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Noooooooo... she's a GTG scammer!?!
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Posted by: subcom117

Things started normally enough. I met Olga from Ulyanovsk on elenasmodels.com four months ago. We both exchanged long introduction letters and, in her second email, she sent to me her phone number and address. Emails continued and she always addressed my specific questions and asked many of me. Phone calls began once every two weeks at first progressing to twice a week. It was very easy and comfortable speaking to each other and we would often speak for two or more hours at a time. She has never asked for money.

I periodically Googled her name and/or city and found nothing. I sent her flowers, but the company did not take delivery photos. I asked her to take a photo of her with the flowers. She did, sent it to me, and later told me she had to read the manual of her camera to learn how to set the timer so she could take the photo by herself.

I began making plans to see her (see http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...ead.php?t=15534 where I asked for advice). I told her my plan was to visit her in Ulyanovsk and she was quite happy with that and has told me of places she wants to show me. Then… her profile was removed from elenasmodels.com by Admin and, after another Google last night, I found two reports on www.russianscamcheck.org from men who had visited her:

Reported Story:
Olga: birthdate Nov. 13,1971

This woman pretends to be looking for a serious relationship but she is a scammer.
This woman only wants to meet for expensive exotic locations. She does not want to meet in her hometown of Ulyanovsk because she says there is nothing exciting to do. When in a meeting, this woman took me for shopping of expensive items and asked me to pay for all her purchases so I can show her my generosity. Also,when going back home she asks for cash money to live because she does not have any food and other home expenses. She also used me to help her pay for her SILICONE breast implants. She made me believe that we were going to get together and later we were going to get married. I opened her FOREIGN visa to come with me. I spent lots of money in this woman. However, when it was time for her to come to me, she disappeared... I went looking for her in June 2007 and spent one week in Ulyanovsk looking for her. I did not find her and she was not living at the address that I listed above. I went to this address with my interpreter several times and nobody lives there. This woman is a master liar and PROFESSIONAL SCAMMER.
Submited on: 2007-6-20

Reported Story:
TYPE: PRO
Age 34-35 Olga, 5'6 125
After lengthy telephone conversations via cell and home, eventually lures suspect to remote locations away from the big cities to visit againg Grandmother that has taken ill all of a sudden in the middle of a date and must rush to be by her side, needs medicine, doctor expenses, food, you name it she'll find a way to manipulate it - believe she is working with a male associate (pimp, most likely) Very articulate and extremely proficient in English. Likes very expensive gifts, dining, deserts and clubs.

Will make a guy feel very comfortable and then either have to rush off to grandmas place, but doesn't have any money for travel and expenses or must get to her home town for work at some undisclosed location for an emergency and then vanishes into thin air. I spent 4 days trying to locate her fearing that she ran into problems after leaving her off at the Metro to cacth a train to her home town. Ironically, the cell phone is no longer being answered, (when just two a few days ago you couldn't pry it from her hands) taking calls at all times of the day and night behind closed doors. (Hell, I don't speak Russian, what am I going to over hear? and the home phone is also inoperable since the last 48 hours. Wat can I say, she fits your description to a science.

Beautiful woman, 34-35 yo, lists different likes, dislikes, different cities of residence, ages, simlar but different pictures. A total of 4 Adds found posted 2 each on Absolute Agency & Elena's Models website. She's very good at this.

Submited on: 2007-5-31

They listed the same address and phone number as I have received from Olga. In fact, they listed four different cell phone numbers. I thought I was being cautious and covering all the bases to avoid a scammer, and I had no reason to think she was not genuine, but, from their reports, she appears to be a Good Time Girl scammer.

I just received another email from her this morning. It was very warm. We both like to dance and she told me of getting a DVD player to play my dance lesson DVD on the TV so I can teach her West Coast Swing. That implies she expects that I will visit her flat. Once, when talking about the view from her flat, I asked for a photo and she sent me a photo of the view from the window. I recognized some landmarks in the photo from some aerial photos of Ulyanovsk I found online. I sent the aerial photo to her and she confirmed the building in which she lives. Yet, in the report he says no one lives at her given address.

She has told me of her family and grandmother. She does frequently visit her grandmother, who is aged and not well (a 20 minute walk from her flat) and just last weekend I called her when she is at her grandmother’s house for dinner with other family members. They were all just leaving to return home. Thirty minutes later I called her landline and she had arrived home.

So… what to do??? I know people can make retaliatory posts just because they didn’t click and there are two sides to every story. I think I will call her and ask about visits from other foreign men and ask for her side of the story. Before I do anything rash… your thoughts?

Posted by: EasyTarget

Subcomm it is a coin flip. Because two guys wrote the reports you start to wonder....
Are they mad because she dumped them, maybe it wasn't working out and she didn't know how to end it.

The part about getting breast implants makes me doubtful. In her photos does it look she has implants. I know it can be difficult to tell.

Don't want you to get hurt so, eyes wide open and look for other signs.

And if she is a professional dater she may tell you a really good story about the other men; if she owns up to it. If she denies meeting other men, then the question would be how did these guys get her phone number and address.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

I hate to say this Subcom but I'm 99.9% sure she is a GTG. The reports were only 3 weeks apart, she told them the same address, and they both went to cities other then hers. Too many signs she isn't really looking for a serious relationship.

