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married, happy but struggling

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Posted by: broncosfan

Hello Rmp. I have not been posting much lately "no time" but hope all is well. The purpose of this post is to give everyone an update, and seek out some advise from some of the veterens. As some of you know, I was married in March of this year. I did not go through an agency, but I met a gal in Ukraine. The internet was a part of our meeting however, but the story is a bit different than the normal. For new members, I'll fill you in. 2 years ago in November, I filed for a divorce. We had lived apart for over a year, so it wasn't a big hit to my heart at that point, more of a sense of freedom. I was with my ex-wife through my entire 20's, so after I filed, I was sad but also a little excited that it happened while I was still young.

During the next month, I dated, went to night clubs, and yes-checked out global ladies. To be honest, I just looked at it when I was bored at work-but it did make me curious. Not so much where I wanted a wife, but curious why so many men go to these sites- and why so many women were on them. To me, the idea seemed a little degrading to both parties concerned. I filled out a basic profile, did not even submit a picture, and my e-mail began to get flooded with girls writing me. The fact that this was happening without even a posted picture was another red flag to me.

With all the incoming messages that were coming in daily, I found myself logging on to the site more and more browsing profiles. Then it happened. I found a girl towards the end of the pages. She was nice looking, and not half naked in her pictures. I bought I think 8 or 10 tokens. The first letters were real simple, asking about her, her country, etc. I told her that I am from Russian heritage, and have always wanted to see that part of the world with my own eyes. I also told her that I was not looking for marriage, and was still legally married.

I had a vacation coming up in January, "2 months after my divorce", and thought "no time like the present" and booked a flight to Kiev. I saved my last couple tokens to let her know I was coming and hoping to exchange phone numbers. She lived in a large town, so I figured after I got off the plane, I would make my way there. If nothing else, I would be spending my vacation in a big city, in another Country.

To her, this was crazy. Some guy that she had only corresponded a few letters with, said he was coming half way across the world for vacation, and hoped to meet up with her. She did not beleive it untill I landed in Kiev and gave her a call. She lived in Kharkov which was 6-8 hours away from Kiev. I figured that gave her some time to decide if she wanted to meet, or atleast point me in the right direction to a good hotel or apartment.

My drive was long and scary on the ice covered roads, but I was not sure what I was more worried about. The drive or our first meeting. She talked to my cab driver over my cell phone and instructed him to bring me to a McDonalds in Kharkov. When I arrived I was met by a bunch of her friends, but not her. No one had any idea what I looked like, so I guess they just looked for the fish out of water American. The people I met up with were all really cool, and had made arangements for an apartment for me. We stayed at McDonalds for a while, and one of the gals I was talking with left to use the phone. When she returned, she was with my "now" wife. We left as a group back to the apartment they reserved for me, and they instructed me to take a rest. This was kind of weird because I am in my apartment in the bedroom with the door closed, with a group of strangers all talking in the kitchen. I stayed in there for about a half hour unpacking my things, listening to them talk and only picking up a word here and there. It was such a strange experience. Finally I came out with the excuse that I needed to brush my teeth, and from there everything began to warm up.

That night, we stayed up untill 4:00 am talking and drinking vodka. At one point, the others left to get me some groceries, which gave me some alone time with my "now" wife. It was a good chance for us to talk, and by now she realized that there was nothing wrong with me, and that I was there basically out of curiousity. She new that I was legally married, and that I was not there in search of a bride. I think we hit it off so well because that tention was not there.

The next few days, we all hung out as a group. It was not untill the end that we spent the last couple of days alone. We had a great time together, and were becoming very close. We said our good bye's and I returned home. When I got back, we text messaged eachother every day. 5 months later, I was on another plane.

The 2nd trip, it was as if we were a couple. My divorce was still not final, but it was close. During this time, I realized that I wanted to be with her. It was getting serious. I was staying with her and her mother this trip, and met her entire family. This would end up being one of the hardest good bye's I would ever have to make.

When I returned home, I was greeted with my divorce finalization papers. I called her to tell her, and asked if she would like to proceed with a K-1 visa. I told her it could be if nothing elsa a chance to spend some time to see America, and that we could test the waters before we got married. She was happy, and that was the longest wait I have ever felt in my life.

That January, the visa was finalized, and I was back to Ukraine. The timing was good. My boss started another business and asked me to manage it. However, the doors would not be open for another 2 months. This enabled me to spend six weeks in Ukraine this time around.

This is where the story becomes reality, and not something from a movie or novel. Nothing critical, but things the veterens will remember, and the new members of the site should be aware of.

The first few weeks in Ukraine, everything was beatiful. After a six month wait, it felt as if we picked up right where we left off. However, it was serious now, so things started to change. She does not drink, and was now starting to control my drinking. It was a little embarassing. By this time I was learning more russian, and began picking up on things being said. If we went to pizza, and I ordered a large beer, in Russian she would tell the waitress to bring me a small one. If we had guests and family at the house, during toasts, in Russian she would tell whoever was pouring to only fill my glass half way. I felt like it made me look like a week American. I am 6'5" and can hold my liquor, so I could definately hold my own drinking with Ukrainian people. During this visit, we did not see the friends I had made from the last trips even one time, because she knew we would end up drinking. She sais she does not like to see my eyes get so heavy looking. The drinking issue is a problem even today. I will get into that later. I am not a drunk, but I am a social drinker. I don't have a problem not drinking. But when it is an occasion where we are having toasts, I don't understand why she would cut me off like that. The other problem is that she is a singer. She continued to work while I was there. Being a musician, she is a night person. She works at night, sleeps untill the afternoon. So we would go to a night club at 8:00 PM untill 12:00 - 2:00 AM and I would sit there by myself feeling like I shouldn't order a drink or make friends. The few times I would make friends with the locals, they would order rounds of vodka, and I felt as if it would be insulting to say no. Not to mention, I wanted to, it was better than sitting there by myself for 6 hours driinking soda.

After about 4-5 weeks, the culture shock started to hit me as well. I was beginning to feel irritated with all the cigarette smoke I had to breathe. People smoking in the house, int the cars, in restaraunts. I was tired of not being able to read signs, converse with people, understand movies that we would watch. She did not want me to go to the store alone in fear of me getting beat up, which I went to the store alone all the time the first 2 trips. What else could I do when I am awake in the morning, and she is asleep untill 2:00 in the afternoon. And it was getting to me that if I even opened my mouth in a taxi, the fare would instantly go up. Many people would casually insult America, and I was constantly asked if people here were fat. My last week in Ukraine, there was alot of tension between us, we got in one arguement about how I felt she was controlling my every move, and I was not sure if I was going to be returning home with her or not.

Some of the problems we had were simply just the typical stuff that goes on between man and women. But the culture shock did not help my attitude when dealing with it.And,it is not a "russian women" thing, but I mention it because I think there is a misconception that "russian girls" are perfect. We butt heads just as much as I would with any girl from America, if not more. But, we are much alike, and our arguments are very short lived before things go back to normal.

Now the Visa process is complete, and it is time to return home. Getting on the plane, I could feel stress lifting from me. I was going home, where I could read, write, work, talk, and have friends again. She to was excited, because for her, this was like a vacation.

We got to California, and were picked up at the airport by a friend of mine. It was good to see him, and my wife could see that I hung out with good people. We stayed the first night at his house, and drove home in the morning. I spent over a thousand dollars making my house more cozy before we arrived. Everything was grerat. We went to Yosemite, San Francisco, and I showed her all around my town. Like my trip to Ukraine, the first few weeks were perfect. But then, culture shock started to hit her, and she hated everything. Waiting in line, that menus come with pre-selected side dishes, everyone asking her where she is from. The juice here sucks, the cigarettes are to strong. She no-longer liked what I did to the house and we remodelled. I worked, so she was bored. The tension was back. I tried to understand. I remembered how I felt at the end of my stay in Ukraine. I cut off all my hobbies and friends so I could go straight home after work. My room is now bright yellow-orange with turquoise curtains and bed settings. It felt as if nothing I could do would make her happy.

