck, they might have bought Google and made a mint...

So, listen to what the others have to say.... but I will not be of any help...

BTW, do you have the funds available to travel over there a lot? This could be what you have in your future if you make trips this quick and do not 'click'...


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by clark
Freebird
Since it wasn't a put down, I'll answer that in the spirit you asked it.
I have never been to Ukraine so I can't give an opinion from that vantage point, nor have I attempted to. Any advice I offer is more from the relationship standpoint. I have been to Russia multiple times and am returning again this month. My experience is there. I started this endeavor over three years ago. I have communicated with many women and met several.

Yes, I have found someone and fully expect to be engaged when I return later this month (unless she kicks me to the curb). I'm no expert and have never claimed to be. When a newbie or anyone else asks advice that I have some experience with, I do offer it. It was offered to me here on this forum when I needed it and it helped me tremendously.

I call it like I see it and apparently my delivery is abrasive to some. It is what it is


No worries, no offence. Good luck on your trip!

I only mentioned that I didn't agree with the idea of having her meet somewhere else, as I learned the hard way that once you bring the girl somewhere you are more or less "stuck" with them, it is extremely difficult and embarrassing {at least to me} to try to tell the girl:

"Look, I know that you have taken your summer holiday and spent money to come and meet me, but we are just not going to click"

{It would have helped if she had been more honest about smoking, her expectations etc.}


I also had some lessons about renting apartments. One place we rented seemed to check out, clean, had A/C, parking, cable TV etc. Only one thing we forgot to check out - THE BED! It had no mattress!!! {Only a box spring} When we came back to the room in the evening to find this out, the owner suddenly got very stupid and she couldn't understand the difference between a mattress and a box spring.

I was p*****d because I had paid in advance for 2 days, but left after 1 night. No refunds of course - buyer beware....


Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird

I also had some lessons about renting apartments. One place we rented seemed to check out, clean, had A/C, parking, cable TV etc.


OK, you inadvetantly bring up another subject that has been bouncing around in my head. Cars. Do you rent a car when you are in Ukraine. I have always thought to focus on either walking, a bus or taxi, train, or flying, but have never considered renting a car.

Any thoughts guys?

later,


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt235
OK, you inadvetantly bring up another subject that has been bouncing around in my head. Cars. Do you rent a car when you are in Ukraine. I have always thought to focus on either walking, a bus or taxi, train, or flying, but have never considered renting a car.

Any thoughts guys?

later,


Personally I hate to be without my car - that's just me. There are car rental places in Ukraine, they are a bit pricey though - about $40 - $50 per day.
I was staying in Simferopol Crimea, but did lots of travel to Yalta, Sevastopol, Balaklava, etc on the Black Sea. {about 30 - 50 miles away} To get a Taxi to Yalta or Sevastopol is about $30 - $35 each way so a car made sense. It also allows you to take a bag for an overnight stay and not have to look for a hotel right away to dump your bags. I usually have a bunch of stuff, towels, camera, snacks, etc so it's another hassle to have to lug everything around without a car.

If you were only going to be in Kiev it might make sense to just use the Metro or walk.

As some have posted the traffic is a bit chaotic there, but if you have some experience in crazy big-city traffic {and nerves of steel! } you can manage it, if you will be driving with a girl that speaks some english she can translate some things for you {if you get stopped by the militia - they do random pull-overs}

You will need to get your international Drivers Licence before you go though - it's basically just a translated copy of your regular licence.


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird

I don't know how many trips Clark has made, but Chris has been quite a few.
There are some things you should know about apartments.

1.) They are cheaper and more convienient than hotels, as Chris says this is the better way to go - but:

2.) Sometimes the people who offer to connect you with a "nice apartment" take you to a place that is rather crummy

3.) The owner of the apartment usually will only rent it for a minimum of 3 or 4 days in summertime, so you don't want to make a commitment until you see it.