I hope you don't give up and continue your search.

Good Luck.

Posted by: Pilgrim

Subcom, I have to agree with GoingToRussia (was typing this response, and he posted first).

The details given on scam check do not appear to be those of losers who have been dumped, but seem to be very detailed oriented....too detailed, and too recent to be ignored.

I would strongly consider changing plans, and going with Plan B. Not sure what your Plan B is, if it is staying in Moscow, or what. (You DO have a Plan B, right???) I would advise caution at going beyond a tier 1 city at this point....Ulyanovsk is not on the normal beaten path. Having been to non-tourist areas in Russia before, performing money exchanges with mafia types in the middle of the street, having a few somewhat questionable taxi rides wondering about the short cut they were taking, and being shook down by some thugs disguised as Police (actually, they were the police...) you have to be careful of your safety. You have to place a lot of trust in those you are with, and your alert level now has been raised with Olga. Can you trust someone completely in an area where you do not speak the language (assumption on my part), and it is impossible to read the street signs, there is no embassy, and no easy way to extract yourself?

What if you are being asked to help for her sick grandmother while you were there, and her "brothers" are there to encourage you to go to an ATM and contribute? Think of 6 foot goons with minimal regard for your personal safety and the way your face looks this morning (no broken bones, no bruises, recognizable....)

Think of the worst that could happen, how you would get out of it, and if that is acceptable to you, then you can make a choice. If I was going to a remote area again, I would ask myself if there are other options for either meeting someone or simply vacationing on my own in the area. Typically, that would limit me to day excursions around a city which has an international airport. That minimizes the things that you would have to deal with if things go completely in the tank.

Do you have phone numbers of English speaking people in the area, the agency, embassy, etc....you are staying in a hotel (minimizes issues if you decide that Olga is taking you for a ride halfway during your trip), right?

:-) My apologies....I should drink another cup of coffee before responding to a post like this....wasn't planning on sounding so negative...

I assume that you already have a Visa approved, and flights purchased. You can change your tickets and go to St. Petersburg in August. You still have options....

On a positive note, you seem to be doing the right investigations, and being cautious. Congratulations! Keep that part up!

Posted by: Texas Proud

Dang... no pictures to see if she got the implants...

Seriously... drop her now... don't even think about staying with her... she is a CON ARTIST... just like a con artist here... they want to take your money and make you feel good about it...

Elena's Models would not block her profile unless they were sure she was a scammer...

There is NO DOUBT.. 100% scammer... and no DNA test needed...

Posted by: GoeastLJ

One of the ladies I communicated with forthrightly pointed out to me that she was on a scammer because some discontented Westerner added her there. She mentioned this two weeks into our communication because I had offered to send her some money for her phone top-up.

I asked why the Westerner was discontented and she said that they met and had a good time together, but she didn't think they were a good match. According to her, he was shorter and not as athletic as he had claimed.

I know US is far from the FSU and men usually only travel to meet a lady with the belief that she is the one and most won't take it lightly if it does not work out. This is because of the expense involved. There are some men who save up for months to make such visits. I have gone to meet ladies for a weekend after a couple of month of communication just for a face to face introduction to see if the relationship is worthy pursuing. What I spend on such a meeting is what I want to spend and we agree beforehand that this meeting is only as 'proof of concept'. Some women are expensive and want to eat at expensive restaurants while others are scared of spending any money and bring sandwiches with them. A girl with expensive tastes is not necessarily a scammer.

Without waffling, I think that your conversations, especially over the phone should give you some clues. Are the conversations short? Is she usually available when you want to talk to her?

Can you, somehow, get someone to check her residence? An agency, embassy? She could be a good time girl (or scammer), but there is also a chance she just has not met the man she likes.

Posted by: subcom117

Yeah, I chuckled when I read about the implants. It is impossible to tell. If she has them they must be the smallest possible size one can get. A total waste of money :-)

I have been talking with two other women, in Irkutsk and Yoshkar-Ola. I could change plans to visit either of them or stay in Moskow and use elenasmodels agency to meet women. I will speak with Olga later this morning and then decide what to do.

I do appreciate the insight you all have shared with me.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Good Luck SubCom! Keep us posted. We are here to answer your qustions and support you. Some people try to scare you but I feel safer in the FSU then in the USA.

Take care and happy landings!

Posted by: shaun1000

Hi Dude,

Forget her and find someone better for you.

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoeastLJ

I know US is far from the FSU and men usually only travel to meet a lady with the belief that she is the one and most won't take it lightly if it does not work out. This is because of the expense involved. There are some men who save up for months to make such visits. I have gone to meet ladies for a weekend after a couple of month of communication just for a face to face introduction to see if the relationship is worthy pursuing. What I spend on such a meeting is what I want to spend and we agree beforehand that this meeting is only as 'proof of concept'. Some women are expensive and want to eat at expensive restaurants while others are scared of spending any money and bring sandwiches with them. A girl with expensive tastes is not necessarily a scammer.