Things started to mellow out. The anger started to be less frequent, although sadness started to set in. But there is a new problem. -MONEY- Being a musician, she needed equiptment so she could continue to work, and keep her mind occupied. So far- $3500 for a keyboard, $1500 for amplifier and outdoor speakers that have been used twice, $1500 on a computer to run her editing software-could not use mine because it is cracked software and can not be hooked up to the internet. Bongoand small stuff I have not kept track of. Then we need a car to carry this equiptment. $6500 far a used SUV, $1000 to have it serviced, insurance, registration, etc. Then there's the cost of our wedding rings, government fees "it does not stop at the K-1 - change of status-application for employment, applcation for travel, social security number, Ca drivers license.

Not many people in California servive on a one person income. Add in all the extras and it's near impossible. I do over 60K a year which is real good in the small town I live in. But now I am constantly stressed out about money. Everyone who is looking into an over seas/long distance relationship needs to take all these things into consideration.

So now my question to the veterens. I bring up our financial situation to my wife, and she gets very defensive. I choose my words very carefully, but she always turns my words into me blaming her for us being broke. We just bought a new house, and we have been doing a complete re-model. But now I'm tapped, and the first payment is do at the beginning of next month. Needless to say, the remodel is on hold, and in a few areas we will have to live on bare floors. I itemized all of our monthly expenses, and showed her how tight we will be. I said that I could float things for a while, but in the future I would need her to work. I explained how everyone I know, boss included, needs a 2 person income to survive. She said that she is working as a singer. The problem is, she only makes 60-120 dollars a week. Sometimes nothing if there are no gigs. This is not Ukraine, and not many places hire musicians here. She said that she will not work all week for $400 if she has the chance to possibly make $200 in 2 nights. She also said that if she was to work doing something else, she would hate it, and it would effect her attitude about America. Well, I work my butt off, make better money than any of my friends, and my whole check is gone within hours after I cash it. I don't care for that much either. I know that if we were living in Ukraine and asked to work, I would be stressed out. But the difference is that I don't speak more than a couple dozen words of Russian. She has become fluent in English. I'm curious of other members experiences with this, and am willing to listen to any advise. I will say that I don't beleive my wife is looking for a free ride, she is just a little naive. She lived with her mother and thought that the government paid for their utilities. She was suprised to here her that her mother has been the one paying for them. I think she has been a bit spoiled in her life, and as a singer in Ukraine, she made desent money, and had mom floating the bills. She thinks that the conditions here are worse than in her own country as far as bills, taxes, etc. I would love to hear other members views.

Oh, by the way, my wife is 28. Figured the age question might come up.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

I think it is obvious what you need to do. You are living past your means. Something has to go or you need to stop buying things. Try budgeting your money. Ask your creditors for an extentention. Get a debt consolidation loan. You have to change your lifestyle and the way you are iving or you will end up filing for bankruptcy.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


Posted by: Jerico

I had similar issues come up in the begining of my wifes arrival.
She is 29. I make about what you do and also live in Cali which is a hard state to live in on two incomes let alone 1.

Basically I pay everything . She pays for only gas which she puts in my jeep and basically is her ride ,lol.

She tells me that i already was paying the house payment, PGE,Smud, water bills, insurance,etc. before she arrived to me.
This is true but now i am using MORE water, MORE insurance, More electricity so I pay more a month now. I am not complaining about paying for everything as I can afford this I am just stating how she thinks.

SHe has told me that the man takes care of everything but I have asked Russian guys about this and they say thats crazy. In any case I am cool with it.
She has a good job playing piano for a college and giving vocal lessons. A government job. She makes OK money there. However when you are not expected to pay for anything but gas , well even a little paycheck adds up.

Shes been here for almost 3 years now and things are much better.
In the begining it is hard because they do miss there way of life in Russia.
You cant blame them for that.
She will get used to life here and understand her chances of living better over her are good.
Anyway good luck with her , it will pass.
Jerry


Posted by: EasyTarget

BroncosFan: question, does she have any Russian friends in the US?
In all honesty it sounds like she never had to deal with a household budget before. And this is really not a cultural thing, it is just a life thing.

It is good that you showed her the budget and you showed her where the money is going but in all honesty it does take a while before someone can adjust to the cost of living in a different country. In Ukraine she was living on two incomes, hers, and her mothers. She just may not have realized all the little things her mom was taking care of.

Give it time...she will get the hang of it.
suggestions from life...
1) try and get her more involved with the household budget, obviously don't push too hard because she will get defensive, but once she becomes used to the cost of goods in CA, her thinking will re-adjust.
I know when I moved to Germany it took quite a while to re-do the pricing of things.
Cheaper for some things, more expensive for other things.

2)Get a bill consolidation loan. In essence you took on a huge amount of startup costs (for lack of a better word), at least most of the expenses you talked about are one time hits.

3)Keep talking to her about other ways she can use her skills to make money. Like Jerico's wife, maybe she can give some private lessons here and there. Every little bit will help in the immediate cash flow department. Teaching little kids to sing? Music teacher at private school?

Keep asking questions, none of us know the perfect solution, but you can make it work.


Posted by: Spakoyna

I know this doesn't help. I spent probably the better percentage of my time with my wife busting her bubble about what to expect in the US. My whole 2nd trip was spent convincing her I was not a millionaire! I kid you not! It took a little time in the beginning to make her understand about a budget and saving for the future. Now she fully understands and chastises me if I'm not frugal! An example...she arranged a hotel at the Moscow airport...was told 1 price on the phone and that she could stay till afternoon. Well... not so.....ended up costing us damn near triple(rate higher and charged us 2 days...she stayed a total of 16 hours but hit the split). I said why didn't you confront the lady. All she could do was apologize and tell me she had never had money to deal with!

You have a tough road ahead to plow in my opinion from what you have said. I honestly think you need to lay it out on the line and put your foot down. Obviously you cannot continue as you are. I know this is blunt...but from the jest of what you are saying...she is giving you it's my way or the hiway....well....better now while you still have some financial stability than later when you are broke and she hits the hiway.


Posted by: deccie

Gosh, I am seeing so many of the same things K and I have gone through. And we aren't even living together full time yet!

I deal with "the man pays for everything" too. Be very carefull how you explain things because the first conculsion they will jump to is that you are blaming them. Somehow you have to establish what is a normal spending pattern because obviously you can't sustain this. No one could.

My example of leaping to an incorrect conclusion? I was explaining that it would be wrong for K to 100% count on us being able to holiday in France together before we went. That it was a work trip and subject to change/cancellation and I didn't even have it signed off and approved by my manager. She understood this as "I don't want you with me". See the leap?

I think the not liking things is perfectly natural. Try not to get too defensive about your country and where she does say something which is really correct, agree with her as much as possible.

Try not to go to her home for a while. Eventually, if she does make adjustment you will reach the point that she gets culture shock from going home!


Posted by: GoingToRussia

I either got lucky or explained myself well. My girls asks if she can buy something and tell her yes or no. Everything she has asked for are necessities (food, clothes, see the dentist ...) so I haven't said no yet. Maybe I'm in for a surprise when I do!


Posted by: sidney

I'd make a statement like. We have so much money to pay these bills. Who should I not pay. Can you live without water or electricity for a while?
You will find as time goes by that the green grass on the other side of the fence looks less green. The more time between trips back to russia. The less russia will appeal to her. My wife now sees the crime, smog, beauracracy and poverty of real life russia as not what she remembers. They do become accustomed to life in the west no matter what they say. There are some things that they still enjoy from the mother land. One big one is food. We shop occasionally at a russian food store and buy russian type food at our regular store.
I feel she needs a job with bills to see how far a dollar goes. There are many low pay start out jobs that she can do. Perhaps if she had something constructive to put her mind on it would dream less for these objects that are only used occasionally.
The spending like there is no tomorrow must stop especially items that aren't being used. It's time to grow a set and make a stand as difficult as this may be. The one thing to keep in mind is that things should get better over time as both of you adjust.
Sid


Posted by: ham

Quote:
I bring up our financial situation to my wife, and she gets very defensive. I choose my words very carefully, but she always turns my words into me blaming her for us being broke.

