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Puzzled

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Posted by: GregKTM300

Hello,
I’ve been monitoring threads on this site for a while but have never made a post, and yeah, I’m a newbie! I have read some very informative and thoughtful comments here so I am asking for some comments and thoughts on some questions I have regarding Russian-Western relationships. I think this is the right forum for this thread.

I’ve been corresponding and talking with a lady (Elena) in Russia for a few months now. We seem to be hitting it off pretty well and are planning to meet in Europe this summer. I’m excited about this but at the same time very nervous. Let’s say for the sake of argument that we really hit it off when we meet remembering that we will only spend about 7-10 days together. I think that you have to spend time together before knowing if you can commit to a long-term relationship or marriage, 7-10 days isn’t long enough in my mind. So, my question; how does the average Joe swing this? I don’t have the time and don’t have the money to fly to Russia to spend 2-3 months with Elena. I also don’t have the money to fly to Russia to see her every other month or so. Don’t get me wrong, I have a good job and make a decent, okay probably above average salary but I also have 3 kids from a previous marriage and a pretty substantial monthly child support payment which brings my disposable income down significantly. I don’t want to get her a fiancé visa to come here for 3 months so we can spend some time together just to find out if we’re compatible. That is doing both of us a disservice, especially her because she would be leaving her country to come over here based on 7-10 days together. I’m not sure she would even consider that, she’s a smart lady and understands reality. I also understand that you can only get 3 fiancé visas in your life. I haven’t discussed this topic with Elena, I’m just trying to think ahead and plan.

So what do other average guys do, or have done, to be able to spend the necessary time together to determine if they’re right for each other? I’m not looking for an internet romance. I’m serious about finding that someone to spend my life with. Well, I guess I could take a few months off to spend with her but that would deplete my savings and I wouldn’t have the money available to bring her over here. I understand that it will cost between 10-20K (USD) to get her over here. Is that an accurate cost estimate? I’m sure this is not a unique issue. What have I not thought of? Okay you creative RMP folks the ball is in your court! I will appreciate any words of wisdom and/or advise.
Greg


Posted by: Jerico

First let me say I hope everything goes well with this whole thing, hehe.
This process does take some money and it can be difficult for the average Joe.
I would consider myself average and make OK money ( not great) and I am still to this day paying for this whole process ( fiancee visa,airfare,lawyer fees,etc.)
It was and is totally worth the money. The whole process cost me about 18 grand.(three trips) and i would do it again in a second.


A week is not a lot of time to get to know someone but unfortunately most people just cant go visit them 5 or 6 times to quote " Make sure she is the RIGHT one "
This is a gamble and you take your chances but in reality you take your chances with anybody, even if you have been dating for a while you never know once your married.


Quote:
I also understand that you can only get 3 fiancé visas in your life.

Never heard that before and it doesn`t seem true to me. You can marry as many times as you want to if your an American Citizen but 3 fiancee visas might throw out some red flags.


You know it used to be hard for them to get visas to the USA but now my wife ( who is Russian) tells me that her friends are getting visitor visas to the USA easily now. I dont know why this is true however.

If money is tight it might be advisable to have her try to get a visitors visa to visit you which will be significantly cheaper.
Then she would be staying with you and it would be closer to a marriage situation ie= her living in your home.
I would definately check into this option.

Also 10 to 20 thousand to get her over here seems extreme more like 3 to 4
IMHO


good luck!!!
Jerry


Posted by: GregKTM300

Thanks Jerry! I will check into a visitors visa. That may be the way to go if she can get one. I have seen several articles and posts that they are extremely rare to get unless things have changed just recently (last few months). Let me clarify, 10-20K (USD) for everything, phone calls, trip(s) to Russia, lawyer fees, fiance visa, her ticket to USA, greencard, etc.

If I find the right woman I'm sure it will be well worth what ever I end up spending and I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. Thanks again.
Greg


Posted by: X'Nedra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
.If money is tight it might be advisable to have her try to get a visitors visa to visit you which will be significantly cheaper.
Then she would be staying with you and it would be closer to a marriage situation ie= her living in your home.
I would definately check into this option.


Welcome

I could not agree more (although my situation is different as I met my "mate in the US while he was here on a work visa) We lived together for 2 months before he went back to Russia and fortunately it was harmonious for the both of us. We are currently in the process of a Fiancee visa. I supported him in the US for two months for about $3,000 (That is including the cost of travel to NYC, Washington DC, Boston, Key West, Miami and St Augustine). It will cost me at least $2,500 for my upcoming 10 day trip. Huge difference. If you can find a way, bring her here for the visit.

I did not have much to offer, but I hope that it helped a little. Welcome to the club! And if things work out ...... You are in for quite the interesting life!

Best wishes


Posted by: cedarwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Never heard that before and it doesn`t seem true to me. You can marry as many times as you want to if your an American Citizen but 3 fiancee visas might throw out some red flags.good luck!!!
Jerry






As for money it just all depends some people get lucky and it works out well very quckly. For me I have spent more than $10,000 and I am not any wear near a visa application.


Posted by: cedarwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregKTM300
Thanks Jerry! I will check into a visitors visa. That may be the way to go if she can get one. I have seen several articles and posts that they are extremely rare to get unless things have changed just recently (last few months). Let me clarify, 10-20K (USD) for everything, phone calls, trip(s) to Russia, lawyer fees, fiance visa, her ticket to USA, greencard, etc.

If I find the right woman I'm sure it will be well worth what ever I end up spending and I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. Thanks again.
Greg



A friend of mine and her mother from Moscow tried and they were denied. The mother owns 3 apartment buildings (The whole building) they also had more than $50,000 in a bank in Moscow but still they could not get visa.

As for work Visa I do not know, just in the last week I have meet 7 Russian women in the US, 5 could not speak any English but some how they were working at a deli I visited. I would make a guess they were relatives of the deli owner.

Another friend of mine tried to get a work visa to the US for au-par, she had spent time in Germany and Canada working but her US visa was denied even thou the job was already lined up.

I think if you tell the US you are Hispanic you will get the visa all my Brothers in-laws never have any difficulty. Seems to be a double standard.


Posted by: Turboguy

First off Greg, you have your head screwed on pretty straight for a beginner. I think you have been doing more reading here than you admit to which is great.

First off the tourist or visitors visa may sound like a great idea but it isn't going to happen unless there is more to her than you have told us. If she is a little older, is leaving underage children there, owns property and has a good job it is possible. Otherwise the chances are almost nil. If you want to try you would only be gambling $ 100.00 but quite frankly spending that on power ball tickets would give you a better chance. If she has immediate family here then it might be possible. I am taking brothers or sisters or the like.

Before I get to the good stuff, you say you are going to meet her in Europe? That worries me a bit. It is the only thing you said that does. Is Europe, like eastern Europe or is Europe like Paris? If it is the latter, be careful. One of the top scams is the meet you in Paris one. Actually it is something like # 3 or 4, with the visit you in the USA # 1.

My recommendation is to make the first trip to see her in her home town. You need to see her in her envrironment. You need to meet her family and friends.

The cost of travel. The best deal is to try to avoid summer. The fares double, the hotels and apartments are higher. I was just testing out a new travel site (which did not do me any good) and the Airfare from Pittsburgh where I live to Moscow was about $ 900.00 rt. That was for travel in May. I am not traveling in May, actaully I am traveling to Sochi next Wedneday and my airfare for that was $ 1100.00. That gives you an idea of airfares.

You really want to try to stay in an Apartment. In Moscow you are looking at $ 100 a night, maybe a bit more. In some of the smaller cities perhaps $ 50.00 a night.

Depending on your points of travel Airfare, not in summer, $ 800-1400.00 Lodging, for lets say 10 days, $ 500-1000.00. Anyway you can probably make a trip for $ 3000-3500.00.

How quick is too quick. You have yet to meet a Russian woman. Believe me, you can think you are ready to marry one in 4-5 days but I agree it is not a good move. For me, on my first trip we decided we were the right people for each other. On my second, longer trip, we agreed we wanted to get married. On my third, I took a ring along and we became officially engaged. We had a lot of cummunication in between those trips and I did not feel I was rushing anything or planning to marry someone I didn't know.

Ok, hope I have not put you to sleep, I am almost done for now. As far as the number of Fiancee visa's you are allowed. It isn't 3, it is 2. This is part of the IMBRA law that went into effect March 6th, 2006. We all hate the law and consider it unconstitutional and an infringment on our rights but we are stuck with it. You also can not do a 2nd K-1 within 24 months. HOWEVER, you can apply for a waver if you are wanting to do a 3rd, K-1 or do a second within 24 months. It is simple you just write a letter and so far I have not heard of one waver being denied. The are looking very hard at 2nd or more K-1's. Mine has been stuck in Adminstrative Review for over 2 months now. (two filings in less than 2 years, 22 months apart actually) Next tip, when you are ready do not use a Lawyer. Do it yourself. The current cost is $ 170 to file and 80-100 for the medical depending on which of the two clinics you choose and $ 100.00 for the interview. Rates are going up substantually in October. When you are ready to do one, post here and I or someone will send you to a site that will make it as easy as could be. A lawyer will slow you down and increase the risk of problems. Trust me, I will prove it later.