Exactly. "I spent a lot of money to see her, it didn't work out , she wanted to eat in expensive restaurants - she is a scammer". I don't understand this logic.

What if she used to good food in good restaurants? And why should she lower her standards because somebody spent all his money on air tickets?

Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaview

More than likely she is not... I know that the lady I am seeing could not afford to go to some of the places we have been... and this last time I said that going someplace for a $100 dinner is not something that I enjoy... that we need to get something less expensive... she said "I don't go out, how do I know what they charge?"... Fair enough..

But, one time she had made a statement like "it only is $4"... So I asked, would you throw away $4.. she said "no, you know my situation"... so I asked why would you throw away MY $4... she agreed that she should not think that way... so, a bit of conversation is in order if this is what you are getting... find out where she is coming from and why... because if you do not , you make up something that might not be true...

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

I know that the lady I am seeing could not afford to go to some of the places we have been... and this last time I said that going someplace for a $100 dinner is not something that I enjoy... that we need to get something less expensive...

Really? Most people do enjoy a nice meal in a good place. I think, you don't want to spoil her and to make her have unreal expectations about you.

Quote:

But, one time she had made a statement like "it only is $4"... So I asked, would you throw away $4.. she said "no, you know my situation"... so I asked why would you throw away MY $4... she agreed that she should not think that way... so, a bit of conversation is in order if this is what you are getting... find out where she is coming from and why... because if you do not , you make up something that might not be true...

I would have killed you immediately

Poor girl ... 4$ OMG I hope it was just an educational action ...

Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaview

Really? Most people do enjoy a nice meal in a good place. I think, you don't want to spoil her and to make her have unreal expectations about you.

Seaview.... the food was not that good.. it was the 'atmosphere' that you were paying for... not the food... I eat out a lot at places with very good food here and usually don't pay more than $30 to $50 for two...

I would have killed you immediately

Poor girl ... 4$ OMG I hope it was just an educational action ...

Yes... it was a lesson... just like she does to me

Some people seem to think that we are all made of money and that we can just throw it away... all I was trying to say to her was don't waste money just because you have more of it..... (and some of the guys here don't have 'more' after you compare expenses in their country)....

And we went on to talk about living expenses etc... and that there are many people HERE that do not make that much per hour... the minimum wage is only $5.25 per hour, but is going up to $7 something in a few years... She does tutoring for $10 per hour, just doesn't have that many hours...

Posted by: Longfellow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaview

Really? Most people do enjoy a nice meal in a good place. I think, you don't want to spoil her and to make her have unreal expectations about you.

I would have killed you immediately

Poor girl ... 4$ OMG I hope it was just an educational action ...

Do I detect an attempt to apply foot to someones backside?! *THUD*

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longfellow

Do I detect an attempt to apply foot to someones backside?! *THUD*

Not at all

It was a friendly discussion

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud

But, one time she had made a statement like "it only is $4"... So I asked, would you throw away $4.. she said "no, you know my situation"... so I asked why would you throw away MY $4...

Mmm. I would assume that most ladies know the difference between a holiday environment and a real life environment. People spend more on holiday than they do under normal circumstances. When on holiday, we pay for convenience, and may be the atmosphere. I am not taking someone to MacDonald for a meal out and I know I will be paying a little bit more

Posted by: Longfellow

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoeastLJ

I am not taking someone to MacDonald for a meal out and I know I will be paying a little bit more

...and pay you will to get your Big Mac out...

(that sounds a little like Yoda... )

Posted by: Pilgrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoeastLJ

I would assume that most ladies know the difference between a holiday environment and a real life environment.

Assume so at your own risk

Posted by: Longfellow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

Assume so at your own risk

You negative shrew!

Everyone knows that in the life of a western man, every day is holiday! Why we barely need to breathe to feed our children and provide a good home

. It is all so much easier for us because we live here and not there... how dare you!

Posted by: joelunchbox

I go to McD's everywhere I go! I have toys--yes I get a happy meal!--from egypt, germany, britain, etc. A little piece of americana. However, for the first time I can remember I couldn't find a Mickey D's on my last trip. uzbekistan has no mcdonalds!! I verified on their website just now. Bummer! But that does mean her daught should get a big kick from the hello kitty toys they are giving out here now!! Oh , if you want to get you girl something special, something very different....one of the hello kitty toys is lip gloss!! Wow! think of the impression you will make when you give her that special gift from mcdonalds!! I have to go back to get another one so she won't be jealous of her daughter.. haha

Posted by: ham

Quote:

One of the ladies I communicated with forthrightly pointed out to me that she was on a scammer because some discontented Westerner added her there. She mentioned this two weeks into our communication because I had offered to send her some money for her phone top-up.

well, at least she didn't tell you of those nasty brain implants made by those vicious little green men from the saucer in the forest...

Quote:

I would have killed you immediately Poor girl ... 4$ OMG I hope it was just an educational action ...

Well, good-time-girls don't really care whether it's $4, 44 or 4444...but men must better watch out...a wildfire might very well start from a spark in the woods.

