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Russian Education -vs- American

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Posted by: Dyan

Hello!

This is my first real post, aside from a post in the introduction thread, so please be gentle.

I'm curious how a Russian university degree compares to an American degree? Are they basically equivalent? I ask because it seems that nearly every single woman on these personals sites has a University degree. Tho I love the idea of universal education, it'd seem to me the value, or quality rather, would suffer a little.

And please, I mean no offense to anyone, if this seems a little condescending, just chalk it up to American ignorance.



Posted by: Stirlitz

Frankly speaking, most of the university degrees are in fact just college ones.

Before the fall of the Soviet Union we only had one State University in each big city and a host of job-specific colleges. The university taught general subjects such as physics, history, biology (there were respective departments called faculties), its graduates were basically multifunctional specialists who could work as teachers, research fellows, scientists, etc and knew a lot of things. And numerous colleges took care of more specific professions for the industry: engineers, book-keepers, physicians, etc, who only knew their particular job and did not know much outside. If you compare the curriculum of the institutions, you could notice that universities had common subjects while colleges had a lot of special courses dedicated to a particular branch of industry, etc.

After the fall of the Soviet Union there was a lot of turmoil and lack of rule from above. As a result EACH education institution did what they pleased. The most innocent action was to rename themselves a UNIVERSITY or ACADEMY. Actually it sounds ridiculous. For me, a polytechnical or medical university is an oxymoron because a university is about universal subjects, not particulars. This also contradicts to the definition of the word university:

"A university is an institution where students study for degrees and where academic research is done". (Collins)

"Âûñøåå ó÷åáíî-íàó÷íîå çàâåäåíèå, îáúåäèíÿþùåå â ñâîåì ñîñòàâå íåñêîëüêî ôàêóëüòåòîâ, íà êîòîðûõ ïðåäñòàâëåíà ñîâîêóïíîñòü ðàçëè÷íûõ äèñöèïëèí, ñîñòàâëÿþùèõ îñíîâû íàó÷íîãî çíàíèÿ (institution of higher scientific education comprising several departments that represent the totality of disciplines forming the foundation of science)" (Ojegov)

It is not an institution that trains professionals for particular jobs like dental surgery or toy making or computer networks. It is an institution that is all about science. At least, that is how it was in the USSR.

So, all of the so-called universities are fake ones. They are impostors Read 'college' instead.



Posted by: sidney

The ukrainian universities do a good job with math and physics. My wife is going to college in america and was able to get her m & p couses accepted with her ukrainian degree. Much of what she uses was learned in high school. She had her course transcript from ukraine translated and documented with a company here in hopes of it being used toward a job but no luck. Probably had to due to the fact that it was a shipbuilding degree and there's not much of that happening where I live. There are cases where degrees have been purchased in ukraine. With enough money you can buy most anything. In her ukrainian college they have a program called red diploma where the top student gets their diploma printed in red ink. One student paid enogh $ and was able to buy this. The student that was top complained and that year they gave out two red diplomas.
My wife didn't push herself to get great grades in ukraine because they didn't seem to matter. The only way to get a good job was to have connections with a boss in that industry.
Sid



Posted by: Cheburashka

Welcome to the forum Dyan. You will find that Russians are “generally” more educated and better read than Americans. Of course, someone will be quick to point out their “brilliant nephew” or someone like that. But take the average degreed Russian and place them with the average degreed American and it’s ugly for us.

I work for an educational software company as my career. I deal with academia all day long. There are myriads of people who leave college reading books on a 4th grade level and yet running with a football like a gazelle. You won’t find anyone in Russia who walks out with a degree simply because they can shoot hoops well. We have lost our minds in this country.

And degrees from “accredited” online universities can be bought easily here. A few years ago a friend of mine and me were throwing around the idea of buying doctorate degrees. We thought it might be cool to have a PhD after our names. The cost: $1,000 USD. Luckily we came to our sanity.

If a man finds intelligence sexy, look for a Russian bride. Unfortunately, most American men are simply looking at the beautiful face and hot body.



Posted by: redhawk

most,but not all. i agree cheb.



Posted by: Dyan

Thanks everyone for the info, that really helps. I've been lurking around long enough to realize that on average a Russian woman would have a better education then an American, but just needed some help with the comparison. Much appreciated!



Posted by: matt235

Welcome Dyan. I, like you, am rather new at this stuff, but it is pretty straight forward (except for the overwhelming amount of great information!)...you should be cruising along smartly in no time.

I have to agree with Cheb on this one. Most American degrees pale in comparision to the people I have met from the FSU. For that matter, degreed individuals from nearly every other "civilized" country are able to run intelligent circles around the average US degree holder. (Just not with a basketball!)

You need to also remember that the US has this mandated impregnation of capitalism in its youth and makes one focus more on how to run with a football or trade stocks or fall into a corporate black hole. In other countries, a university or college degree is almost expected as the norm with less focus on making the all might dollar. Along with that is the fact that it is actually financially achievable in most cases unlike a lot of the things that are happening in the US right now (how much does it cost to send a child to college these days?)

One last thing before I quit badgering you with this information. It seems that the most popular degree for the American Woman (AW) is the "Mrs." degree. Yes, they go to college, find some schmuck in law school that will take care of them for the rest of their life, while they shoot out a couple of kids and basically ignore the guy after the last kid is born. Oh yeah, let's not even go into the physical beauty aspect of all of this!

Sorry I guess I can be a bit cynical from time to time, but from one newbie to another, you will see some AW bashing on this site from time to time...and it is quite often justified. I got fed up with AW's about 6 or 7 years ago and haven't dated one since. My friends always comment that "Matt doesn't buy American!" Too true.

I hope I didn't scare you off or anything, this place is great and has more answers than you have questions. Don't be afraid to ask.

Welcome aboard.



Posted by: Spakoyna

My comment is I guess it depends on what circles you run in. My experience with quite a few Russians is their education seems to be memorizational. Many don't seem to be able to think out of the box. Teaching by association is almost impossible! Yeah, there are alot of stupid,lazy Americans. But they have their share across the pond as well!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheburashka
Welcome to the forum Dyan. You will find that Russians are “generally” more educated and better read than Americans. Of course, someone will be quick to point out their “brilliant nephew” or someone like that. But take the average degreed Russian and place them with the average degreed American and it’s ugly for us.

I work for an educational software company as my career. I deal with academia all day long. There are myriads of people who leave college reading books on a 4th grade level and yet running with a football like a gazelle. You won’t find anyone in Russia who walks out with a degree simply because they can shoot hoops well. We have lost our minds in this country.

And degrees from “accredited” online universities can be bought easily here. A few years ago a friend of mine and me were throwing around the idea of buying doctorate degrees. We thought it might be cool to have a PhD after our names. The cost: $1,000 USD. Luckily we came to our sanity.

If a man finds intelligence sexy, look for a Russian bride. Unfortunately, most American men are simply looking at the beautiful face and hot body.




Posted by: Stirlitz

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt235
In other countries, a university or college degree is almost expected as the norm
Right. It’s funny but even though workers with no degree were paid better than those who graduated from a university, it was generally believed in the Soviet Union that higher education was a must for everybody. All parents did their best to shove their child to a college. It did not matter which and if the child cared for the profession and ever worked according to it later but the main objective was to be ‘educated’. By the way it was free and even up to day there are many opportunities to study for free. For some reason, degrees are automatically required by many employers. Even though it does not matter at all. So it was and still is important here to have a degree (let me stress: a degree, any degree) to be considered an educated person and be eligible for many jobs. The funny part is what you would do at work had very, very little to do with what you were taught in your college if anything at all. But it’s the custom. No practical importance.



Posted by: disculmawsu

My interested in Soviet education and Russian education comes a result of my interest in Soviet and Russian science.
One thing a I noticed is the number of second and third tier Russian scientists that come out of pedagogical institutes which almost never happens in the US.
My sense is that cheating and quid pro quo activities are more common. I had a conversation with a woman in Arkangelsk who very proud that she "earned her grades and did not buy them". In addition, there are several allusions to inappropriate relationships between male teachers and female students in several films which suggests these relationships were/are quite common.
It is also my understanding the Russian educational system in many ways follows the European model of high competitive examinations followed placing the individual into a particular lifetrack (e.g. common laborer, skilled worker and college/university/institute tracks). This is much different in the US where all you need is a high school diploma).
It is also my understanding that Russian students receive their general education in high school and post-secondary education is more specific to a particular discipline or area of study.
For example, my friend O placed into a business institute and is not very happy with her job in business.



Posted by: Legal

Russian education system
Higher education structure

http://www.hse.ru/lingua/en/rus-ed.html

_________________________________
Olga (Legal's wife)



Posted by: Legal

A comparative article about the education systems that is written by a professor and director of the Laboratory of Molecular Genetics at George Mason University Valery Soyfer.
_______________________________________
Quote:
At the second half of the century, prompted by a vigorous pursuit of culture, science and arts, a unique system of education at so called gymnasias (i.e. schools of the highest grade preparing for universities) began forming in Russia. Gymnasias gave their pupils an extensive training in the sciences as well as European languages, the latter opening Russians access to Western culture and science. By the end of the century a system of industrial schools offering a first-grade training to those who wanted to use their talents in the field of industry had been formed. On the whole the Russian system of secondary education surpassed in quality of training the educational systems existing then in Europe and America. Attempts at reforming the now present Russian educational system should preserve the best features of the Russian 1. Freedom in choice of subjects for study, from the secondary school to a university. Each course earns a student a certain number of credits and in order to get a certificate of education, a student has to gain a set number of points credit/hours and pass a set number of examinations. That is why students take on subjects they are interested in and avoid subjects they are not interested in. The absence of a set system of knowledge enveloping what should be known to any educated person, as existed in Russia for more than a century, makes many university professors speak of the importance of imposing on the secondary school a so called "core curriculum," or an obligatory set of knowledge, which is aimed at improving the situation when a person claiming to be educated is ignorant of so many subjects that a professional looks like a twisted tree, being well-grown in one direction but clipped and undeveloped in all other directions. The traditional freedom of choice is a result of struggle for personal freedom in all areas, subjects for study included. Freedom in itself is excellent, but the cost of its extremes are self-evident. The price of freedom of choice is a low level of education.

2. The second causal circumstance the freedom of teachers, who are at liberty to teach only what they themselves consider necessary and important. First, any university professor can work out any course of study he has invented himself and he can teach it if it has been approved by his or her colleagues at a university (at some universities a prior approval by other professors is not required). Second, a professor has the right to choose any textbook from a large number offered by publishing houses. Third, from a chosen textbook any part can be omitted, if a professor isn't well acquainted with it or doesn't think it important. If a professor has acquired permission to teach a given course from a school or university administration, everything else is up to him.

3. The great merit of American schools and universities lies in the fact that all examinations are taken in written form only, be it examinations taken at some point of a course of study of final examinations at the end of a course. No oral examinations, no oral questioning students of their knowledge of a subject, especially in the presence of other students. This advantage has a negative side to it, which may seem negligible at first sight, but which serious analysis shows to be substantial. Again I want my readers to understand me correctly. Written examinations when students receive lists of the same questions and fill in the empty spaces left with brief answers have many positive aspects as all students are put in the same position. Any prejudices on the part of an examiner are excluded as are any grounds for complaints about an examiner's prejudice against a student's race, religion, etc. (the number of people squabbling in courts of law is growing in America more and more rapidly, being parallel to the growing number of lawyers and becoming a tragedy for that beautiful country, but this is a different topic). A student puts down in his questionnaire what he wants to and has nobody to complain against. If a student does make a complaint, a committee is set up which examines what has been put down and then makes a decision. It is simple. It is democratic. It is practical. In Russia teachers at all levels of education (at schools and universities alike) put questions to students in class, make students solve mathematical problems on blackboards in the presence of other students, and nobody raises any objections on moral or other grounds. At American universities practices of this kind are completely excluded; nobody has the right to put a student in an awkward situation or make results of intermediate or final examinations public. A teacher cannot test a student's knowledge at will, to say nothing of arbitrary questions at oral examinations when a teacher can see that a student is weak at some particular part of the course and ask him more questions about it.

4. At most American schools and at all universities students are not put into any particular class or group. They are free to choose subjects and teachers and then take lessons. For example, to get a certificate of secondary education in Washington, a student should have a mathematical subject for each of his last four years of study and subjects in physics, biology and chemistry during his last three years of study. But as concerns, for instance, mathematics, a student is not obliged to study everything -- algebra, geometry, elementary differential calculus. His to choose are several dozen different mathematical courses with less material; a student has to have just one of them at each of his last four years of study. If a student does not study all mathematics, it is his business. The same with physics and other main subjects. All other subjects are still simpler -- everything depends on the student's initiative. But if a student chooses subjects, he cannot establish a permanent peer group to work with. A student chooses courses and teachers and is free to move about. For one of his lessons he comes to an open classroom where the teacher he has chosen delivers a lecture, for another lesson he goes to another classroom. So all notion of group is lost, as there are no teams about. There are individual students who are strangers to each other, moving from one classroom to another. If there is an acquaintance in one classroom, he is greeted with a couple of sentences, while the others sitting there would be totally ignored as strangers. This does not surprise anyone. But this is destroying a very important thing that group teaching has: a group is a family where people help each other, know each other, and it is acceptable to announce the results of a test before such a group in order to prick the conscience of a poor pupil (or his ambition, as might be). Yet in the U.S., to do so is to commit something like strip-tease, which could easily be followed by the students demanding the removal of a teacher guilty of disclosure of personal data -- and having their demand met. And since group teaching is absent, students are robbed of an important part not just of their social life, but of a more efficient method of making knowledge reach every individual, and thus the advantages of competitiveness, which, paradoxically, Americans care so much about.

To end this part of my article, I must mention that though the above is true for the majority of American schools and colleges, there are still exceptions. In rich suburbia of big cities, and in some other places, excellent schools exist where teachers are not afraid to call the student to the blackboard and ask him questions there (according to the tradition of a particular school, and according to the rules approved by the parents' committee -- by the way, parents' committees are exceptionally influential bodies throughout America); where the requirements of knowledge in the obligatory set of subjects are higher than the average American level; where the students, though also moving from one classroom to another, know each other personally, because the number of pupils is small, and because they all participate in extensive extra-curricula activities; so the ties of school fraternity hold for life. These excellent schools provide students for the best universities, and are extremely popular. But my article deals with ordinary public schools. Another exception is private schools, in most of which there are permanent classes of students, obligatory sets of subjects, and many other typical features reminding one of the former Russian gymnasias. But the number of private schools is small, and so is the number of their graduates, and a true American schools looks quite different.

So, comparing the systems of American and Russian education, and the tradition formed within the two, I state that what riches Russia possesses lie in its traditional system of secondary education that should be preserved. And within this system, there are rare precious gems -- our best teachers, born with a gift for teaching, whose intellect, talent and self-denial contributed to the heritage of the nation and should continue to do so.

I must make the same reservation about the most prestigious private universities such as Harvard University, University of Pennsylvania, Yale University and others. Last year, one year of study at a university of this kind cost from twenty-six to thirty-two thousand dollars. Few can afford this education. Besides, the competition for admittance is tough (one has, first of all, to graduate from a prestigious high school, have good results at examinations and be distinguished in some special way, like winning a national award, prize etc.). So I intend to discuss not these universities and their established rules, but the bulk of the American system of education, the 1,900-odd universities in the U.S.

MORE ARGUMENTS IN FAVOR OF SUPPORT OF EDUCATION IN RUSSIA
A year ago, the Washington Post published the results of an opinion poll conducted by the Carnegie Foundation on the conditions and prospects of teaching. The poll covered over 20,000 university lecturers teaching in 14 countries and took some two years to complete sixty-seven percent of teachers in Hong Kong, fifty-five percent of Dutch teachers, and forty-two to forty-four percent of their German and American colleagues considered their salary "good" or even "excellent." Among Russian respondents, the share of similar answers came to just about 4% (and I believe they were not exactly sincere). Only Israeli and Chilean university teachers saw themselves as still worse off.

However, Russian university teaching staff have more appetite for teaching than anyone else in the world: more than sixty percent of them named teaching as the chief incentive for working in an educational institution. While the percentage of Americans giving the same answer was also close to this figure, only twenty to thirty percent of the Israeli, German, Swedish, Japanese and Dutch professors, lecturers and teaching assistants saw their chief interest in teaching, and the rest of them would rather have engaged in pure scientific research. This means that in Russia, university faculty consist mainly not of people who turn to teaching because they failed to succeed in science, and not of those who dream of joining full-time research again. They are people who teach because in their hearts they have a true interest for this kind of activity. Also, slightly over sixty percent of Russian teaching staff said that their occupation enjoys the respect of society (Russia came sixth on this point, after Brazil, England, Korea, Japan and the U.S.A.), though only twenty percent though that the country's leaders take heed of their opinion in making decisions.

In all countries except Korea, university teaching staff note that secondary school graduates are inadequately educated. Only Korean professors (more than half of them) believed that secondary schools provide a sufficient level of education to their graduates to continue study at universities. In contrast to this, only twenty-five percent of Russians called would-be university students adequately prepared for the requirements of university studying. In their opinion, two thirds of new students are not ready to study at a university.

However, here one might consult the results obtained by Prof. Stevenson, who make a comparative study of American and Asian schoolchildren. His data mitigates the harsh self-criticism piled up by Russian educational specialists. Prof. Stevenson's research has shown, for example, that American children just beginning their first school year generally read quite well, averaging better than the Chinese, the Taiwanese, or the Japanese, though there is much individual difference. However, by the time they reach the fifth year of study they completely lose this advantage. The first-formers in Beijing are much better prepared to study mathematics than little Americans of the same age, and by the time they reach the fifth form the children from Chicago lag even further behind the Chinese, the Japanese and the Taiwanese.

At the same time, one should bear in mind the fact that American parents (mainly mothers had been polled) are convinced that their children are born gifted in every respect, that they excel at their schools and, on the whole, are the best in the world. There are far fewer mothers in China, Japan and Taiwan (5-8 times, to quote) who possess such self-conceit. This is a typically American trait, aptly noticed by Stevenson,and I believe it to be one that also differentiates American parents from Russian ones. Absence of any parental self-conceit promotes a more realistic, more demanding attitude towards fruitful children school studies, and prevents making children into conceited snobs.

The foremost wish of children from the East, it emerges, is to have an education. Chicago children mostly want to be rich or to be handed opportunity and wealth. I think that in many respects Russian children and their parents would sooner respond like the Chinese and the Japanese, rather than the American. And this gives us hope that with support given to education in Russia, this country can still retain the leading positions it has held in education and science throughout the past century and a half, preserving the unique national features that ensured for the country of Dostoyevsky, Chekhov and Tolstoy, Musorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov and Tchaikovsky, as well as Lobachevsky, Mendeleyev and Koltsov, a place among the world leaders.system of education rather than replicate the American system.

Everyone is fed up with the endless incantational citation of the fact that when the Soviets had driven their first sputnik into space and when Yuri Gagarin's orbit of the Earth had been successfully accomplished, the USA government took urgent measures for the American system of education to catch up with the Soviet one (that is, what was left of the educational system of pre-revolutionary Russia) and largely succeeded in that educational race.

The echoes of old accomplishments are still reverberating today. When three or four years ago thousands of Russian scientists moved to the West, science and education in Europe and America were presented with an influx of highly trained personnel. Russian professionals began competing successfully with those who had in the last decades acquired the reputation of the best workers available - the Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Iranian. Now you can come across Russian professors in any American university, I know even of entire university departments where newcomers from Russia hold all the positions and where before a faculty meeting they discuss in what language it should be conducted - in English or in Russian.

MERITS AND DEMERITS OF WESTERN EDUCATION
The American higher education is respected all over the world. The training of university students in America, with its vibrancy and ability to keep abreadst of the latest scientific discoveries and technological inventions, did not prompt criticism until quite recently. We cannot but admire the widespread ramifications of the American university educational system, which comprises 1,964 universities (compare this figure with less than one hundred in Russia!) and 1,416 colleges with two-year highly specialized courses. These figures do not call for further comment. If we add to them several thousand one-year vocational schools, then what is there to discuss and argue about?

But in spite of all these evident accomplishments, troubled voices make themselves heard today. It is becoming more and more clear that taken as a whole the American secondary school gives only a superficial knowledge of subjects studied, and universities have to devote a large part of the first years of study to remedial teaching. Besides, the disparity of knowledge among students is too great. Fairly good knowledge of some subjects and unacceptably poor knowledge of other subjects is is the rule at both the collective and individual level; that is, every student has a specific set of subjects known well and subjects hardly known at all. These disparities are caused by an Anglo-American system of electives, which allow a student to follow the principle of "I study what I want to and I don't study what I don't want to, that's my business." It is true that a student must take certain compulsory courses in each of the main subjects such as physics, mathematics, chemistry and biology. Even so a student still has the right to choose both teachers and varieties of a compulsory course, so it is possible for one to complete a course in, say, physics which does not even touch upon theories fundamental to the discipline and leaves a student simply less than completely ignorant.

Here I'd like to share with my readers the impression I received from seven years of lecturing in American universities and from discussions held by thinking American professors concerned with the situation. It is beyond doubt that Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and about two dozen other universities attract well-prepared candidates from all over the world and, after a strenuous selection, admit only the best of them. However, even professors of these universities speak of an evident fall in the level of training of first-year students, which has to be still more noticeable in the other two thousand universities. The best professors and leaders of science and education in America are apprehensive of a general decline in the educational level of young Americans, especially young university students, as well as a nearly complete ignorance of social sciences and humanities among those who study the natural, physical etc. and applied sciences. Some young people, when in primary school, gravitate to computers and forget about all else; others at the same age decide to become neurobiologists or surgeons and study nothing but subjects pertaining to their future occupation. Some American experts in education say that today about eighty-five percent of American boys and girl are not acquainted with elementary arithmetic and unable to add or subtract without calculators. Some experts are alarmed by the fact that television prevents children from reading books to the degree that those familiar books with which the older generation has lived their whole life have been taken out of print and moved to computer disks. If a child wants to read a classic, he takes a Shakespeare disk and sits at his computer.

I don't want to grumble or speak ill of American students. They are clever and tenacious in their aims and they work much more than Russian students. But they work only in their chosen field, and moreover, they are depressingly lacking in what is called a general social education, which is almost totally absent. To receive a course of study, a student must pay a large sum, so he tries to get the utmost possible for his/her money. From my experience at teaching, I can tell that in every group of students there are only two or three with poor results, and several dozen whose results are excellent. I am quite satisfied by the results my students achieve on the whole. But in every group of students I come across one and the same thing; that is, if I digress from the textbook or the subject, I see that students' knowledge is fragmentary and limited in scope. As I now understand it, the main reason accounting for this fact are the following circumstances.




Posted by: Stirlitz

Quote:
Originally Posted by disculmawsu
In addition, there are several allusions to inappropriate relationships between male teachers and female students in several films which suggests these relationships were/are quite common.
Women sometimes did (and still do) buy their way to degrees, jobs/positions, etc this way.



Posted by: matt235

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stirlitz
Women sometimes did (and still do) buy their way to degrees, jobs/positions, etc this way.


This is no different in the US. I dated a girl here in the states years back that had a competition with her sister to see which one could graduate from Texas (the university) before the other. She said flat out that she bought her degree using sex. According to her, she was "sleeping" with 2 or 3 professors every week. She finished (undergrad degree) in 3.5 years. Her sister beat her at 3 years. I guess her sister was better at certain aspects of marketing!

We didn't date very long.



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