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Finding a FSU Bride
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Posted by: GoingToRussia

It seems there has been many disappointment lately concerning visits and relations with FSU women and foreign men. I thought maybe if members write what works for them, then maybe we can improve the odds of finding the woman of our dreams and have a loving relationship.

I am not an expert at finding a woman from the FSU for marriage and I don’t pretend to be. I am only trying to help provide ideas for a more successful outcome.

I would like to say that these posts would probably be generalizations and opinions. Some men go to the FSU without a plan or not to meet anyone, they just “wing it” and hope for the best. It works for them so it’s great!!! What works for one person doesn’t always work for someone else. So don’t “cut down” someone’s idea because it doesn’t or wouldn’t work for you. HAVE AN OPEN MIND!

I’ll give a few that I’ve found helpful.

1. Get a phone number, even if she can’t speak English.

2. Get to know each other for 3-4 months minimum before you see her.

3. The first visit must be in her home city.

4. Only go when she has a vacation and can spend time with you.

5. Go with the mind set that it’s a vacation, not that you will meet your dream girl.

6. Have the number or e-mail address of other women or a dating agency you can contact if your original meeting is a “bust“.

7. Concentrate on what she does, not what she says … “words are cheap” and “actions speak louder than words“.

I wish you all the best with your quest and please provide any information you think might be helpful.

Posted by: Raspberry

GTR, funny that you mentioned this. I was starting on a list myself, and got a lot of items to add.....will come up with some more soon.

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

It seems there has been many disappointment lately concerning visits and relations with FSU women and foreign men.

Good thread but bear in mind that there are also some recent relationships that are progressing well (including yours). I agree some advice may not be out of place in some instances.

I am stating the obvious, but communication, especially via the phone is very important and may be key to the outcome of the relationship - I mean to the start of the relationship, if ou know what I mean. If you read the postings from the recent issues, you will see a common theme. The guys have had doubts in their minds, but they were so far into it that they thought that those were just blips. The ladies were giving too many excuses. The nearer the meeting dates, the harder it was for the guys to contact their ladies. Should these have been taken as clear indicators of some uncertainty on the ladies' sides? The ladies could just genuinely be nervous.

Some guys did not even get the chance to observe the body language because they were going for the first meeting.

Some checklists I used:

1. How often was the lady unavailable when called?
2. Has the frequency of her email response reduced?
3. Has she taken longer [than normal] to respond to emails?
4. Does she mention being busy at work more than she used to? Could this be a hint that she does not want you to come or to prepare some excuses for when you visit?
5. Is she as happy as she normally is when she hears your voice on the phone, or are you left feeling apologetic that you have taken up her time?
6. What about the length of the conversations – who controls the durations?
7. Can you confirm that she is happy for you to visit and does she answer as enthusiastic as she did when the suggestion was first made?
8. Are your email/sms/calls routinised or are they spontaneous?
9. What’s your gut feeling?

We have discussed visiting more than one lady elsewhere and you will find that some ladies will not want to be just a stop on your itinerary. It is very difficult to balance this and it could easily be self-professing. I would only have a back up if I have doubts about the availability of the lady.

Posted by: blucatz

GTR, why does the first visit have to be in her home city? The lady I am going to visit lives in Omsk but since it is so cold there this time of year, we are going to meet in Costa Rica the meet in Omsk in June if all goes well. We decided on Costa Rica for first visit because neither of us wants to wait till June to meet and its too darn cold in Omsk to really do anything enjoyable. Besides, if she doesn't show up, I can find alot more to do by myself in Costa Rica than Omsk in March....LOL. All the other items on your list I do agree with though, very good points.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Good examples GoEast. Yes I was thinking of a way to say "Does she seem committed to you and a relationship". I think you covered this subject with e-mails and phone conversations.

Based on your comments, I found someone that is serious about having a relationship with me.

Thanks for posting.

Posted by: deccie

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

1. Get a phone number, even if she can’t speak English.

2. Get to know each other for 3-4 months minimum before you see her.

3. The first visit must be in her home city.

4. Only go when she has a vacation and can spend time with you.

5. Go with the mind set that it’s a vacation, not that you will meet your dream girl.

6. Have the number or e-mail address of other women or a dating agency you can contact if your original meeting is a “bust“.

7. Concentrate on what she does, not what she says … “words are cheap” and “actions speak louder than words“.

I would disagree with items 2 and 5. Otherwise they seem reasonable.
I disagree with item two because I question how close you can get to someone just via phone and email. The addendum I would add to two is "Don't fall in love with a voice on a telephone or someone via email."

I disagree with item 5 purely on the basis that you need to be wary of "vacation mode" and relationships. You tend to let things slide you otherwise you would not in "normal" life. However I would agree with the notion that you should not get on the plane expecting to meet your "soulmate" particularly if your doing WOVO.

Some others I would add..

Do not take an engagement ring with you for your first meeting!

Observe, Observe, Observe. How does she treat others? Did she let you meet her friends? Does she HAVE friends? How is her relationship with her parents? Compare her relationship with them and with you.

If something happens that you view as wrong. Address it!
Pick your time and place though because you don't want her to walk away from you in the middle of a big city where you can't read the signs!

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Hi Blucatz.

A first meeting in her city wold eliminate any "Good Time Girls" you might run across. Also it if she is serious about a relationship, she won't care where you meet.

It is okay to first meet in her city for a week and then travel somewhere else. Turkey or Egypt is warm this time of year. Meet in her city first, if things don't work out or she continues to ask you to buy things for her, you might want to concider finding a different girl. This what I did with my fiancee. I was in her city for a week, then went to Kiev for a week, then back to her city.

Posted by: blucatz

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

Hi Blucatz.

A first meeting in her city wold eliminate any "Good Time Girls" you might run across. Also it if she is serious about a relationship, she won't care where you meet.

It is okay to first meet in her city for a week and then travel somewhere else. Turkey or Egypt is warm this time of year. Meet in her city first, if things don't work out or she continues to ask you to buy things for her, you might want to concider finding a different girl. This what I did with my fiancee. I was in her city for a week, then went to Kiev for a week, then back to her city.