Quote:

Really? Most people do enjoy a nice meal in a good place. I think, you don't want to spoil her and to make her have unreal expectations about you

well, one might very well play the fortnight millionaire, but look what might just lay down the corner:
http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=14833

Posted by: subcom117

Wow, this thread seems to have taken on a life of it’s own…
OK, here is the update…

To answer some questions: I have had many long talks on the phone with Olga. An hour is a short call. It is usually over two hours of meaningful, personal conversation. Because of the time difference, it is difficult to call during the week. To call her on her weeknight means I call in the morning, when I am at work and that is difficult. So, I usually have one short call during the week (30-45 minutes) and I call her on the weekend, usually Saturday night for her. She is usually home and available when I call and we will talk for 2-3 hours.

However, I blocked off a long time at work (hey, it’s good to be the boss) and had a long and productive conversation with Olga. I told her of what I had found and she asked me to read what was written. She seemed genuinely shocked and outraged. She immediately recognized the man from the first posting. They met over a year ago, he came to see her several times, but always was visiting other women, too. The only “exotic” location they travelled to was Turkey. He lives in LA, California and the foreign visa he was trying to get for her was for Mexico. She wondered why it wasn’t for America and it dragged on and on and she finally refused him. And then discovered he was married and had two children!! He had lied to her.

The other was a man she met in Moscow and she said he was no gentleman. She refused him and made an excuse to return home. When I read to her that he claimed she manipulated for money, she adamantly stated she has never asked anyone for money and would not do so.
So, I do believe these messages were posted out of retaliation. All other evidence, and my conversations with her, says that Olga is a genuine woman looking for a good man. She is 35, never married with no children and lives in a remote town in Russia. A GTG is most likely a 20 something in a big city.

Although I will contact an interpreter so I will have a backup plan to leave, if necessary, after our conversation, I feel confident about meeting Olga.
Thanks for all your input,
Tim

Posted by: EasyTarget

SC: It is good that you have taken the time to find out HER side of the story. There is always two sides to every story.

So the difficult part for you is she sincere. If you think she is..visit her and you will know very quickly.

Best of luck to ya

Posted by: ham

much as i do NOT believe in the "blacklist" concept, i'd rather steer clear of dubious persons and circumstances.
Where there is smoke, there is fire.

AS POSTED ELSEWHERE

Quote:

Once I called and said “Guess who?!” To my surprise she guessed a different name. I told her that it wasn't Bill but Don from California. Then she said that she was glad because this Bill guy was someone from the past who had been very mean to her. I let it slide, but later learned that poor Bill was just one of other men she was 'doing' at the same time as me. Man, talk about sloppy seconds!

Posted by: joelunchbox

One positive thing-she didn't get defensive. My one experience with confronting a GTG that I had already met...once I brought up the blacklist thing, she clammed up and got defensive and that was it. Good luck, keep your wits about you.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyTarget

SC: It is good that you have taken the time to find out HER side of the story. There is always two sides to every story.

So the difficult part for you is she sincere. If you think she is..visit her and you will know very quickly.

Best of luck to ya

Actually there are 3 sides to a story ... his side, her side, and the truth!

Stay alert and watch your cash. I wish you the best of luck.

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

much as i do NOT believe in the "blacklist" concept, i'd rather steer clear of dubious persons and circumstances.
Where there is smoke, there is fire

Sure. I can easily imagine the scheme. He invites her to Macdonalds, she frowns, they go to the nearest cafe, he pays 70$ for a meal (an average bill in Moscow) and feels himself robbed. Next time he comes to see her without flowers and hints that he is not going to throw away money. She feels like an idiot not sure of anything anymore. Going to Macdonalds is ridiculous, inviting him to a restaurant is impossible. THey visit museums and eat hot dogs in the streets.

She does not feel happy for some reason. She says, sorry, we are not a good match. He is dissappointed, his heart is broken, he adds the cafe bill to air tickets, hotel bill, phone calls for three previous months, a fridge magnet I Love NY ( a gift) and metro travelcard and feels totally devastated.

He goes back home and adds her to a scam list. He spent $5,000 all in all and she didn't like him. She is a GTG now...

Any girl is a good time girl because no girl wants to be a wasted life girl.

Posted by: subcom117

I sent the links to the website postings to Olga. She emailed me and was genuinely outraged, appreciated my understanding and adamantly tried to assure me that she is genuine in her intentions. I work as an administrator of a department of over 140 people. In dealing with personnel issues, I have learned to trust my gut instinct. Listening to her words and voice, my gut is telling me that Olga is genuine.

Joelunchbox: when confronted, if she clammed up and became defensive…. From my experience, I would think it’s probably because she knew it was the truth, but would not admit it.

In prior conversations some time ago, she told me she rarely eats out because it is expensive. She lives in a pretty backward, rundown city, so it seems unlikely that she would have a taste for “very expensive gifts, dining, deserts and clubs.” If she lived in St. Petersburg or Moscow, I would find this more believable.

Call me crazy, but I am more likely to believe that a man is scheming than a woman. Women seem to stay true to the most hurtful and abusive men. Those of us posting here are likely to be honestly seeking a life partner. But there are plenty of other men who would scheme, lie, play and use a woman. From what she described to me, discovering the man was actually married with children, it seems that is exactly what she had; a scheming, lying, hurtful man who would defame others rather than recognize his bad behavior.