4.) The locks & plumbing in Ukraine can be rather tricky, you may need someone to explain to you how to open the triple locks or how to start up the gas on the hot water tank. I wouldn't want to be puzzled by that on my first night, I only want a hot shower and a nice bed.

5.) Some of the apartments have no WORKING A/C, so I always want to check on that before I take the place.

6.) The apartment is often connected to another house etc. so if you arrive at 10:30 at night, wait to pick up your bags, get a taxi and find the apartment you might be waking the landlord up at midnight to get in {and he/she speaks no english}

7.) It will be far better for you as a non-Russian speaker to come to the apartment during the day, with the girl & interpreter so that they can explain to you anything you need to know.
{There was a trip report by Rasberry not understanding the lock, getting locked out of his apartment, having to call the manager etc}



Chris I agree with you except I would go the safe route and take the hotel for one night only.





B


I agree with you Freebird, but what I would do in this situation is still take an apartment, but organise my own, and not let someone else I hardly know do it for me. My first trip was to Kharkov, I organised everything myself. This enabled me to ditch the lady I went to meet after 2 days and use Plan B, it worked for me. If she had arranged things it would have been much harder for me to do that.

However, if I was going on this trip instead of Raggs, I would know a lot lot more about this lady by now, a lot of the grey areas would have already been covered and I would have answers for them, but that is the valuable experience that you gain after you have made a couple of trips.

I think Raggs needs to be speaking to this lady more, and via the phone and getting a good feel about her and finding out what he can about what she is like as a person, I would certainly not be making plans to visit anyone unless I had been having regular phone calls with her first, newbie or not, that is just plain common sense IMHO.

Chris


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
I agree with you Freebird, but what I would do in this situation is still take an apartment, but organise my own, and not let someone else I hardly know do it for me. My first trip was to Kharkov, I organised everything myself. This enabled me to ditch the lady I went to meet after 2 days and use Plan B, it worked for me. If she had arranged things it would have been much harder for me to do that.

However, if I was going on this trip instead of Raggs, I would know a lot lot more about this lady by now, a lot of the grey areas would have already been covered and I would have answers for them, but that is the valuable experience that you gain after you have made a couple of trips.

I think Raggs needs to be speaking to this lady more, and via the phone and getting a good feel about her and finding out what he can about what she is like as a person, I would certainly not be making plans to visit anyone unless I had been having regular phone calls with her first, newbie or not, that is just plain common sense IMHO.

Chris


You are dead right about more communication! Even if it is difficult to understand by phone, at least sending e-mails by web-translator is better than going in cold.

The only thing that I wondered is if he didn't use her help but did it himself that she would take offence? -like he does not trust her.

And if he shows up at 11pm or midnight I don't think an apartment would be a good option on the first night, unless the landlord is prepared to stay up and wait.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

About cars .... DON'T DO IT. If you get in an accident you will come out the loser and possibly more. How can you explain your side of the story if you can't speak the language? How much money will you have to pay to the police and/or to the owner car or property you damaged? The drivers of the FSU are horrible and take risks all the time.

About your meeting ... She may say she doesn't have the money to meet you in Kiev which may be true. Meet her in her home town and then go to Kiev if all works out. Be a gentleman and pay for it. A train ride can't be that expense or long. Make your own plans and reservations. You're in an odd situation with a time crunch. Think of this as a vacation with a guide because you really don't know her. If she starts to ask you to buy her expensive things, then end the relationship or tell her no you won't buy her this gift in a polite way.


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
You are dead right about more communication! Even if it is difficult to understand by phone, at least sending e-mails by web-translator is better than going in cold.


Yes true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebird
The only thing that I wondered is if he didn't use her help but did it himself that she would take offence? -like he does not trust her.


A possibility, but getting to know her a lot better first would get around that worry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebird
And if he shows up at 11pm or midnight I don't think an apartment would be a good option on the first night, unless the landlord is prepared to stay up and wait.


