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Life in Soviet Union influencing Russian psyche re: money, survivial, living standard
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Posted by: Khashyar

Hi EVeryone,

During my trip to Washington D.C. with Lena, Lena mentioned to me how life during the Soviet Union affected her and ehr family, and I understood more about how the way she sees money and survival was impacted by her life in the Soviet Union.

Lena didn't speak with me much at all about this before, and I believe it is because life duringt eh Soviet Union was sometimes very hard for Lena, her family, and many U.S.S.R. families.

Lena told me that when she was young she was born in 1980), that her family had to wait in line for hours (2 hours or so) for a kilo of butter or sugar or cheese or a bottle of vodka, or other basic staples.

There is another older lady friend of Lena's at our house tonight (she is in her late fifties?, and is from Southern Russia, while Lena is from Belarus), and she said that every person in a family received food coupons for certain types of items, and that items were rationed per person per coupon.

But this friend of Lena's also said that even if a family had these ration coupons, that you had to have money to buy these items, and sometimes you did not have enough money to purchase something.

Even now, Lena's friend and Lena say that even the price of food and other items in Russia and Belarus (and Ukraine) are similar to prices in the U.S., but that salaries are 10 times less.

Lena's friend's son (who still lives in Russia) earns $300 per year [I meant $300/ month-- I was sleepy when I wrote this[, and he makes just enough to pay for his apartment.

Lena's friend said that when she worked in Russia, she was a single mom (as Lena's mom was for a while until she met Lena's step-father), and that her salary paid for the rent, and then one or two weeks of basic food.

A family's garden provided a lot of the fresh food (vegatables) for that family, and those families who did not have a personal garden, often went hungry.

And for those pensioners (retirees who did not have a garden or family to help them), some of them died of starvation, and some of the older Russians who are alone still die of starvation today.

So, how does this affect the mentality of a Russian person living in the West when they experienced the average person's life in the Soveit Union?

Lena's friend said that even the poorest person in America will have enough food for themselves. EVen the homeless, she said (because she actually was homeless for one month in America) can receive food and clothing.

Lena's friend feels that her life is much better and more comfortable in the U.S. than it was in Russia (or than it could be in Russia), because the average Russian salary will not buy the same food and other basic items than the average salary in America will buy.

How does this impact Lena?

Lena really appreciates that she can go to the store and buy any kind of food that she wants.

Lena feels that she can really acheive her dreams in America.

Lena has the character and personality of being able to work hard and struggle when necessary, because when you lived a life of sometimes not having enough food, then needing to work a bit harder in America to acheive the goals that you want, or to buy a higher priced item that you would like, is not that big of a deal.

Lena has the habit of saving money also, stashing away one or five dollars here and there (which is a habit that her mom still has, which I believe arose out of having a stash of money if difficult times come).

I think that Lena realizes that her life is not poor now, and that she may realize now that she did experience financial poverty as a child in a Western sense (even though it was the average lifestyle in the U.S.S.R. at the time).

I think that she truly enjoys and appreciates what she has, and what she can acheive and have simply by working hard (and harder than many native Americans would work).

I think that other immigrants have the same ability and predispostion to work hard once they come to the U.S., and the Russian has the advantage of looking more like the most prestigious race in America (Caucasion), and in having a diligent education as children and as University students.

I thought that I would share these thoughts...

Khashyar

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khashyar

Lena told me that when she was young she was born in 1980), that her family had to wait in line for hours (2 hours or so) for a kilo of butter or sugar or cheese or a bottle of vodka, or other basic staples.

There is another older lady friend of Lena's at our house tonight (she is in her late fifties?, and is from Southern Russia, while Lena is from Belarus), and she said that every person in a family received food coupons for certain types of items, and that items were rationed per person per coupon.

I guess, Lena is too young to remember, but the older lady should have mentioned that those coupons were not present for the most of the USSR history. Except for the WWII, when indeed everything was scarce, and people did go hungry all the time, coupons were only used in the last 3 years of Soviet Union existance. precisely, from the late 1987 until early 1991. It was difficult times indeed, but I don't remember ever going hungry.

Quote:

But this friend of Lena's also said that even if a family had these ration coupons, that you had to have money to buy these items, and sometimes you did not have enough money to purchase something.

Seems like our family was fortunate enough. Even though we did not have any luxury items, we never had to save on food. What job this woman had in the USSR? If it was really low-paying job (like a janitor or something), it might explain the situation.

Quote:

Lena's friend's son (who still lives in Russia) earns $300 per year, and he makes just enough to pay for his apartment.

Sorry, it is just not possible. If you work even part-time you still make more than $300 IN YEAR in Russia. I don't know a single person who makes this little.

Quote:

Lena's friend said that when she worked in Russia, she was a single mom (as Lena's mom was for a while until she met Lena's step-father), and that her salary paid for the rent, and then one or two weeks of basic food.

Overwhelming majorityof population did not rent from private owners back in the USSR. The had government provided housing, which would cost very little per month. We had a very large apartment, and paid something like 20 rubles a month for it. Our monthly family income was about 300 rubbles at that time (parents and 2 children). Unless your friend was doing a very low-paying job and at the same time renting a very expensive place from a private party, I don't know how she could spend so much of her income on rent..

Quote:

And for those pensioners (retirees who did not have a garden or family to help them), some of them died of starvation, and some of the older Russians who are alone still die of starvation today.

Quote:

So, how does this affect the mentality of a Russian person living in the West when they experienced the average person's life in the Soveit Union?

By no means the picture that was presented by your friend is "what the average person's life was in the Soviet Union". I am not here to defend the USSR in any way, but average persons did not die of starvation, they did not pay more than a half of their monthly income for housing, many did have little dachas, but not everybody (we did not for many years), and majority was more or less happy about their lives, at least the economic part of it. Education was free, health care was free, their was a lot of social stability in people lives, when they did not spend their time worrying about their future or the future of their children. Communist socical structure is not pretty, but it took care of many parts of their lives.

It is, obviously different now in Russia. It is more like Wild Wild West now, where everyone is more or less for him/herself. The rules of new, democratic society are not established yet, and many people feel like lab mice with experiments being conducted on them. I do believe that in modern Russia some people die of starvation. But I would not think it is an AVERAGE Russian.

I don't think that my life in the USSR (and I lived there for 19 years before it collapsed) had affected my grownup mentality in any specific way that would somehow affects my living in the States. Since I've spend a few years in the democratic Russia as well, before coming to the United States, I know that if you work hard, you can achieve a lot. And if you don't.. you might just die of starvation..

Posted by: cedarwind

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Sorry, it is just not possible. If you work even part-time you still make more than $300 IN YEAR in Russia. I don't know a single person who makes this little.

My friend in the Ukraine makes $4o a month that is a bit more than $300 a year but she tells me her pay is considered average in her town. There are families that live on less per moth even thou they work full time jobs in her town. (Primorsk Ukraine)

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by cedarwind

I will not say anything about Ukraine, i have no idea what the economic situation is over there, but in Russia it is not possible for a hard working young person to earn $300 in a year.. or $40 a months..
The average wage in Russia in a small to middle town/city is about $300 a month. In Moscow it is already about $1000 a month. A pension (social security ) is about $150 a month.

Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

and majority was more or less happy about their lives, at least the economic part of it. Education was free, health care was free, their was a lot of social stability in people lives, when they did not spend their time worrying about their future or the future of their children. Communist socical structure is not pretty, but it took care of many parts of their lives.

It is, obviously different now in Russia. It is more like Wild Wild West now, where everyone is more or less for him/herself. The rules of new, democratic society are not established yet, and many people feel like lab mice with experiments being conducted on them. I do believe that in modern Russia some people die of starvation. But I would not think it is an AVERAGE Russian.

I don't think that my life in the USSR (and I lived there for 19 years before it collapsed) had affected my grownup mentality in any specific way that would somehow affects my living in the States. Since I've spend a few years in the democratic Russia as well, before coming to the United States, I know that if you work hard, you can achieve a lot. And if you don't.. you might just die of starvation..

I'm still absorbing and thinking much about my expierence going overseas for first time from Australia and visiting a country like Ukraine.
I did get a sense there was some stability there from the old soviet system but the girl i meet was too young to have lived through it so it is a different expierence for older people that probably feel more lost and less stability compared the old system. As someone said it probably was not pretty but least they knew and understood it.
Seeing the roads there, airports and such things it is a bit like organised chaos compared to my country but they are used to it and know no other way. Here in Australia roads are upgraded by goverment and airports and such things. There is constant sign of growth and prosperity in my country. There is always new freeways being built, new houses, new sporting stadiums, new commercial buildings but what i saw in Ukraine was the airport was like it was 1940's and and roads had potholes everwhere so things don't change quickly becuase of the lack of government and commercial world running side by side. They are just a few things that become immediately obvious. Technolgies like phone lines and internet are way behind our country and ours are always improving in leaps and bounds. Income tax revenue by governemnt i understand is very little which explains why public works like roads are not upgraded and transports works but is a long way from modern comfort. Wow! I could not find a tennis court and sporting fields much. Here in Australia sporting fields, parks and tennis courts are everywhere. I did not realise how far behind they are with us in not having recreation be a big part of the culture. That was an eyeopener. I noticed how most people live in apartments and i guess because of old soviet system that essentially pay very little for this as the state provided it. In that sense they atleast don't have big housing expenses like people in Australia, Canada and America do. In our countries most people dream over owning their own land and home so can create big loans and debts to pay for this. That is where i believe there is a big difference. People in Ukraine don't dream like that. They just dream of having a good family life, education, comfort and their apartments so atleast they don't create large debts. Housing is not a great cost to them like we have in our expectations. Also many don't strive to have a private vehice. Many are quite satisfied to have public transport and used to walking more often. Having said that, it also means they are not used to having holidays where they drive and travel at their own leisure to different regions. In that sense i guess they don't move much from their own regions except of long train trips to relatives. They don't seem to have the same tendecy to buy and eat junk food like western cultures which is probably a good thing. Still, i think they have lots of kafe to eat and drink which seems to be a big part of culture in most of Europe and UK. It seems like in UK people goto pubs often and also live in many older buildings like apartments. Australia in that sense is very different. We have lots of space with more modern housing. In that sense more economically prosperous countries of Europe and UK share a similar culture of meeting up at kafes and drinking places like what i saw in Ukraine. People are too cramped in their apartments so it's natural to want to go out socially to meet others in your community. Whether the meeting place is on the streets or kafe that seems to be their way of life a little different to our own. People in Australia are more likely to play sport in their spare time, go see a movie or stay at home. Sense of local community is a thing of the past in most cases apart from sporting clubs.
They are some of my observation off the top of my head.

Also got a great insight in Russian culture in general from a documentary last year. Because of the communist system there is a tedency for people to think much more alike and not much diversity in thought. This is something that i keep coming across even in this forum from people from FSU. They tend to have a way of thinkng the something is a certain way or people are just a certain way and it is a fact rather than an opinion. I find it sad in way and that individual thought and diversity of expression must have got suppressed much of the 1900's and does not change quickly over one or two generations.
Stalin clearly did not want people thinking for themself and this i believe has had a long lasting a deep effect through the generations. I don't it is an accident people don't like to smile much in FSU. I think is an effect of those old times that if you were smiling, people are suspicous you are thinking for yourself. Stalin wanted you thinking of his idea of the state and your part in it. I'm sure that is deeply ingrained in the culture still. Freedom of thought and outward expression of life being fun was not part of the Stalin world and although he is long gone and soviet times are over, old habits don,t change overnight.
Realising there is another way of being and thinking in the world where people can be different, diverse in thought with likes and still be happy. 1990's was the end of soviet times and change is still taking place to new way of being, thinking and living.
FSU people live simply lives with reasonable education, no great expectations materially but much hopes family wise. There is no much prosperity like my country, however there is no great debts and credit card culture like here and USA. People live within their means and are not financial slaves to banks and their employer to the same extent here. Government and commercial advancement is much slower but i doubt you'll see people feeling left abondened and in great stress like the eyeponer i saw of Hurricane Katrina in USA. The social security system and health systems of USA are the other extreme of letting people sink and swim in a dangerous way i did not like seeing. I have not been to USA but seeing that and hearing about how some people live below the poverty line in USA it is not a good thing from a capitalist nation. Interesting planet we live in. I'm always wondering what is going on in places like Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Burma, North Korea. I know one thing for sure, living in Australia is far more comfortable and liesurely than Ukraine but compared to Afghanistan, Ukraine would be heaven and centuries ahead. It is all relative to what you are used to.
I've got an overseas trip to a third world country next month and on way there fly through the USA so await to learn more about our global village.
It's a big diverse planet.

Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:

But this friend of Lena's also said that even if a family had these ration coupons, that you had to have money to buy these items, and sometimes you did not have enough money to purchase something.

Even now, Lena's friend and Lena say that even the price of food and other items in Russia and Belarus (and Ukraine) are similar to prices in the U.S., but that salaries are 10 times less.

Some interesting thoughts, I was just speaking about this last weekend to my lady in Ufa, she told me she remembers coupons although she did say it was at the end of the eighties just before Perestroika and she cannot remember using coupons in the seventies?

She did say more or less what Lena did about food costs and things, she also told me before 1991 she had to go to Moscow to buy decent clothes, she could not get them in Ufa, there were no good shops there and if there was they had to queu for hours to get basic necessities.

From the early 90's things have changed a lot and life is better in some ways but in the old days they used to get free medical treatment, free housing, they could drink water from the tap etc now they have to pay for things, so although they earn more now, it does not necessarily mean they are better off on a day to day basis.

She also went on to say Gorbachov had done the best for her country of the recent leaders and she was happy with what Putin was doing now!

Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Again, never witnessed anybody dieing of starvation in Soviet Union times. Never heard of anybody either. Lonely elders were accepted in the government financed nursing homes, where they were taken care of free of charge. It was not a luxury living by any means, but they were definitely fed and attended by nurses.

Education was free, health care was free, their was a lot of social stability in people lives, when they did not spend their time worrying about their future or the future of their children. Communist socical structure is not pretty, but it took care of many parts of their lives.