As I read back through the posting, it seems so overly exaggerated, playing to every fear of a WM. Perhaps the upside of this is that Olga is now indirectly on notice. She has assured me she has never asked anyone for money. So, the first time that she might… I’ve got ammunition. But, as I said before, my gut tells me she is OK.

I’ve read Elena Petrova’s eBook, and she says, if a woman seems to want you to buy her something, to say, “You know I like you, but I don’t want to buy that.” It’s OK for the woman to want it, but it’s also OK for the man to be decisive and say No.

Thank you all for your input!!

Posted by: EasyTarget

Seaview: What type of cafe's are you eating at in Moscow. I went to several different cafe's and never spent more then 500 rubles ~ $20 US for food. And they were very nice places to eat. Nicer then the cafes that I go to here in Hawaii.

Almost every cafe has a menu outside that you can glance at to get an idea for the prices.

There is no need to go to McDonald's. Unless you want the toys. :-D

I do agree with you that the term GTG is really terrible. If you are not having a good time with the woman; why are you with her?

Every woman should be able to have fun and not feel inhibited.

Posted by: joelunchbox

Just for the record--I explain why I want to go to Mcdonald's. McD's should never be a first date! I do have an ulterior motive--I want someone who still has her inner child in her and if it is there it will come out at McD's. I just wish I were smaller so I could go into playland. They didn't have those when I was little. I like to eat one good meal a day. The rest of the day I eat cheap and hopefully healthy.

Posted by: ham

Quote:

Any girl is a good time girl because no girl wants to be a wasted life girl.

He goes back home and adds her to a scam list. He spent $5,000 all in all and she didn't like him. She is a GTG now...

Well, it has been thoroughly demonstrated that many women make a living out of visiting strangers (one every fortnight or so in some cases ).

1 if men play the fortnight millionaire, then of course back home cannot live up to the gold standard, they are losers and scheming clowns (http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ad.php?t=14833).
2 if men play low profile as they would at home, they are losers and cheap and nobody wants them.

As someone said elsewhere, probably women dream of "the perfect man" Hugh Grant style (looks, money & all )...sorry beauty queens, but then, why don't you trap a local wealthy "new russian"? Ah, i forgot local men become all abusive unemployed drunkards once Igor exits the bedroom in the morning.

Quote:

he pays 70$ for a meal (an average bill in Moscow)

You've very classy clients...ehm...friends.

Despite the fact some male braggarts love to expound over their third million in their bank account, their Forbes magazine interview or their glamorous job as neurosurgeon or rocket scientist, women ( in turn playing the beauty queen or the visa queen ) are highly unlikely to meet men of higher station than average Joe.
As philosopher Bradley eminently put in his pamphlet: MY STATION & ITS DUTIES.

And if a man has thousands to purposefully burn over a good time fortnight, he'd better hire a couple hookers than chasing empty box MOB dreams.
Anyone interested in lifetime relationship knows dining-out lifestyle isn't right.

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Seaview: What type of cafe's are you eating at in Moscow. I went to several different cafe's and never spent more then 500 rubles ~ $20 US for food. And they were very nice places to eat. Nicer then the cafes that I go to here in Hawaii.

$20 per person, I suppose. THat's not too different from what I am talking about. I meant $70 for two or $35 for one. It's a bit more expensive than you mentioned but if you add two glasses of wine ( or two cocktails) to your 20$ bill it'll be $35

Last weekend I was in Uchkuduk (Taganka) - phantastic Uzbek food. We paid 120$ with tips for two. It's not a classy place, it's well-known for its food.

Quote:

There is no need to go to McDonald's.

I don't mind McDonalds. Moreover, I can give anything for a BigMac, when I am hungry.

Good place, but not for dates.

Quote:

I do agree with you that the term GTG is really terrible. If you are not having a good time with the woman; why are you with her?

Thank you very much for these words.

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Well, it has been thoroughly demonstrated that many women make a living out of visiting strangers (one every fortnight or so in some cases ).

How do they manage it, I wonder? Unless those strangers give them a suitcase of dollars? I am afraid it's impossible to make a living out of yesterday's dinner or faded flowers. If you don't give her cash, she cannot use you. If you give her cash, don't moan afterwards.

Quote:

You've very classy clients...ehm...friends.

Yes, I have. If you have never seen a woman who can pay for a decent meal, change environment

They do exist. They exist in US, btw. Loads of them.

They all prefer classy friends. Sorry

And what about thousands of Moscow office girls? There are a lot of classy offices here with classy restaurants downstairs, so we all lunch out (sort of) every day.

The point is: any woman has her lifestyle and corresponding expectations. Many of these delicate issues should be sorted out in advance, I think.

Posted by: ham

Quote:

The point is: any woman has her lifestyle and corresponding expectations. Many of these delicate issues should be sorted out in advance, I think.

hardly few among western middle class people can afford to "lunch out" as an habit, unless you enter the "fixed price truck driver's meal" or Mac food realm, which you objected to to start with.
Hardly a surprise...commuting & eating out costs would easily erode your wage.
While in the 1970s-early 80s here there was a middle class "food stamp" or "company canteen" culture, these days very few companies have their own canteen (or catering arrangement) OR supply workers with meal tickets.

i have proclaimed until the cows came home that expectations ought to be sorted out BEFORE commitment. A woman's N$ in the FSU can actually fare much better than a western man's much higher (on paper ) wages.