Actually it is not her that is hesitant about meeting in Omsk the first time, it is me. I just don't know what we would do for 14 days in the middle of winter in Siberia. Besides, its really cheap for me to go to Costa Rica, so if she shows up, I will know she is serious because that will be quite a journey for her. Her portion of the trip will all be on her as far as transportation goes. I send money to no one.

Posted by: dagpop

What worked for me with Rima was romance. She likes to be told loving words and also I would send her poems and music. Women like to fall in love. Another thing women like is for you to show her is your true heart. You have to be honest and open to her. You got to tell her your true feelings.

You got to get the fire started before you start visiting and doing other things.

Posted by: AkMike

[QUOTE=GoingToRussia]1. Get a phone number, even if she can’t speak English.

2. Get to know each other for 3-4 months minimum before you see her.

3. The first visit must be in her home city.

4. Only go when she has a vacation and can spend time with you.

5. Go with the mind set that it’s a vacation, not that you will meet your dream girl.

6. Have the number or e-mail address of other women or a dating agency you can contact if your original meeting is a “bust“.

7. Concentrate on what she does, not what she says … “words are cheap” and “actions speak louder than words“.QUOTE]
A great start GTR!
Everyone of these is what I did and it worked for me!
Keep writing women in that general geographic area to know another lady that's a possible. It's easy enough to switch towns.
The main reason to meet her in her town Blucatz is to meet her family and friends. Watch and see the quality of her friends and see how she treats them. The language barrier isn't a problem if you look and see relationships.
A trip to a different country should not be on the first meeting IMO. GTG will want just the trip and will not be looking for a long term relationship. If you just want a short time girl you found her.
Russia in the winter isn't that bad.. See her home town! If she can handle it on a daily basis you can too.

Posted by: Seaview

Many girls feel more relaxed and comfortable in some other place - not their home town. They may be even ashamed of their home town in some cases.

Many girls don't like the idea of introducing you to parents, kids and friends during the first meeting.

Many Russian websites about foreign dating recommend a third country as a good option for the first meeting.

Russians don't need visas to many popular tourist destinations, so it makes sense meeting in Turkey, Egypt, Cuba, Maldives, Tunissia and so on. It's just easy.

Many Russian girls (not all of them, of course) can afford going to Egypt, Turkey, Tunissia, etc. and can pay their part of the trip.

If I were planning to spend my holiday in Greece (for example), I would have informed a guy about it and suggested meeting there. And that's that. Why should I change my plans if somebody I have never seen in my life insists on meeting me in Moscow. I have just two holidays per year and I don't want to spend them in Moscow.

THat's a pattern of thinking that also has the right to exist.

IMHO

Posted by: AkMike

Quote:

Originally Posted by blucatz

Besides, its really cheap for me to go to Costa Rica, so if she shows up, I will know she is serious because that will be quite a journey for her. Her portion of the trip will all be on her as far as transportation goes.

This would probably be her entire life savings to make this trip IF she has a great job with rich parents too boot. She'll see that you're not bored.
You need to be able to understand her backround and her life in order to know her.
Omsk is a big city and there'll be alot to see and do.

Posted by: royalpalace774

The way I feel now after this last year of 3 visits to the Ukraine and seeing 2 women where I did my absolute best in trying to make things work I have decided that seeing a few women is the only way to go. And I am sticking to that on my next venture.

Of course many of you will disagree, but I have put my eggs in one basket for 2 different women and had a K1 visa approved and had a relationship go on for 1 year & she broke up with me in an email. And right now I am back at square one or 1st base.

When I do this again I am 100% visiting more than 1 women. I don't feel that I have to inform any of them that I am visiting another women. After I see the 3 or 4 that I intend to visit I will then tell them what my intentions are with them.

I don't feel I am being dishonest at all by seeing a few ladies. As far as I see it I save up a few thousand dollars to make these trips & to get over there is not something I can just drop everything I'm doing & go. I might make 2 trips and see 2 different women on each trip. But my mind is made up and I am not going to travel 8000 miles again for just one women who seems like the one. I thought I had the one & she dumped me in an email after I gave her my heart & some financial help.

Look what happened to GENTLEGIANT when he went to Dubai. When I read these stories it makes me sick that some women can do this to us when we go thousands of miles to see them.

As far as I see it I am going to do this again and I just feel that I can get more done by writing to a few and visiting a few. I just lost 1 year from this & I don't want to loose any more. I am in this to win. And winning is finding a women that has the moral character & heart & commitment to being with me.

I know some of you are dead set on seeing only one women on a trip. But that's your thing. And I'm not going to tell you you are right or wrong.

I did it that way & I am changing my approach. I know a few of us have had some bad trips in the last year. I forgot who they are but I wouldn't be surprised if these guys do it differently also.

You can say I'm doing it all wrong. But I did it right in the 1st place & came out with nothing in the end except experience. And it's my experience that is making me do it a new way now.

I would love to hear what you guys think. But I just want to say that no matter what you say, I am going to see a few on my next time out. And I will spend at least a week with each one & then I will know who to dismiss & who to keep. It sounds cold but I see it as dating in 2007 on an international level.

I don't want to go 8000 miles & sit there after a day or 2 knowing I wasted 4 months of emails & phone calls to a women who turned out to be not at all what I thought she would be. And then I get on a plane to go back home with nothing done. She is the one who has nothing to loose. It is us that save up to go there that put our eggs in one basket that have everything to loose. Plane fare, apartment rental, food, a few gifts. And thousands of dollars.

This is my decision & I'm sticking to it. But I will do it with love & class & integrity. On my 1st trip to the Ukraine I should have got rid of the women on day 2 & I didn't only because I was in a foreign country & nervous about being alone.

I've made 3 trips there & I am not worried the least bit now about being alone there.

Right now I am writing to 4 women and have exchanged at least 6-8 emails with each one and a few phone calls to them. I like all 4 of them equal right now. And I think they like me and they all want to see me visit them. 2 of them live in the same city and the other 2 are in other cities. The only way to know what I have is to see all 4. The emails & calls are nice but we all know that in person is the deciding factor in the end.

I will shortly start a new tread called "4 VERY NICE WOMEN TO CHOOSE FROM NOW WHAT DO I DO?"