I have had that confiormed by at least two Russian women I have spoken to at length on this. The State was always there for them, they would not let their people starve.

I was also told that you see beggars on the streets now all over the FSU but back then you didn't? Because they only had to go and ask for what they wanted, one reason I am told that a lot of the men now cannot handle things over there, weheas the women have always brought up the family and had to learn how to survive, so they have adapted to cahnge much more quickly than the men.

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Totally agree. A babushka in Moscow metro gets around 10000 roubles ($400) a month for sleeping in her arm-chair two-three times a week. And metro recruitment service invite and invite these babushkas every day because they are not queueing for these vacancies.

Don't know about Ukraine, though...

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Seeing the roads there, airports and such things it is a bit like organised chaos compared to my country but they are used to it and know no other way. Here in Australia roads are upgraded by goverment and airports and such things. There is constant sign of growth and prosperity in my country. There is always new freeways being built, new houses, new sporting stadiums, new commercial buildings but what i saw in Ukraine was the airport was like it was 1940's and and roads had potholes everwhere so things don't change quickly becuase of the lack of government and commercial world running side by side.

Russian (Ukranian) roads are a nightmare

Quote:

They are just a few things that become immediately obvious. Technolgies like phone lines and internet are way behind our country and ours are always improving in leaps and bounds.

I felt the same during my stay in the UK. Russia is far behind the UK in using internet and new ways of communication.

Quote:

I could not find a tennis court and sporting fields much. Here in Australia sporting fields, parks and tennis courts are everywhere. I did not realise how far behind they are with us in not having recreation be a big part of the culture. That was an eyeopener.

Recreation has never been a part of our culture, to be honest. I don't think it depends on income and things of the kind. I personally and many of my female friends can attend any sportsclub or fitness centre but.. We are just laaaazy

Quote:

In our countries most people dream over owning their own land and home so can create big loans and debts to pay for this. That is where i believe there is a big difference. People in Ukraine don't dream like that.

Of course they don't dream like that. THey OWN their apartments

Why should they dream about them.
Again, I am afraid to make a mistake about Ukraine, but in Russia during privatization (early 90s as far as I remember) people were allowed to privatize their state apartments which they did. So your "poor" RW can easily be an owner of her own quater a million dollar property

Just for fun. You, guys, often say "never ever send money to a person you've never met". Good point. On Russian forums discussing RW-WM relationship girls often say: never ever tell him you have your own property and never sell it to invest in a house abrosd unless you're 100% sure. In case, things are going wrong you should have a place to return to.

Quote:

Also many don't strive to have a private vehice. Many are quite satisfied to have public transport and used to walking more often.

True.

Quote:

This is something that i keep coming across even in this forum from people from FSU. They tend to have a way of thinkng the something is a certain way or people are just a certain way and it is a fact rather than an opinion. I find it sad in way and that individual thought and diversity of expression must have got suppressed much of the 1900's and does not change quickly over one or two generations.

Very interesting though disputable observation worthy of a a small essay.

I wish I had time for that essay at the moment but I haven't, unfortunately.
Anyway, thanks a lot for this very intresting description of your vision of FSU.

Posted by: Chrismc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaview

Russian (Ukranian) roads are a nightmare

I felt the same during my stay in the UK. Russia is far behind the UK in using internet and new ways of communication.

Recreation has never been a part of our culture, to be honest. I don't think it depends on income and things of the kind. I personally and many of my female friends can attend any sportsclub or fitness centre but.. We are just laaaazy

Some interesting and frank remarks and points Seaview.

Quote:

Of course they don't dream like that. THey OWN their apartments

It works both ways doen't it, something very few of us would have thought about?

Thanks for your input Seaview.

Posted by: deccie

Quote:

Originally Posted by nocomfortzone

NCZ, I get the impression you live in a major metropolitan city or regional
centre. I suggest that if you were to put forward this case to rural and regional Australia you would get a far different response. Like communities that have lost their hospitals, banks, dentists, etc. Or communities that have not had their roads upgraded for 40 years. Or of places that used to have trains and no longer do. Decline and prosperity is not evenly spread across Australia. It is patchy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nocomfortzone

People in Australia are more likely to play sport in their spare time, go see a movie or stay at home. Sense of local community is a thing of the past in most cases apart from sporting clubs.
They are some of my observation off the top of my head.

Again, I think you live in a major metropolitan. the place I am currently living (for one more week!) is a community of about three thousand people that is a subset of a larger community of 30,000. I can tell you that community spirit is alive and well here. People still say hello to others that they may not even know as they pass on the street. I watch out for my neighbours and they watch out for me.
The place I grew up in was about 16,000 or so. It was the same but I have also had similar experiences in places over 100,000 in size.

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Everyone,

I was just have some free time to look on the forum and read this thread.

I appreciate the feedback and thoughts.

Here are some thoughts:

1) I was very tired when I wrote the thread, and I meant to say that Lena's older friend's son makes $300 per month, and not $300 per year. Lena's friend lived in Rostov-on-Don (and that is where her son and daughter live). Lena's friend has to send her children money to help them buy items that they need, even though she herself does not make much money and has sometimes difficulty paying her bills here in America (she lives alone, without anyone to help or support her in America). Lena's friend told me that even though she does not make much money in the U.S., and that her life sometimes is difficult financially, that she would have a higher standard of living here than if she lived in Russia and earning what she could at a job there.

2) I spoke with Lena this afternoon by phone, and she told me that she did not agree with everything that her friend said, particularly that some older Soviet citizens died of starvation, although I did read a story in National Geographic that reported on homeless families in Moscow who were have a very hard time surviving. Also, Lena's friend mentioned that of all her of classmates (I'm not sure if she meant from high school or University) have serious health problems. I don't know if she didn't communicate her thoughts clearly about the starvation issue (because her English sometimes is a bit choppy), but she certainly did mean to say that the lack of money and standard of living did impair the health of the average Russian person (in her opinion), and led to early deaths, alcoholism, and other life-shortening conditions.

...I want to read more of what everyone write and then write more.....

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

3) Regarding housing and the elderly... Lena did mention to me that her family knows of an elderly Belarusian woman (without family) who had to sell her apartment because she could not afford to pay the government utilities as well as her other expenses, simply on her govenment retirement pension.

4) Yes, inlove, my understanding also is that the vast majority of Soviet citizens did not rent their dwellings, and certainly did not pay over half their income for rent. (I was just writing what Lena's older friend was telling me).

However, in today's time in Belarus, rent for an apartment can cost $200 per month, and the average Belarusian individual's salary is in the $200 range, so this is one indication of the financial stress that has resulted from the fall of the U.S.S.R.

5) Yes, inlove, Lena also agreed that it was extremely rare for a Soviet Russian to die of starvation, although it can happen in today's Russia.

Posted by: Khashyar

6) I spoke with several Belarusians while I visited Belarus about their jobs, economic opportunity, and their lives in general, and I heard many times how it was very hard for the average person to buy the things that they need, and certainly to move ahead in the economic game. There is a feeling that people who start businesses are penalized by high government taxes and regulations, as well as necessary pay-offs to the mafia. Almost every Belarus I spoke with said that life felt like a struggle, and that the average Belarusian was struggling in their life, and those who are not, are not moving ahead honestly.