As well, the problem of good-time-girls is not their right play high roller, but the DECEPTION they adopt. Irrespective of how much they are used to spent on cappuccino&brioches, "good time" means they know already they are not interested in Leroy from Harlem or Kojiro from Osaka, or Barney from Minnesota; they know already it's all an act to get undue material advantages...

Quote:

I am afraid it's impossible to make a living out of yesterday's dinner or faded flowers. If you don't give her cash, she cannot use you.

It has been proven that many good time people use visiting strangers to go through their wish lists: a dress from Kojiro; a computer from Barney... some more organized scammers have their "network" of "preferred merchants" and there are reported cases of women buying objects, then bringing them back to the "friendly merchant" for a refund.
Reports abound of (especially agencies) stampeding clients into using certain restaurants or shops rather than else.

Perhaps it is just a game or a waste of money, but if the scam industry (both hard and soft scam schemes ) flourishes, it has to make someone's day. If it were an exercise in futility, you'd have no more scams by now.

You need no suitacases stuffed with cash. I myself supplied a scammer with about one year's worth of Ukraine's minimum wage...just imagine in that year she "worked" only 2 or 3 other men, and she could have easily made 2-3-4-n times the minimum salary doing nothing but sending form letters.

Quote:

They all prefer classy friends. Sorry

That is why i urge men to consider carefully.
I go to a brothel and my €50 bills are my credentials.
They call me "mr. Perfect"...and my name isn't Kurt.

Posted by: Texas Proud

Subcon....

I would still be a bit wary.... in your first post (IIRC)... you had said that Elena's Models removed her profile... they don't do that just for fun.... I would think they would want proof to remove a lady...

So, get in touch with them and see what THEY have on the lady... can't hurt to ask an independent org that has no juice in the game...

Posted by: joelunchbox

I had someone removed from a website by basically telling them my story and sending them of picture of her wearing the same exact clothes with me in the picture. I think most sites are fairly conservative about scammers now. Keep you head up and I am hoping for the best.

Posted by: subcom117

Thanks for your concern...
I am an Administrator for a department of 140 people... I have learned to trust my instinct... my gut feeling...
I spoke with Olga again today. She said she slept very little last night, thinking about what was said of her. She was still upset about it. While she was not defensive, she was adamant that she was genuine in her intentions to me. My sense is that she is being honest with me.

Texas Proud: I asked Elena's Models. They said they had received complaints from men about her. But they have not communicated with Olga about what has happened. So they have made their decision only on one side of the story.

Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:

Originally Posted by subcom117

Thanks for your concern...
I am an Administrator for a department of 140 people... I have learned to trust my instinct... my gut feeling...
I spoke with Olga again today. She said she slept very little last night, thinking about what was said of her. She was still upset about it. While she was not defensive, she was adamant that she was genuine in her intentions to me. My sense is that she is being honest with me.

Texas Proud: I asked Elena's Models. They said they had received complaints from men about her. But they have not communicated with Olga about what has happened. So they have made their decision only on one side of the story.

Well, trust you gut....

but do what Ronald Regan had said... trust but verify... I don't want to cause undo trouble.. but a con person is a con person because they can lie well... and convince you that they are telling the truth... None of us here know her or you... and we are only giving advice from very little information... so don't flame me for being a bit suspicious...

Did they say how many men? And did they give info?? I say that because when I had sent in info to another site (not Elena's)... unlike what Joe had said, they wanted proof from me... just a complaint did not get them to remove her from the site... after sending her letters asking for money, they did remove her from the site...

Posted by: joelunchbox

And that begs the question, "What were the complaints?" That she didn't send sexy pictures, that they sent expensive presents and she did respond in the way they wanted. her attitude is what is keeping your relationship going. Most of us at some time have had misundertandings with our girlfriends/fiances' but how they (and us) handled it is probably what ended it or helped to solidify our relationship. I think all of us are pulling for you two on this. I love happy endings.

Posted by: ham

Quote:

Did they say how many men? And did they give info?? I say that because when I had sent in info to another site (not Elena's)... unlike what Joe had said, they wanted proof from me... just a complaint did not get them to remove her from the site... after sending her letters asking for money, they did remove her from the site...

most of these big junk networked agencies ( no matter how "different" the sales pitch wants to sound ) just
A. acts as front for local agencies
and
1. in most cases mail-in or web profiles are accepted= none really knows who is who...of course there is "the other nice guy three time zones away" in charge of due diligence...yea...

Many agencies adopt this (seemingly legitimate) approach of "at least N complaints needed"...you know...those angry losers bitter over being rejected by beauty queens, or over some $110 pita meal bill...

Of course they might always be waiting and the Nth complaint (needed to remove "her" ) might just be "in the mail".
How would you know, anyways?

