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Off limit topics?
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Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

*If this belongs in the culture area please move it*

Ok, I consider myself somewhat educated on cultural differences but I made the mistake during a conversation with a Ukrainian women of mentioning the Orange Revolution in reference to her saying how she lived a boring life (compared to me) and I said how she lived through the Orange Revolution and it was history.

Well she completely flipped out and said how she hated the Orange Revolution and it was a lot of crazy people and awful. She was against the re-election and she also went on at great length how the economy was ruined as a result. She said things were better before the Orange Revolution.

That being said are there any other topics I should not even mention to FSU women in a conversation?

Posted by: alfie

She must of been pro Russian Ukrainian. Is she from the east side of Ukraine ?

Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

She is from the Southeast portion of Ukraine.

Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyLaRue

She is from the Southeast portion of Ukraine.

Well there you go then, your first mistake, find out where they are from before you go discussing things about Russia/Ukraine, remember in general Western Ukrainians are pro Ukraine and Eastern/Southern Ukrainians pro Russia, but don;t take that as a gimme

but also, never talk about politics with them until you know them better

they will hang you out to dry

Posted by: Raspberry

Mikhail Gorbechev is another controversial political topic. Yes the majority of westerners love him, and religious leaders do too......but there are some that blame him for the economic collapse of the USSR.

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Coupleof big tips for you before you start having deep and meaningfuls with any woman, or man for that matter, from the FSU or Former Eastern Bloc (FEC).

1. get to know them as a person first.
2. be prepared to give out alot of info about yourself way before you get anything decent about them.
3. if your going to discuss something about their country, try to explain that what you believe is because of where you are from and in that because of the information you have on the issue.
4. ALWAYS discuss things as though you are interested and want to learn about her POV not as though you think you know better.
5. do some reading from as many different POVs as possible before you delve into the world of foreign affairs (Politics of another country), if you don't they will make you look like a fool and you don't want that.

I have been very fortunate with the people I communicate with, they understand where I am coming from and that if I do have a "foot in mouth day" it is only because I am interested in them as people and what they believe. All topics will eventually be open for discussion, but you need to understand the person before you go in for a deep and meaningful that could be controversial.

Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

Thanks Raspberry.

Oz: It's not I was looking for a debate or anything. I mentioned it casually and took no real strong stand on the issue. Honestly politics in general bore me greatly. I don't mind talking about it but it's as interesting as watching paint dry to me and I am by no means passionate about it. Hell I never have voted before!

So for future reference most FSUers have strong opinions on political topics? Or is it just with this women? I guess what am I asking is if this is a normal reaction to mentioning an event.

Everyone else: Oh and she did bring up the dreaded topic of religion in the last letter and asked if I believed in god. I have no clue how to respond after the Orange Revolution response and is religion another hot button topic? I am not religious and tolerate those who are religious but for me I reject all forms of it.

I'm NOT saying I should lie but how to go about it without a repeat of the last conversation.

Much thanks

Posted by: deccie

I would suggest if one is going to touch a controversial subject one is much better off ASKING their opinion first before stating your own.

At least then you will know when your walking into a minefield.

Using this approach we have discussed the fall of the FSU, Gorby, Yeltsin, Putin and a lot of other sensitive issues.

I have noticed a capacity to hold seemingly contradictory opinions at times.
For example sometimes I will get a comment of "I love my President!" "later followed by "Bloode Russian government made many problems for Russian people!"

Posted by: Raspberry

I'm very much "old school"----I don't like talking politics, or for that matter,
religion, among people I don't know well.

Yet you will find people---not only in FSU, but other places---that will try to sucker you into a heated political and/or religious arguement.

Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

Thanks for the advice all.

Deccie: This is true as quite a few Russian people I've met on my travels have discussed such issues. The one Russian guy I met while on vacation after a few drinks was saying how he hates Putin and was quite animated.

Raspberry: Understandable, I guess being from a younger generation I don't mind if people/strangers want to talk about it (in a civil matter) but not a fan of a debate for the sole purpose of trying to convert someone into agreeing with you.

I guess I'll just be more careful not to mention certain things and play the psychiatrist role and say "what do you think about it". :P

Posted by: deccie

As a general rule be careful criticising Russia in any way.

In general that is off limits unless you are clearly given an invitation. A Russian is allowed to criticise the country but a foreigner is immediatley suspect for doing so.

Generally Russians will feel like they are being attacked in such a situation.
Rather like some Americans and the gun debate really...