Posted by: Dennie

There is much emphasis on writing of a letter of introduction, any advice or suggestions on a “winning profile”?
Such as what to avoid? Should it be translated into Russian? What is useful or not, for example http://msn.match.com/msn/article.as...id=6966&lid=419. Can a narrative be too long or too short and canned?

Thanks
Dennie

Posted by: AkMike

Dennie, I'd suggest keeping the first letter to 1-2 pages MAXIMUM. Remember that this is to someone who has never heard of you before.
Let it sit and smmer for a couple of days then gop back and look at it with fresh eyes trying to put yourself in her shoes. DO NOT use any or very little slang. It's hard to translate.
Basicly be yourself but use your best manners!

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by deccie

Some others I would add..

Do not take an engagement ring with you for your first meeting!

Observe, Observe, Observe. How does she treat others? Did she let you meet her friends? Does she HAVE friends? How is her relationship with her parents? Compare her relationship with them and with you.

If something happens that you view as wrong. Address it!
Pick your time and place though because you don't want her to walk away from you in the middle of a big city where you can't read the signs!

Good points Deccie, yes observe observe observe ... actions speak louder than words.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Glad to see this thread taking off with so many contributers. Thanks to all for the comments ... keep them coming.

RoyalPalace, you are doing nothing wrong. Many men have found the right woman this way. As a matter of fact it has many benefits like actually seeing and meeting each one. You get an idea of how you interact. You can feel like you've found your special someone on the phone and in e-mails but when you meet ... it doesn't work. There are many ways to find a FSU bride and what you are doing is fine. Good luck with your next adventure.

Posted by: deccie

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalpalace774

The way I feel now after this last year of 3 visits to the Ukraine and seeing 2 women where I did my absolute best in trying to make things work I have decided that seeing a few women is the only way to go. And I am sticking to that on my next venture.

Of course many of you will disagree, but I have put my eggs in one basket for 2 different women and had a K1 visa approved and had a relationship go on for 1 year & she broke up with me in an email. And right now I am back at square one or 1st base.

When I do this again I am 100% visiting more than 1 women. I don't feel that I have to inform any of them that I am visiting another women. After I see the 3 or 4 that I intend to visit I will then tell them what my intentions are with them.

I don't feel I am being dishonest at all by seeing a few ladies. As far as I see it I save up a few thousand dollars to make these trips & to get over there is not something I can just drop everything I'm doing & go. I might make 2 trips and see 2 different women on each trip. But my mind is made up and I am not going to travel 8000 miles again for just one women who seems like the one. I thought I had the one & she dumped me in an email after I gave her my heart & some financial help.

Look what happened to GENTLEGIANT when he went to Dubai. When I read these stories it makes me sick that some women can do this to us when we go thousands of miles to see them.

As far as I see it I am going to do this again and I just feel that I can get more done by writing to a few and visiting a few. I just lost 1 year from this & I don't want to loose any more. I am in this to win. And winning is finding a women that has the moral character & heart & commitment to being with me.

I know some of you are dead set on seeing only one women on a trip. But that's your thing. And I'm not going to tell you you are right or wrong.

I did it that way & I am changing my approach. I know a few of us have had some bad trips in the last year. I forgot who they are but I wouldn't be surprised if these guys do it differently also.

You can say I'm doing it all wrong. But I did it right in the 1st place & came out with nothing in the end except experience. And it's my experience that is making me do it a new way now.

I would love to hear what you guys think. But I just want to say that no matter what you say, I am going to see a few on my next time out. And I will spend at least a week with each one & then I will know who to dismiss & who to keep. It sounds cold but I see it as dating in 2007 on an international level.

I don't want to go 8000 miles & sit there after a day or 2 knowing I wasted 4 months of emails & phone calls to a women who turned out to be not at all what I thought she would be. And then I get on a plane to go back home with nothing done. She is the one who has nothing to loose. It is us that save up to go there that put our eggs in one basket that have everything to loose. Plane fare, apartment rental, food, a few gifts. And thousands of dollars.

This is my decision & I'm sticking to it. But I will do it with love & class & integrity. On my 1st trip to the Ukraine I should have got rid of the women on day 2 & I didn't only because I was in a foreign country & nervous about being alone.

I've made 3 trips there & I am not worried the least bit now about being alone there.

Right now I am writing to 4 women and have exchanged at least 6-8 emails with each one and a few phone calls to them. I like all 4 of them equal right now. And I think they like me and they all want to see me visit them. 2 of them live in the same city and the other 2 are in other cities. The only way to know what I have is to see all 4. The emails & calls are nice but we all know that in person is the deciding factor in the end.

I will shortly start a new tread called "4 VERY NICE WOMEN TO CHOOSE FROM NOW WHAT DO I DO?"

RP,

WMVM (Write Many, Visit Many) is the preferred way to go. However, I have one problem with your post. It is about not telling the women what you are doing. Dagpop said it best. You need to be honest and open. You need to set the ground rules for the relationship and the women need to decide if that is acceptable to them. Both people have a choice in this. I have seen posts by RW where they have indicated they would stop seeing a man if he was doing WMVM. Don't you think they deserve to be able to make that choice?

Anything less is deception! Exactly how you have been deceived!

You don't deserve anything less than the woman you need. The women don't deserve anything less than YOU being honest with THEM.

If a woman asks you directly if you are talking to/seeing anyone else are you going to lie to them? Or speak the truth?

Posted by: AkMike

The worst mistake anyone could make IMO is to get in a hurry when you're still in the lust stage. There has been too many "ONE WEEK WONDERS" that get their hearts ripped out when they are in way too much of a rush.
Give it time to mature just like any relationship with a AW/WW. I really have no idea why folks get in a hurry just because they're in a foreign land with a woman.

Posted by: deccie

Completely agree with you Mike.

Posted by: blucatz

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkMike

I would rather meet her in a neutral city first anyway because she has a small child. I would not want to introduce a stranger to my child that I had just met in person not knowing if we are going to work out and see each other again. Its the same with dating AW, you are not going to introduce them imediately to your family and friends, your going to date a while first to see if its going to last then meet the family. I see dating a FSU woman as being no different. So meeting first in a neutral country is like the first few dates with an AW. If it works out in Costa Rica, which I really hope it does, I already plan on going to Omsk the end of May or first of June. Then I can meet her little girl, her family and friends and then we will know that we are going somewhere permanant.