TO ME it isn't worth the risk of messing with tainted individuals. Perhaps it's all a conspiracy against poor Cinderella...or perhaps s-he's one of the tens of thousands unscrupulous individuals...weigh the risk carefully.

Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelunchbox

And that begs the question, "What were the complaints?" That she didn't send sexy pictures, that they sent expensive presents and she did respond in the way they wanted. her attitude is what is keeping your relationship going. Most of us at some time have had misundertandings with our girlfriends/fiances' but how they (and us) handled it is probably what ended it or helped to solidify our relationship. I think all of us are pulling for you two on this. I love happy endings.

Here Here!!!!

Posted by: subcom117

Hello, All,
Well, I leave a week from Wednesday and I will arrive to see her on Friday, August 3rd. She will be at the airport to meet me. I will then have a little over a week to find her true intentions.

As I said before, she was greatly concerned about what was said about her. She said she wanted to write long letters to them. I told her that was OK if it made her feel better, but is would not change the response from the men.

She told me she is now unsure how to act around me and expects to cook dinner every night for me because she is fearful of just suggesting we take in a restaurant.

I told her I already anticipated that she would feel that way and that is was OK to suggest things we might do.

In reviewing her story with what was posted, he came to see her several times. If she was a GTG scammer, why would you come back after the first time? When he wanted to visit at the end of December, she asked him to come for New Year’s, but he only came days earlier, and she believes he spent time with another women over New Years.

If she was a GTG scammer, after meeting more than once, why would he want to get a foreign visa to Mexico? So he could get scammed more? He is married and lives in Pasadena, CA.

I believe her story and find these holes in his… But, as she told me, she in honest in her intentions toward me, and I will see it for my own eyes when I arrive in Ulyanovsk.
Yes, trust, but verify,… that I am trying to do…
Thanks for all you input!!

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by subcom117

If she was a GTG scammer, after meeting more than once, why would he want to get a foreign visa to Mexico? So he could get scammed more? He is married and lives in Pasadena, CA.

Good luck. Go with your instincts. Some people want to use others and react very destructively when they are rejected. "I will make your life difficult if I can't have you".

Posted by: subcom117

I have just returned today from visiting Olga in her home city. I am happy to say she is exactly like the woman I had gotten to know via email and phone. She is kind, beautiful, genuine and sincere. She looked out for me, cooked for me more than once at her flat, and took time off from work for the entire time I was there so she could spend the time with me.

She never asked for a dime (kopek), and when I offered financial reimbursement for food, такси, etc., she refused it. (But I found way to insist).

Before I left to visit her, I asked her about what had been written about her. She said it was lies from men she had refused and I would see the truth with my own eyes. Now I have and the postings were clearly made from a motive of retaliation. I'm very glad I trusted my intuition, as I have met a real gem.

That being said, the story doesn't necessarily have a happy ending. Perhaps more of an uncertain one. Out of a sense of privacy, I don't really want to post the personal details of our meeting, but for those of you who have "been there done that," I would like to get some feedback through a PM. I'll try to prepare a Reader's Digest version for your feedback.

Posted by: joelunchbox

It took a lot of faith to step out like that. It will be something she will remember for a long time. I know the relationship still has a ways to go, but I am still pulling for you two.

Posted by: subcom117

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelunchbox

It took a lot of faith to step out like that. It will be something she will remember for a long time. I know the relationship still has a ways to go, but I am still pulling for you two.

In many emails, from before I left to see her to after I have returned, Olga has thanked me for my understanding. So, Joe, I think you are right. I had sent her the links to the scammer site with the articles written about her, so she knows the concerns I had, as a foreign man, to read that about her.

I could tell when I was with her that she was uncertain how to conduct herself, fearing I might conclude what was written was true. She cooked for me several times and when we went out to eat, she hardly ordered anything.
So, it might have been a bit awkward, but we still had a great time. We spent several days walking and sightseeing around town and spent three days at the beach.

After reviewing this thread, I am amused that several of you so easily concluded that she was undoubtedly a GTC scammer. Perhaps those who post here are genuine people and would, therefore, not conclude the man might be disingenuous.

Of course, if I had discovered the scam postings shortly after I had begun communication with Olga, I'm sure I would have moved on, as there are so many other women to communicate with. But having communicated with her for four months by then, I was in a different position to evaluate the postings versus the woman I had come to know.

Now we will see where the future, and our next meeting, will take us.

Thanks again for your interest and input!
Tim

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Good luck, Subcom117. I, for one didn't think your lady sounded like a scammer.

This whole business is not an easy one at all and things can never be straightforward. We all have different views as to what we regard as red flags, but some are so blatantly obviously that those that ignore them get bitten later. The matter is complicated further by some of us [Western men] who become bitter after not getting what we want and brand the unfortunate woman a scammer. The innocent woman gets onto the scammer list and becomes an untouchable to the other Western men.

The fact is that real scammers are not very smart and they can be discovered within the first 2 to 3 letters, unless she (he) is communicating with a Western man who is not very computer literate. Two years ago, I did not know the existence of scammers and I nearly paid out some money.

I am very grateful for the existence of sites like this one.

Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote :After reviewing this thread, I am amused that several of you so easily concluded that she was undoubtedly a GTC scammer. Perhaps those who post here are genuine people and would, therefore, not conclude the man might be disingenuous.

Response: IIRC, you had said that Elena's Models had removed her... that is not something they just do on a whim.. so yes, I would 'conclude' that she was a GTG scammer. But we are all wrong at times...

Quote: The fact is that real scammers are not very smart and they can be discovered within the first 2 to 3 letters, unless she (he) is communicating with a Western man who is not very computer literate. Two years ago, I did not know the existence of scammers and I nearly paid out some money.

Response: Ahhhh... MOST are not very smart and easy to discover in a few letters... some are VERY smart and are much harder.. I have read about some of the GTGs that are convincing that they are going to come and marry you... heck, so even DO come and marry you and it is still a 'scam' because what they wanted was the green card or to get a divorce settlement all along... heck, for some that is like hitting the LOTTO jackpot... only need ONE to win.

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud

Quote :

Quote: The fact is that real scammers are not very smart and they can be discovered within the first 2 to 3 letters, unless she (he) is communicating with a Western man who is not very computer literate. Two years ago, I did not know the existence of scammers and I nearly paid out some money.

Response: Ahhhh... MOST are not very smart and easy to discover in a few letters... some are VERY smart and are much harder.. I have read about some of the GTGs that are convincing that they are going to come and marry you... heck, so even DO come and marry you and it is still a 'scam' because what they wanted was the green card or to get a divorce settlement all along... heck, for some that is like hitting the LOTTO jackpot... only need ONE to win.

I totally agree with you, but I think we are sometimes too haste in our actions and ignore red flags. Early stages are very important and we need to question our partners at every stage. I feel we sometimes think that any current problems are too small to worry about, or would disappear once the lady is with us. How many guys do we hear retrospectively mourn about red flags that they ignored in the courting stages?

Anyway, the reality is that every relationship will have some risks. There will be no zero risk relationships. Some women with scammer intentions may change their ways if they meet their dream man and those with well meaning intentions may change after finding out they have a wider choice than they had where they were.

Posted by: j_c

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoeastLJ

. How many guys do we hear retrospectively mourn about red flags that they ignored in the courting stages?

Anyway, the reality is that every relationship will have some risks. There will be no zero risk relationships. Some women with scammer intentions may change their ways if they meet their dream man and those with well meaning intentions may change after finding out they have a wider choice than they had where they were.

So what is the timescale if a relationship breaks down that we do not blame it on the "red flags", are they red flags?? define red flags??

If after 3 years the realtionship ends, is she a scammer because she is russian and it did not work out between you, or do we say she was a scammer because we are bitter and looking for an excuse?

Maybe we are caught up in the whole love thing, and got carried away with it, would it be the same if they were the same nationality as us??

Not aimed at you specifically GoEast, this is a "rant" to all, because we all think along the lines of your post.

JC

Posted by: Texas Proud

Quote:

Originally Posted by j_c

I will throw out an opinion.....

Under what you asked.. it matters what she was after... if she was stringing you along, even for three years, to get into your country and out of FSU.. PLANNING to get rid of you when she could and still stay there... then she is a scammer...

Now, the vast majority (and I mean VAST) is that you two were not compatible and you go your separate ways.... just like if you had met a local girl... no bad intent on either side... just that you were not really in love...

BTW, we forget that there are the 'bad' men in this mix also... who lie about what they have, who are control freaks (and will not admit it), who actually do beat their wives... or are sex tourist and will say or do anything to 'get some'..

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by j_c

The reality is that international marriages will have 'scammer' as the easy option for family and friends to pick on as the culprit for a failed relationship. I keep saying, may be wrongly, that most of us here have been married before, but we would not blame our previous break ups on any evil intentions by our exs, even if the marriage lasted less than 3 years. If we marry someone from another country, I am sure there will be no other reasons even if the marriage breaks up after 10 years. Some women, not all, will have scammer intentions. Young ones may think that an investment of 3 - 5 years is worthwhile and can string a man along for as long as it is necessary. Sometimes marriages will end after a short time for a number of other reasons - those young girls getting married for the first time may have read too many fairly tales (remember the girl who came to visit Dave in England and thought that England was full of Castles and Kings and Queens and princes...), or it could be that the Western men wanted a housemaid, and the woman wanted a real partnership. incompatibility. And yes, there are men too, with not so innocent intentions.

It is not possible to define red flags because it can be a red flag in one instance but not in another. It is all to do with context. For example, if a woman is really religious/traditional and does not want to have sex before the two of you get married then it's fine. However, if the woman puts you in an apartment far away from where she and her family live in order that she can carry on with the other 101 relationships - then it is a red flag. Some women will refuse sex before marriage but will be with you for the majority of the time you are visiting her. She will probably rent a flat in the same neighbourhood as she lives so that you can see each other everyday - after all the idea is to learn more about each other.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

If you reaaly want to, you can find "red flags" with any woman/relationships". Both of the women I got to know showed scammer qualities. Many people thought my first girl was a scammer.

If you think the girl is worth it, stick with her until you can discover the truth. If she is a scammer, she will eventually show her hand. Just keep your wallet closed and your ears open.