I do over 60K a year which is real good in the small town I live in. But now I am constantly stressed out about money. Everyone who is looking into an over seas/long distance relationship needs to take all these things into consideration.




next it can be



red alert here by me.
I got attacked so much for pointing at this problem over the years, but it looks like most people have to face it...
If your financial comfort level is a shoe too tight on her feet, her feet will eventually get sore...and she'll be looking for new shoes soon. Right? Wrong? Fair? Unfair? Women are women...from another country, not another planet.

Quote:
After about 4-5 weeks, the culture shock started to hit me as well. I was beginning to feel irritated with all the cigarette smoke I had to breathe. People smoking in the house, int the cars, in restaraunts. I was tired of not being able to read signs, converse with people, understand movies that we would watch.


another point to consider carefully.


Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
....
You have a tough road ahead to plow in my opinion from what you have said. I honestly think you need to lay it out on the line and put your foot down. Obviously you cannot continue as you are. I know this is blunt...but from the jest of what you are saying...she is giving you it's my way or the hiway....well....better now while you still have some financial stability than later when you are broke and she hits the hiway.


Totally agree. By all means, do what is suggested and consolidate your debts, but you must grasp the nettle (gently) and explain to your wife what this all means. Consolidation will just give you breathing space and you must use the opportunity to make her understand the income vs expenditure relationship. With due respect, don't give her the impression that you can keep finding [borrowing] money.


Posted by: Rina

Try to do not only one month balance but for a year, may be 2 or 3. It has to be very detailed one, like light, gaz, cleaning lady, guy that cut the grass, everything. Show it to her or do it with her together. Ask her at least control expenses. Discuss with her retirement savings, see what she thinks of that. And after that if she doesnt want to work or help you, or she says that she lives only once and now, you should take off your pink glasses and look for somebody with similar interest and plans. ADVICE (if you dont know yet) you guys have to go in the same direction. If directions are different, you end up divorcing, or suffering for the rest of your lives.
Best wishes


Posted by: Rina

Being a musician, she needed equiptment so she could continue to work, and keep her mind occupied.

She also said that if she was to work doing something else, she would hate it, and it would effect her attitude about America.



That doesnt sound good


Posted by: joelunchbox

I didn't like the comment, "put your foot down". I like to think of more like getting in step with each other. Something I am learning about my fiance' is that she is very capable. She is older than your wife but...we are talking about someone who packed up and moved to the other side of the world. I think she can handle budgets and more responsiblity. But I think the key is you guys have got to get in step. I am certainly not in a position to tell you what to do specifically but I think I am pretty close in generalities. Get a book on couples communication and put it to use. I don't know if she will be used to the idea of having a voice in things--that is a cultural statement not about you.
I would like to say that I would take it as the greatest compliment if I had someone help me hold my drinking down. Possibly she has bad memories of people she cared for abusing alcohol or more than likely, she really cares about you and wants you around for a long time. Isn't that a nice thing?


Posted by: stevo

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosfan
Being a musician, she needed equiptment so she could continue to work, and keep her mind occupied.

If it costs more money than it brings in, it's not work, it's a hobby!


Posted by: joelunchbox

Just a thought...Has she thought about volunteering her services to churches, retirement homes, whatever? It might get her name and abilities out there and help drum up business. I work on cars...on some jobs it is a business on others it turns into a hobby....


Posted by: broncosfan

Thanks for all the replies. All very sound advise.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosfan
Thanks for all the replies. All very sound advise.

I get the feeling you still don't know what to do. The first step is to educate her. Hopefully she will see the light after this and realize what she is doing can not continue.

Good luck BF.


Posted by: JamesB

First i have to agree that you are living beyond your means.
When liuda arrived we had awkward times,where she would be very quiet.
I like a beer in the evening and it soon became obvious that she did not like this.

I mean literally one or two cans but when you look at russia,s problems with alcohol you can see why the concern.

As for all the equiptment she needs i think you need to explain that you are not rich and she will have to wait a while as i think if you pander to all she wants it will be never ending.

Liuda has never asked for anything though said we could do with a new pc but she has been waiting and will get it next week.

Be positive but be firm and explain your situation with her and get things clear between you.Hope this helps mate.....Good luck


Posted by: broncosfan

Luckily the spending is over, when it comes to her musical needs. So this part of the stress is releived. With buying a house, she is starting to realize that money does not grow on trees either. She realizes that we will be living on bare sub-floors in some areas, and that we will have to prioritize what parts of the remodel we will attack first. If she wants something done that is petty compared to the other things needed to be done, I put my foot down and say no. She will try to convince me, but will realize that she will not win. My main concern is the unwillingness of changing proffesions. As some of you said, if it costs more than you make, it is a hobby. I'm not asking her to give up on music. I'm just suggesting to look into other things. She only would sing Friday and Saturday nights, so why not take a job that would not interfere with that. Time will tell what will happen. I will keep everyone posted.


Posted by: Longfellow

Good luck to you and your wife, Bronc.

I'm sure the growing pains are a challenge to each of you and I imagine that you both feel like you've made sacrifices, concessions and compromises. Probably, every one of us understands what it's like to come to a place where you just don't want to give up another 'piece of yourself'.
You're right to hope she will continue to pursue her music, but also find a steadier method to contribute to the needs of the home and family.
Her happiness is vital but yours is equally so.
Stay on the path you've both committed to and keep the communication open.
Do what's put in front of you and keep the faith.
And my personal congratulations to you for being willing to express this personal subject to our forum. That takes guts...


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Yes growing pains are a part of this process. I went through a few growing pains last month when I was with my girl in Bulgaria. We learned from them, grew closer, and are better for it. Our relationship is now stronger.


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosfan
Luckily the spending is over, when it comes to her musical needs. So this part of the stress is releived. With buying a house, she is starting to realize that money does not grow on trees either. She realizes that we will be living on bare sub-floors in some areas, and that we will have to prioritize what parts of the remodel we will attack first. If she wants something done that is petty compared to the other things needed to be done, I put my foot down and say no. She will try to convince me, but will realize that she will not win. My main concern is the unwillingness of changing proffesions. As some of you said, if it costs more than you make, it is a hobby. I'm not asking her to give up on music. I'm just suggesting to look into other things. She only would sing Friday and Saturday nights, so why not take a job that would not interfere with that. Time will tell what will happen. I will keep everyone posted.


Hi Broncosfan,
I have alot of experience in the music business, but I won't go into details. If your wife is in a position to make money with music there are some great opportunities if she can do a few things pertaining to music.

1. Does she sing
2. Can she sing in English
3. Does she play an instrument
4. Does she play an instrument very well
5. What instrument does she play
6. How many songs can she sing in a night without repeating any
7. Does she have elegant clothes
8. Has she ever played in a musical group

What I am getting at her is this: If she can do most of these things I mention she can try to get into a "CORPORATE PARTY GROUP". These are musical groups that play for companies such as Microsoft, Wendys, Mobil, Chevron, play weddings, etc. The money is very good if you are working with the right people.

The night club circuit only pays $100-$150 per night for a musician in South Fla. , but the Corporate jobs pay $350-$500 per night for a musician or female singer. A musician in South Fla. can play 2 nights and take home
$1000-$1500 if they are in the right music group.

I don't know what city you live in, but these kind of musical groups are in every city in America. Believe me, I know. You just have to find them and see if there are openings for your specific talent. And female singers are in demand and make the most money per night.

If your wife made the right connections with the right musical group she could easily make this kind of money every weekend and even a job or 2 during the week. I have some women friends that do 4 jobs a week at $500 per job. A job lasts 4 hours and they take home $2000.00 for the week.

NOT BAD FOR DOING SOMETHING YOU LOVE FOR ONLY 16 HOURS A WEEK!


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Being a "BroncoFan", I would say he is from the Colorado area. Maybe not as good as Florida when it comes to money for "gigs" but probably more profitable then what she is doing now.


Posted by: The Dark Knight

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosfan

She did not want me to go to the store alone in fear of me getting beat up, which I went to the store alone all the time the first 2 trips.

Many people would casually insult America, ...



Broncosfan, please explain both sentences.

I'm curious about safety and the general sentiment about the USA.

Did she feel you were a target in general (i.e. looking touristy and/or oblivious to your surroundings) or because you're an American?

Thanks, The Dark Knight


Posted by: broncosfan

Royalpalace, thanks for the advise. Yes she does match all the criterea you listed. She has been singing since she was 5, spent 8 years in music college, and has even sang for the president of Ukraine. These organizations you speak of, she was involved with in Ukraine. Unfortunately, I live in a small town by Yosemite National Park. Not much oppurtunity here for musicians. Even clubs like rotary international only have events 2 - 3 times a year. I do consider a possible move, maybe even to Denver, but as sole supporter of the family, the right offer would have to come up.

Thanks again for the input.

DarkKnight,
As to your questions. Personally, I felt pretty safe. There was one incident on a train from Kiev that backs this theory. We were in the bar section eating a late lunch, and some guys walked in. She told me they looked like young thugs and to avoid them. After we ate, we went back to our seats. She began to dose off, so I went back to the bar area. I heard for weeks about how people will jump Americans, steal there money, etc. For whatever reason, "probally the culture shock," I wanted to find out for myself. I went to the bar and asked them "in russian" if any of them spoke English. One guy did who was wearing sunglasses at night time. I offered to buy them a round, and we ended up hanging out for 5 hours. I think during this time I only paid for one round. They insisted to pay. One of the guys even called his brother and wanted me to talk to him. His brother had been studying english and had alot of questions. I realize that it was foolish of me, and my wife was not very happy, but nothing bad happened. Bad move on my part, but I wanted to find out.

I would suggest being cautious however. If you are loud and obnoxious, or drawing attention to yourself, I think your asking for trouble. Also, I always crossed the street when alone if I saw police walking in my direction. I hear horror stories about police there.

The view of Americans I think is almost comical. They think we are fat, and rich, born into money, don't work hard, etc. Our constant smiling faces show a sign of unintelligence or cockyness. Sitcoms and comedy shows have alot of things where Americans are the butt of the jokes. But I think the main attitude is curiousity. People will ask you alot of questions. It is a new generation there now. During Soviet times, I'm sure the attitude was much different.


Posted by: The Dark Knight

The advice about loud, obnoxious, flashing money, drunk, etc. is good advice for anywhere including at home.

Hadn't considered the sitcom thing, though.

I had seen the Simpsons in Germany before. The voices were different and that was the biggest change to me.

Thanks for the response.

DK


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosfan
Royalpalace, thanks for the advise. Yes she does match all the criterea you listed. She has been singing since she was 5, spent 8 years in music college, and has even sang for the president of Ukraine. These organizations you speak of, she was involved with in Ukraine. Unfortunately, I live in a small town by Yosemite National Park. Not much oppurtunity here for musicians. Even clubs like rotary international only have events 2 - 3 times a year. I do consider a possible move, maybe even to Denver, but as sole supporter of the family, the right offer would have to come up.


Hi Bronco,
Maybe you should go on the internet and see if there is any corporate party acts in your town. There might be more than you think. There must be weddings there every week and these weddings surely have some form of entertainment.

There is alot of money to be made at these parties. And I really think you should scope it out further to see what's there in your town.

There are millions of people where you live so there has to be parties or weddings every week. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I am only trying to tell you that there is more going on in your town than you think.


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalpalace774
There are millions of people where you live so there has to be parties or weddings every week. I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I am only trying to tell you that there is more going on in your town than you think.


He lives in a small town, how there can be MILLIONS of people?


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
He lives in a small town, how there can be MILLIONS of people?


Hi Inlove,
Next to every little town is another town within a reasonable driving distance. An example is Miami is next to Ft. Lauderdale, Ft Laud is next to Palm Beach, Palm Beach is near Vero Beach, Vero Beach is a few hours from Orlando, etc!

Are you telling me that he lives in a town that is not near any other towns within a reasonable driving distance. Why limit yourself to staying in one spot when it comes to doing a job that pays GREAT MONEY !

Do you really see anything wrong with driving 30 minutes to an hour to make $350.00 - $500.00 to sing at a party or a wedding.

I don't think it's a problem at all to travel that far for that amount of money to work for an average of 4 hours at a party.

A musician or singer in the right situation makes in one 4 hour job what many people work 40 hours for. So it's not alot to travel or drive a little to a job.

Or maybe you are the kind of person that refuses to travel a certain distance to do a job. If that is the case I understand, it's your choice. But in the entertainment business the pay is great if you do a few things right and you have a car to get there.

I'm just trying to give him a look at what is really possible because I have been all over the U S in the entertainment field and I know what can be done. BECAUSE I HAVE ALL READY DONE IT!


Posted by: Pin Boy

good point RP. every state capital city is at least a medium size city and there are plenty of local yokels who would love to have a professional singer belt out a few tunes as they dance and celebrate their new lives at the local holiday inn.

pb


Posted by: EasyTarget

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosfan
Unfortunately, I live in a small town by Yosemite National Park. Not much oppurtunity here for musicians. Even clubs like rotary international only have events 2 - 3 times a year. I do consider a possible move, maybe even to Denver, but as sole supporter of the family, the right offer would have to come up.

Gorgeous area to live, I don't think there is anything unfortunate about it. I am not sure which side of Yosemite you live on but Sacramento, Stockton, Modesto, Merced, and Fresno are all relatively close. Or maybe even Tahoe?

I know the Sacramento valley has about a million residents, so there has got to be some opportunities. Here's a crazy suggestion, Why not give RP a call and talk things over. Can't hurt to listen?


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
Gorgeous area to live, I don't think there is anything unfortunate about it. I am not sure which side of Yosemite you live on but Sacramento, Stockton, Modesto, Merced, and Fresno are all relatively close. Or maybe even Tahoe?

I know the Sacramento valley has about a million residents, so there has got to be some opportunities. Here's a crazy suggestion, Why not give RP a call and talk things over. Can't hurt to listen?



http://www.gigmasters.com/Weddings/...cramento_CA.asp

http://www.gatheringguide.com/event...ertainment.html

http://www.partypop.com/Categories/.../Sacramento.htm

http://www.partypop.com/Categories/.../Sacramento.htm

http://www.perfectweddingguide.com/...ds_Soloists.asp

http://www.partypop.com/Regions/Sacramento.html

http://www.decidio.com/local-busine...fornia-s49.html


As you can see , if you put WEDDING BANDS IN SACRAMENTO in Google you get hundreds of choices. Now just make some contacts with as many of these people and tell them you are a Female Singer with experience and you are on your way to doing jobs with them when they need you.

I haven't even tried CORPORATE PARTY BANDS IN SACRAMENTO YET! PUT THAT INTO GOOGLE and you will see hundreds of people to call.

IF YOU MAKE AS MANY CONTACTS AS YOU CAN WITH THE BANDS OR GROUPS ON THESE WEBSITES YOU CAN EARN $60,000 - $100,000 a year as a Female Singer especially if you are a great singer and look great !

The rest is up to you, you have the internet in your hands to find all the connections and people you need to know to have a great paying future as a Female Singer in any town in America.

You just have to let them know who you are and that you are available and ready to work. I would call as many as them as possible and eventually some things will open up slowly and then you will get more and more and you will then start to turn down work because you are booked that night.

It's not rocket science. If you don't go after it it will not come to you.

Type CORPORATE PARTY BANDS IN SACRAMENTO in google and you will see just how many contacts are there.

I know female singers all over the U S who make LARGE DOLLARS per night. Starting out a female singer will make $500.00 per night in a Corporate party band or wedding band. If you can dance and sing you can make $1000-1500 per night. It's endless what is possible and who you work with the pay will vary but always be great in these jobs.

I don't know what else to tell you except it's now up to you if you want to do this. If it was me I would call every single contact I could find and tell the leader of the group that I was available for work and tell them you would like to come sing for them and show them what you can do.

Most of them will invite you to one of their jobs or rehearsals to hear you sing and if it's at a job just make sure you dress great and sing great and then you will see " things start happening"


NOW DO YOUR HOMEWORK!


Posted by: Jerico

Well seeing that i live a stone throw away from Sacramento i think there may be some singing work but probably would be hard to get.
Hey though i agree put your name around and see where it goes.

My wife has a masters degree in Piano and can play with the best of them.
She plays at a college and teaches at a nearby music school for kids mainly.
A little bit on the side as well. She can also sing OK but since she may read this thread i should say she sings fantastic!!!


She has had the Sacramento symphony hear her play.
One thing about Sacramento is there are many talented musicians and singers so many people look for that kind of job singing.

She might try teaching keyboard or something like that at a music school. They pay about 20 an hour. Probably not what shes looking for though.
Jerry


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Well seeing that i live a stone throw away from Sacramento i think there may be some singing work but probably would be hard to get.
Hey though i agree put your name around and see where it goes.

My wife has a masters degree in Piano and can play with the best of them.
She plays at a college and teaches at a nearby music school for kids mainly.
A little bit on the side as well. She can also sing OK but since she may read this thread i should say she sings fantastic!!!


She has had the Sacramento symphony hear her play.
One thing about Sacramento is there are many talented musicians and singers so many people look for that kind of job singing.

She might try teaching keyboard or something like that at a music school. They pay about 20 an hour. Probably not what shes looking for though.
Jerry


Hi Jerico,
Maybe your wife should also look into the CORPORATE & WEDDING PARTY'S. $20.00 an hour is nice for a piano lesson. But $150-$174 an hour to sing a few songs is even nicer.

And you are right , there are many people looking to get into this kind of work. The ones who do the best are the ones who SING GREAT, dance good, and are beautiful. The entertainment business has alot to do with what you see with your eyes. Put that together with a great voice and the money will roll in ! I KNOW, I AM AROUND IT EVERY DAY. I DID IT MYSELF!


Posted by: EasyTarget

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalpalace774
Hi Jerico,
I KNOW, I AM AROUND IT EVERY DAY. I DID IT MYSELF!

RP: Are you saying you are an attractive female that has a great voice???


Posted by: EasyTarget

Jericho: RP is not suggesting it is easy, but this is something where BroncosFan's wife will have to do some of her own promoting to make it happen. I really suggest it is a word of mouth, reputation industry.

When I was doing portraits it was slow going at first, but after 1 year I got so busy I would turn away business.


Posted by: Jerico

Ya EASY I hear what your saying. If you have the talent and looks you probably can make great money.

Everybody gets old though so do it when your young I guess.

Hey who am I to say , hehe , I told my wife it would be difficult for her to get a musical job playing piano around this area and I was totally wrong about that.
Jerry


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
RP: Are you saying you are an attractive female that has a great voice???



Hi ET,
You got me there! LOL

I mean that I did it playing an instrument and moving from one city to another city.

And like you said , it starts with some work and then snow balls into so much that you are turning some things down or giving it to someone else.

If it means anything, I never in my life ever worked a 9-5 job or punched in on a clock. I have everything from a house to a car and made a living from the entertainment business. And I still work for my self in the entertainment business but in another capacity and I make my own hours.

There is so much opportunity for making a great living in the music business if you get your name around in the things that you do well. I wouldn't change a thing. I can honestly say I make a living doing something that I love and to be 100% honest, my job does not feel like work to me at all.

My friends that are Female singers in town make great money and only work 2 to 4 times a week . Thats an average of 16 hours a week and take home an average of $1000.00 - $3000.00 a week to sing a few songs at a corporate event or wedding and they do what they want during the day!

It's kind of like being retired and having fun singing! And getting payed for it

I have met through the years female singers that just moved to my town and watched them go from no jobs to the most popular groups in town making big bucks.

Anything is possible. Just go and do it!


Posted by: ham

Quote:
My friends that are Female singers in town make great money and only work 2 to 4 times a week . Thats an average of 16 hours a week and take home an average of $1000.00 - $3000.00 a week to sing a few songs at a corporate event or wedding and they do what they want during the day!


don't you think there ARE thousands upon thousands of hopefuls with a good voice & a guitar who think alike, thus competing for these few slots at corporate events or marriages paying that money, if any?
And among those hopefuls you get the one going in bed with the host; the "friend of a friend" etc?
Here at least i know a few small time orchestras, but they are light years from making that money...they barely survive.
It seems like another fairy tale of the next million in the bank account or the next yacht at bay.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Ya EASY I hear what your saying. If you have the talent and looks you probably can make great money.

Everybody gets old though so do it when your young I guess.

Hmmm ... I guess my singing/entertainment career would be a washout! Maybe not .. a few botox injections, a face lift, liphosuction, tummy tuck, hair inplants, .......

Who wants an entertainment carrer? We can start a band .... and name it "The Old Man Band"! Who's with me on this?


Posted by: AkMike

Yer on yer own thar Bubba!


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by ham
don't you think there ARE thousands upon thousands of hopefuls with a good voice & a guitar who think alike, thus competing for these few slots at corporate events or marriages paying that money, if any?
And among those hopefuls you get the one going in bed with the host; the "friend of a friend" etc?
Here at least i know a few small time orchestras, but they are light years from making that money...they barely survive.
It seems like another fairy tale of the next million in the bank account or the next yacht at bay.


I have to disagree ham. Yes, there are thousands of talented people who sing and play instruments. But, what I have found through the years is that they are not interested in getting into the CORPORATE or WEDDING BAND circuit.

This is not like AMERICAN IDOL , where you have a cattle call and 7000 hopefulls show up wanting a shot at stardom.

Remember this, if you are playing music in a typical rock & roll bar the attire is jeans & even a t-shirt and sneakers. Also many musicians look at the corporate wedding band gigs as degrading for themselves. They think , if I have to wear a tuxedo and look like a penguin and play a few disco songs I would rather not play those jobs. And if their other musician friends knew they were now playing "I WILL SURVIVE" instead of AC/DC HIGHWAY TO HELL they would be laughed at.

It is a certain mind set in the people who do the corporate jobs. An example is , if you go into a typical club where there is a great band playing the latest top 40 songs and rock you will see them drinking, flirting with women, going outside on breaks & hangin out with a few women, smoking cigarettes , a few little drugs of choice, etc

These musicians and female singers would never trade that in to do the corporate & wedding band jobs. They look at it as if they just failed in the music business. To them it means that they went from being "COOL" to "FAILURE". They think they will be laughed at by their other friends who play in clubs and play rock music.

Believe it or not HAM, out of the thousands that are talented and playing there is only a select few that go after the CORPORATE WEDDING BAND CIRCUIT.

Even where I live I have friends who play in clubs making $150.00 for 5 hours in a smoked out bar who would never in a million years give in to playing a wedding or a corporate event. It's just not cool to them, nd they don't care to make more money wearing a tuxedo on the weekend and turning down their guitar amp so people can talk in the begining of the night so dinner can be eaten at a function.

To the typical rock musician it is MUSICAL FAILURE TO PLAY WEDDINGS & CORPORATE EVENTS.

To a select few it is FINANCIALLY THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

I know it seems unlikely to get these jobs to the typical person, but it really is easier than you think ONLY IF YOU HAVE THE MIND SET FOR THESE JOBS. Are you willing to play or sing a dinner set of soft GIRL FROM IPANEMA SONGS while people eat . Then are you willing to play YMCA or I WILL SURVIVE or PLAY THAT FUNKY MUSIC WHITE BOY, etc,etc,etc

Play in a rock & roll bar or holiday inn & wear jeans & t-shirts from 10 pm- 3 am= $100-$150

Play in a wedding /corporate band at RITZ CARLTON wearing a tuxedo from 7pm-11pm= $350-1000

I could go on & on showing you how easy it is to slowly get these jobs for broncosfan's wife but I have all ready said enough & gave my input and I have really said all there is about the ins & outs of doing this.

The rest is up to her. I'm only showing that if you DON'T change YOUR THINKING you will STAY IN THE RUT YOU ARE IN pertaining to MAKING MONEY IN MUSIC!

I personally know a hundred & fifty local musicians playing clubs & they are happy. And I personally know 30 local musicians playing weddings & corporate functions & they are happy. The 1st bunch rent apartments & have money problems & eat at Mcdonalds, the 2nd bunch have beautiful homes and 2 cars & wifes & kids & eat good food & go to the beach during the day!

THEY ARE BOTH HAPPY. ONLY DIFFERENCE IS ONE HAS MORE MONEY THAN THE OTHER!

GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE CONCERNED! This is my last post about this. I should get a fee for teaching this class "MAKING GREAT MONEY IN MUSIC"

PICK UP THE PHONE & START MAKING CALLS & SELL YOURSELF!


Posted by: ham

I'll personally stick to my "secret forex trading scheme of the wealthy'n'famous" to get rich. Irrespective of me believing there actually is that much money simply waiting for an hopeful with a good voice, bold enough to wear a tuxedo at a corporate event singing boring songs there is another aspect to consider...
this relationship is strained already and the battle ground is money.
Now i hear sirens from those who scream that i am a control freak or have imaginary psychological flaws, but exposing a money-hungry exotic and frustrated MOB to the corporate scene (if...if...if...) might (just might ) be a way to help her trade up.
She might very well not even be a supermodel, but with men likely to hit on her constantly, well it's kind of asking for trouble.
Recently I read a "behavioural advice" on a mormon website, and they suggest to avoid tempting occasions.
If and when trading-up occurs, little will help to expound imaginary personality flaws.
Thankfully it's not my problem, though.


Posted by: Pin Boy

i think there's GREAT potential in the wedding/corporate gig world. think how many people bemoan trying to get a good band to play at their wedding and how many people say how hard it is to find a good band??? i hear it often.

pb


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
I had similar issues come up in the begining of my wifes arrival.
She is 29. I make about what you do and also live in Cali which is a hard state to live in on two incomes let alone 1.

Basically I pay everything . She pays for only gas which she puts in my jeep and basically is her ride ,lol.

She tells me that i already was paying the house payment, PGE,Smud, water bills, insurance,etc. before she arrived to me.
This is true but now i am using MORE water, MORE insurance, More electricity so I pay more a month now. I am not complaining about paying for everything as I can afford this I am just stating how she thinks.

SHe has told me that the man takes care of everything but I have asked Russian guys about this and they say thats crazy. In any case I am cool with it.
She has a good job playing piano for a college and giving vocal lessons. A government job. She makes OK money there. However when you are not expected to pay for anything but gas , well even a little paycheck adds up.

Shes been here for almost 3 years now and things are much better.
In the begining it is hard because they do miss there way of life in Russia.
You cant blame them for that.
She will get used to life here and understand her chances of living better over her are good.
Anyway good luck with her , it will pass.
Jerry

Hey Jerry, it was interesting to get your take on this. I have been to Citrus Hgts, it seems like the city is about half Russian! Did your wife make alot of friends there? I would think that she would learn the reality of US life from them? I met quite a few very lovely girls in Ukraine but I decided pretty quick that they had no idea about life over here, and would probably end up with the same problem about expectations. The one I am engaged to has a better understanding, and I think has the right attitude. Its not like I expect her to come over and start working right away, or maybe not even for a couple of years. But they need to understand that there is a connection between what they charge up on the MasterCard & the size of the bill at the end of the month!!! - and the sooner the better!!!


Posted by: EasyTarget

RP: thanks for your insight into the corp music world. I agree that you will never be a millionaire playing the circuit. However if I could make 40-50K a year working 1/4 - 1/2 time. I would not complain one bit. :-)

I think the real point you are making is that most musicians don't know, don't want, and can't figure out the BUSINESS side of the music world.

By the way if I ever meet a sexy girl who can sing...I can going to send you some emails about how to help her get started.

Well BroncosFan, I am hoping you have read all of this and maybe, just maybe you and your significant other can work things out on the financial side of things.


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
RP: thanks for your insight into the corp music world. I agree that you will never be a millionaire playing the circuit. However if I could make 40-50K a year working 1/4 - 1/2 time. I would not complain one bit. :-)

I think the real point you are making is that most musicians don't know, don't want, and can't figure out the BUSINESS side of the music world.



I know I said the last post was my last, bit I couldn't resist.

YOU CAN become a millionaire in the corporate wedding band circuit ONLY IF YOU ARE THE LEADER OF THE GROUP AND GET THE JOBS !

An example of this: Lets say A leader of a group will charge $10,000 for a wedding. (MAYBE MORE OR LESS) Let's say he has a 8 piece group. He will probably pay the six musicians $300-$400 per job, and the female singer $500-$750 for the job.

$2400.00 for the 6 musicians
$750.00 for the female singer

$10,000
- 3,150
________
$ 6,850 TO THE BAND LEADER WHO ALSO GOT THE JOB!

Do this 2 times a week = $13,700
Monthly income= $54,800
Yearly income= $657,600


If you are a band leader and you get your own jobs without an agent and have THE DRIVE to work 2 weddings & 2 corporate gigs a week = $1,315,200
ONE MILLION THREE HUNDRED & FIFTY THOUSAND & TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS

Now also remember that this is only approx figures for an 8 piece group. What if the group has 15 people and the band leader charges $20,000 for a wedding & corporate job. He still pays the 10 musicians $300-$400 , the 3 female singers $750 and maybe another male singer $500

As you can see, the figures are large. In New York & big cities the figures are incredible.

A good wedding/corporate band gets $20,000 - $35,000

They of course are bringing lights, sound system and perform probably 4 hours continuous non stop. And if you want them to play in your wedding in Arizona or Oklahoma or Washington you will pay their airfare & hotels for all members of the group. And the airfare is extra!


I have 3 friends who are in this league as band leaders. They are always on the phone and they advertise everywhere you can think of and it consumes them Monday - Sunday as if they were surgons on call for a hospital.

Hey even better, write a #1 hit song that sells 3 million cd's and you are in another league and you don't have to work anywhere. Just stay home and write songs.

Go and google the song writer DIANE WARREN and you will not believe the income she makes for writing songs. Here is her website.

http://realsongs.com/

The music business has many ways to make a living. If you are great at your craft and make the right connections and keep going forward the money will just naturally follow! Whether in corporate/wedding band, writing songs, mixing engineers, booking agents, concert promoters, dj's for parties & Bar Mitzvas. LARGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DOLLARSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS MAKING MUSIC

Now where is my commission for this post! lol lol lol


Posted by: ham

Quote:
YOU CAN become a millionaire


hey...
my cousin can squeeze oranges with his butt-cheeks...do you think he'll be in demand?


my next million will be the eight...yours?


Posted by: Pin Boy

ham, if the guy is in the business and has experience in this area, why do you insist he's so wrong? RP has never been known to be a smoke blower, so why not defer to his expertise in this area??

pb


Posted by: ham

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pin Boy
ham, if the guy is in the business and has experience in this area, why do you insist he's so wrong? RP has never been known to be a smoke blower, so why not defer to his expertise in this area??

pb



...because maybe i have relatives and a couple acquaintances who have been studying/playing music/singing since age 5, have a band or belong to one and twenty or thirty years after being in the business they aren't making a fraction of what this person says it's so easy to...and music or singing is always a second job...?
What do you say about that?


We are talking MILLIONS or VIP income here.

Of course you can always retort that my acquaintances or relatives are incompetent losers worth ten cents...

Liberace, the deceased gay Italo-polish pianist used to make in the $50.000 a week in the early 1950s playing in Las Vegas...but we are waaay far from up there, right.

If anyone wants to believe it, though, and try...good luck. If there are millions ready for plucking out there just for wearing a tuxedo and singing boring songs, please by all means do not let an idiot named Ham on the internet to deter you with his dribble and made up nonsense.



Posted by: Pin Boy

any post that mentions liberace as an example of what is happening in today's industry is ludicrous....

why didn't you mention your relatives who have had such hard times in the music industry when you started pooh-poohing rp's assertions???

pb


Posted by: joelunchbox

For enterprises of this nature..I think the BIG question is: Do you enjoy what you are doing? It is a hard fact that many talented people can't make a living in their fields. But, they get enjoyment and hopefully some compensation for their efforts. I enjoy working on cars--especially building motors. But...I will never open a garage because I don't want to lose my hobby.
I hope you two remember to stop every now and then and ask yourself if you are enjoying it.
good luck, I hope she (and you) find an outlet for her talent.


Posted by: freebird

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
RP:

Well BroncosFan, I am hoping you have read all of this and maybe, just maybe you and your significant other can work things out on the financial side of things.

It seems this thread has taken a musical detour... I hope we will hear more of the story from BroncosFan, I am interested to hear how it plays out, I think the issue of unrealistic expectations is an important one, at least I am concerned about it.
Perhaps someone should split the thread? For those that want to talk about the price of musicians in China (Vega$?)


Posted by: royalpalace774

Hi Ham,
This is only an opinion from me:

It was you who said this: Of course you can always retort that my acquaintances or relatives are incompetent losers worth ten cents...

It's very likely that you are telling the truth here. You know your relatives and their talents. Some got it, some don't!


Posted by: joelunchbox

Just keep in mind that it usually isn't about talent. It is about finding an audience, a lot of it is timing...just ask willy nelson. No slams here, just a lot of awe. I sang in choirs forever but I will never step in front of an audience alone!!


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird
It seems this thread has taken a musical detour... I hope we will hear more of the story from BroncosFan, I am interested to hear how it plays out, I think the issue of unrealistic expectations is an important one, at least I am concerned about it.
Perhaps someone should split the thread? For those that want to talk about the price of musicians in China (Vega$?)

Good point freebird, I think it is up to BroncoFan. Let me know if you want this thread split BroncoFan. Your wish is my command!


Posted by: ira156

Yes Ham you are right there are 10's of thousands of people with talent out there....and 10's more without it. Some just want to be the next Britney and wont "lower " themselves to doing corperate work......others will never leave their garage or basement....and sing to themselves forever. And some will make good money doing these sorts of gigs...they see it as a job ..not a quest for stardom.

Its like your analogy of the stockmarket...yes there are scams out there...but as usual you ignore the billions of dollars made each day around the world.....just because someone wants to be britney or make millions in 24hrs on the market.....or indeed is 69.... 500lbs and exepcts to meet ms world on the net.....yes they fail .....doesnt mean there arent people with realistic expectations who dont find well paid work singing....make a decent return on the market...or find love on the net.


Posted by: goforit

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalpalace774
The music business has many ways to make a living. If you are great at your craft and make the right connections and keep going forward the money will just naturally follow! Whether in corporate/wedding band, writing songs, mixing engineers, booking agents, concert promoters, dj's for parties & Bar Mitzvas. LARGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DOLLARSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS MAKING MUSIC

Now where is my commission for this post! lol lol lol


I think the take away lesson here is that being good at what you do is NOT the same as being able to market what you do effectively. It is the old E-MYTH conundrum that Michael Gerber made millions writing about. Being in a business is not the same as working on your business. Those who learn and apply that principle usually make very big dollars.


Posted by: broncosfan

Thanks Going To Russia,
Actually, I think it's fine to leave the post as it is. I thank everyone for their posts. RP, I have copied many of your posts and sent them to my wife. You should get paid for the advise. To the other readers, I will definately keep you posted.


Posted by: broncosfan

Wow, did I really use the word post that many times in 5 sentences.


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by broncosfan
Thanks Going To Russia,
Actually, I think it's fine to leave the post as it is. I thank everyone for their posts. RP, I have copied many of your posts and sent them to my wife. You should get paid for the advise. To the other readers, I will definately keep you posted.


Hey Broncosfan,
Thanks for the compliment. I know that some people think some goals are un -realistic and almost an impossibility. I have seen first hand people move to my city and look for work in the entertainment field as singers or musicians. They come from all over, some New York, Albany , Atlanta, Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina and just about everywhere you can imagine. I live in South Florida.

I would see them again in a club and we would talk, I would ask them have you found any work yet and they would say they had some things in the works but nothing solid yet. Then a few months later I run into them again and I ask the same question and they would say they have found some work but they are still sending their promo packages to more people to see if there is anything better.

Then maybe 8 months later I would run into them in a 5 star hotel in Palm Beach and I say to them "What brings you here ?" And they would say I am here playing a wedding in a ballroom down the hall and I'm on a break now, I got in this 10 piece band that does corporate work & weddings. They look at me and say "THINGS ARE GREAT NOW / no more $100 club gigs till 3 am ".

Your wife needs to KEEP THROWING DARTS AT THE DART BOARD. Eventually she will hit the bullseye. The game is over when she stops throwing the darts. After a few years of your wife working for other people she can possibly start her own group and be the leader and book her own jobs and make the bigger salary and pay the guys as sidemen.

The leader of the group finds the jobs and pays the guys a few hundred and what ever is left over is hers. I showed you what the figures can be. It's all about having a good product and making as many contacts as possible and advertising.

I can see why some people may think all of this is way out of reach. Maybe they live in a small little city with not much going on. Maybe they have friends and relatives that tried to do this and got nowhere.

Maybe they have friends that they think have talent but the truth is they are very mediocre and they just aren't good enough to cut it.

If you are a singer or musician and you have went everywhere possible to try out for a group and years have gone by and you are still at square number one, the truth might sadly be that you are really just an O K player or singer that is not ready for the big league work.

Remember one thing, your mom & dad and partner will tell you you are fabulous and that you are as good as Whitney Houston and Cristina Agulaira and Mariah Carey.

It's not your family you need to impress. It's the average person that walks into a room and hears and sees your talent for what it really is. They don't know you and if they like you it's a good thing. If most people that you don't know talk and say that you need help in your singing and you are average in your talent, it is probably the real truth of your talent at this point in time.

You don't have to be great, but you do have to be good. Good to the point where I don't tell my friends that we need to get out of here because this singer is awful.

I could go on for days about the business. Tell your wife I said "if you want it, then go and get it. There is nothing more satisfying to a musician or singer than getting payed good money to make music & have fun doing it.

Your wife should make a nice website with some recordings of her playing and singing with nice photos of her. Everything helps. Make business cards for her to give out with the website on it. Make a video of her playing and singing as a promo. Make it a priority to have her make calls a few hours a day to every contact possible.

Go to a local club that she can do a few songs and see how the crowd reacts and maybe film it also. Find out what club in town most musicians or singers frequent and go there and ask the club manager if she can do a few songs. Then after she performs these people will start talking to her and ask her if she is available for some work.

The best advertising of your talents are when people see you doing it in front of them. People walk up to you and exchange numbers and you get calls a few weeks later that lead to other things.

Take her where people can see what she can do. The more the better. I wish you and your wife the best. If there is anything you want to ask me, let me know.


Posted by: ham

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalpalace774
Hi Ham,
This is only an opinion from me:

It was you who said this: Of course you can always retort that my acquaintances or relatives are incompetent losers worth ten cents...

It's very likely that you are telling the truth here. You know your relatives and their talents. Some got it, some don't!
-------------

why didn't you mention your relatives who have had such hard times in the music industry when you started pooh-poohing rp's assertions???

pb


ok, all fine and dandy: some got it, some don't.
but we aren't talking metaphysics here, but giving advice to a well-determined person.

Is a MOB freshly landed abroad likely to "cut it"...?
Come on, I can put a blatant statement forth, then "qualify" it until little of its original meaning is left.
I might say that if you have a good voice ( start defining this ) and are willing to sing boring songs wearing a tuxedo, then huge money is there for you to keep because few are ready to wear a tuxedo and sing boring songs to make that kind of money...so you can...

Then i qualify my broad-brush statement turning "can" into "might"...you might get that money if...and if i do, well perhaps huge money might as well be by the million...
As in: I CAN LIFT 100 kg versus I MIGHT BE HIT BY A METEOR FROM JUPITER WHILE CAMPING.



I have no clue how "good" my acquantainces in the music industry are...they taught schools and whatever...very unlikely, but still they might be complete idiots...YET who tells you a freshly landed MOB got more talent or luck than my examples, who have been in the industry for decades?

So yes...
  1. if you have talent...lots of
  2. if you have the right looks
  3. if you can establish or exploit just the right contacts
  4. if you are very lucky

Then perhaps you can make a living out of it and who knows, you might one day win an emmy, too...but this man, whose relationship is strained already on the ground of finances, is required to put huge efforts into paying for demos, auditions, equipment & other necessities.


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by ham
ok, all fine and dandy: some got it, some don't.

I have no clue how "good" my acquantainces in the music industry are..


I all ready knew that you didn't have a clue. Some have a clue and some don't. That's O K . You have your opinion and that's all that matters! I'm sure you have an expertise in something. It's just not the entertainment field.


Posted by: ham

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalpalace774
I all ready knew that you didn't have a clue. Some have a clue and some don't. That's O K . You have your opinion and that's all that matters! I'm sure you have an expertise in something. It's just not the entertainment field.


oh please...
I might come here & say Frank Sinatra told me so & that I am the half-brother of George Michael...

When one introduces himself as being an authority, or else having "insider's knowledge", can this person back it up? In other words, since the original poster might rush and spend money ( demos, equipment, interviews etc ) psyched-up by your inside knowledge, can you offer him more than just words on a screen?
Can you say: send me a tape & i'll hook you up with the big guys, or something ?
I'm sure for $1000...hell, 500 a week she won't mind a tuxedo and singing Dean Martin songs...
No?
Then too bad...another line to file under the one about my cousin squeezing oranges with his butt-cheeks.


You are right: i do not offer professional advice & claim no expertise whatsoever...so should anybody else.

Put bluntly, would any self-proclaimed online expert have the guts to sign a notarized paper, in which he puts ten cents forward to indemnify whoever listens to his advice on the basis of his proclaimed "expertise"?
You didn't in fact just advise to "maybe try"...you made a precise forecast.


what if the original poster follows your advice, then later comes here and says: i spent $10.000, went nowhere, and my wife ran with a 62yo she met during auditions...but i did so because you claimed you had inside knowledge...not a prepossessing ignorant like Ham...
I'm sure you'd qualify your statement and say that some get it; some don't...and probably your wife is worth ten cents as a professional anyways...


I know i'm not being nice & accomodating, but let's be frank folks...some people might -just might- take that seriously and get hurt in the process.

kisses...


Posted by: Kievmarriage

I'm a Ukranian girl and who has lived in the US for over a year (during exchange program).

I can appreciate all troubles of women who are experiencing a cultural shock. First of all, it is a completely different environment. And as much as you guys hate being asked questions like "Are all americans fat, do they eat at mcdonalds all the time? etc", we hate the term "mail order bride". I just visited my friend in Houston for a couple of days. He asked me to tell everyone I was from Germany - so that people wouldn't think we met through a dating site. And were not even dating! SO problems like that exist from both sides. Only Americans have one huge advantage over Ukrainian or Russian women- you guys get to come back home and girls have to live with that attitude. Not to mention they have to rely on men completely- financially, mentally.. in every possible way. It is very hard, and I have talked to numerous ladies who are or have been married to foreigners.

I think the major problem with international dating is expectations. Women do expect "a prince on a while horse" who would take them to the palace and take care of them for the rest of their lives. And men expect humble, perfect houswives who would never complain. And that brings up all the problems. Everybody just has to realize that foreign men and Ukrainian women are people -REGULAR PEOPLE. If a couple (before doing K1visa) would discuss issues and try to have a conversation of what their live together might be like - that would definitely clear up some misunderstandings.

I always try to tell people who search for international marriage to be realistic and patient- that is the only way to succeed.

To: broncosfan

Please try to be as patient with your wife as you can. You are the only thing she's got! She left her entire world for you and she probably constantly feels like she is on a different planet. Remember that feeling you had when you were in Ukraine... And just remember: she gave up her life, friends and family for you! No wonder she is a little cranky and expects too much from you. I think that will go away with time. She probably feels like because she gave up so much for you, she deserves to be treated like a princess and you should sacrifice a lot for her... And I am sure that will go away when she gets in touch with the reality a bit more...


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by ham
oh please...
I might come here & say Frank Sinatra told me so & that I am the half-brother of George Michael...

When one introduces himself as being an authority, or else having "insider's knowledge", can this person back it up? In other words, since the original poster might rush and spend money ( demos, equipment, interviews etc ) psyched-up by your inside knowledge, can you offer him more than just words on a screen?
Can you say: send me a tape & i'll hook you up with the big guys, or something ?
I'm sure for $1000...hell, 500 a week she won't mind a tuxedo and singing Dean Martin songs...
No?
Then too bad...another line to file under the one about my cousin squeezing oranges with his butt-cheeks.


You are right: i do not offer professional advice & claim no expertise whatsoever...so should anybody else.


Hi Ham,
An example of my expertise & advice are on my living room walls.
I'm sure you don't know what you're looking at , so I will educate you. Each gold record means 500,000 CD'S sold. You do the math.

Can you say: send me a tape & i'll hook you up with the big guys, or something ? YES I CAN

So my advice to your cousin is to keep his job of squeezing oranges with his butt cheeks because he doesn't have any other skills. And you need to be a good relative and try and find him a gig somewhere so he can pay his bills. Now you have something to do so get on the phone & book him a gig.


Posted by: joelunchbox

Alright children, let us play nice. Please, just make a suggestion and then let it go....
Remember, others read this also....like maybe Kievmarriage--thank you for your post by the way.
Are we all agreed that the music business is tough? that you need some breaks? that luck plays a bigger part than talent? Okay now, anyone got anything for broncosfan.....er, constructive??


Posted by: freebird

Thanks for the post Joe, I agree with you, let's keep this a positive discussion. I don't think anyone else here has the experience of RoyalPalace so i would respect his opinion... KievMarriage, thanks for your excellent post! Do you think the age of the lady makes a difference? If she is over 25, has own apartment & job, do you think she is more likely to have realistic expectations than a 19 - 21 year old living with parents? Just curious


Posted by: broncosfan

Impressive RP !
We are currently looking into the links you sent us. She has talent. As I said in a previous post, she is good enough that she has sang for the president of Ukraine. People that hear her say she should go on American Idle. But she is realistic. This validates the the point you made of the average person not having a clue about the business. They hear talent, and suggest American Idle, because they don't know where to begin in the industry. This would deter many people from trying to advance their career in the musical field.

On another note. I brought up the music start up costs as an example. Mainly, I wanted to educate people on how much it costs to pursue an international marriage. I think in the early stages, people can be blinded by love, and not realize these things. Your individual bills keep coming. New bills are added. And you have to help your partner get started who now has nothing. It is spendy. The first year of marriage is the hardest, add in the new financial difficulties, and buckle up-you're in for a ride.

I thank RP once again. You're posts are giving me hope when my head was in the dumps, and the bills kept adding up. And to Ham, I apreciate your concern. Hope does not mean I will max out all my credit cards in the pursuit on her musical career. It just gives me hope that in the future I will not be living paycheck to paycheck covering both of our expenses. And that in the near future, I will again start saving for our retirement and future.

I thank everyone for their insight and replies.


Posted by: stevo

Quote:
Originally Posted by ham
my next million will be the eight...yours?

I thought Italy got rid of the lira years ago?


Posted by: ham

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
I thought Italy got rid of the lira years ago?


yes we did...

Quote:
Can you say: send me a tape & i'll hook you up with the big guys, or something ? YES I CAN


then by all means do so.




Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by ham



then by all means do so.


Don't quit "YOUR" teaching job of squeezing oranges with your butt cheeks. You taught your cousin well. It's nice to be good at something.

You see , there's a profession for everyone.

Keep up the good work.


Posted by: ham

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalpalace774
Don't quit "YOUR" teaching job of squeezing oranges with your butt cheeks. You taught your cousin well. It's nice to be good at something.

You see , there's a profession for everyone.

Keep up the good work.


Look at my gold medals before you speak...
and please do not get seized by conniptions because you do not own this beautiful home...


Posted by: royalpalace774

Quote:
Originally Posted by ham
Look at my gold medals before you speak...
and please do not get seized by conniptions because you do not own this beautiful home...


Well at least you can sell your medals & have enough to pay your rent on your mobile home. You see , that butt squezzing job bought u a nice home. Your teaching job will let you keep it. Keep up the good work! Butt squezzers are in demand now.


Posted by: Pin Boy

VERY funny ham!!!

pb


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