Good luck


Posted by: Turboguy

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedarwind
Yes under the New immigration law you can only receive 3, K1, K3 (or combination of) visa’s in your life time and there is a minimum 2 year waiting period between being able to apply for them. There is a special stipulation that you could get granted a forth but it is only for special situations.

SO if you got a visa for you women and she came here and you did not marry in the required 90 days she would have to leave the US then you would have to wait 2 years to start the process to apply for a new visa. The law was passed to stop the Sex trade and to help in The green card scams from both men and women.

As for money it just all depends some people get lucky and it works out well very quckly. For me I have spent more than $10,000 and I am not any wear near a visa application.


Despite the fact we have 2 who have said the limit is 3 visas and one (me) who said it is 2, it is two. K-3 visas do not fall under that so you can go there and get married to as many as you want as often as you want but of course only one at a time.

The prime focus of the law was to reduced domestic abuse among MOB's. The only study ever done on the subject was done by the US government in 1999 and showed the domestic abuse rate with MOB's to be 1/7 of the number of the same with American women. I am at a lost to know what problem they see that they need to fix with such an outlandish law.

$ 10,000 is a good start. You would probably fall off your chair if I told you what I had spent. I will give you a hint though. I am well over 20 trips and some include going with my fiancee to places like Egypt in December and Thailand in Febuary and paying for both of us. I am sure you will soon find your gal. If I had a place like this to learn from I could have saved more money than most spend.


Posted by: cedarwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboguy
Despite the fact we have 2 who have said the limit is 3 visas and one (me) who said it is 2, it is two. K-3 visas do not fall under that so you can go there and get married to as many as you want as often as you want but of course only one at a time.

The prime focus of the law was to reduced domestic abuse among MOB's. The only study ever done on the subject was done by the US government in 1999 and showed the domestic abuse rate with MOB's to be 1/7 of the number of the same with American women. I am at a lost to know what problem they see that they need to fix with such an outlandish law.

$ 10,000 is a good start. You would probably fall off your chair if I told you what I had spent. I will give you a hint though. I am well over 20 trips and some include going with my fiancee to places like Egypt in December and Thailand in Febuary and paying for both of us. I am sure you will soon find your gal. If I had a place like this to learn from I could have saved more money than most spend.



Yes you are correct it is 2 visa's (I should have learned by now not to post after spending 14 hours at work, seems to cloud the memory)

As for the $10,000, in a prior post we had started a $10,000 club but I think soon we will have to change that to the $20,000 club.

The worst was the $2,000 I spent on airplane tickets. Then 2 weeks prior to leaving all communication stopped with the girl I thought I was going to possibly marry. ( no problem with girl it was the mother)


Posted by: GregKTM300

Thanks so far to everyone that has replied. I appreciate all of your posts. To address Turboguy's question about where we would meet. Elena suggested we meet potentially in Greece. She wants to take her 15 yo daughter abroad and vacation at a beach. I admit I'm a newbie to this whole dating a RW thing and I'm 47. To let you know how I got into this I was using a large online dating service (Yahoo Personals) to meet ladies in and around Portland. However, apparently people from anywhere around the world can access the site and send an email to anyone. I began receiving emails from Russian ladies but quickly figured out they were trying scam me but I became intrigued with Russian women. I began researching and reading about Russia, Russian culture, and Russian-Western relationships and marriages. I have read 3 books and many articles about Russian culture and history, women, and Russian-Western relationships. I followed threads on this site for a while and think this is a great site with really good thoughtful and helpful folks. I will continue to learn as much as I can about Russia and Russian culture. In my research to find out if the ladies that were writing me were legitimate or not (none of them were legitimate) I came across Elena’s Models website so I posted a profile and that's how I met Elena. So I have done a fair amount of research but consider myself to still be a newbie.

We haven't made any definite plans on where to meet. I have sent her flowers on Woman's Day and her birthday as well as a parcel which I later found out she may have to pay a tax to receive. I stated 3 different times that if she had to pay a tax I would gladly reimburse her. She said a definitive no, I'm not worried about it all three times. Could she still be a scammer, yes it's possible but I really get the feeling she's not. We've been corresponding and talking on the phone for a few months. In my limited exposure to scammers they try to get money out of you within 1-1.5 months and would never give their phone numbers because many are men. I appreciate noticing a possible red flag and bringing it to my attention and I will continue to be careful.

Please keep the advise coming, this is great!

Greg


Posted by: Jerico

Quote:
I began receiving emails from Russian ladies but quickly figured out they were trying scam me but I became intrigued with Russian women. I began researching and reading about Russia,


Hehehe, How do you think I married a russian girl and a few others around here.
It all started with the scam emails just like you.Same exact scenario!!
Thats what got me started.

Jerry


Posted by: Turboguy

The scammers have started a lot of men into the search for an FSU woman. That is the one good thing about it.

My gut feelings are that you gal is ok. By the way, I met my fiancee on Elena's Models as well.

If she were a scammer the problem with meeting in a place like Greece is that she needs a visa to get there. About the only way to get one is to arrange it through one of her local travel agents who can handle both the tickets and the visa. That means you have to send cash to a woman you have never met which is a high risk proposition. Personally I think she is ok.

Some scammers try to get money out of you right away. The big time ones who make millions scamming guys always will. There are small time scammers who will wait for a while and build up trust. I have had scammers I wrote for 4 or 5 months and ususally they are the ones who want to meet in a vacation setting and then they don't show.

There are also some sites that list scammers with photos. One of the largest is russiantearoom.net. I have found several of the ones who either scammed me or tried to there including one who wrote for 5 months and wanted a meeting in Paris. (after all it is the city of love, or so she said). She is listed on RTR for just that scam.


Posted by: Spakoyna

Greg! I believe I would meet her in Russia 1st! Preferrably in her hometown...if not Moscow. Greece is a pretty big step for a 1st meeting IMHO. You can probably go to Russia and visit with her for 3 times vs. the cost of 1 trip to Greece with daughter in tow! I'm not saying she is...but there are quite a few vacation gals out there.


Posted by: I/O

Greg: I have some concerns about meeting in a mutual location. I think you are delaying the necessary which is to see her on her home turf. That is the one advantage the guys have in this pursuit. The opportunity to meet on her home turf.

Back to your original question....how does Joe Average pull this off. Mostly they don't. Mostly they get lost in the process/expense/time etc. It can be done with limited capital, but you will need to get very smart and careful about it all.

Reckon on a minimum of 4 trips to her home town. (Thats just a guide) If you can get her over to see your patch, great, but I think Turbo has given you the real heads up there. (Slim to nil chance)

Your 20K thing is not far wide as a guide, but that is not all at once, you can reckon on somewhere around that over the process time and that should include your travel/trips. For mine, I would be thinking in terms of a minimum of 18 months meeting to marriage. 3 more trips in that time and as much face time as is possible.

You do really need to pony up to these sort of numbers if you are going to succeed. Sure plenty will example exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. The first thing you need to do is plan for the long haul and organise your finances/lifestyle accordingly, then you can move forward, but one thing to remember, if and when you get married, the real expenses start then.

FWIW


Posted by: ira156

I agree with most of the guys here. I would choose to meet her in her home city...you get an idea of what her friends and family are like...usually a good indicator. The time frame differs from one person to another but you should definately make more than one trip. I personally met on the first trip and things grew from there...the second was living together for nearly a month and im heading back again soon. Good luck


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by I/O
organise your finances/lifestyle accordingly, then you can move forward,


I think this is the crux of your matter. If you cannot see yourself being able to merge your lives together and have all the neccessary finances and lifestyle you both want to enjoy and where then it is best to understand that as soon as possible and not waste your time and hers.

