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Russian Case endings and such
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Posted by: The6thnightmare

I've been studying Russian for two years now, and I am still having troubles with case endings and when to use a particular case. I feel I am falling behind in my studies in school because of it. Do any of you have any hints, tricks, websites, or anything else to help me out with this? Thanks a lot in advance.

David

Posted by: Jill

OK, what specifically is giving you trouble? I will try to answer your questions.

Posted by: The6thnightmare

I'm just having trouble knowing which cases to use in which instances. For example when to use accusative instead of prepositional, but that's not the only problem. When to use cases, in general is my main problem. Also case endings are a pain for me. I know Instrumental case endings and when to use it. For some reason that case is the easiest one for me to remember, but all the others I just can't get.

Posted by: Jill

Well, the most basic explanation is that the accusative is used for direct objects and the dative is used for indirect objects; however, there are some verbs that just always take one or the other case and those simply need to be memorized.

But let's take a simple example that illustrates the basic rule.

I gave him the book.

"Him" is an indirect object (the idea is "to him") and book is the direct object (it is the object of the action of giving). OK? So that means that "him" takes the dative and "book" takes the accusative. So

Я дала ему (dative) книгу (accusative).

As for prepsitional, it is most often used after the prepositions в and на to express the location of something (or with o when you are talking or thinking about something). The accusative is also used with в and на when you are talking about direction (such as going somewhere).

OK.

I am in the store.

This expresses my location, so "store" must be in the prepositional: я в магазине.

But:

I am going to the store.

This describes a direction that I am moving towards, so "store" must be in the accusative: Я иду в магазин.

Does that make sense?

Posted by: davidg

I would get a decent practice book and drill it....practice makes perfect etc

Posted by: The6thnightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidg

I would get a decent practice book and drill it....practice makes perfect etc

any recommendations?

Posted by: davidg

Quote:

Originally Posted by The6thnightmare

any recommendations?

I am not the world's expert, but I have Russian in Exercises by S. Khavronina and A. Shirochenskaya ( Russkii Yazik b uprazhneniah (dlya rovoryashchih na angliiskom yazike)) which I bought in Moscow. ISBN is 5-200-03257-1

It is a bit old but goes through methodically drilling of cases and concepts which I believe may be ideal for you giving your complaint....

Posted by: Ronin_FM3

I too have this problem. Sometimes I get the case right, sometimes not. It is totally strange to me as a native english speaker. The only thing which really helps is converstaion, personally. I actually "disagree" with the cases, they just seem wrong to me. The ideas just do not seem to mesh or make sense, but that is the Russian language. I've been to Russia and Ukraine several times, and even when I use the wrong case ending everyone understands me. I can usually correct myself because I have the feeling that the case is wrong, which is an improvement; earlier I just had no feel for it. The more I get to actually converse in Russian, the better it gets.

Posted by: alena-krasavica

Prepositional case (also called locational) is used when you are at the place
I am at work - Я на работе
I am at the office - Я в офисеAccustive - it is the direct object of the verb - I am reading (what am I reading) a book - Я читаю книгу
The sentence with all cases:
In the hallway, Anna gave Igor's blue book to Ivan.
В коридоре, Анна дала (руками) Ивану голубую книгу Игоря.
• Nominative (young Anna/молодая Анна)
• Genitive (old Igor's/старого Игоря)
• Dative (to nice Ivan/милому Ивану)
• Accusative (blue book/голубую книгу)
• Instrumental (a more difficult Russian case! With her hands/руками)
• Prepositional (in the dark hallway/в тёмном коридоре)

Posted by: wavetossed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin_FM3

I too have this problem. Sometimes I get the case right, sometimes not. It is totally strange to me as a native english speaker. The only thing which really helps is converstaion, personally. I actually "disagree" with the cases, they just seem wrong to me. The ideas just do not seem to mesh or make sense, ... The more I get to actually converse in Russian, the better it gets.

Yes, practice makes perfect.

But cases do serve a purpose. In Russian, all sentences have a "topic" and it comes first in the sentence. For instance, if you say "I'm reading the book" you could be talking about the book or you could be talking about reading. The two sentences are different in Russian.

Knigu chitayu means that the book is the topic.
Chitayu knigu means that reading is the topic.

Now look what happens if a boy is reading:

Knigu chital malchik means "the boy read the book".
Malchika zvonila Maria means "Maria called the boy".
In these sentences, the object of the verb is the topic of the sentence.

The other day, I said to my wife, in English, "My dress shoes, I'll put on" because I am so used to being able to put the topic first in Russian.

Posted by: davidg

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavetossed

Knigu chital malchik means "the boy read the book".

and he has not definitely finished the book either!!!

Posted by: Ronin_FM3

Well, I am doomed to forever speaking incorrectly, for it makes no difference in my mind. My english grammar has total control, so I just use the case ending that seems necessary and explain things in detail to cover all bases. It is just meaningless to me.

My questions are always answered correctly when I speak Russian, and everyone understands me, thank god. I can determine if I have been correctly understood by the responses to my statements and questions, and usually do not have to explain myself further. So I thank god for this, because the case system just feels like a useless appendage to me and it will be many years before I consistently use the correct cases...too many years of english, I suppose.

Posted by: wavetossed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin_FM3

My questions are always answered correctly when I speak Russian

Questions are where you can really see the case system.

For instance, the roditelniy podezh (genitive case) is used to replace English "of" and "some". So for a glass of water you say stakan vody. Some verbs which refer to part of an object, not the whole thing, i.e. "some" of it, take the roditelniy podezh for their object. If you want something, you generally mean only a part of something, not all of it. So if you want to say that you want some water, you say vody khochu, or khochu vody.

That brings us to questions. A common question is "what do you want". In Russian, this is "Chego khochesh'?" where that g is pronounced like a "v". Chego is "chto" in roditelniy podezh. In fact, this question is often shortened to the single word "Chego?" which roughly translates as "Whaddayawan?".

Komu zvonish'? means Who are you calling and uses the datelniy podezh (dative case) because you call TO a person.

By the way, I started learning Russian when I was 47 and now, 3 years later I am almost fluent. Living with a Russian wife helps, of course.

Posted by: wavetossed

Becuase Russian allows you to order the words any way you want to emphasize the TOPIC of the sentence, it needs a way to indicate which noun is subject of the verb and which is the object.

Knigu videt mal'chik means literally "book sees boy" but it translates as "the boy sees the book" because knigu is in the velitelniy podezh (accusative case). So "Devochku videt mal'chik" means the boy sees the girl even though the order of subject and object are different.

But what if you want to say "the girl sees the boy"? At first there seems to be a problem because mal'chik does not change in the velitelniy podezh. However, the Russian language has a solution. Any animate nouns, i.e. nouns which could be the subject of a verb, use the roditelniy form for the velitelniy podezh.

"Mal'chika videt devochka" means "the girl sees the boy" because boy is in roditel'niy podezh. In question form, "Who do you see?" becomes:

Kogo videsh'?

Some books explain this as animate nouns using roditelniy instead of velitelniy. Others say that animate nouns have a different pattern of declension. I find it easiest to remember that animate nouns are an exception to the regular pattern where there is ambiguity, i.e. "Ya vizhu mal'chika, ya vizhu devochek" meaning "I see the boy, I see the girls". Devochku doesn't require an exception because there is no ambiguity.

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Dear Alena,
I really enjoy your wonderful avatar!

Posted by: PrincetonLion

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavetossed

Knigu chitayu means that the book is the topic.
Chitayu knigu means that reading is the topic.

The phrases "chitaju knigu" and "knigu chitaju" are identical... All purpose and beauty of "cases" is that you can change words order in your phrase in any way, and yet the sense of that phrase remains the same!

Posted by: alena-krasavica

Knigu chital malchik means "the boy read the book".
Malchika zvonila Maria means "Maria called the boy".

Malchika zvala Maria - means she was calling the boy (to come).
Malchiku zvonila Maria - she was phoning him.