I enjoyed reading all of the interesting thoughts and perspectives.

Khashyar

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

I'm talking to a woman right now that lives in Kazan and she makes $200 a month.

Are sure you know every person in Russia and know that none of them starved?

Posted by: Khashyar

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

I'm talking to a woman right now that lives in Kazan and she makes $200 a month.

Are sure you know every person in Russia and know that none of them starved?

So, Kazan is similar to Belarus salaries.

I do agree with inlove that starvation was a real rarity under the former Soviet Union.

However, Lena's grandmother told me of some times during and immediately after the second world war where she had to survive on cabbage and potatoes for long periods of time. My understanding is that the WW2 period is when there was starvation in Russia.

Khashyar

Posted by: BradIL

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

I am not here to defend the USSR in any way, but average persons did not die of starvation, they did not pay more than a half of their monthly income for housing, many did have little dachas, but not everybody (we did not for many years), and majority was more or less happy about their lives, at least the economic part of it. Education was free, health care was free, their was a lot of social stability in people lives, when they did not spend their time worrying about their future or the future of their children. Communist socical structure is not pretty, but it took care of many parts of their lives.

You produce some very worth-while anecdotes about life in the USSR. Chicago has a wonderful resource in you! You have the potential to provide some eye-opening lectures about day-to-day life in the USSR for high-school and college students. Luv it when you post like this!

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

I don't think that my life in the USSR (and I lived there for 19 years before it collapsed) had affected my grownup mentality in any specific way that would somehow affects my living in the States. Since I've spend a few years in the democratic Russia as well, before coming to the United States, I know that if you work hard, you can achieve a lot. And if you don't.. you might just die of starvation..

inlove--- did you do the whole kommosol/young pioneer activity-thing in your youth? You were 19 when the USSR faded away... how soon did you notice ANY changes from the usual-routine in Vladivostock after December, 1991?

Posted by: Khashyar

Good to see you online, Brad.

I also want to add that I really appreciate the first-hand and intelligent insight that inlove brings to the RMP forums. She is smart, and has many valuable information to share.

Khashyar

Posted by: Kathy

inlove, you lived in Vladivostok, did you not? I don't think it can be representative of the USSR, as it was a closed city, even to Soviets.

My husband is older than you and grew up in Kyiv. But, he was in the navy for 3 years, did 2 additional turns in the army (illegal by Soviet law, but that's another story), so he met men from all over the USSR. He also travelled a lot after the navy. He tells me that yes, in Belarus, coupons were the norm, even in the 1970's. This was also the case in large swaths of Russia, particularly in Central Russia, where one could have coupons, but the stores sold only matches and soap, so the coupons were pretty useless. Ukraine never had a coupon system, but it has the most fertile soil in the world. However, getting fresh meat was at times a problem. There were coupons in Ukraine only once, for sugar, when a campaign to oust Gorbachev was underway (1990).

There were beggars in the streets in Kyiv, mostly on Khreshchatik at the underground pedestrian walkway and near Volodymyrsky Cobor. However, most were con artists looking for additional cash to fund alcohol.

Apartments were cheap but getting that apartment was the problem. Escapees who moved to Kyiv could live in a dormitory for a decade before getting their own apartment.

From Khrushchev on, people did not starve, but let's not forget that millions starved in the 1920's, and there were man made famines which killed over 10 million Ukrainians in 1932-34.

There are plenty of regions of Ukraine where people live on less than $40 a month. One third of Ukrainians still don't have running water in their homes.

There may be a "nostalgia" for Soviet times, but my husband has no such nostalgia, except for, perhaps, the arts. He had friends who refused to have children because they "didn't want to give the state another slave".

Posted by: Khashyar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kathy

inlove, you lived in Vladivostok, did you not? I don't think it can be representative of the USSR, as it was a closed city, even to Soviets.

My husband is older than you and grew up in Kyiv. But, he was in the navy for 3 years, did 2 additional turns in the army (illegal by Soviet law, but that's another story), so he met men from all over the USSR. He also travelled a lot after the navy. He tells me that yes, in Belarus, coupons were the norm, even in the 1970's. This was also the case in large swaths of Russia, particularly in Central Russia, where one could have coupons, but the stores sold only matches and soap, so the coupons were pretty useless. Ukraine never had a coupon system, but it has the most fertile soil in the world. However, getting fresh meat was at times a problem. There were coupons in Ukraine only once, for sugar, when a campaign to oust Gorbachev was underway (1990).

There were beggars in the streets in Kyiv, mostly on Khreshchatik at the underground pedestrian walkway and near Volodymyrsky Cobor. However, most were con artists looking for additional cash to fund alcohol.

Apartments were cheap but getting that apartment was the problem. Escapees who moved to Kyiv could live in a dormitory for a decade before getting their own apartment.

From Khrushchev on, people did not starve, but let's not forget that millions starved in the 1920's, and there were man made famines which killed over 10 million Ukrainians in 1932-34.

There are plenty of regions of Ukraine where people live on less than $40 a month. One third of Ukrainians still don't have running water in their homes.

There may be a "nostalgia" for Soviet times, but my husband has no such nostalgia, except for, perhaps, the arts. He had friends who refused to have children because they "didn't want to give the state another slave".

I love the different perspectives that we are receiving in this thread.

This thread is becoming an interesting education...

Kathy, how do you think that his life during the Soviet era has changed him? Has it affected his character, the way that he lives his life, deals with finances, etc?

It would be interesting to hear your husband's perspective. (Thanks for having shared his thoughts with us).

Khashyar

Posted by: Khashyar

I opened a seperate thread about "Famine and starvation in Russia and the Soviet Union" here: http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=13069 so that we can explore this subject further.

Khashyar

Posted by: sidney

Quote:

inlove--- did you do the whole kommosol/young pioneer activity-thing in your youth?

My wife was a pioneer and has fond memories of this. I forget which movie shows them, maybe Dr Zhavago.
Sid

Posted by: Seaview

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradIL

I have always thought that producing "worth-while anecdots about life in the USSR" is something that people working for television news do.

Cheers to your editor, Brad!

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

He had friends who refused to have children because they "didn't want to give the state another slave".

That's an interesting point because it goes both ways. I know a lot of people now who do not want children because their furture is too unstable and they can no longer count on the state to provide for them. For a lot of people, children have become much too expensive and, hence, birthrates have fallen.

I can say for my husdband, his family, and friends that in general, they DO feel A LOT of nostalgia for the Soviet Union. They may simply just be romtancising the past and remembering things to be better than they actually were, but they do believe that life was better for them then. So there are definitely differences of aopinion on this matter

How has it affecyed his mentalirty? Well, for one thing, he does not particularly like America and what he perceives as the excesses and coldbloodedness of capitalism. He especially dislikes our medical system and the ridiculous costs of healthcare--he believes it to be entirely unethical for doctors to profit from people's illnesses and injuries. And he refuses to purchase health insurance on principle claiming that he would rather be sick and suffer than allow himself to be exploited. He is also very critical of education in the US--he thinks the standards in high schools are a complete joke and doesn't believe in that attending iuniversity should be so expensive. He hates the food int the US and believes that food inthe Soviet Union tasted better and was healthier. He hates that everyone is so focused on money--making it, spending it, etc. He thinks tha government should take more responsibility for peoples' well being and believes that this is what the Soviet government did.

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill

Sounds like your husband knows the US and capitalism well, I agree with most of his opinions, I have health care. Sounds like a smart man ... that's probably why he married you!

Posted by: Pin Boy

i started a similar thread a year or so ago. glad to see this kind of info again. these types of "human interest" threads, for lack of a better term, interest me. maybe i'll look for the other thread and see if we can merge them.

jill, your husband sounds quite unhappy here in the US. i agree with some of his observations. does he wish to return to the FSU or does he believe the family is better off long term living in america?

pb

Posted by: Jill

Yes, he would prefer to live in Ukraine. But he has ageed to stay in the US at least until I finish my degree. After that, we'll see....

Posted by: Khashyar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill

Very interesting to hear your husband's opinion, Jill.

Does your husband think that your child would have a better future in Ukraine, or in the U.S.? (In a psychological and economic sense?)

Khashyar

Posted by: Pin Boy

a little off topic, but what bothers me about living in america is (1) the lack of people who walk the streets in places where it is possible to walk. so many people in a rush and/or lazy do not take the little extra time to walk to a store when they could. (2) the slovenly appearance of WAY too many people. i just wish people would dress more neatly and trim down. i am constantly noticing this since my last trip to ukraine last summer. man, it is just so disheartening to see people of all ages who take no pride in their appearance and don't even try to dress in a manner that would accentuate their positive attributes.

okay, i'm getting down from the rant/soapbox. back to the topic.

pin boy

Posted by: waiting123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pin Boy

a little off topic, but what bothers me about living in america is (1) the lack of people who walk the streets in places where it is possible to walk. so many people in a rush and/or lazy do not take the little extra time to walk to a store when they could. (2) the slovenly appearance of WAY too many people. i just wish people would dress more neatly and trim down. i am constantly noticing this since my last trip to ukraine last summer. man, it is just so disheartening to see people of all ages who take no pride in their appearance and don't even try to dress in a manner that would accentuate their positive attributes.

okay, i'm getting down from the rant/soapbox. back to the topic.

pin boy

PB, it is funny you bring this up... my wife mentioned this within her first few days here.....

She thinks that a lot Americans do not care about the figures or the way they dress. Walking is a past time here. And my wife for one hates it that you can not walk to the store or places(where I live it is impractical to walk).

But none the less, I know exactly what you mean!

Posted by: Pin Boy

here's the link to a thread i started in oct of 2004 "living under a communist government." it's rather long. and it REALLY got off track.

http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...read.php?t=3129

pb

Posted by: nocomfortzone

Quote:

Originally Posted by deccie

I'm comparing like with like deccie. Most people do not live in the rural areas. I got a taste of life in Odessa and Nikolaev in the little time i was there and making comments based on urban life there compared to urban life here. I would suggest it goes without saying life is a little different for the minority that live in outback of Australia and the little villages of Ukraine.
I have a brother that lives in a samm town in Northern Territory. I could talk about all the differences of rural life but it is not representative of the way most Australians expierence life. Most do actually live on the eastern coast and the city regions.

Quote:

Like communities that have lost their hospitals, banks, dentists, etc. Or communities that have not had their roads upgraded for 40 years. Or of places that used to have trains and no longer do. Decline and prosperity is not evenly spread across Australia. It is patchy.

I never claimed it to be evenly spread, i just described what i believe to be a fairly accurate comparison of city life i saw in Ukraine and city life i see here.
This discussion has the scope for huge discussion in so many areas. I was just touching the surface of the few things i noticed.
Certainly if i goto to the average small town in the Mallee region of Victoria i know they are like ghost towns and it would be interesting to see village life of people in Ukraine aswell.

Again, I think you live in a major metropolitan. the place I am currently living (for one more week!) is a community of about three thousand people that is a subset of a larger community of 30,000. I can tell you that community spirit is alive and well here. People still say hello to others that they may not even know as they pass on the street. I watch out for my neighbours and they watch out for me.
The place I grew up in was about 16,000 or so. It was the same but I have also had similar experiences in places over 100,000 in size.[/QUOTE]

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Does your husband think that your child would have a better future in Ukraine, or in the U.S.? (In a psychological and economic sense?)

Well, he thinks Ukraine is a better place to raise children.

We had some friends over yesterday. The wife is an AW, the husband is a RM, and they have two small children. Our husbands went out onto the balcony for a little "guy talk." Naturally much of the conversation centered on life in America (her husband has been here much longer than mine has--about 8 years). One of the things they talked about was raising children in the US. They both agreed that one of their priorities should be keeping their childern as far away from "Americanization" as possible. They are both very critical of the children they've seen here, and feel that this environment is detrimental to children's psychological, physical, and intellectual development. So thay both feel that the FSU is a better place to raise kids....

Quote:

LOL, my husband says the same thing! But his real pet peeve is when people eat in their cars--he doesn't understand how people can be in such a rush that they can't even sit at a table for a few minutes to eat their breakfast.

Posted by: Kathy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khashyar

Well first, my husband is older than most people from the FSU who post here or are married to foreigners. He was in his thirties when the USSR collapsed, and he was expecting it. He told me a year before the coup that "the end was near". I also think that the world of men in Ukraine, at least, is very different from how women live. Men served in the military. Most travelled more than women. And society, in general, was more difficult for them.

I think the major way in which the USSR formed my husband is the way he is able to read people. His survival depended on being able to read behind what people said. He has the ability to "unmask" the true nature of a person, to see that person's personality, in a very short time. Often, I have disagreed, as I always look for the best in people and always give them the benefit of the doubt. When he has told me that a person is of dubious character, which is based on his subjective assessment, he has never been wrong. Ever.

In terms of money, my husband never lived beyond his means, and has natural Ukrainian frugality (my Grandmother, God rest her soul, was like this as well, so it is not an unknown to me). But in Ukrainian households, women control the cash, and I control our finances. I can't honestly say that we lack for anything, but even if we did, he wouldn't care. There were times he lived with friends, sleeping on the floor, and eating nothing but bread and milk, and creature comforts aren't particularly important to him.

When he came here, he was amazed by the politeness of the people and how cars stopped for pedestrians. The only negatives he sees are the "throwaway nature" of intimate relationships and the fact that people don't press their clothes.

Jill, when my husband meets people who are nostalgic for the Soviet past, he reminds them exactly what that past was. His mother was reminiscing about how good the past was, and he reminded her of their daily lives. I think generally, there is a tendency in humans to forget that "bad". In the 1970's, when my husband was young, komsomol members would pull people off the street or do sweeps in restaurants and bars and forcibly take young men with long hair to barbers. Even under Gorbachev, those attending Easter services were harassed. One year, worshippers entering Volodymyrsky Sobor were questioned, and if they had any party ties, they were put on a bus, driven out to a village outside city limits, and forced to walk back to the city in the middle of the night. My huband witnessed this. As he had always refused to join the party (he was one of only 2 men on his ship who were not komsomol members), he was left alone. He reminds people of the brutality and corruption of Soviet police. He has no nostalgia for the USSR or Ukraine and is happy with his life here.

Edit as a PS - My husband also had issues with some foods. We don't eat processed foods, but he was used to vegetables that were "organic". No preservatives to keep them fresh looking. We have a garden and an apple tree, and buy organic as well. He gave up on rye bread.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

I'm talking to a woman right now that lives in Kazan and she makes $200 a month.

Are sure you know every person in Russia and know that none of them starved?

I thought it was obvious that IO was talking about AVERAGE figures. It means that some make less than $300, obviously. And while I believe that in modern Russia some people might starve (please read my earlier posts carefully before replying), the overall situation definitely is not as grave as was presented at the beginning of this thread.
Also, in regards to average earning, one has to understand that majority of earnings still happen under the table. If the official salary is stated at $200 or $300, in many cases it does not mean that it is all what person actually earns per month.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradIL

I was a young pioneer of course.

It ws more like a girl/boyscout experience, but instead of "God/America the beautiful" ideology we had communism.

After December 1991 it got progressively worse from the economic standpoint until about 1994-95. Unless, of courseyou were from the former communist elite, or a criminal, than you did not have much problem with money. The old soviet system did not wark anymore, and there was not anything else in place yet.

But if you talk about personal and political freedoms, I think by the time of December 1991 the change was already well underway, which in turn resulted in the end of the USSR. During the 90s there was more freedom of press, speach, etc. that there is in today's Russia, in my opinion.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kathy

inlove, you lived in Vladivostok, did you not? I don't think it can be representative of the USSR, as it was a closed city, even to Soviets.

I do not see how the fact that Vladivostok was closed to travelers has anything to do with the subject. The closed status did not resolved in any extra perks. Since I've travelled quite a lot during those times, I can personally vouch for that.

We did have more fish available, due to the location, and in the mid-to late 80s there was a booming black market for western goods that sailors brought in, but that's it, when it comes to differences in conditions. I don't see how Vladivostok does not count for a Soviet city..

Quote:

My husband is older than you and grew up in Kyiv. But, he was in the navy for 3 years, did 2 additional turns in the army (illegal by Soviet law, but that's another story), so he met men from all over the USSR. He also travelled a lot after the navy. He tells me that yes, in Belarus, coupons were the norm, even in the 1970's. This was also the case in large swaths of Russia, particularly in Central Russia, where one could have coupons, but the stores sold only matches and soap, so the coupons were pretty useless. Ukraine never had a coupon system, but it has the most fertile soil in the world. However, getting fresh meat was at times a problem. There were coupons in Ukraine only once, for sugar, when a campaign to oust Gorbachev was underway (1990).

I guess, poor belorussians never can catch a break, can they?

There were no coupons in Russia, except for 1987-1990 ( I'm obviously not talking about post-war times). And not just in Vladivostok.. When coupons were indeed in circulation , a lot of products have to be bought with a coupon, not just sugar.

[QUOTE}Apartments were cheap but getting that apartment was the problem. Escapees who moved to Kyiv could live in a dormitory for a decade before getting their own apartment.[/QUOTE]

Again, I don't see what difference does it make in relation to the subject. Yes, people had to wait for yearsto get their apartment, and live in a dormitory. But they did not pay half of their income for a room in a dormitory either.

Quote:

From Khrushchev on, people did not starve, but let's not forget that millions starved in the 1920's, and there were man made famines which killed over 10 million Ukrainians in 1932-34.

I don't think it is fair to bring up starvation in 20s or 30s when talking about personal experiences of people who lived in the Soviet Union. My generation or my parents' generation did not experience that, the same way as your generation did not experience the Great Depression. Let's leave the history alone, or we will get to the point of discussing KKK and its affects on american psyche.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khashyar

Good to see you online, Brad.

I also want to add that I really appreciate the first-hand and intelligent insight that inlove brings to the RMP forums. She is smart, and has many valuable information to share.

Khashyar

Thanks Khashyar.

You make me blush.

Posted by: Kathy

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Closed cities were military bases. They always had extra perks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

I guess, poor belorussians never can catch a break, can they?

My husband is half Russian, half Ukrainian. When he was in the navy in the 1970's, many of his shipmates were from Central Russia, and they told him that they received coupons, which were useless, because there was nothing in the stores.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Again, I don't see what difference does it make in relation to the subject. Yes, people had to wait for yearsto get their apartment, and live in a dormitory. But they did not pay half of their income for a room in a dormitory either.

It has nothing to do with the amount one paid. I noted apartments were cheap. But most Westerners cannot imagine waiting a decade or more for an apartment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

The point is to note there was starvation. It was not restricted to times of war, and was used for political purposes. I noted it did not exist later (i.e after Khrushchev). But there are still people alive in former Soviet republics (my MIL included) who remember those times. My husband remembers when bread and buns were made of peas, even in Ukraine, because wheat was sold abroad for hard currency.

And, I'm not American. So I am in in no position to discuss the KKK's effect on the American psyche.

I think to suggest that things were "good" in the USSR is to ignore the reality of what the USSR was. A dictatorship with substandard living conditions.

People now in Iraq are nostalgic for the times of Saddam. It doesn't mean those times were good.

Posted by: deccie

Quote:

Originally Posted by nocomfortzone

I am talking about exactly the same types of places ncz. i.e. large (in the australian sense) regional centres along the eastern seaboard. Based on your comments I still think your in a capital city. It would be interesting for example to have you drive along highway 1 - the "National highway" between for example, Cairns and Townsville and see if your comments are still the same. It is an absolute disgrace in parts and is not even worthy of the name "country backwater".

To a large degree it is the people in these regional centres that have a high economic output that fund all the infrastructure in the capitals.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kathy

Closed cities were military bases. They always had extra perks.

I take that you've never been to a closed city in Soviet Union, and you have no idea how it was over there, while I do. If millitary bases might have had some perks (that I'm not aware of), it definitely did not extend to the rest of the city.

Quote:

Kyiv is not in Belarus. My husband is half Russian, half Ukrainian. When he was in the navy in the 1970's, many of his shipmates were from Central Russia, and they told him that they received coupons, which were useless, because there was nothing in the stores.

I was not talking about Kiev. I was talking about Belarus, where according to you the population used coupons in the 70s. There were no coupons in Russia in the 70s, not in Vladivostok, not in Siberia, and not in Central Russia. I understand that your husband's experiences seem the most valuable and trustworthy to you, but he is not the only person who lived in the Soviet Union at the time.

Quote:

It has nothing to do with the amount one paid. I noted apartments were cheap. But most Westerners cannot imagine waiting a decade or more for an apartment.

So what difference does it make in relation to the topic?

Quote:

The point is to note there was starvation. I noted it did not exist later. But there are still people alive in former Soviet republics (my MIL included) who remember those times. My husband remembers when bread and buns were made of peas, even in Ukraine, because wheat was sold abroad.

Actually, starting in late 60s, weat was imported from Canada and other countries, not sold abroad.

Quote:

I think to suggest that things were "good" in the USSR is to ignore the reality of what the USSR was. A dictatorship with substandard living conditions. People now in Iraq are nostalgic for the times of Saddam. It doesn't mean those times were good.

Starting with my first post I specifically said that I am here not to discuss, or God forbid, defend the ideology, but merely reflect upon the subject of a life of an "average soviet", and how this experience might have affected his/her experiences in the US. We are not talking here about the views of an average american on how bad the Soviet Union was.

So, one more time, the average soviet did not use coupons in the 70s, did not pay half of his income for housing (how, apparently Khashyar was told by his friend), and did not die of starvation. He had free healthcare and free education, and was guaranteed a job. That's it. Let's live the political aspect of it out of this topic.

P.S. And when it comes to Iraq, Saddam, I'm sure, was not a pleasure to live under, but if you compare to what they got now...No wonder they are nostalgic..

Posted by: Kathy

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Are you suggesting that all these Russians were lying? Or that my husband is in the early stages of dementia, and therefore, is somehow mistaken?

You claim to have been 19 when the USSR collapsed, which means you would have been an infant/young child in the 1970's. So how can you know whether coupons were used throughout Russia? Khashyar's friend stated they were used. She is in her fifties, and therefore would remember this. My husband's shipmates claimed the same thing. Most of them are in their late forties/early fifties now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Actually, starting in late 60s, weat was imported from Canada and other countries, not sold abroad.

True. But because of Comecon, the USSR subsidized most of Eastern Europe. That included grains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

So, one more time, the average soviet did not use coupons in the 70s, did not pay half of his income for housing (how, apparently Khashyar was told by his friend), and did not die of starvation. He had free healthcare and free education, and was guaranteed a job. That's it. Let's live the political aspect of it out of this topic.

I don't disagree with that. Nor do I believe anyone stated the "average" Soviet used coupons. However, there were regions where this did occur, even into the 1970's, which was the "heyday" of "wealth" in the USSR.

As for jobs, let's face the facts. A guarantee of a job was very restricted by the party. Just because one had an aptitude for languages, or the law, or journalism, and the mental acumen to reach the pinnacle of those professions, it didn't mean one would ever see the inside of a Soviet university. Higher education was indeed restricted. Even good jobs were restricted if one was deemed a "rotten bourgeois nationalist", or "an enemy of the state".

Posted by: Jill

Well, I think so often we try to too hard to define things and that causes us to fall into the thinking "Soviet Union=bad, Communism=bad, democracy=good, etc" and it's just not so black and white. Even people who have shared similar experiences can have very different opinions about those experiences and markedly different perspectives. And furthermore, even if their past experiences were similar, their current experiences may be quite different which creates unequal comparisons: in other words, you can't just say good or bad, but only what is relatively better or worse and that will differ among different people (especially taking into consideration factors such as age, profession, etc.).

I have a little story about that. Many years ago during my first trip to Kiev, I went to visit a friend who was waiting for her elderly granmother. When the woman arrived, she looked very upset and disoriented. It turns out that she had just come from a new supermarket that had opened recently in the center. I had been to that supermarket myself and quite liked it--it was very well stocked, large and bright, and was "western style", meaning you could browse the aisles, pick out what you want, take things off the shelf, etc. It was a little expensive and usually fairly crowded, though, and you did need to check your bags at the entrance. But grandma was appalled! She had never seen such a thing and didn't like it one bit--she didn't want to search endless aisles for what she needed--she wanted to go to the counter like everyone else and just ask the cashier to give her what she wanted (or to simply tell her that they don't have that). And she was very suspicious of the bag check--she was worried that they wanted to steal something from her. Anyway, by the end she was close to tears and exclaimed with no hint hyperbole, "I lived through the famine, I lived through the war, but I have NEVER experienced such horror and degradation as at that supermarket!"

Anyway, just a story..

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

In the 1970's, when my husband was young, komsomol members would pull people off the street or do sweeps in restaurants and bars and forcibly take young men with long hair to barbers.

LOL, my husband would FULLY support this

I guess that's another example of how the Soviet Union affected his mentality. He HATES anything smacking of non-conformity, especially men with long hair. It's fun to take him with me to Berkeley sometimes--he stands there with mouth hanging open and then complains that he forgot his camera and can't take a picture of the "freaks."

Just FYI, this is NOT an opinion I share with my husband. He is quite judgmental and this is something we've had our share of arguments about

But it does show some "Soviet influence" I believe....

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kathy

I don't think they are lying or have dementia.

More like when people are focused on seeing everything in black and white color only, their memories also have an ability to become black and white. Let's leave it at this..According to your husband there were coupons somewhere in Russia in the 70s. According to me (and my relatives, including grandmother) there were not.

Quote:

As for jobs, let's face the facts. A guarantee of a job was very restricted by the party. Just because one had an aptitude for languages, or the law, or journalism, and the mental acumen to reach the pinnacle of those professions, it didn't mean one would ever see the inside of a Soviet university. Higher education was indeed restricted. Even good jobs were restricted if one was deemed a "rotten bourgeois nationalist", or "an enemy of the state".

Well.. To see the inside of Soviet University you had to do a few things. You had to be a member of Komsomol, and pass the entrance examinations. If you were not a Komsomol member, then it would be hard to get a higher education, that's true.. But it is the extend of party involvement into the selection process.. To my knowledge, anyway..
P.S. Try to get a job in the US if you are labled "enemy of the state". I'll see how far it will take you.

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill

LOL, my husband would FULLY support this

But it does show some "Soviet influence" I believe....

Do you think if he would have come from the southern "red neck" population his reaction would be much different?. Somehow I think it might have been very close...

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Do you think if he would have come from the southern "red neck" population his reaction would be much different?. Somehow I think it might have been very close...

Yes, you are probably right

It's really the same issue, though--how cultural environment (whether it'sS oviet, redneck, rural, urban, or whatever) affects psychology. But sure, there are cultural evironments other than Soviet than can produces similar prejudices on certain people.

Posted by: Pin Boy

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Try to get a job in the US if you are labled "enemy of the state". I'll see how far it will take you.

how would you be labeled "enemy of the state" in the US and where would a potential employer get that information?

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pin Boy

how would you be labeled "enemy of the state" in the US and where would a potential employer get that information?

I would think it would be enough if an FBI had a file on you. Also, if you are a member, or have been a member of a Communist Party, you automatically become an "enemy of the state", at least a potential one. If employer does a thorough background check, this info will surface.

Posted by: Pin Boy

i'm probably kind of naive about these things living in my simple school teacher world, but i cannot understand where an employer would get info from the fbi. how does that happen? maybe if you were applying for a job with the government. i have a brother who works for the govt in washington and does background checks on people getting security clearance. but what about applying for a job as an accountant or some insurance saleperson?

where would being a member of some modern day communist party come into play? who would keep a record of such things? i just don't get it and it's probably not that important so if we want to just drop this part of the discussion that's fine by me.

pb

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think anyone really cares anymore whether someone is/was a Communist or not. In the McCarthy era, yes; now, I doubt it. A former Nazi officer would be a problem, though, and every few years you hear about another one surfacing and being deported, but I don't think Communists have really been targeted in a number of years.

I think there are those who might target war protestors--that I can easily imagine happening. However, I doubt a potential employer would be able to find out about that. I think (and I may be wrong) that most employers really only check into past felony convictions--and a war protest wouldn't result in a felony. Although an FBI file might be created for such a person, I don't think an employer would have access to that level of confidential information, but I could be wrong.

The other group that might be targeted in such a way are suspected/potential terrorists and the FBI definitely keeps lists/files on them. Other than "no fly" lists, though, I'm not entirely how they are used and who would have access to them. Could a potential employer, for example, access such a list? I don't know. But they would definitely qualify as "enemies of the state." I just don't how who would be able to find out about it.

Posted by: Jill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pin Boy

i'm probably kind of naive about these things living in my simple school teacher world, but i cannot understand where an employer would get info from the fbi. how does that happen? maybe if you were applying for a job with the government. i have a brother who works for the govt in washington and does background checks on people getting security clearance.
pb

Ah yes, a job that requires a security clearance would most definitely uncover such information, but most jobs in the US don't require a security clearance and I think a more standard background check really wouldn't show anything except arrests for specific crimes.

Posted by: Pin Boy

i agree jill, but we'll see if anyone with different experience offers any other info.

Posted by: Khashyar

Wow...

What an energetic thread

I think that Kathy and inlove have a difference of opinion on mainly the issue of food coupons during the Soviet Union. I respect those difference of opinions.

I appreciate reading both inlove's experience as a child and young woman in the U.S.S.R., as well as Kathy's husband's opinions. It is interesting to receive both perspectives.

I am curious myself about exactly when food coupons were used and where in the Soviet Union.

I think that I'm going to research this online and post it in a seperate thread in the history section.

Also, since this thread is mainly a discussion about history, I am going to move the thread into the history section.

Interesting and engaging discussion in this thread.

Khashyar

Posted by: GoingToRussia

Quote:
In the 1970's, when my husband was young, komsomol members would pull people off the street or do sweeps in restaurants and bars and forcibly take young men with long hair to barbers.

HE HE HE

- Teachers/Principals would do this to kids in the USA in the early 60s and 70s!

Posted by: inlove

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill

Well.. there was not such thing as an official label "enemy of the state" since Stalin's death in the Soviet Union as well. So, that term for Soviets would correspod to the McCarthy era in the States as well.. Even in present times, though, Communist party is illegal in the United States, adn on every immigration form they ask if someone has been a member of the Communist party. The answer "Yes" might result in the denial of immigration benefits. And when it comes to government jobs, any record with the FBI means an automatic rejection.

Posted by: Pin Boy

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

Quote:
In the 1970's, when my husband was young, komsomol members would pull people off the street or do sweeps in restaurants and bars and forcibly take young men with long hair to barbers.

HE HE HE

- Teachers/Principals would do this to kids in the USA in the early 60s and 70s!

a local public school tried to get a middle school student with a mohawk to change his hairstyle or tame it a bit as the dress code in the school handbook prohibits "distracting" hairstyles or some wording to that effect. anyway, the "genius" parents fight the school and it goes to court and a compromise is reached that the hair can not exceed so many inches. another case of students getting the message that they can do as they please. but not to digress..

many times when parents battle the school and teachers it is a result of the parents having a negative school experience and projecting that attitude onto their children and "getting back" at the school through their children. i'd guess the parents don't spend as much energy keeping track of the child's school work as they did taking this to court.

anyway, the father shows up at court and afterward is taken into custody for a bunch of outstanding warrants!! what a brilliant guy!

pb

Posted by: Khashyar

Hi Everyone....

I decided to open up a new dedicated thread about food coupons and food rationing during the Soviet Union here:

http://russianmeetingplace.com/foru...ead.php?t=13130

Posted by: Kathy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jill

LOL, my husband would FULLY support this

But it does show some "Soviet influence" I believe....

I agree Soviet society was one which demanded conformity. My husband said he tried to "conform", but it was against his nature. In the end, he decided he'd rather die than live as something he is not.

I will give you a little "womanly advice", Jill. Don't try to change a Ukrainian man's opinion on anything. It is impossible! I know this from all the Ukrainian men in my family, as well.

Posted by: Kathy

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

IWell.. To see the inside of Soviet University you had to do a few things. You had to be a member of Komsomol, and pass the entrance examinations. If you were not a Komsomol member, then it would be hard to get a higher education, that's true.. But it is the extend of party involvement into the selection process.. To my knowledge, anyway..
P.S. Try to get a job in the US if you are labled "enemy of the state". I'll see how far it will take you.

I know one had to be a komsomol member to attend virtually any higher education. My nephew could attend only one college, because it accepted 2 students per year who were not komsomol members. That was in 1989. My cousin, who lives in Western Ukraine, did not come from a "good" Soviet family. Even after joining the komsomol (in the 1970's), he could only attend school at night because he didn't have the proper "komsomol characteristics" (he was essentially a "non active" member).

Komsomol members had "assignments". This included informing on your classmates, acquaintances, even family members. They harassed people on the streets for various "non Soviet" behaviors.

But there were also certain faculties which, to enter, required obkom approval. Meaning it was open only the most devoted commies. And that meant proving one's complete devotion to the party. They had to come from "good proletarian families".

Posted by: Kathy

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingToRussia

HE HE HE

- Teachers/Principals would do this to kids in the USA in the early 60s and 70s!

There is a difference between being a child, and subject to rules, and an adult.

Nobody was pulling hippies off Haight-Ashbury to force them to cut their hair.

Posted by: Khashyar

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions, Kathy.

Khashyar

Posted by: Kathy

Quote:

Originally Posted by inlove

It is true that Article 58 (which made being an "enemy of the state" a crime) was removed from the Soviet criminal code during Khrushchev's time. However, the term continued to appear in party documents right up until the collapse of communism. It was also hurled at my husband during so called "perestroika" for the "crime" of having married a foreigner.

I'd also point out that while Article 58 was removed, parts of it were incorporated in Article 70, which survived to the demise of the USSR. The provisions of Article 70 were broader but less "forceful", and were enacted to jail dissidents for "anti Soviet agitation".

The communist party is not illlegal in the US. Here's their website -

http://www.cpusa.org/

Posted by: bingism

Some of the things that I've noticed living here in provincial Ufa (pop. 1.5-million):

- Whilst the fall of communism has brought "democracy" (and I say that mostly with my tongue in my cheek), it has brought untold problems along with it. The most common phrase I here when describing the current social situation is "out of control".

- The country is plagued by beaurocracy.

- There are "fees" to pay everywhere if you want something done promptly.

- The education system is turning into a joke... it's more common to pay for a good exam result rather than work for it and many of the teachers require additional money for little things.

- The property market is destroyed... the cost of housing here in Ufa is increasing at some 10-15% a year and is now well above affordable levels for 90+% of people.

- Rent is outrageous. The salary for a PA (office manager) is 5000-10000 roubles a month depending on what you do and what certificates you have and the rent of a 1-room apartment within 15-minutes bus