Besides, she has a great job and told me not to worry about the expense of her flying anywhere to meet. So we will see, if she shows up, fantastic, if not, I will have a great vacation on the beach and do a little fishing.

Posted by: Dennie

Mike,

I have written an introduction letter and between advice and suggestions on RMP and other sources, have periodically refined and edited it. I should have been a little more clear in what I meant by "winning profile". I meant as posting a profile to an agencie(s). My understanding of IMBRA would be that an agency (IMBRA compliant that is) would have to first contact the lady to provide her with my information prior to correspondence. That would mean she would decide from a Profile?

Thanks,
Dennie

Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:

Originally Posted by deccie

I agree with you about the deception. But so far I haven't had any of the women ask me if I am writing or intend to see any other women. If they ask I will tell. But I will defintely not just come out & say it. I don't have to. If they want to know it's up to them to ask. I feel no obligation to tell them if they don't ask. Sorry , but if you think that's deceptive then that's your problem. The women needs to decide if she will ask the question if I am going to visit others. And you are the one who said IF THE WOMEN ASKS ME DIRECTLY. AND IF SHE DOESN'T. THEN WHAT?

And it is my opinion that I need to be honest & not open. Being open & just coming out & saying " OH I WANT TO TELL YOU EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDN'T ASK THAT I INTEND TO MEET ANOTHER WOMEN AFTER I LEAVE YOU " I don't have to do that. If they ask I tell if they don't ask I don't tell. And what is wrong with spending 1 week with one women & then one week with another. In a 1st meeting there is no commitment what so ever on any level. I don't intend to be deceptive. I intend to not volunteer anything. That's all. That's not deception.

Posted by: blucatz

I agree with you RP, I am communicating with 2 women right now. Neither know about the other. I know I will have to make a choice sooner or later. One I am pretty sure that I am the only one she is talking to, but I am pretty sure the other one is communicating with other men. My take on that? So what! I talk to the one every day sometimes twice a day on the computer and 3-4 times a week on the phone. The other one maybe 1 time a week, so why bother saying anything to either of them? I think my decision is going to be made for me anyway, no sense in starting trouble with the one when there doesn't have to be. I have not seen either of them in person yet but I will see the one I talk to every day in March. If all goes well with her then I will break it off with the other since there is not much communication at all there anyway. If it does not go well in March, I have another option to fall back on without having to start all over again.

Posted by: dagpop

If you have too many irons in the fire, that can be dangerous. You can never get close to any one of the women you are contacting. I rather do one at a time and see what happens. I was lucky! I found my wife right off the bat.
We liked a lot of the same things and our personalities meshed. Personality is a big reason why a relationship will take off or not. A quiet personality is not going to mesh with a high strung personality. You and the woman need to have similar personalities.

For those asking what to put on their profile. Women do like to be wooed or romanced. Put some romantic lines in it and see what happens. Women also
like to laugh and be happy. Put some fun things in there. One thing to always keep in mind, don't be affraid to take a CHANCE. You will never know what will happen,until you do. Your wife may be the next profile you come across.

Posted by: Raspberry

English language assessment.....some women claim to understand English at a certain level.....but actually it's better or worse of what they say. There are often times when a woman can't speak conversational English, but communicates well by mail.

Use e-mail, phone, or mail forwarding from an agency. Regular mail is way too slow, unless you want to send a gift.

Mention romance, but don't be two heavy-handed. And keep the first letter kind of light, and save the romantic stuff for later.

Some agencies only allow the ladies to say "yes" or "never" when it comes to drinking alcohol. While others can say "on holidays only" or other such comments.

"Christian" in most cases, means "Orthodox Christian".

Also consider that some women are more(or less) religious than others.

Although there are a number of FSU Jewish women on the sites, most prefer to go to specialized Jewish sites, as opposed to the general Russian sites.

Oddly enough, you also might check dating sites for Greece, too, for FSU women. The local ethnic Greek women don't generally list on dating sites there, but there are a lot of expatriates from other countries living there that do.......including Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians and Armenians.

By the same token, you will get women on Russian web sites that formerly lived in Russia, but are now living in places like San Francisco or Paris. So just don't limit yourself to just entering "Russia" or "Ukraine" on the advanced search.....who knows, your dream girl may be closer to you than you think.

There are also some terms used in describing occupations(which may be confusing):
"Pedagogue"- children's teacher
"Visagiste"- hair/makeup stylist
"Medical Sister"- nurse
"Stewardess"- not necessarily is interchangable with "flight attendant", although some are. This also could mean any crew member on a ship, including housekeeping.
"Engineer"- could mean a number of things.

Most men that use these dating/marriage sites are not serious. They fall into two categories: (1)"Keyboard Romeos" who just want to be entertained, and (2)Sex tourists. It is your duty to do whatever it takes to prove that you are not either of the above. So write/call accordingly, and of course, make an effort to arrange a meeting.

Always have a backup plan. Of course, have some alternate choices if the girl doesn't work out, or doesn't show up. But also know what is to see and to in her city. Or in the next major area nearby.

Learn something about the culture and history of Russia(or wherever). Also know a few words in Russian. Although many FSU republics are pushing their native tongue, the fact of the matter is that Russian is the universal language of all of them.......it is indeed more useful than learning Georgian, for example.

Plan strategically for your trip. Weigh the possibilities.......hotel or apartment?
Pay more money to get a flight closer to your city? Or pay less, go to a larger airport, and ride on the train for 10 hours? What to bring from the US(or other home country)for gifts?

Put a picture on your profile, even if it's not the best one. Women will generally ignore a profile with no photo.

Posted by: deccie

Manager is another one that may mean something else.

As far as language is concerned, watch your own. Avoid slang. Avoid really complex English like double negatives. One that saying tripped me up personally was "The last thing I want is xyz." Which the lady in question understood as "I wanted xyz".

If you are going to meet members of the family remember to bring gifts even if it is something minor like postcards. Gift giving when visiting another person's house is important to many in the FSU. I have known women to say "I can't go visit this person". When you ask why.. "Because I have nothing to give them!"

Posted by: AkMike

I found a phrase book at lonelyplanet.com both russian and ukrainian and it's a great way to begin to learn their language and it even works the other way around!
I went back and re-read this thread and it's excellant advise for a newbie begining their quest. Great Work Gentlemen!

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalpalace774

RP, we all wish you good luck. Writing to a lady could be pretty tedious, let alone 4 ladies. It may be easy at the beginning, but could be trying over a 3 - 4 month period. I am sure time is not an issue for you from what you are saying. As the others advise, don't be too much in a hurry and because there being more means a higher probability of making the wrong choice. Reading your posts, it is possible that you could still have chosen your Odessa lady even if she was one of 10!!!

On a lighter note, I hope you are better organised than I am - be sure not to call Natalya Elena, or Elena Olga, or Olga Liuda....

however

Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoeastLJ

Hi GOEAST,
Who is Natalya Elena. That sounds like two different 1st names for someone.None of my 4 have those names. As far as making a choice at all, I plan on seeing all 4 and then I will know better what I have. Who knows, all 4 might be bad. I'll see. I'm not rushing anything. But I have my plan in the works & I'm sticking to it.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

I think GoEast means don't mix up their names. He was giving examples of names they "might" have. If you do this, the first thing out of her mouth will be, "Who's Natalya???!!!" The next thing you know you are being grilled by a KGB agent!!!

Take care RP and good luck!

Posted by: rak

I think the most important advice is to be honest. Honest in the sense that you are truly looking for someone to fall in love with and eventually get married. If your intentions are not solid then why are you on this site. Go play on another site and find other players.

It's too bad that we cannot be assured that the women/men on the other end are likewise being honest, but that is where our personal faith comes into play. Hope for the best, right!

Keyboard Romeo is an interesting term. You would have to be pretty sick to spend your time writing and writing for what purpose? My own experience was an email romance with phone calls starting about 4 months into the relationship. Then more frequent calls followed by a visit after 9 months.

This approach was started by indicating on my part that I was probably not going to learn russian so she would have to make the effort to learn english. It was also noted that communication was the most important beginning aspect of any relationship and was critical for a lasting one. So I placed the burden of proof or commitment on her. I figured that even if it did not work out for us, it would help her downstream.

Over the first few months, I could tell that her english was improving in her emails. She had gone away from the translators and had begun writing all on her own. But the first phone call was only a series of the word 'yes'. This changed over time too.

So playing a larger field was not my approach. I have found out that RW do not want to share their men if they do not have to. The honest RW are looking for their loverman. How can they be so committed if you are not? If you tell one RW that you are writing many others then it demonstrates your lack of commitment. Thus you will have to trust her as well.

For a RW to take a serious approach to finding a man online is a big step. If they are serious, they will be telling their friends as the relationship grows. You can always ask her what her friends think and how do they feel. There are many indicators that will tell you if it is live or memorex.

When we made arrangements to see each other live, it made sense to do this in her area. She lived outside of Moscow so we met in Moscow and got a room at a local hotel. She took the time off from work. We spent the week together and made visits to her family home. My advice here is to hook up in a major town where she lives and let her make the "time-off" commitment and have her show you around. You will be able to know much about her this way. If you like each other then go see her family.

I think a long term email relationship followed by an increasing number of phone calls and then a jointly planned visit demonstrates commitment by both parties. Especially if the learning of english is involved and you can expand the topics of your emails to areas that tell you more about topics outside of just how you feel towards each other. Find out about her friends and job and co-workers. If she is not going to share this with you then that is a big signal.

Posted by: AkMike

LOL, They are first names.. Put a comma in between them..
He just doesn't want to get the names mixed up.. For some silly reason women don't appreciate being called somone elses name... Go Figure???

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Hi Rak! Your advice reminds me of the first time I went to Russia. I knew nothing about how jealous Russian women are. I was landing in Moscow at the International airport and I had to get to the National airport. I now know it's no big deal but then, with it being my first flight and all, I was a bit un-nerved! Well someone told me about this girl in Moscow that had a website. She would take you to where ever you wanted to go after arriving. Well I told my girl this and her immediate response was, "I will meet you in Moscow!". I later found out that she hates to fly ... especially alone!

My fiancee tells me that 2 Russian women after the same man should never meet ... "They will kill each other!!!"

I have to laugh everytime I hear about Russin women being jealous!

Posted by: rak

GTR, they are very jealous. But what I also find interesting is the number of unmarried women that are "kept". You have a country that is 2:1, women to men and half the men are drunk or criminals. So women just want a good man and most of the good men are married but are willing to keep another woman on the side. It seems okay as long as it is never formally known. It can be suspected and that is all right. But formally known and all hell breaks out. Vendetta time.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

I think the overall ratio is more like 5:4 but the ratio of women to good/single men is more like 4:1. I don't have any facts ... just what RW tell me. Some women put up with a "secret lover" but many don't.

I'm sure the statistics vary from city to city.

Posted by: deccie

The actual ratio of men to women varies according to the age cohort.

Men are more likely to die at work, in the military and due to alcoholism.

That means their life expectancy is less than that of females.
And don't beleive anyone that tells you "it's because of the war".
That's complete crap since that age group are now elderly and (unfortunately) most of those people have died.

Posted by: deccie

Quote:

Originally Posted by rak

GTR, they are very jealous. But what I also find interesting is the number of unmarried women that are "kept". You have a country that is 2:1, women to men and half the men are drunk or criminals. So women just want a good man and most of the good men are married but are willing to keep another woman on the side. It seems okay as long as it is never formally known. It can be suspected and that is all right. But formally known and all hell breaks out. Vendetta time.

Then you and I must have different definitions of "good" men. Most of the good guys I know don't keep mistresses. Whether they live in Russia or not.

Posted by: AkMike

But in Ukraine there is a lot of younger men of army age that died trying to build the coffin around the nuke reactor at Cherynobl. The cemetarys are full of them.

Posted by: Raspberry

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkMike

But in Ukraine there is a lot of younger men of army age that died trying to build the coffin around the nuke reactor at Cherynobl. The cemetarys are full of them.

In the opposite end of Ukraine......Mariupol, etc., many men die due to exposure to chemicals used in processing metals.

Posted by: deccie

I think both of those comments are covered by:

Quote:

Originally Posted by deccie

Men are more likely to die at work, in the military and due to alcoholism.

That means their life expectancy is less than that of females

AKMike, your post on the liquidators is well noted.
I've included the Wikipedia reference. It makes for chilling reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidator_(Chernobyl)

Posted by: deccie

Of course one should not forget the war in Afghanistan either. Wikipedia lists te following information.

"Between December 25th, 1979 and February 15th 1989 a total of 620,000 soldiers served with the forces in Afghanistan (though there were only 80,000-104,000 force at one time in Afghanistan). 525,000 in the Army, 90,000 with border troops and other KGB sub-units, 5,000 in independent formations of MVD Internal Troops and police. A further 21,000 personnel were with the Soviet troop contingent over the same period doing various white collar or manual jobs.

The total irrecoverable personnel losses of the Soviet Armed Forces, frontier and internal security troops came to 14,453. Soviet Army formations, units and HQ elements lost 13,833, KGB sub units lost 572, MVD formations lost 28 and other ministries and departments lost 20 men. During this period 417 servicemen were missing in action or taken prisoner; 119 of these were later freed, of whom 97 returned to the USSR and 22 went to other countries.

There were 469,685 sick and wounded, of whom 53,753 or 11.44%, were wounded, injured or sustained concussion and 415,932 (88.56%) fell sick. A high proportion of casualties were those who fell ill. This was because of local climatic and sanitary conditions, which were such that acute infections spread rapidly among the troops. There were 115,308 cases of infectious hepatitis, 31,080 of typhoid fever and 140,665 of other diseases. Of the 11,654 who were discharged from the army after being wounded, maimed or contracting serious diseases, 92%, or 10,751 men were left disabled.[53]"

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

But, like I said before, the ratio does vary depending on the age cohort you look at.

Posted by: goforit

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalpalace774

This is my decision & I'm sticking to it. But I will do it with love & class & integrity. On my 1st trip to the Ukraine I should have got rid of the women on day 2 & I didn't only because I was in a foreign country & nervous about being alone.

I've made 3 trips there & I am not worried the least bit now about being alone there.

Right now I am writing to 4 women and have exchanged at least 6-8 emails with each one and a few phone calls to them. I like all 4 of them equal right now. And I think they like me and they all want to see me visit them. 2 of them live in the same city and the other 2 are in other cities. The only way to know what I have is to see all 4. The emails & calls are nice but we all know that in person is the deciding factor in the end

Hey I'm with you 100% on this approach and it is exactly what I am doing.

Posted by: goforit

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennie

Mike,

I have written an introduction letter and between advice and suggestions on RMP and other sources, have periodically refined and edited it. I should have been a little more clear in what I meant by "winning profile". I meant as posting a profile to an agencie(s). My understanding of IMBRA would be that an agency (IMBRA compliant that is) would have to first contact the lady to provide her with my information prior to correspondence. That would mean she would decide from a Profile?

Thanks,
Dennie

That's what it means. The IMBRA regulation acts as a de facto expression of interest, giving a woman the opportunity to never hear from you in the first place, if she so chooses.

Keep in mind however a lot of these women are on free sites, so if you really want to communicate with her you can always search for her on a free site.

Posted by: goforit

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalpalace774

And it is my opinion that I need to be honest & not open. Being open & just coming out & saying " OH I WANT TO TELL YOU EVEN THOUGH YOU DIDN'T ASK THAT I INTEND TO MEET ANOTHER WOMEN AFTER I LEAVE YOU " I don't have to do that. If they ask I tell if they don't ask I don't tell. And what is wrong with spending 1 week with one women & then one week with another. In a 1st meeting there is no commitment what so ever on any level. I don't intend to be deceptive. I intend to not volunteer anything. That's all. That's not deception.

Given the nature of most women, if she doesn't ask a man would be a fool to tell, IMO.

RP, I'm with you 100% - not that it matters but I thought I would let you know

Posted by: GoingToRussia

I was talking to someone and he mentioned that the level of English your girl speaks is also important. GoEast and Raspberry touched on this but I thought I would comment a bit more.

I've thought about this and I think I understand and know my fiancee better then my first Russian woman. My fiancee speaks very good English, we have spoke everyday for 8 months now. ... give or take a few days. The first girl I got to know did not speak English well. I always had a feeling she was hiding something. Maybe she tried to tell me a few times but I didnt understand her. I thought she was hiding something about her 2nd job, which I never did find out what that was. She was actually hiding the fact that she was invovled with another guy.

Anyway, what are members thoughts of the level of English a girl speaks. Yes of course it's important for communication and getting to know each other but maybe it is also very important for a successful relationship?

Posted by: joelunchbox

This is very difficult to quantify but I think right along with the ability to speak english/russian is the attitude toward the language gap.
With the right attitude, no direct communication may be alright. But even with perfect english/russian, an attitude may...probably will cause problems.
My fiance speaks pretty good english but the clincher is that she doesn't worry about any hidden meanings in what I say. If she isn't sure of what I said, she asks me. If I am not sure of what she said, I ask her. Yes, it sometimes leads to other conversations but that is nice too.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

I remember talking to the first girl about things we didn't understand and there were a few times that we gave up on trying to understand each other. I don't remember any ideas that my current girl and I could not eventually understand.

If someone doesn't have enough patience, they might think commuication with a foreign woman is hopeless and therefore give up. I know there are some women looking for a foreign man and they know no English, could be why they are still looking. If fact they still write to me in Russian and I use a translator because they cannot write English at all!

Posted by: JamesB

When i first spoke to Liuda by phone i could not understand her.
Her written English is perfect but spoken was pretty bad.I was watching the documentary last night as im missing her and it struck me how we found it so difficult to have a conversation.

Now after being here 18 months her English is very good and we can converse easily.
When she first arrived i made sure she dealt with people in shops etc to get practise.

I think that the Language is very important but if the feelings are there its worth the perseverance.

Posted by: joelunchbox

One thing to keep in mind is the day they become fluent and then....you get to listen to english riding upon a beautiful russian accent. I saved a call from Lola's neice--she has been in the US for 4 years and her english sounds yummy. English with some Russian on top! I can't wait for Lola to reach that level. Can anyone really describe the english/russian accent adequately? I can't--but I love it.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelunchbox

One thing to keep in mind is the day they become fluent and then....you get to listen to english riding upon a beautiful russian accent. I saved a call from Lola's neice--she has been in the US for 4 years and her english sounds yummy. English with some Russian on top! I can't wait for Lola to reach that level. Can anyone really describe the english/russian accent adequately? I can't--but I love it.

Well I don't know what you mean by describe but I find it very cute and at the same time very SEXY!!!!

Posted by: JamesB

I gotta say even when liuda is moaning at me it sounds sexy.lol

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesB

I gotta say even when liuda is moaning at me it sounds sexy.lol

"Moaning"??? ... is that like yelling or ... something else???

Posted by: JamesB

Trust you to lower the tone of the thread.I meant complaining.

Also find it sexy when she moans too.lol

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesB

Trust you to lower the tone of the thread.I meant complaining.

HE HE HE - No, just curious ... I must get that curious instinct from my girl!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesB

Also find it sexy when she moans too.lol

Well I should hope so!!!

Posted by: JamesB

Only another 10 days and they are back from siberia.The house has been empty without liuda and Angelina here.

Thats why i did so many threads recently, the club is quiet until next week so im bored at home.

Posted by: Ade

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

I remember talking to the first girl about things we didn't understand and there were a few times that we gave up on trying to understand each other. I don't remember any ideas that my current girl and I could not eventually understand.

If someone doesn't have enough patience, they might think commuication with a foreign woman is hopeless and therefore give up. I know there are some women looking for a foreign man and they know no English, could be why they are still looking. If fact they still write to me in Russian and I use a translator because they cannot write English at all!

On the first para, I'd say you don't have many ideas then!! I have plenty of ideas that my friends of 20+ years still don't understand

On the second para, there is still the parochial idea that THEY have to speak ENGLISH....why the hell don't men looking abroad try to learn some 'johnny foreigner speak'??? Some men don't try to learn Russian - could be why they are still looking? Of course, all the men looking are young, attractive and loaded, so why should they lower themselves to learning another language? You use a translator - but think an exclamation mark is approprate because they don't speak English?

Posted by: blucatz

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesB

Trust you to lower the tone of the thread.I meant complaining.

Also find it sexy when she moans too.lol

Hey, It wasn't just GTR that got that idea by what you wrote, I got the same idea....sorry!

Posted by: Raspberry

Oh, yes, the "smile" factor. Russian and FSU women don't smile for photos.
So get used to this.......it took me a while to adjust to this.

But I also look for other things in the photo.....expressive eyes, body language, etc........the "vibe" is what counts. I have seen women that are pretty and have good bodies, but have a sense of "coldness" to their personality.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

I've been doing some thinking again on this subject and trying to make sense of all the recent break-ups. One thing I have noticed is these women have fallen in love with the thought of being married and having a family or maybe it's just "the hook", let's assume it's the married/family. Eventually reality sets in ... they have to leave their home, family, friends, culture, job, ect. They get cold feet and break it off. Some like the feeling of a secure future, being loved, and getting assistance from guys like us so they find someone else because they know there will come a time when this romance will end. It appears they are "Good Time Girls" but I don't think they intend to hurt anyone, but they are afraid to leave the "comfort" of their current situation ... whatever it may be (home, family, job, ...).

I might be all wrong with this but I just can't seem to figure out why all the break-ups are happening.

Maybe they see changes in their standard of living and think ... "Well, things aren't so bad". I find that hard to believe because all the FSU women I talk to say things are getting worse not better.

I'm just stumped!!!

Posted by: rak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raspberry

Oh, yes, the "smile" factor. Russian and FSU women don't smile for photos.
So get used to this.......it took me a while to adjust to this.

But I also look for other things in the photo.....expressive eyes, body language, etc........the "vibe" is what counts. I have seen women that are pretty and have good bodies, but have a sense of "coldness" to their personality.

My RW tells me they don't smile because they think it is stupid to do so. Why look like a clown I am told. When walking the streets of Moscow you also do not see too many smiling faces due to this attitude.

I also went to an auto show in Moscow where there were all the cute little girls in some of the vendor's booths. None of them were greeting you with a smile. So I asked Sveta what the Russian word was for "Smile!" and I began to make eye contact with some of these booth bunnies and told them, smile! At first they looked at me rather perplexed and then looked around and over their shoulder and then back at me and delivered some of the biggest smiles I had seen in Russia.

BTW, at this auto show, one of the vendor booths was a 2-story affair and on the 2nd story they had a stripper's pole and every hour on the hour for about 10 minutes a beautiful girl would dance and strip. The crowd below was huge and all the cameras were clicking like crazy. Imagine that at an auto show here in the US.

Posted by: rak

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

I've been doing some thinking again on this subject and trying to make sense of all the recent break-ups. One thing I have noticed is these women have fallen in love with the thought of being married and having a family or maybe it's just "the hook", let's assume it's the married/family. Eventually reality sets in ... they have to leave their home, family, friends, culture, job, ect. They get cold feet and break it off. Some like the feeling of a secure future, being loved, and getting assistance from guys like us so they find someone else because they know there will come a time when this romance will end.

GTR, when I was looking, some of my very first questions centered on this point:

Why do you want to find your loverman outside of where you live?

and,

Do you really want to leave your fatherland and family, why?

These answers tell you a lot about real motivation. They will energize the communications for a period of time for you to really understand if she is just thinking about it or she is serious. This also has to be validated again and again over the time of the courtship. You almost have to have her close her eyes and then tell her what it is going to be like leaving her friends and family. The reality comes when she opens her eyes and, hopefully, confirms her commitment.

It's a huge step for anyone. I suspect that they get cold feet, re-think their position and then withdraw. It is wishful thinking on their part until the reality sinks in.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Sounds like you agree with me Rak. What answer do you consider to be good "motivation" or bad "motivation"?

Posted by: rak

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

Sounds like you agree with me Rak. What answer do you consider to be good "motivation" or bad "motivation"?

I think it is the extended answer and not the short, "I know". I would ask these questions again and again. At different times as the relationship evolved. I looked for consistency. I looked for the understanding of the reality. It is also so important to listen rather than talk all the time. We tend to talk more and listen less.

I have also seen in these forums where the promise of frequent visits back to the fatherland are promised. You have to question this... if she is going to make a commitment then let her do so. Not with a safety net mentality mind you.

When Sveta came here, one of her old bosses told her to not communicate with any stateside Russians for at least a year. This was very valuable advice for her. She respected his opinion and followed his advice. After one year she evolved friendships with some other Russians and the negative vibes were overwhelming. But because Sveta had acclimated, these attitudes had little effect upon her.

So not only do you have to find a RW that really wants to find an out-of-country mate but also understands what that reality really means. That's on the get-go. Then once she is with you in your homeland, you have to also help her to not slip back into that melancholy state where she is either influenced by others or on her own to yearn for the past. Not that this is wrong but you have to be sensitive to this fact.

Posted by: blucatz

Quote:

Originally Posted by rak

When Sveta came here, one of her old bosses told her to not communicate with any stateside Russians for at least a year. This was very valuable advice for her. She respected his opinion and followed his advice. After one year she evolved friendships with some other Russians and the negative vibes were overwhelming. But because Sveta had acclimated, these attitudes had little effect upon her.

Could you explain the reason behind this? I'm not sure I follow the logic behind her old bosses advice.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

RW tend to exagerate and some want to make new RW to a foreign country uncomfortable. I'm not saying all do this but some do. Don't ask me why because I don't know, some just do. After the RW is here for a while and hears these stories, then they know they are exagerated, false, or seldom happen.

Posted by: rak

Quote:

Originally Posted by blucatz

Could you explain the reason behind this? I'm not sure I follow the logic behind her old bosses advice.

This is how I saw it:

Her x-boss reflected that when Russians come to America they will feel an initial degree of isolation and thus look to find other Russians to hang with. This caucusing of Russians promote discussions that generally criticize the behaviors and habits of our culture in comparison to the culture they just came from. This also promotes the "remembrances" of the fatherland and the "Russian Soul".

So the path of least resistance is to maintain this congregation as the preferred social setting and thus limiting ones ability to assimilate to the new surroundings. This association re-enforces the prior Russian culture instead of accepting the new.

By only interfacing with non-Russian acquaintances for at least a year, it allows one to create a relatively new perspective after which acquired can be used to support or defend ones opinions within a limited experience group of Russian friends.

I don't know if it is just Sveta but, she knows much more about America than some of her Russian friends that have been here many years. She has an understanding of Americans that is much more objective. Much of the American mythology that is promoted in Russia has been addressed and she makes very fair comparisons and contrasts between America and Russia.

I know this is not true for everyone but it has seemed to work for us very well. It also may be viewed as harsh but she took the advice and executed the recommendations. Her initiative told me something about her commitment to our relationship.

Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

RW tend to exagerate and some want to make new RW to a foreign country uncomfortable. I'm not saying all do this but some do. Don't ask me why because I don't know, some just do. After the RW is here for a while and hears these stories, then they know they are exagerated, false, or seldom happen.

I have posted about this before. My wife was also warned about associating with other Russians here. I can honestly say that all the RW she has met here have caused her problems either directly or indirectly(My wife is very sensitive). My wife has about come to the conclusion that all the RW here are sh*tty people.

In my opinion her experiences have cost her what could have been a couple of good friends. She is having a very difficult time trusting any former FSU women.

Now here's a good one! On our last business trip I took advantage of cheap,nice lodging at a timeshare. Man did they have every angle figured! Our guide/saleswoman was Russian. When she realized we weren't biting she started in on my wife. Then another older RW came out and started. They were throwing crap at her like....it's not your money...make him buy it. Your Husband's rich...what's a few $$$s. They did a thorugh job humiliating my wife. When all was said and done they wouldn't even take us the mile back to our car! I'm still contemplating making a complaint to the better business bureau!

Posted by: blucatz

Quote:

Originally Posted by rak

Thanks for explaining that. I wouldn't have guessed that would happen. I was just assuming that if my lady were to eventually come here that I would introduce her to my Russian friends so she would not feel so isolated about leaving her country.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

My fiancee has a friend in Illinois and another in California. Plus I know 2 American men that have FSU wives which I hope to meet this year. Plus her son will hopefully be joining us in August. She has a built in Russian group of people to see and talk too. Plus there are many American/Russian married couples in my city and area.

She said don't worry about her meeting Russian people and finding friends for her.

Posted by: Raspberry

What is interesting is that many Ukrainian women like to read detective stories and play billiards.....more so than in America or other countries.

Posted by: Raspberry

Quote:

Originally Posted by rak

So the path of least resistance is to maintain this congregation as the preferred social setting and thus limiting ones ability to assimilate to the new surroundings. This association re-enforces the prior Russian culture instead of accepting the new.

By only interfacing with non-Russian acquaintances for at least a year, it allows one to create a relatively new perspective after which acquired can be used to support or defend ones opinions within a limited experience group of Russian friends.

I don't know if it is just Sveta but, she knows much more about America than some of her Russian friends that have been here many years. She has an understanding of Americans that is much more objective. Much of the American mythology that is promoted in Russia has been addressed and she makes very fair comparisons and contrasts between America and Russia.

When I lived in San Francisco, I had a number of Chinese friends. They have told me about people they knew, who came from Hong Kong, lived in San Francisco many years, but have never been to Golden Gate Park. Or only been to Oakland once, for a wedding. Otherwise they wouldn't venture far from Grant Avenue. And not speak English that often--only Chinese.

I can understand that point of view, coming from the Chinese experience in S.F.......I'm not surprised that there are Russian people in the U.S. that do the same thing....

Posted by: Raspberry

Apartments and flowers......

Getting an apartment from a "big box" agency is usually more than getting it from the owners or from a small agency.

As far as flowers go, the opposite situation is true. It's cheaper to go through the agency. Not only are the flowers themselves, and the delivery more expensive, but the florists will also tack on an additional $15-20 for a photo verifying the order. Whereas the agencies do this at no charge.

Posted by: Raspberry

I also forgot, that for non-US citizens, the agencies often waive the fee to buy the girl's address and phone, should you order flowers through them.

Posted by: Raspberry

Oh yes, there is the "lost in translation" factor.......

Some of the FSU women describe themselves as "gay", but of course that is in the old-time sense of "happy".

Also, some of the ladies say they like to grow "pot plants"........which means plants in a pot, NOT marijuana!

Posted by: goforit

Yes and often when they say clever they mean "intelligent"