I know in my situation i was not looking for a FSU women or women overseas but
i meet one online and we hit it off well enough to want to meet. I'm a bit of a free spirit so a bit easier for me not having past marriage issues etc. but i still treated it just as a normal relationship in essence apart from the obvious language and location issues. I was not thinking marriage when i meet her, i was treating it to get to know her more and see if she was a good match for me to consider more than a friend. I did not understand the difficulties of visa
issues etc. at the time so in the sense i was in the dark but would have found them out in time and realise where there is a will there is a way. I know if i'd developed that relationship as more than friends then i would have taken a different route to the norm.
At the end of the day you have to see a way you can do it yourself and lifestyle/finance issues are crucial to organise to be able to do it.
All the best


Posted by: GregKTM300

You guys and gals do give good advice which is why I put a post up. I appreciate your thoughts. The two main pieces of advice that I'm seeing here are:

1. Meet her in her home town or at least Russia. I totally agree with that. The thing is that she wrote that she hoped for a meeting sometime and I wrote back that I wanted to visit her in Tomsk (where she lives) and that I have already begun getting a Passport (which I have). I mentioned I thought I would fly to Tomsk in September. My reasoning for September was it will give us time to write and talk more to make sure we still want to meet; I think I can get less expensive tickets in September and it is not winter yet; it takes so long to get a Passport these days because of the new law about traveling out of the US even to Mexico or Canada that you have to have a Passport so everyone is getting Passports and it takes much longer than it did even 6 months ago. I know you can pay to have it expedited but then I go back to my first reason for picking September. She wrote back and said that she had not told the rest of her family (with the exception of her daughter) that she was corresponding with me. She wasn't sure how her parents would handle it. I understand how she feels because I haven't told my family. I think they will think I'm crazy but I will deal with that when and if the time comes. So, I think she wants to meet me in a more neutral place for the first time to see if we like each other. If we do then I think she will be more comfortable telling her family about me as I will be telling my family about her. Just one more tid bit, she hasn't asked me for money for a trip to Greece and if she did that would be a real big red flag for me. Okay ol' wise RMP folks, am I missing anything here, any red flags?

2. It will take money and not just one outlay of cash but over the long haul. I do realize this. Maybe in my original post I made it sound like I'm living from paycheck to paycheck. I didn't mean to give that impression. Yes, I have substantial child support payments but I make a pretty decent living, I'm just not rich. I could fly to Russia a 2-3 times/year I just can't fly over there every other month to see her. I was hoping to not have to drag this long distance relationship out that long but if that's what it takes that's what it takes if we have the same feeling for each other after we meet and spend some time together. I think my finances will be fine for us to have a comfortable living situation.

I am not a very spontaneous guy when it comes to serious life choices like this. I make very decisive and deliberate steps after gathering and analyzing the information available (you guys are giving me information). Yes, I am serious about finding someone but I'm not looking for just a wife, we have to have chemistry and we have to want to be with each other. I am willing to do what it takes if she is the right woman. Just so it's all out there she is 40 so I think she is mature and knows what she wants and is serious about finding it; meaning I think we both will have to have strong feelings for each other after we meet for this relationship to move forward.

Don't mean to put you to sleep but just trying to give you the facts as things come up. Thanks for all of your thoughts and advise. One can never have to much information, okay they can but not in this situation!

Greg


Posted by: I/O

Greg: Red flags? Not red but a certain shade of pink. Here's the drill. First and foremost, Tomsk is riddled with scammers. Certainly there is a lot of decent genuine women there but get clued in.

Why am I going this way? Meeting or desire to meet in an nuetral location is not uncommon and is no problem in and of itself. BUT and hey yeah there is always a but.......this girl is 40 and concerned about what her parents or family might think? Ok possible, but if she is, then she has an awfully long way to go before she is going to spell out to them sometime in the future that ...Hey yep I'm outta here, marrying a guy from another country etc.

If I was in your boots right now, I would be pushing pretty dammed hard to meet in Tomsk. It is easy to get to and big enough that her parents don't have to know you're there. I'm afraid I am always sus of this meet in another location thing.

Certainly there can be justifications for it and for some it has worked and worked well, but what does it achieve other than meeting? You are both fish out of water and neither is entirely comfortable. IMO the time for third location vacations is AFTER you are committed to each other and perhaps only after marriage.

You are never going to see the real deal until you see her deal. That is her at home.

Time: How much time is enough time? Who knows? What is certain, is much time is never too much time. If you can afford to visit, say 3 times in a year, that will be often enough, because by the time you prepare and recover from each trip, you'll find that'll keep you fairly busy. If she is a "Keeper" type of genuine Russian woman she'll stay the distance. Believe me, they are very sensitive, but as tough as old boots when it comes to seeing something through. From my experience, the Siberians even more so.

All the best

I/O


Posted by: vic2012

Greg.

The advice from I/O is spot on (and I'm the first to applaud good advice, when I see it).

You should read this thread:
http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=14242.

I posted somewhere in there, the benefits of meeting in her home town first.

My fiancé is from Omsk, a large Siberian city (about 600 miles from Tomsk). I took a downtown apartment and she came to visit every day. After a few days, when she realised I was OK and that, the relationship might be going somewhere, I got introduced to her young boy and her family.

On my last trip we met up in St Petersburg.

A few guys here have made a single trip, got engaged and have come back for their K1. It can work. But I'm a firm advocate of coming home first and giving the matter a lot of thought, in the cold light of day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregKTM300
I think that you have to spend time together before knowing if you can commit to a long-term relationship or marriage, 7-10 days isn’t long enough in my mind. So, my question; how does the average Joe swing this? I don’t have the time and don’t have the money to fly to Russia to spend 2-3 months with Elena.
A question which comes up a lot and one that my family were interested in.

It started with emails 4 or 5 times a week. Soon, I found that, I couldn’t wait to get home to see if there was a reply. Then I knew, I was falling for her.

Then came the phone calls. Her English was not too good and the first call had lots of long pauses as I sat in from of my screen, translating what I wanted to say and then trying to read to her, the Cyrillic translation.

But an hour a night talking and her English improved rapidly.

I’ve stated a few times on RMP; after the 100’s of hours of emails and phone calls, I know her better than anyone, I’ve ever known before!

And, get Voip, you can call Tomsk for free every night.


Posted by: Spakoyna

Greg, About the trip to Greece. Better than 90% of Russian women can not afford to travel. I believe the marriage agency business has been around long enough where most automatically assume the man is going to pay all the expenses when meeting a lady. I am not saying all but the majority! Look at the recent thread where the lady paid for her airfare to meet a guy. He didn't reimburse her for her ticket. Later she broke it off with him.

I found the thread: http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=14242


Posted by: GoingToRussia

First of all welcome to the RMP. It sounds like you've done more research then most members when they were newbies so this is a plus. I was very "wet behind the ears" when i joined over a year ago.

Other thoughts -

If you get a visitor's/tourist's/student/work or any other type of visa, you can marry her but she has to go back to Russia and you have to apply for a K-3 visa. So don't think you can save money this way. Yes this type of visa is a good idea but something that probably won't happen.

Many members see and meet there RW 1 time for a week and decide to start the paper work for a K-1/fiancee visa. I went twice and on the second trip I was married. The first trip was 10 days and the second trip was 14 days. We had the advantage of e-mails, SMS, web cams, and telephone during the week so we were in touch many times everyday. So it is possible to propose on the first or second trip. If you start the paperwork, it takes at least 7 months now so you can fit a second trip in between this time to make sure this is what you want. You can always submit a waiver if things don't work out and only be out about $200. If you continue with the visa then you are way ahead of the game.

Not all scammers want money. Some just want a good time at a European city where the guy pays for everything and then when he returns to his country its ... "who are you again"? It's over in other words. She doesn't want to see you again unless your willing to pay for another vacation.

Other scammers just want a green card and will "play the game" to get one.

One more thing. You might want to stop by a thread called The Pit. It is the American meeting place. The website is http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...&page=114&pp=15

Good luck Greg. I'm always available in The Pit or through a PM.


Posted by: Ade

Hi,

And good luck with it all. I would say, as others have, that you should meet in her home town first, before you go on holiday; and you shouldn't be at all uneasy or embarassed about telling friends and family that you've met someone in another country.

Greece as a destination looks a bit iffy - looking at the Greek Embassy in the UK site, the girl from Russia would need a visa, and to get one she needs a letter from her employers, and provisional hotel and flight bookings.

If she'd suggested Turkey or Egypt as a holiday destination it would look a little better, because of the ease of getting visas there.

Of course, it may just be that she likes the idea of Greece for a holiday and hasn't looked at how to fet there yet.

Take care - be cautious but not timid; but your first responsibility is to yourself.

Good luck,

Ade


Posted by: I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingToRussia
Many members see and meet there RW 1 time for a week and decide to start the paper work for a K-1/fiancee visa. I went twice and on the second trip I was married. The first trip was 10 days and the second trip was 14 days. We had the advantage of e-mails, SMS, web cams, and telephone during the week so we were in touch many times everyday. So it is possible to propose on the first or second trip.


GTR, As you know I have a lot of time for you and a great deal of respect for you as a person, but my kindly friend this is very bad advice. Read your words again and then look at the net result.