My first FSU jaunt landed me in Kharkov at 1am in the morning, this was after a long wait at the airport because they lost my bags and an even longer drive, but yes, you guessed it, my landlord was waiting up for me (I hasten to add, that I had arranged everything back at home before the trip mind you)

I guess it all comes down to how confident you are as a person,and in your own abilities, if you want your hand holding then definitely a hotel is the way to go, if you do things your way and bugger the problems then do what is right for you.


Posted by: Raggs

Hello everyone!

I did not expect so much help and i am very greatfull.

I talked to the lady for about 3 hours today using skype and web cams she had her friend there as an interpeter because of her poor english, the friend was not really needed, the lady speeks better english than me, We talked alot about what each other was looking for in a relationship and it seemed to go really well. It's the first time i have tried skype and i thought it was very good, We talked about the meeting and the fact that she was pushing for her to rent the apartment. She told me that her parents own the apartment and the reason she wants me to stay there is because it will not cost anything, She has told me that her parents own a number of apartments in the Ukraine. We also talked about the fact that after meeting in person either one of us might not feel that we were right for each other and she was really good about it. She said if that is the case then she would help me to find somewhere else to stay and we would part as friends, We have agreed
to try talk to each other everyday so we can learn more about each other.


Thankyou all for your help.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingToRussia
About cars .... DON'T DO IT. If you get in an accident you will come out the loser and possibly more. How can you explain your side of the story if you can't speak the language? How much money will you have to pay to the police and/or to the owner car or property you damaged? The drivers of the FSU are horrible and take risks all the time.


I would have to say that I agree with your advice GTR, I would not advise anyone theree unless you have already been there and are sure you can managa

I would not recommend driving to anyone on your first trip, I didn't drive there until my third trip. I understand Russian pretty well, which is vital when talking to militia or understanding some roadsigns. Also I have nerves of steel when driving, and drive proffesionally over here.

If someone has been over there before, seen the condition of the roads and the way they drive - well then they could think about it.

The car rental does include liability.


Posted by: Sparky114

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggs
Hello everyone!

I did not expect so much help and i am very greatfull.

I talked to the lady for about 3 hours today using skype and web cams she had her friend there as an interpeter because of her poor english, the friend was not really needed, the lady speeks better english than me, We talked alot about what each other was looking for in a relationship and it seemed to go really well. It's the first time i have tried skype and i thought it was very good, We talked about the meeting and the fact that she was pushing for her to rent the apartment. She told me that her parents own the apartment and the reason she wants me to stay there is because it will not cost anything, She has told me that her parents own a number of apartments in the Ukraine. We also talked about the fact that after meeting in person either one of us might not feel that we were right for each other and she was really good about it. She said if that is the case then she would help me to find somewhere else to stay and we would part as friends, We have agreed
to try talk to each other everyday so we can learn more about each other.


Thankyou all for your help.



Well Rags,

I must congratulate you on moving to the most Important phase of your new adventure

With the ability to talk to and see your lady in person will give you far more than letters, e-mails, and pictures will ever do. Communication in this adventure is the biggest key element

Just to give you some indication i talk with my fiancee twice a day and SMS and e-mail, ok i am lucky that i can communicate with my fiancee very well as she is an English Translator and linguist by proffession so for us it has never been an issue to talk about things.

Good luck, and keep going IMHO you are on the right road. just make sure you know a lot more about your lady before you step on that plane, i am sure you have much to talk about and many questions to ask

Ok i must go and continue to clean all the House top to bottom

Elena My fiancee arrives tonight at heathrow for 2 weeks so got to get my act together Then its back to Russia for another 2 weeks of somthing we do not get in this country and hot


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc

I guess it all comes down to how confident you are as a person,and in your own abilities, if you want your hand holding then definitely a hotel is the way to go, if you do things your way and bugger the problems then do what is right for you.


Haha! I don't consider it as hand-holding, but personally I would be willing to pay the extra $20 - $25 bucks for the night in a hotel just to be sure that the room was clean, comfortable WITH HOT WATER, and waiting when I got there


That being said, It would seem like the situation is different now.


Quote: