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What's the real deal on alcoholism?
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Posted by: Chemist

Several years ago (more like 10), I had come across statistics that depicted alcohol consumption rates of various different countries. This table is an example. It is pretty easy to notice that several western countries exceed Russia in alcohol consumption. Although the United States has a lower consumption rate than Russia, the difference isn't huge. In addition, I have my memories from college. Binge drinking was an extracurricular activity pursued in earnest. Every social function in college seemed to revolve around alcohol. So it seemed unfair to tag Russia with the reputation of alcoholics.

Now some articles are painting a grim future for Russia, and they attribute alcohol as the root cause. It appears to contrast with figures reporting economic growth in Russia. It appears that alcoholism in Russia is a health crisis reaching epidemic levels. In conjunction with a deteriorating health care system, they identify alcohol as the root cause of lower life expectancy and high mortality rate of Russian men (causes due to wars or Stalin's gulag aren't even mentioned). The rising crime rate and decreased productivity have also been attributed to alcoholism and one article suggests that Vodka and other spirits are now cheaper than food. You can read the articles here and here

With a negative population growth rate, Russia may eventually be too depopulated to raise it's standard of living or protect its borders. What is the typical Russian experiencing? Do you think things will get better or worse?

Posted by: Raspberry

What is surprising is how LOW Mexico is on the list....

But I also think that alcohol is not the only factor involved in the mortality rate of men. Pollution and handling of hazardous materials is also a major contributor to this.

Having just done annual recurrent training concerning the handling of hazardous materials, as mandated by my employer and the federal government, this brings to mind the "hazmat" issue.

Russia and other FSU countries do not have the safeguards we have in the west. Granted, China is far worse, but there is just not enough protection/precautions in the workplace.

In Mariupol, a city I have become familiar with, the city is centered around metals production. You use a lot of chemicals in processing these metals, and it shows in environment. And you can only imagine what it is like working around these substances on a daily basis. And I'm sure there are similar types of scenerios on other FSU cities.

So, it's not the drinking itself, but when you get someone in an industry that uses hazardous materials, this only compounds it. And add smoking on top of that too. Not only for their own personal health, but also makes the men's reproductive systems disfunctional, which is why the birth rate is down.

Posted by: Chemist

You are right raspberry,

I'm a chemist as well and have been through similar training, and I'm equally appalled at the lack of restrictions in other countries. A lot of hazerdous substances accumulate in the liver, and when the alcohol hits--BOOM!

I think the articles count "conditions aggravated by alcohol" as part of the problem as well, which would include all of those hazardous exposure issues. It would be interesting to see if implementing OSHA-type regs would improve mortality and birth rates. Curtailing alcohol production during the Gorbachev years had a positive effect but that reminds Americans too much of prohibition.

Posted by: Seaview

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So it seemed unfair to tag Russia with the reputation of alcoholics.

THe table shows clearly that Russia holds the first place in consuming the so-called spirits per person. In other words, no other country drinks so much strong and destructive alcohol - vodka and the like.

Quote:

With a negative population growth rate, Russia may eventually be too depopulated to raise it's standard of living or protect its borders. What is the typical Russian experiencing? Do you think things will get better or worse?

As a typical Russian I can say that things are not getting better and demographic situation is disastrous. THis year the government decided to give 250,000 roubles (around 5,000 GBP) to families and single mothers for the second child to stimulate birth rate. Well.. we shall see... how it is going to work ...

And it may sound surprising for you but Russia is the second country in the world (after the US) in number of immigrants. Ethnic Russians are not happy with that, but there are simply not enough of them in the country to work and pay taxes.

Chita (it's a town at the Far East ) local counsil website is available in two languages now - Russian and Chinese, and looks like it's only the start of the process.

Posted by: Chemist

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Good point about the spirits. It looks like Latvia is the only country that comes close to Russia in those terms.

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THis year the government decided to give 250,000 roubles (around 5,000 GBP) to families and single mothers for the second child to stimulate birth rate. Well.. we shall see... how it is going to work ...

How much would it cost to raise a second child in Russia? Would it exceed 250,000 roubles? In the United States we can take tax deductions based on the number of children to reduce a family's tax liability. Very few of us would consider it an incentive to have more children since it costs much more to support them than any tax break given to us.

And having a second child would barely reach the "break even point" in terms of population growth. Does Russia give incentives for a third child? The US averages 2 children per family and we barely have population growth over 0 (+0.9). Plus, our population is getting older which will mean our mortality rate will steadily increase in the future while our birthrate remains low.

So would Russia's economic incentive be worth it to have more children?

Posted by: Eryk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist

Several years ago (more like 10), I had come across statistics that depicted alcohol consumption rates of various different countries.

Before one considers synergistic effects from other pollutants (and I am sure all the comments regarding that are quite correct also), one first has to take into account that the alcohol itself may be contaminated:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6157015.stm

...if you are losing 40,000 people a year to poisonous bootleg vodka and alcohol "substitutes" then your mortality levels are going to be way out of alignment with countries that superficially appear to have similar consumption levels. In addition, that figure only covers acute poisoning cases, not those who die from other causes that have been exacebated by organ damage inflicted by contaminated alcohol in the past.

As an aside, Russians are no more likely to be true alcoholics than people from any other country. An alcoholic has a physiological addiction to ethanol that is hard wired into his or her genetics. What Russia has in greater quantities than many other countries are "drunks". Habitual heavy drinkers who are not really addicted physiologically but rather drink for psychological, cultural and/or environmental reasons.

Eryk

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist

Well.. I am not sure if it is possible to answer how much it costs to raise a second child in Russia. I remember the times when everything related to raising a child was free - nursery, school, higher education, medicine. So nobody can actually say how much it is now. Depends on a family.

My personal opinion is that money cannot be an incentive for having a kid at all. It's like... If I want to have a kid and government is ready to support me - that's fine, if I want to have a kid and the government does not want to support me, who cares, if I don't want a kid (not married, for example, care more about my career, not sure that my BF is a right candidate to become a father of my child, etc.), the money won't make me change my decision.

Posted by: EasyTarget

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Originally Posted by Seaview

It is not surprising at all. Russia is right at the start of an economic boom that hasn't been seen in ages. The oil and gas reserves that are being actively and the known reserves, will keep the upper echelon of Russia quite wealthy for some time. This boom will increase the amount of immigrant workers needed.

Posted by: Raspberry

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Originally Posted by Seaview

Good point, and the only reason to drink vodka is to get buzzed. In fact, Minsk now has a prohibition on vodka sales in stores at certain times(I think midnight to 6am)....however you can buy beer, wine, brandy, and every other kind of alcoholic drink EXCEPT vodka 24 hours a day in that city....

Posted by: markgm

Guys its not only Russia that has a problem with Vodka consumption Ukraine its a big problem as well as the rest of the FSU countries, Poland is also high on that list.
Russia and Ukraine will boom economicly in the next few years it has already started to happen i have noticed myself especially in the last two years visiting Ukraine several times that things are changing very quickly.

Posted by: GoeastLJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaview

And it may sound surprising for you but Russia is the second country in the world (after the US) in number of immigrants. Ethnic Russians are not happy with that, but there are simply not enough of them in the country to work and pay taxes.

Chita (it's a town at the Far East ) local counsil website is available in two languages now - Russian and Chinese, and looks like it's only the start of the process.

When the EU accepted new members, most of the older EU Countries put restrictions on immigrant workers from the new member states. Statistics show that those countries that adopted liberal policies towards immigrant workers have benefitted greatly and have experienced a boom in recent years. Ireland is a good example.

IMHO, immigrant workers are a net gain to the host countries. Coming from a third world economy, I think the whole social security system in the western economies is dysfunctional. People avoid having children because they need two wages to sustain a living while the rich don't even know what to do with their money (I don't begrudge them). There is no incentive to work unless you have a good job that pays well. In the UK for example, cleaners, shop workers, hotel workers, farm labourers, restaurant workers etc barely earn enough to make it worth their while and people usually don't bother if they are UK citizens because unemployment benefit will subsidise housing, school which would disappear if they were in some form of employment. Immigrant workers, on the other hand are not entitled to these freebies and they simply have to work to survive.

Russia may have a different problem. I think that the country's wealth remained in the hands of a few who had their bowls the right way up (or may have been holding the pot) when the soviet union collapsed and these few are reluctant to use this money to develop the economy. Well, either reluctant or not well versed in the capitalistic type of economy that is needed to boost the economy. Russia will eventually need the economic muscle and greed (together with ethics and security) that have made the western world so successful. I have been to Russia and Ukraine and it looks to me that people their are content with making enough money only for today leaving tomorrow to fend for itself.

Posted by: Raspberry

It would also be interesting to see the statistics broken down by gender....
I would imagine that there would be a gender gap in the Russia statistics......but my guess is that in Ireland, there are almost as many women that drink heavily.

Posted by: Pin Boy

rasp,

why would you guess that about irish women? just curious.

pin boy

ps how many irishmen does it take to screw in a lightbulb??

two. one to stand there and hold the bulb, and the other to sit there and drink until the room starts spinning.

Posted by: Raspberry

I've been at parties and nightclubs where there have been many Irish women. They can literally drink most American men under the table. They were still standing, and the Americanskis(for the most part)were all ready to pass out, if not already.....

Posted by: Chemist

Immigration does produce an economic boom in a lot of countries, but you need the population growth to sustain it. Despite Russia having one of the world's largest immigration rates, it's population growth is still negative (-0.35). They are recording some impressive economic growth rates, but how long can that last if the population continues to shrink?