Posted by: ira156

You dont mention where in Russia she is from. I would just say that you have an interest in Russia and want to meet her in her home town. Dont be worried that she doesnt want the parents to know...there are many instances where...either they have been ridiculed because they had a previous western relationship fail. She may be embarrassed about where she lives. My Nat was this way inclined...she now lives in Moscow...and was a little embarrassed in showing me her home town. It was actually a great thing as i have seen where she came from and how hard she worked to improve her life.

I personaly would never visit in a neutral country on my first meeting. By the way Russia is a great place and a wonderful holiday...so you really are in a no lose situation.


Posted by: Turboguy

I do have to agree with I/O. How quick you can do it is not something we really should encourage. There are people who are quite sure very quickly but it is far more important to make sure you are not making a mistake. Getting it done is not the goal for most of us. It is laying the foundation for a happy married life that is important.

I would say not to rush. You may find yourself certain in a short time but what ever is right for you is ok, just be sure it is right for you.


Posted by: ira156

The other thing to consider is getting back home and over the euphoria of it all. I found it very good to go back the second time and "live together" for nearly a month. We all have different timeframes but i would rather go through the pain of being apart now ...than jumping in too deeply too quickly and having an unsuccessful marriage.


Posted by: Chrismc

Greg

I agree with everyoe on here who has said meet her in her home town, first, they are correct you do get to see here in her own environment and that is a good thing. BUT the other reason, what happens if you meet in Greece or another country and you hate each other from day one, then you have another 7 or 8 days to think of something to do and to spend with a women you don't get on with or may even hate? That would be a nightmare for both of you!

Also it doesn't give you a chance to use 'Plan B' meeting others while you are there, as you will be responsible for the ladies safety and entertainment that you agreed to meet for a week. Believe me, that will be hard work and certainly not enjoyable.

The first visit I made to Ukraine I met a lady in her home town, we had got on fantastically well for months prior to our meeting, however, a day after meeting I couldn't wait to get away from her and put into action Plan B, there is no way I could have done or would have done that if we had met in a neutral country.

Chris


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:
Originally Posted by I/O
GTR, As you know I have a lot of time for you and a great deal of respect for you as a person, but my kindly friend this is very bad advice. Read your words again and then look at the net result.


Read my post again. I said many member go once and marry, like Fireman Sam, Gonlaz, and Dagpop. I know Sam isn't married yet but he's well on his way. Gonlaz is filling his fiancee visa soon. Dagpop has been married for almost 9 months and things are great with him! I went twice and it didn't work. I agree the longer you "date" someone the better chance of things working out. I was just pointing out that it is possible to go once and submit the paper work. It will take at least 7 months so you have that time to get to know each other better and see each other at least 1 more time and maybe twice.

Cheers Mate!


Posted by: vic2012

GTR, I dont believe, for one moment, that, only going to FSU twice, to find your partner, is a recipe for disaster. I think you were very unlucky. (And, I really wish you all the best with your trip in a couple of weeks)

Many members have done the trip once and found their partner (hopefully lifelong partner). Many more have done the trip twice and found success.

The very nature of looking for a partner, so far away, means you have to take a bit of a chance.

I proposed to my fiance four weeks after my first trip, which was four months after my first letter to her. It hasn't been plain sailing. But is this bad? If I suggested that, someone try it, is that "very bad advice"? Or is that just someones personal opinion?

Look at this post and judge:
http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...28&postcount=64


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Yes I agree Vic, people go once and live happily ever after. I just had bad luck for sure but illness is what really messed us up.

I'll be in Moldova in 2 weeks for my next adventure. She and I have not had 1 disagreement on anything. I can attribute this to her speaking and understanding English very well. I didn't realize the magnitude of a handicap the language barrier can be. I told this new girl about my ex because I wanted to be honest. She is really jealous of her and is afraid she will visit me and take me away from her, I think she arrived in the US yesterday. I know this is her way of saying she is attracted to me and is "protecting her property"! She also said she will take good care of me, like a baby. Another good sign.

We will be together for many hours everyday and all day together for a week when we are in Kiev. I will be with her for 16 days all together. If we get along, I will submit the paperwork for a fiancee visa. If there is any sign for concern, I will plan another trip to see her.


Posted by: I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingToRussia
I was just pointing out that it is possible to go once and submit the paper work. It will take at least 7 months so you have that time to get to know each other better and see each other at least 1 more time and maybe twice.Cheers Mate!


GTR: The issue I have here is that it appears you are suggesting that it is possible to shorten the time frame by crossing a few things over. Yes it is, but that in and of itself I have a problem with.

Suggesting this to freshmen is giving them IMO the wrong clues in the first place. I see time and again that many who don't really have the money/time/resources to go the distance look for stategies to shorten the whole process and thus cost themselves less. That is fraught with hazzards and this is high enough risk without adding fuel to the fire.

I frankly wouldn't be holding up those who have had one or two trips and done the K-1 or SC 300 thing as good examples to the freshmen. Let these guys check back in 5 years with their success story and then it WILL be a good example to follow. I'm betting a goodly number of them won't be checking back in with a success story.


Posted by: cedarwind

It must also be considered there are members of the forum that can not for various reasons make multiple trips.

As for me it is not so much the cost but that I get only 4 week of vacation a year but do to rules I can only take 14 days at any one time and only 1 time each year….the other days are for use at holidays or when the Shipyard closes for 1 week at Christmas.

So it gives me a dilemma do I propose on the first trip or do I try and hope that it will be possible for me to go back again in 6 - 12 months and she will wait for me. I would love to make many trips but my employer will not give me the time off.

Now I am writing a wonderful women from Belarus…..She is very similar to the first girl who I thought I may marry but in someway better as she is a bit more mature and has a large family who has no interest in leaving Belarus but is supportive of her wishes.

So what is to be done….My vacation is in October and there is no way of changing it……I have told her this and she tells me that it is fine that she likes to take things slow and think about them.

SO do I go and see her in October for 2 weeks and propose then OR do I go back home and then during our holiday closer of 1 week in December / January go back and propose. (all is hypothetical October is a LONG ways off).

If I wait until December then I will not get to see her again until she arrives in the US. If I do so in October it may be to soon……MMMMM I really need a new job!


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Don't worry about the future now. Concentrate on the fact you will meet someone you are attracted to and vice versa. Let nature take it's course. You are a religious man and I'm sure you will be shown the next step to take in this relationship after you meet in October.

Good luck.


Posted by: I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingToRussia
I will be with her for 16 days all together. If we get along, I will submit the paperwork for a fiancee visa. If there is any sign for concern, I will plan another trip to see her.


GTR: I've got a really good mate here and he is pretty frank with me. I said something remotely similar to that a few years ago and his response was "Mate you need flogging with your c__k if you are seriously thinking that".

Just thought in view of your last experience, I would share that with you because I sincerely hope you have due success, but with a predetermined plan such as that I have severe reservations.


Posted by: GoingToRussia

Thanks for your concern I/O but I'll be okay. I won't rush into anything if it doesn't feel right. My 2 relationships are like night and day. The first wanted to marry me 2 months into our relationship and we hadn't even met. In this relationship we haven't even discussed love, marriage, or sex. The new relationship has spoken about her friends and family. The first relationship I met none of her friends or family. All for the better I think.

Like I said, thanks for the concern but if I get burned again it is my fault and I will say I should have listened to you.

Cheers mate!


Posted by: Turboguy

Vic, I have to agree with you. The faster you rush into this the more there is a chance for a mistake. I just had an e-mail from a friend. He had met a gal he really liked on one trip. They went to Egypt together and it turned into a big disaser. They were fighting constantly.

I had much the same happen to me with my first fiancee. I made one trip. She was the most wonderful woman in the world in my eyes. My plans were to make a second trip and then do a K-1. She said, why wait, so I didn't 6 weeks after my first trip I went back for two weeks. It was a totally different girl. She was complaining about everything. I was trying to get a photo and I motioned her to move a little with my hand. That was "calling her like a dog" to her. There was 3 feet of snow on the ground and she *****ed because I wore sneakers and jeans. Towards the end she reverted to the girl I first met. I made two trips back which were very mixed. When she got here the complaining went on. We got salads for lunch once and I asked her if she wanted the tomatoes from my salad (she loved them, I don't). She said I was trying to give her my garbage and she was never so humiliated in her life. 89 days after she arrived she returned to Russia. Three days after she got back she wrote that she had made the biggest mistake in her life and that her keyboard was covered in tears. You can't really know someone in one trip. Mistakes can be big ones. Don't rush.


Posted by: I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by vic2012
GTR, I dont believe, for one moment, that, only going to FSU twice, to find your partner, is a recipe for disaster. I think you were very unlucky. (And, I really wish you all the best with your trip in a couple of weeks)

Many members have done the trip once and found their partner (hopefully lifelong partner). Many more have done the trip twice and found success.