Posted by: freebird

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyLaRue

Thanks Raspberry.

So for future reference most FSUers have strong opinions on political topics? Or is it just with this women? I guess what am I asking is if this is a normal reaction to mentioning an event.

I have found that most girls there are not very interested or involved in politics, but will be offended if you are critical of Russia/Ukraine. {the same way that Americans seem to get more offended if Europeans are critical of the USA}

Everyone else: Oh and she did bring up the dreaded topic of religion in the last letter and asked if I believed in god. I have no clue how to respond after the Orange Revolution response and is religion another hot button topic? I am not religious and tolerate those who are religious but for me I reject all forms of it.

Much thanks

I would take this as a warning sign. Most of the girls are Orthodox, but very rarely go to church. I was never asked about religion. If she asks you about it she may consider it more important, could cause friction later. I think some girls would not mind if you never went with her to her church {if she goes at all}, but would not be comfortable marrying someone who does not believe in god.

Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

deccie: Oh I never bash someones country to their face. I might have an opinion but I keep it to myself. Thanks for the info though and I will be sure not to bring up the country even casually (or mention something in the news)

freebird: Good point. It's been a 2 weeks or so and if she is already asking about religion it could be a warning sign. I replied back to the religious question and said I do not celebrate Easter but respect those who do.

I mean no sweat I guess since the point is to weed out the ones I'm not compatible with and better to know now than to waste time and money in the long run right?

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Johnny, in cases of a neutral topic like religion, no country owns religion (I could go further but I'll hold back

) just tell her straight that way they can't come back at you with anything later. If your not religious but tolerate it with others then say that, seriously why should we get this info like this and not a prospective partner. This isn't for RWs in particular it's for any person especially one your in a relationship of sorts with.

As can be seen I'll discuss anything with anyone but I agree with Deccie, get their opinion first. Even if you bring the topic up ask what do they think about it before you give your opinion. Remember your talking about their country.

Gist of my point, don't beat around the bush, say what you want to say, but be polite when saying it. If you can't say what's on your mind and your going to be worried about "hot topics" with a potential partner cause your scared of a reaction then I would ask is it worth it?

Posted by: sidney

My experience was that the reasoning for bringing up some of the topics were due to problems their friends had in a relationship. Most RW have friends or family that have gone the foreign visa route oft times with some type of problem. What I feel important is honesty when addressing these touchy topics just try being diplomatic. I discussed topics that most AW that I've dated never woulda questioned.
Sid

Posted by: Chrismc

Yes tact and diplomacy[B] usually help you a long way when dealing with RW, until you know them much better and can discuss subjects openly, but at least by then you will have some knowledege of how they feel about certain subjects so you can take that into account.

Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

Sidney: Thats a very good point about them asking. Just abnormal to me seeing how I am not used such topics coming up this quickly. Usually with AW or JW (Japanese Women) such topics come up months or later down the road.

Oz: I understand and agree it's not so much worried about a reaction (well it kinda is ha ha) it's just how to tactfully talk about it. I guess I figured if just mentioning the Orange Revolution by name (all I said was how she lived an interesting life as well since she lived through the Orange Revolution).

As stated before it resulted in a long rant and strong angry opinions (complete with devil smileys and some colourful language as well) so I figured religion would be round 2 so to speak.

I mean I know you can't talk about 9-11 or Abortions to Americans for example. I guess I was wondering if topics like the Orange Revolution and religion are the same for FSUers.

Though now I have answers from the replies on here and I agree that getting their opinion first seems to be the way to go.

Chrismc: I agree you can't go wrong with tact and diplomacy.

Posted by: disculmawsu

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyLaRue

*If this belongs in the culture area please move it*

Ok, I consider myself somewhat educated on cultural differences but I made the mistake during a conversation with a Ukrainian women of mentioning the Orange Revolution in reference to her saying how she lived a boring life (compared to me) and I said how she lived through the Orange Revolution and it was history.

Well she completely flipped out and said how she hated the Orange Revolution and it was a lot of crazy people and awful. She was against the re-election and she also went on at great length how the economy was ruined as a result. She said things were better before the Orange Revolution.

That being said are there any other topics I should not even mention to FSU women in a conversation?

Some other political topics to avoid are praising Gorby, Brezenev,Lenin and Khruschev and criticizing Stalin. Even young poeple think that Stalin was the best leader of Russia since Ivan the Terrible (ok, maybe a bit of an exaggeration). Older women may noslagic for Soviet times, especially for films.
Always

Posted by: Chrismc

Johnny

Myself and my wife discussed and still do discuss every subject there is, but even now, there are some subjects that are very upsetting for her, when you get to know a UW/RW well and she lets you in to her confidence you may come to realise what some of these people or if not them directly, families of, have gone through in the past. Some of the stories make your toes curl. It is no wonder they can get a bit heated when a Westerner sticks his foot in his mouth and opens up the perverbial can of worms.

Don't give them any ammunition to think bad of you because you are not up to speed on their particular political or religious bias, let them broach the subjects first then politely enquire what they think of such and such, you will find if you do things right and they get to trust you they will eventually open up to you, but don't try and force the issues/topics, let them come through on their own. My wife talks about certain things when she wants to, otherwise I don't push it, it is just too upsetting for her.

Chris

Posted by: BluesTraveler

Quote:

Originally Posted by deccie

As a general rule be careful criticizing Russia in any way.
In general that is off limits unless you are clearly given an invitation. A Russian is allowed to criticize the country but a foreigner is immediately suspect for doing so.
Generally Russians will feel like they are being attacked in such a situation.
Rather like some Americans and the gun debate really...

As an American I feel the same way anytime a foreigner attacks Bush. It is one thing if I don't like him or think he is stupid. But I do find it offensive when foreigners attack him. I guess it is because I have a feeling like you are attacking the American government, values, democracy, etc... Granted I may not like Bush but I do have the utmost respect for the office of the Presidency.

Posted by: clark

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyLaRue

There could be a number of possibilities here. If that is all you mentioned to her concerning the Orange Revolution, she may just be an angry person and a hothead. If thats the case, run like your ass is on fire.

It could be that she is just passionate about Ukrainian politics, just as many Americans are about their politics. If thats the case, maybe you should indulge further. She might be an intellectual attempting to engage you and pick your brain. In that case, ask her if she was offended and if not tell her your POV. Check her reaction.

It's not unusual for some topics to come up quickly. I would suggest that you don't recoil or run from them. They'll come up eventually anyway. Why prolong the inevitable? Most anyone in this search needs to get to each others core values as soon as possible. Walking on eggshells afraid of possible reactions is no way to start a relationship IMHO

Posted by: disculmawsu

Johnny,
You might praise you like about Ukraine -I always praise the Moscow metro, train service and cheap books. By doing so, you make them feel good and they are more pleasant to you.
Also, you might want to look at my experiences with women from the eastern part of Ukraine and their anti-Ukraine views.

Posted by: Chillidog

Quote:

Originally Posted by deccie

As a general rule be careful criticising Russia in any way.

In general that is off limits unless you are clearly given an invitation. A Russian is allowed to criticise the country but a foreigner is immediatley suspect for doing so.

Generally Russians will feel like they are being attacked in such a situation.
Rather like some Americans and the gun debate really...

Deccie,
good statement!!! I think it holds true for people of all countries (in general) it is OK for them to criticise their own country but get very defensive if a foriegner does this, even if they agree with them! just not a good thing IMO. Two things I always try to steer clear of is Politics and Religion, you are just opening up 'Pandora's box' at leaest until you know them better and are confident of your relationship

P.S. please lets not start the gun debate again, I might have to hurt some fellow Americans

or they may want to hurt me!!! getting to old to have my bones re-set

Posted by: Pin Boy

yes, simple praise goes a long way, especially when you are sincere about it. i recall many ukrainians asking me what i think of their city and country in a fishing for compliments/slight self conscious kind of way. it's pleasant to see their eyes light up when you mention the things you like such as the delicious food or interesting sights.

pb

Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

discul : Where is the thread(s)? I've been a lurker here for quite a while but don't recall any such threads.

If you would be so kind to direct me to the thread(s) it would be greatly appreciated.

Chill: I try to steer clear in the sense that I don't bring it up for the sake of trying to start a debate but in this case she was the one who is bringing up the topics (with the exception of me mentioning the Orange Revolution but NOT to start a debate). It just caught me offguard since we were talking about traveling, foods, friends, hobbies, and then POW! Politics and the next letter all about religion.

Clark: I agree that one should not avoid such issues but I guess for me I would not reject a woman based on their religious or political views (unless they were super radical, cult based or hate based) so for me its really a non issue. If I am asked I'll answer honestly but its by no means a deal breaker for me.

She is a passionate person from what I have seen. In the sense that she has strong passionate views as opposed to me who can watch a debate show on the cable news channels and not get riled up about it. I don't mind passionate people in general but if their life revolves around it then they are probably not a good match for me (i.e: one recent AW I dated who would rather stand on the street corner EVERY weekend with signs and protest than enjoy the weekend and spend quality time together. That and dates that consist of us going to see protest speakers at the local colleges is NOT my idea of fun.)

*Update*

I apologized to her in case I offended her, told her I was not passionate about those issues but don't have a problem with her being passionate about those issues. Oh and also took the advice given on here. I did get a reply back (a good sign) and she has backed off the religion and politics in this recent letter.

Posted by: disculmawsu

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyLaRue

discul : Where is the thread(s)? I've been a lurker here for quite a while but don't recall any such threads.

If you would be so kind to direct me to the thread(s) it would be greatly appreciated.

My experiences with ethnic Russian women in Ukraine are under AKMike's 5 weeks in Ukraine (http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...43&page=2&pp=15) at the bottom.
A very interesting book to read about interacting with Russians is From Nyet to Da by Dale Richmond. He recommends interacting with Russian in positive way (no criticizing, listening to what they say and getting to know their problems). In my estimation this critical to dealing with Russians on the personal and macrolevel.
I will have a chance this summer to see whether I can consisently put things in positive way when my friend visits me in June.
I must admit I do rather this easily because I am extremely fascinated by everything Russian (ok, I don't have a big interest in churches).
Also, have you started watching Russian films and television shows (in English) and reading Russian novels (in English)? I have this a very nice way to learn about the cultural and gives you and her friend something to talk about. My friend and I talk endlessly about the fate of actors and actresses from Soviet period.

Posted by: deccie

Quote:

Originally Posted by disculmawsu

Also, have you started watching Russian films and television shows (in English) and reading Russian novels (in English)? I have this a very nice way to learn about the cultural and gives you and her friend something to talk about. My friend and I talk endlessly about the fate of actors and actresses from Soviet period.

I'm really lucky. There are 5 or 6 free to air Russian Satellite TV stations where I am. One in English. Two music channels. I have been planning on recording some music videos to DVD then copying them to my Ipod but haven't got around to it yet. Work keeps getting in the way. *Doh*

There are also two channels from Kazahkstan too. They make an interesting contrast to the Russian stations.

Posted by: disculmawsu

I really want to get access to Russian TV, but I am too cheap at this point to go with the sallelite TV (and I don't think my local cable company has Russian TV as part of its package). In any case, I will wait and see how my friend and I get along during her visit and see if we stand being together before I decide about having Russian TV. I really want to see the program on one Russian TV channels (I think NTV) where the presenters are retracing the route of Ilf's and Petrov's trip to US in 1937.

Posted by: bladerunnerblue

Mr LaRue,

I loved Polynesiantown.Great crane shot!

Posted by: JohnnyLaRue

Damn that Guy Caballero... I shouldn't have to beg for a crane shot!

Posted by: Pin Boy

i love the SCTV references!!!!

Posted by: Chillidog

Quote:

Originally Posted by disculmawsu

I really want to get access to Russian TV, but I am too cheap at this point to go with the sallelite TV (and I don't think my local cable company has Russian TV as part of its package). In any case, I will wait and see how my friend and I get along during her visit and see if we stand being together before I decide about having Russian TV. I really want to see the program on one Russian TV channels (I think NTV) where the presenters are retracing the route of Ilf's and Petrov's trip to US in 1937.

Where I live (out in the boonies) there are no cable companies so you either have to go satellite or go antenna (which you may get a hand full of channels at best) so of course I go satellite. Back in 2006 I did get the Russian TV package, had if I remember 6/7 channels from Russia and Ukraine, but things went south with my lady and so I eliminated these channels from my programing. I know what you mean about the cost, it was around an extra $50 just for the Russian programing, which if you have a lady and a reason for having these extra channels is not going to bankrupt anyone. My normal service for satellite runs me about $50+ a month and then during the winter months I pay extra for the 'NHL package' so with having the Russian channels during this time in the winter with the hockey package my satallite bill was around $130 a month other wise when hockey was over it would cost me $90+ for regular programming and the Russian channels.

Posted by: Pin Boy

off topic, but...

when i moved into a new home i did without cable or satellite. just the over the air channels getting the major networks has been fine for me. i did get cable one fall/winter for football season and then canceled it after the college bowl games were finished. at a cost of approx $60-70 month, i figure i gave myself a decent raise by foregoing cable, but my bar bill is another story as i like to hang out at the tavern and watch the games with my friends.