The very nature of looking for a partner, so far away, means you have to take a bit of a chance.

I proposed to my fiance four weeks after my first trip, which was four months after my first letter to her. It hasn't been plain sailing. But is this bad? If I suggested that, someone try it, is that "very bad advice"? Or is that just someones personal opinion?


Vic: As you are aware, I think it IS very bad advice and my reasons are simple. Freshmen do all too often take opinions as advices. When one looks at the limited information that is available, and I am quick to acknowledge that hard data is not freely available, there is enough case examples around these boards, one can quickly see a corrolation between the higher numbers of failures based on 1 or 2 trip decisions than among those who are prepared to take more time. YES, I do think that balance should be put up there in front of the freshmen from the get go.

I've spent a lot of time encouraging enquirers about this caper. I enjoy seeing the smarter ones succeed. I disagree about the luck factor. Smart people very often get lucky. Rushing this process isn't too smart.

Henry Ford: Luck comes when experience/knowledge readies us for opportunity. In other words, it ain't luck, but smart play that wins the prize.

You are quite correct when you say one must take a bit of a chance in this to hopefully succeed. 2 points I would like to draw out of that.

1) The chances/risks are EXTREMELY high in this pursuit. When one has ample opportunity to reduce those risks, isn't it plain good sense to do just that, reduce the risks. (I say good sense, not common sense because if it was so common many would have it and the don't)

2) Hopefully? Why not "scopefully"? We do have choices. Most successful people in any pursuit (And there is many here with success in various fields) succeed on scope not hope. We have the scope to take the extra trip, we have the scope to meet on her home turf, we have the scope to include a whole host of risk mittigation factors and it is plain crazy not to do so.

The part which staggers me continually is this. All the risks that many of the "One trip wonders" deliberately take, they would NEVER do if the girl was living in their own country. They don't seem to understand that those exact risks, which they would never take at home, are increased 10 fold and then some because of language, cultural and other differences. Why do they throw all their normal practices out the window just because she comes from Russia or wherever. Forrest Gump got it right when he said, "Stupid is as stupid does".

To my mind they are pretty much lost in the hype propogated from the mouths of those with a pecuniary interest, IE agents and so forth. They become dead men walking before they even start because they don't have the time/money/motivation/patience or perhaps even personal integrity to plan for the long haul. Marriage, which seems to be the ultimate goal of most, as it should be, is a long haul process. One would hope, a whole of life process.

Heres a couple of thoughts which I know are very controversial, but IMO should be taken account of by those in the start out phase.

1) People with limited time resources should reconsider this idea.
2) People with limited financial capacity should get very smart or get out.
3) This is not for inexperienced daters.
4) Foriegn marriages are NOT the right of everyone.
5) Much time is NEVER too much time.

Food for thought. It is not my opinion or anyone elses that should be adopted by any particular individual. It is the WILLINGNESS TO THINK LOGICALLY that should be adopted by all. The trick is getting motivated or motivating one or self to actually THINK.

Wouldn't it be much nicer to come to thease boards only to share in the success of others than as we do at times, have to stand by and support someone when they are hurting beyond belief?

I ain't all nice, but I ain't all bad.

FWIW


Posted by: ira156

A lot of what you say here I/O is spot on. firstly people need to realise that its not like dating a women from around the corner. That there is a lot of expense involved...and for some time. And that they also have to make a lot of personal changes themselves ( unless they had vast experience in the FSU before they even started down this path).

But the time thing is relevent to the indivdual...and im not saying 1 trip get married...or propose marriage before you meet ect.

Some have success stories after 2 meetings and have now been happily married for quite a while...others went the longer road only to fail. The problem arises from us all being individuals and our feelings beliefs ect have been formed from our individual experiences. We have different standards regarding trust...commitment ect ect.

This is just an example..but lets say you have been corresponding with your lady for 2 years ...have made 4 trips and finally start down the road of marriage. Someone gets on and says NO...you need 3 years and 6 trips or your moving too fast....just as the opposite of someone who had 1 trip got married within 12 months and have been happy for the last 5 years says thats the magic formular.....neither is a concrete guidline. And just as we are individuals....so are the women we love....with their own percption of a correct time frame...for them.

You are spot on when you say ALL of us need to THINK......trouble is when it comes to love there is also a lot of emotion involved.

For me to say i think i trust her...is not as sure as i feel i trust her. My Nat says she feels safe with me...she feels she trusts me ect ect ect.

For some those feeelings come in 12 months for some its longer.But yes ALL need to have a good think before they start to feel.


Posted by: I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
You are spot on when you say ALL of us need to THINK......trouble is when it comes to love there is also a lot of emotion involved.
But yes ALL need to have a good think before they start to feel.


Ira: Some get it and some don't. My one and only motivation for posting on these boards is to provoke people to THINK. Thoughtless actions have been the thing which has destroyed much of the credability of this entire pursuit, both by promoters and participents.

What people ultimately think is their own business and decision. I cop a bit of flack for stirring people to think but I have noticed that in the process of firing off a bit of flack in my direction, they are thinking and I am well satisfied with that result. Interesting thing is that very often the ones who fire the most flack are often the ones struggling the most with this whole thing.

PS Added later. (sign of early dimenture) Time: No hard and fast rules, but I continue to say, "Much time is never TOO much time".


Posted by: inlove

Greg,
Welcome to PRM. Everyody here has offered a lot of opinions on your situation, and as long as you remember that those are indeed opinions, and not necessarily facts, you should be able to take some of them in consideration. Before I offer my opinion, here are some real facts:

1. If she gets any other US visa besides the fiance one, and arrives here, you CAN marry her, and she does not need to leave the country and wait for K1 someplace else. She can stay in the US and go through the Adjustment of Status process while in the US.

2. Many unmarried russian women CAN and DO get visitor's visas to the US. The likelyhood of somebody getting a visa often depends on the individual circumstances as well as the consulate official's mood at any particular day. There is never a sure way to tell who will and who will not get this visa.

3. While some russian women indeed cannot afford to travel, many can. A woman who lives in Russia (not Uzbekistan, or someplace else in the FSU where standards of living much lower than they are in Russia) and holds a good job can afford to take an overseas vacation, and many even go few times in year. Greece is one of the popular destinations.

Now, back to the opinions.
By meeting her in Greece you are not going to spend any more money as you would y meeting her in Tomsk. Airfare to Greece most likely is going to be much cheaper for you, and lodging is going to be about the same. You will have, though, warn her in advance that you are not going to cover her airfare , and if she, indeed, wants to meet you in Greece, she has to pay for her trip herself.

Even if you do meet in Greece first, plan on visiting her in Tomsk sometime anyway before your marriage plans solidify. You should see for yourself what her life and charater is like not just on vacation, but in rutine situations. Plus, you need eventually meet her family.

After the first meeting both of you, or one of you might decide that you are not good for each other. Be prepared that it might happen, and don't blame the woman if she decides to break the relationship. She has a right to do it, even if you cover some of her trip related expences.

Don't get into this game if you cannot resonably afford it. There is no guarantee at the end that everything is going to work out. Even if you find somebody who seems to be perfect for you, and you get married, there is still 50% chance of divorce down the road. So ultimately, you might never get your money back, so to speak.

Good luck with everything.


Posted by: Turboguy

I/O, I have to agree with everything you said and I think your tone was such that people will listen to you and take your advice seriously. I do think that there are no rules that followed insure success and disregarded insure failure. Someone can be a one week wonder and have success or make trip after trip and fail. Still I think someone who makes one trip and after a few days proposes and starts a K-1 and never goes back is taking a bigger risk than they should. You are right on I/O

InLove, If he is paying the airfare it will likely run much more to meet in Greece than going there. I have met with my fiancee in Egypt and Thailand in the last few months. Thailand, my airfare was $ 880 and hers was $ 1370 for a flight half as far and half as long. Egypt was also more for her than for me. I don't recall the exact amounts but it was much higher for her.

I still think the cost is not the biggest reason to avoid a first meeting in a vacation setting. I think it raises the risk in a lot of different ways.


Posted by: I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboguy
I/O, I have to agree with everything you said and I think your tone was such that people will listen to you


Turbo, there is certain horses for certain courses. Some need a velvet glove and some need the iron hand.

BTW, YOU don't HAVE to agree with anything I say, you are starting to sound like it is a real effort.

I ain't all nice, but I ain't all bad.


Posted by: antoshka

russian women are excactly the same as western women..........they all have the same materialistic views about love, life, money, etc etc......
the only difference is that they have a russian accent.

if you are an average joe on an average wage and you're thinking you will go to russia and find a nice beautiful woman with old fashioned values then you're kidding yourself i'm afraid!!

yes they are very beautiful and can be very loving sometimes, but they also have very modern views and have their own ideas how sh*t should go down in your lives together.

so average joe's, don't waste money that you haven't really got.
this is a very expensive and emotional exercise thats not for the faint hearted.


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedarwind
If I wait until December then I will not get to see her again until she arrives in the US. If I do so in October it may be to soon……MMMMM I really need a new job!


yes, this was what i was touching on, that to create a genuine relationship with someone that is from overseas means finance and lifestyle need to be looked at whether present situation can really allow it to work for all concerned.

Anything like working for an employer that restricts time or travel arrangments to develop a relationship further needs to be looked at to decide where our priorities are. Relationships no 1 or career/work no 1 or same with working for yourself, if you are a slave to your business and it does not give you the unrestricted lifestyle what is the point of having a business in the first place and finding a way where you are not compromising yourself in some area of life that is important to you. You've really got to decide how you are going to go about it too see if it is all fitting your life like jigsaw puzzle pieces. If you've got no picture to the puzzle then, well, that is for everyone to decide for themself... there is no right way, there is just the best way for each person


Posted by: Turboguy

I/O, If I agree with you it is no effort to say so. That was a good post and right on. If I disagree with you I have no problem saying so and that is not an effort either. I don't usually disagree with you because you are a very logical thinker and have enough experience to know what you are talking about. Still we deal in opinions here and not facts or iron clad rules for which there are no exceptions.

Sometimes I both agree and disagree like Antosha's post. I agree that it is not a thing for an average Joe but I have seen some do just fine. I think there are more factors involved that if you are just average.


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoshka
russian women are excactly the same as western women..........they all have the same materialistic views about love, life, money, etc etc......
the only difference is that they have a russian accent.


this is an area that i find concerning when i read this forum in general. I always wonder why each person is corresponding with a lady from overseas. Is it for reasons based on feeling good about life in general and when they are i think cool! this sounds promising. But when they seem to be based on reasons of feeling bad about past relationships and deciding a women overseas is their way to *solve* something my red flags as a human being goes up for all concerned in that endeavour. But in general i think if people saw women as women first and not categorized them by their nation they'd have a healthier out look on life in general. For the most part i found in my own trip and correspondences the basic female traits are the same. The qualities and looks i find attractive draw me in and the things that can get on my nerves as a male would push me away. No difference to back home. In fact the first time in correspondence i got a bit dissapointed with some aspect was the same as a long time girlfriend i had here. I had this dejavu feeling and figured females are pretty much the same everywhere. They are all generally so fixated on marriage and weddings they forget relationships come first and are a lifetime thing. Most of them are so caught up on the fairytale vision of getting married and living happily ever after they overlook the simple things that make a relationship work in the long term. In that sense i think women are much the same in western culture and russian culture. Once they start really liking you and trusting you they tend to be skipping straight to wedding day visions and being their husband, cooking for you etc etc. and assuming you got the same type of obsessed picture in your head. It is both amusing and frustrating at the same time. Women! can't live with them, can't live without them


Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:
Originally Posted by inlove
Now, back to the opinions.
By meeting her in Greece you are not going to spend any more money as you would y meeting her in Tomsk. Airfare to Greece most likely is going to be much cheaper for you, and lodging is going to be about the same. You will have, though, warn her in advance that you are not going to cover her airfare , and if she, indeed, wants to meet you in Greece, she has to pay for her trip herself.


Inlove,Of course I am assuming that he would be covering all the expenses of the trip.I am curious what % of Russian Ladies pursuing a man from another country can afford to take themself and ther daughter on a trip to a touristy part of Greece? I personally believe the percentage is probably very low...say less than 2%.

Now...if he is covering the cost of the trip I believe he can probably travel to see her 3 times for the cost of 1 trip!(Or dang near!) I have not checked on the cost of tickets...but I would wager 3 RT tickets for himself to her hometown are less than the 3 RT he would have to buy for the 3 of them to travel to Greece.

How much difference do you thing the cost of an apartment in her hometown vs. the cost of 2 hotelrooms in touristy greece would be? I would say much more than 3 times!

Now the clincher! Eating! If they travel to Greece they are bound to eating basically everything in restaurants! Obviously this would vary greatly and depend on how much eating out they would do in her hometown. I would guestimate Greece would be 2-10 times more expensive! 2 if they eat out all the time and 10 if they don't eat out at all in her hometown!

Anybody good at trip planning feel like crunching some numbers??? I wager I am pretty close!

LOL! I just thought about this! On the lighter side...Inlove, are you trying to get Greg branded as being "greedy" right off the get go???


Posted by: Spakoyna

As to the comments about RW being the same materialistically(new word?) as AW I would say this: most of the RW I have met since I married are worse. "Keeping up with the Jones" is very high on their list! My wife is so tired of this. Almost all the RW she has met here are always trying to make sure they are better than the others. They are constantly flaunting the material aspects of their new lives!


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
As to the comments about RW being the same materialistically(new word?) as AW I would say this: most of the RW I have met since I married are worse.


I'm not sure what Anto meant exactly. I suspect he was not meaning it as neccessarily a good or bad thing but that women from both cultures take as much interest in trinkets , ornaments, looks etc. and like most people would love to live life in as much comfort as possible. We live in a physical world so there is nothing wrong with taking a keen interest in material things. Hopefully for any person, whether male or female it is not the most important thing in life. I hope all people feel or realise relationship are most important. Most people do want to live with a nice home and comfort though. If a women feels that ain't going to be the case with you or unsure, like in the jungle a female will test a male out

he he, i bet Anto has been tested out and i suspect coming through with some scars and just giving a subtle hint


Posted by: Turboguy

Crunching the numbers is not easy to do. There are too many variables. I have one friend who met a RW in a resort setting, paid all her expenses and all she did was complain that they were only staying in a 4 star hotel and there was a 5 star hotel they could have stayed in.

I took a gal out to Dinner in Moscow who complined to me becuase I ordered the new wine for $ 100.00 a bottle when I could have ordered the old wine for $ 400.00 a bottle.

My fiancee is happy with anything clean and presentable as far as hotels and we like to eat at buffets the best. You need to know more about what the gal is going to be happy with before you crunch numbers.

The same applies to men. I have one friend who wished he could afford to go more often but looses his self esteem if he must travel coach. He would rather pay tripplie so he can feel self confidence. I spend hours hunting for the aboslute lowest fare and will ride in the baggage compartment if it will save me a few bucks. I will even stoop lower than baggage. I am flying Aeroflot on Wednesday that is worse than flying in the bagage compartment of a real airline.


Posted by: sidney

Yes turbo it doesn't take long to see high maintenence, sometimes on the first date. Not something I would feel comfortable living with daily.
Sid


Posted by: GregKTM300

Well, you folks are true to your words. I have found a variety of opinions and advice in the past few days since initially posting this. First, let me express my appreciation for your time and thoughtful (and thought provoking) posts. I appreciate your candor. The main things I came away with are:

1. The first visit needs to be in her home town or at least country. I agree with this and will press for this to happen. I want her to feel comfortable when we first meet and I think that will happen in Tomsk or at least Russia. Plus I will meet her in her environment and where she feels most comfortable so I'll be able to get to know the real Elena more.

2. The dating process can't or shouldn't be rushed or corners cut and maybe i was trying to cut some. It will likely take more than one trip to Russia, two seems almost to be the minimum, and it's likely going to take longer than I may want. I understand this now and I'm fine with it. In my previous relationships it has taken time to fall in love and there is no reason why this should be any different. We are all individuals and do things a little different and each relationship is different and will have its own twists, turns, and time table.

3. I still need to be cautious (which I already knew) but thanks for the reminder.

I'm committed to seeing this through however it works out and however long it takes but you all have given me some things to think about. I truly believe Elena is a good woman and I'm not going to let time or distance keep us apart if she does turn out to be the one for me (I hope she is ). Thanks again and I look forward to more chats in the future. I'll keep you posted.

Greg


Posted by: Chrismc

You look to have things sorted now Greg...good luck with your lady and if you follow the advice here and what you have posted above you shouldn't go far wrong.


Posted by: I/O

Greg: Some "Get it" and some don't.

All the best.


Posted by: Jerico

Quote:
I took a gal out to Dinner in Moscow who complined to me because I ordered the new wine for $ 100.00 a bottle when I could have ordered the old wine for $ 400.00 a bottle.


If your dealing with these kind of women you are destined for trouble IMHO.
I would of got up and left her cold and moved on. Who the F**K did she think she was? Amazing
That kind of money you could of had a beautiful woman meet you in your room and give you anything you want. you could pick her out online and schedule a time for her to "MEET" .LOL
As long as you dont get any extra baggage!!!
Not that I ever did this but i wouldn`t hold it against anyone



Quote:
Now the clincher! Eating! If they travel to Greece they are bound to eating basically everything in restaurants! Obviously this would vary greatly and depend on how much eating out they would do in her hometown. I would guestimate Greece would be 2-10 times more expensive! 2 if they eat out all the time and 10 if they don't eat out at all in her hometown!


Well I think if a guy has to worry about paying in restaurants or hotel rooms and such he probably has no business looking for a woman this way.
This is an expensive process , we all know this and its not for everybody.
Hey i look for the best bargain like anybody else but jeez , buying food and cooking may work for some here but not for me.
I treated it like a vacation and I looked forward to going to different restaurants for food as well as the many cheap cafes all over the place.
I was eating in nice cafes for like 10 bucks. Thats nothing. The underground mall in Moscow I was eating pizza and beer for like 4 dollars, Hehhe, cheap.
You dont have to always go high dollar to have a good meal.

To me this is like going to Hawaii and cooking all my meals to save a nickel.
Its not happening. I wouldn`t do it there and i would not do it in Russia.
Now its one thing to buy snacks and stuff. Of course i did that.
Anyway just my opinion is all.
Jerry


Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Well I think if a guy has to worry about paying in restaurants or hotel rooms and such he probably has no business looking for a woman this way.
This is an expensive process , we all know this and its not for everybody.
Hey i look for the best bargain like anybody else but jeez , buying food and cooking may work for some here but not for me.
I treated it like a vacation and I looked forward to going to different restaurants for food as well as the many cheap cafes all over the place.
I was eating in nice cafes for like 10 bucks. Thats nothing. The underground mall in Moscow I was eating pizza and beer for like 4 dollars, Hehhe, cheap.
You dont have to always go high dollar to have a good meal.

To me this is like going to Hawaii and cooking all my meals to save a nickel.
Its not happening. I wouldn`t do it there and i would not do it in Russia.
Now its one thing to buy snacks and stuff. Of course i did that.
Anyway just my opinion is all.
Jerry


Well! I guess it depends on how serioius you were about knowing how you and your wife would be together! I spent 4+1/2 months in Russia with my wife! We lived together the majority of the time as we do here...well sortta! We even had a ramstore card from 1 month we spent together in Moscow!

The point I was making...especially in Greg's case was it can be done for less than 10K or the sky is the moon!


Posted by: Jerico

Quote:
Well! I guess it depends on how serioius you were about knowing how you and your wife would be together! I spent 4+1/2 months in Russia with my wife! We lived together the majority of the time as we do here...well sortta! We even had a ramstore card from 1 month we spent together in Moscow!


Well OK Spakoyna
Hehe 4 months is a long time and sure then cooking your own food is wise I guess. Living in hotels would brake my wallet that is for sure , Hehe.

I was talking about the average 2 week trip .


I would still recommend the first timer that goes to Russia stays in hotels unless he REALLY knows the language. Ya they cost more but I remember my first trip when i got off the plane and thought WTF am I doing? Hehe
It was the safe bet for the rookie.
Jerry


Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerico
Well OK Spakoyna
Hehe 4 months is a long time and sure then cooking your own food is wise I guess. Living in hotels would brake my wallet that is for sure , Hehe.

I was talking about the average 2 week trip .


I would still recommend the first timer that goes to Russia stays in hotels unless he REALLY knows the language. Ya they cost more but I remember my first trip when i got off the plane and thought WTF am I doing? Hehe
It was the safe bet for the rookie.
Jerry


I did the hotel thing on my 1st trip. After that the brain was in the mode of how can I spend the most time with my darling! When I stayed with her for a month at her apartment the most expensive part of the trip was the airfare! We did luck up on a nice apartment when we stayed in Moscow for a month...$40 a night in a nice location! I know it is more now! We rented a nice apartment in Novosibirsk basically in the center for $23 a night! I suppose the costs have gone up quite a bit! We haven't been to Russia since July 2004.


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
I did the hotel thing on my 1st trip. After that the brain was in the mode of how can I spend the most time with my darling! When I stayed with her for a month at her apartment the most expensive part of the trip was the airfare! We did luck up on a nice apartment when we stayed in Moscow for a month...$40 a night in a nice location! I know it is more now! We rented a nice apartment in Novosibirsk basically in the center for $23 a night! I suppose the costs have gone up quite a bit! We haven't been to Russia since July 2004.

I basicly did the same Spak.The first trip was all restraunts and cafes...i will say that Nat didnt care if the wine was $10 or $150 which i did buy once. The second trip however was living together for a month and she actually got a bit p!issed off at me for not letting her cook "ALL" the time. The restaunts were mainly for special occations. She did however love it when i cooked. Moscow Appartments are now Very expensive. Its funny i was reading a post from 2004 where one member said that Moscow appartments were as expensive as Manhatten....only to be told by another member that he had to be crazy. A luxury Appt in Moscow is now up to 30,000 US per square meter...thats over $3,000 per sqr.foot for the Americans......how times change.


Posted by: inlove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
Inlove,Of course I am assuming that he would be covering all the expenses of the trip.I am curious what % of Russian Ladies pursuing a man from another country can afford to take themself and ther daughter on a trip to a touristy part of Greece? I personally believe the percentage is probably very low...say less than 2%.


It is a big misconseption that Russian ladies in correspondence with a foreign men are all poor and destitute. In fact, many of them can afford a pretty nice lifestyle in Russia, maybe even better one that some of their prospective boyfriends can afford in their own country. I, obviously, don't know what the situation of the woman in question is, and without reliable info it is everyody's speculation.

Quote:
Now...if he is covering the cost of the trip I believe he can probably travel to see her 3 times for the cost of 1 trip!(Or dang near!) I have not checked on the cost of tickets...but I would wager 3 RT tickets for himself to her hometown are less than the 3 RT he would have to buy for the 3 of them to travel to Greece.

How much difference do you thing the cost of an apartment in her hometown vs. the cost of 2 hotelrooms in touristy greece would be? I would say much more than 3 times!


Of course, if he is paying for their airfare and lodging, then it is much more expensive. If he is paying for himself only, it is going to be cheaper than traveling to Siberia.

[QUOTE]Now the clincher! Eating! If they travel to Greece they are bound to eating basically everything in restaurants! Obviously this would vary greatly and depend on how much eating out they would do in her hometown. I would guestimate Greece would be 2-10 times more expensive! 2 if they eat out all the time and 10 if they don't eat out at all in her hometown![/QOUTE]

Actually, Greece is a very affordable country. One, of course, can always find some very expensive places to eat, especially he/she does not worry about spending money and does not want go to less expensive, but presentable places.


Posted by: Spakoyna

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
I basicly did the same Spak.The first trip was all restraunts and cafes...i will say that Nat didnt care if the wine was $10 or $150 which i did buy once. The second trip however was living together for a month and she actually got a bit p!issed off at me for not letting her cook "ALL" the time. The restaunts were mainly for special occations. She did however love it when i cooked. Moscow Appartments are now Very expensive. Its funny i was reading a post from 2004 where one member said that Moscow appartments were as expensive as Manhatten....only to be told by another member that he had to be crazy. A luxury Appt in Moscow is now up to 30,000 US per square meter...thats over $3,000 per sqr.foot for the Americans......how times change.


IRA! You should've seen the 1st time I tried to cook for my wife! Winter in Siberia...no ventilation except for windows! I was broiling some steaks! Couldn't keep her out of my way! Well...yeap... the steaks started burning! Smoke,Smoke,Smoke and no where for it to go! LOL....took awhile before I could get her to let me cook again...however she did go for my scrambled eggs in the morning! I was always up a couple hours before her so i had free run of the kitchen!


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spakoyna
IRA! You should've seen the 1st time I tried to cook for my wife! Winter in Siberia...no ventilation except for windows! I was broiling some steaks! Couldn't keep her out of my way! Well...yeap... the steaks started burning! Smoke,Smoke,Smoke and no where for it to go! LOL....took awhile before I could get her to let me cook again...however she did go for my scrambled eggs in the morning! I was always up a couple hours before her so i had free run of the kitchen!

Mate it was funny. I have cooked since i was about 9 yrs old. I cooked when i was married. One thing about Aussie cooking is we have adapted bits from so many cultures here now ...asian italian..greek ect ect. Its very common to just throw something together. I found Nat to be a great cook....but i think Russians in general often cook by a strict rescipie.

One day Nat asked me to cook something so i hit the fridge and grabbed whatever was in there and threw it together as a stirfry. First time ive ever used spicy sausage in a stirfry....but hey it was really good. Nat was truly amazed and thinks im a chef now....i had to laugh. It wasnt because it tasted good it was because i just grabbed what was there and threw it together without a recipie.


Posted by: I/O

Two things I have learned over the last few years, never get between a hen and her chicks and never get between a Russian woman and her kitchen.


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by I/O
Two things I have learned over the last few years, never get between a hen and her chicks and never get between a Russian woman and her kitchen.

Just learn to cook and you wont have a problem. Nat loves it when i cook for her.......but your right once its her turn im only allowed to watch from the sidelines.


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Mate it was funny. I have cooked since i was about 9 yrs old. I cooked when i was married. One thing about Aussie cooking is we have adapted bits from so many cultures here now ...asian italian..greek ect ect. Its very common to just throw something together. I found Nat to be a great cook....but i think Russians in general often cook by a strict rescipie.

One day Nat asked me to cook something so i hit the fridge and grabbed whatever was in there and threw it together as a stirfry. First time ive ever used spicy sausage in a stirfry....but hey it was really good. Nat was truly amazed and thinks im a chef now....i had to laugh. It wasnt because it tasted good it was because i just grabbed what was there and threw it together without a recipie.


Similar things have happend to me Ian......but once you can prove to them you can cook you don't have a problem. They are so used to men in their country not being able to cook or just being lazy about household things they take it for granted Western men cannot cook either. However, I agree, they can get very protective of their kitchens


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
Similar things have happend to me Ian......but once you can prove to them you can cook you don't have a problem. They are so used to men in their country not being able to cook or just being lazy about household things they take it for granted Western men cannot cook either. However, I agree, they can get very protective of their kitchens

Mate i even got to cook for her Mum. It was funny as i offered to help them prepare for the welcoming"DINNER". Mum was amazed i could peel and cut vegetables. The Next day i cooked for them and even got asked for the recipy by Mum.


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by ira156
Mate i even got to cook for her Mum. It was funny as i offered to help them prepare for the welcoming"DINNER". Mum was amazed i could peel and cut vegetables. The Next day i cooked for them and even got asked for the recipy by Mum.


a real honour cooking for the mother! It is funny they are so surprised that a man can cook and prepare meals and vegetables isn't it it is so natural or normal for many of us from the West.


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
It is funny they are so surprised that a man can cook and prepare meals and vegetables isn't it it is so natural or normal for many of us from the West.


NO!!!!


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
S However, I agree, they can get very protective of their kitchens



I suspect that is easily solved for you guys.

Just let them know it is *your* kichen or at the very least *our* kitchen


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by nocomfortzone
NO!!!!


You mean you can't cook NCZ? it is not hard


Posted by: I/O

NCZ: You are well along in this process, but I see you still have a few serious shocks coming to you in the future. Get this very very clear. It is HER kitchen period.

Yes she will be more than happy to step out from time to time whilst you do the honors but it will always be HER kitchen. Mine reckons I'm a better cook than she is, which is BS but she enjoys to eat whatever I cook. However when push comes to shove it is HER kitchen and will never be OURS, never.

The day will come when for whatever reason, when you least expect it, you will be fired out of the kitchen like a cork from a bottle and wonder WTF happened.


Posted by: ira156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
a real honour cooking for the mother! It is funny they are so surprised that a man can cook and prepare meals and vegetables isn't it it is so natural or normal for many of us from the West.

In a way i had no choice Chris...Mum WILL NOT EAT OUT. I wanted to take her out for dinner but she wouldnt have a bar of it ...so i said ok you will have to endure my cooking. Both she and Nat wanted the recipie ...passed down from one of my Italian mates Mums.


Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by I/O
NCZ: You are well along in this process, but I see you still have a few serious shocks coming to you in the future. Get this very very clear. It is HER kitchen period.

Yes she will be more than happy to step out from time to time whilst you do the honors but it will always be HER kitchen. Mine reckons I'm a better cook than she is, which is BS but she enjoys to eat whatever I cook. However when push comes to shove it is HER kitchen and will never be OURS, never.

The day will come when for whatever reason, when you least expect it, you will be fired out of the kitchen like a cork from a bottle and wonder WTF happened.


yes they are not backwards in coming forwards when they want you to know they are in charge a bit of a scrum down can suddenly errupt from nowhere like a veritable Vesuvious.


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
You mean you can't cook NCZ? it is not hard


he he, no i can't, i'm sure i could learn but there is no great desire there and i don't eat a lot anyway.

I can put bread in the toaster :-) and put the kettle on

Does that count? :-)


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by I/O
NCZ: You are well along in this process,


I'm curious what process you think i'm well along in :-)
For the record ,i'm not interested in some overseas bride that seems to me the main theme in this forum but i'm stiill very interested in learning about the differences in cultures and the various things that come up about relationships as my mind is stil very curious about many aspects that occur to me from time to time in the one girl i did corresond with a meet in Ukraine.
I learnt a lot more in hindsight from this forum than i could of understood at the time.

Quote:
but I see you still have a few serious shocks coming to you in the future. Get this very very clear. It is HER kitchen period.


he he, i discussed a zillon things with Natasha and once i got to know her and care for her i did explore her interest in seeing what potential we had for a relationship. She was very keen to know my ideas on domestics matters and i let her know if we did ever hook up she'd have free reign of a kitchen anyway :-) no issue, i can't cook like you skillful guys and i know i can't decorate a home so the female domestic touch would have never bothered me in those areas

Quote:
Yes she will be more than happy to step out from time to time whilst you do the honors but it will always be HER kitchen. Mine reckons I'm a better cook than she is, which is BS but she enjoys to eat whatever I cook. However when push comes to shove it is HER kitchen and will never be OURS, never.


he he, you banana benders, bend pretty easily. Where is your backbone ? :-)

Quote:
The day will come when for whatever reason, when you least expect it, you will be fired out of the kitchen like a cork from a bottle and wonder WTF happened.


don't worry, i already had that expierence growing up with my Mum and older sisters

It was funny listening to my brother in law telling me when i was a little kid
and he was visiting having meals with us, that i used to say some unappreciative things about my Mum's cooking and he reckons i needed a good clip over the ears but my Mum was a gentle soul so on that front i got away with it. I don't remember it but my brother in law was telling about a month ago when i was over at his and my sisters house having a meal




Posted by: I/O

NCZ: For the record, I am a born a bred "Sand Groper" who came to his senses. BTW my backbone gets massaged in all the right places when time together allows.

Meaning of "Well along in this Process", was referring to the leaning side.


Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:
Originally Posted by I/O
NCZ: For the record, I am a born a bred "Sand Groper" who came to his senses. BTW my backbone gets massaged in all the right places when time together allows.


oh, they are two very interesting parts of the world. Both Queensland and West Australia are regiosn of Australia i have not seen enough of. Particular that whole west coast. One day i hope to do it, driving all the way along the west coast like i've seen most of the east


Quote:
Meaning of "Well along in this Process", was referring to the leaning side.


well i'm not leaning but i am learning :-).

I hate to think how much more i understand now that i did not when i went to Ukraine. Not just about over there, but myself included. Plus i have to admit i read a lot here and my eyes roll at some of the stuff i read :-) and reasons people are interested in a women from overseas and i think i'm glad i don't think like many of the people and some of the crazy strife people get themselves into and extra difficulties that can be avoided in relationships with females in general whether they are from FSU or home.

One of the earliest things i read in here that made my eyes roll was some American guy complaining about some marriage he had with a women from FSU and how he did not liek her behaviours in his house and they were barely talking but in his own post he casually said " I married a stranger" doh!!!!!

crazy stuff, i can't believe people actually go through some process where they are essentially committing to life together and yet they don't even know the other person and they wonder why their marraige is breaking up just as quickly as the first got in contact with the "stranger".....




Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:
Originally Posted by nocomfortzone

I can put bread in the toaster :-) and put the kettle on

Does that count? :-)


Well thats a start and more than some I know can do!


Posted by: I/O

Quote:
Originally Posted by nocomfortzone
crazy stuff, i can't believe people actually go through some process where they are essentially committing to life together and yet they don't even know the other person and they wonder why their marraige is breaking up just as quickly as the first got in contact with the "stranger".....


Right on here brother...!!! Right on. But ya can't tell 'em and there ain't much point in tryin' (Though I do sometimes) and if you do tell 'em, they want it all wrapped up in candy so it doesn't sound too tough.

Kinda makes me smile sometimes, they want it all soft and nice with the whole mob cheerin' 'em on, but give 'em a few months together with a real Russian woman and when she gets in there face good and proper, they'll wish they'd listened.

Some of 'em just want bashin' for their stupidity. IMHO the real scam is that our countries give passports to idiots and other countries give 'em visas. I better shut up here before I get right on my soapbox.


Posted by: antoshka

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrismc
yes they are not backwards in coming forwards when they want you to know they