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World economics & impact of it
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Posted by: Jutman

Hello

As mentioned in the aids tread, I would like to start it here instead.

It could be interesting discussion, but I want to streach out, when somebody talk about a country or political belonging, its not personal and even I not like it, its a social science there many times don't have a single answer.

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From the other tread:
Examples of effective government.
- Yes, that list is long. This is a classic issue were there is a huge different between Scandinavia and USA. Here in Denmark there have been a lot of privatisation of the public service. The result has not always been good. Like the cleaning at a hospital. After ½ year, the standard was not good enough by the private company and for the same money, the hospitals (public) own cleaning staff could.

The key issue is competition. Giving bonus to employees in public companies, let public companies making profit and bad workers should be lay off. So it is possible to take market economy principles and introduce them in public organisations.

- - - -
Another Issue was how a farmer in Iowa could be responsible for the situation in Africa.
Wll, he is not personal responsible. But the rich countries, in particular EU, has money to subsidarise the production, which the african nation has absolute no chance for.
The even worse thing, is the surpluse in production is sold for pennies in this countries, so not alone it keep them of the world market, it knock them down at the domestical market.

And since this is RMP, it can be transferred to FSU.
EU sells is 2 year old butter and meat from the surprluse production in Russia to a lower price than the local costs. So since the fall of Sovjet, the numbers of cows in Russia and going down. Okay, in the beginning it was due to fall of collective agriculture, but now the EU prices meat, make its difficult for russian farmers to invest, the risk of failure is too high .

And in none agriculture products, its the same. The standard in the production is improving, like in car where Russia has upgraded to EUR-2 stansrd and next year again to EUR-3 standard. So what does EU do?? Last year, they introduced the EUR-5 standard so the distance is kept = minor competition.

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The West alwasy talk about the open the market, free trade is the way forward. But this is not the case, for countries who has changed their faith. Japan & S.Corea is the best examples. This were very protective in the beginning, so there companies could grow and learn from the domestic market. Lessons required before entering the world market. This protectiosm and in many cases subsidary is cleary against IMF & WTO.

I could go on and on. Buts thats all for now.

Posted by: firemansam

Sorry, couldn't help myself.....
http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/...read.php?t=9939

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Sam lets be serious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jutman

This is a classic issue were there is a huge different between Scandinavia and USA. I know its hard for an american to imagine effective government.

Jutman what a good way to start a new topic, insult the Americans tgelling them they have trouble understanding effective gov't.

Soon you'll be told

Quote:

Dude, you got issues...But, its your life

Posted by: Jutman

Well, from the post here at RMP, I feel quit safe. But okay, I will explain more in dept.

Take any report from the World bank, IMP, OECD and whatever american written book about economics I have encountered, they all attacking the public sector for being too big and too ineffient.

Thats the base for my statement. And as I wrote in the beginning:

Quote:

I want to streach out, when somebody talk about a country or political belonging, its not personal

Posted by: Jutman

Better. I edit it out.

Posted by: Jerico

Jutman wrote:

Quote:

Here in Denmark there have been a lot of privatisation of the public service. The result has not always been good. Like the cleaning at a hospital. After ½ year, the standard was not good enough by the private company and for the same money, the hospitals (public) own cleaning staff could.

I agree that just because it goes private sector doesn`t mean that it will be better.
I live in a city that just became a city recently within the last 4 years or so.
We had the county pick up the trash once a week. To the countys credit they did a great job of doing this.
However it was costing the city millions to pay the county for these services.
So the city hired a private company to pick up the trash now for the last 6 months or so. From what I see they are doing a great job also.
The difference is that the city is saving a ton of money by not paying higher prices to the county. So it was not service but price that was the reason.
They also did this with the police department.
The county watched over my city but now we have our own Police which they say will save the city 3 million a year. We will see on that one.

Jerry

Posted by: Jutman

Jerico

Nice to read. And I am normally agree with you, that privatisation can save money. But its important for me, that people realize thats not always the case.

I don't know if this happen in USA, but like in the educational system, it work like this here: A base fee per school. (1-2% of the budget) and then xxxx $ per student, depending on kind of school.
So its up the the administration to make the education work and keep the budget. If to many years with a minus, the school close. If there is a profit, then its put into the equity for bad years.

By making the money depending at the student we got competition, from out neighbor schools, so students go for the best academic, social aso so this way we must improve ourselves, in a public finansed school.

Same with police. If there is 40 polcemen, okay there is budget of x. Disregarding what crime there will happen. Not long ago in my town somebody trow a firebomb at the a local politicans house. He called the county police 2,30 AM and got this message: Well, we are busy now. Try the city police tomorrow at 7 AM.

Posted by: Jerico

Jutman,
its interseting to hear how the educational system is set up in your country.
Its not quite like that in America.
I really cannot comment on education in California (where I live ) because I have no children .
However i do work with schools and they seem to me to waste a lot of money on Administration and dont put a lot towards the children.
Just my opinion of course.
Maybe they should work the educational system here like your country.
Sounds ok to me.
Reward the institutions that actually teach well.
To the teachers credit though it is probably difficult to teach in lower income areas due to how the students are raised.
Maybe its not the teachers fault for them not learning , i dont know.
Anyway good reading
Jerry

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jutman

JI don't know if this happen in USA, but like in the educational system, it work like this here: A base fee per school. (1-2% of the budget) and then xxxx $ per student, depending on kind of school.
So its up the the administration to make the education work and keep the budget. If to many years with a minus, the school close. If there is a profit, then its put into the equity for bad years.

Well speaking from experience that would not work in a large Island country like Australia. You see we have 20 million people who all deserve an education. So what did our gov'ts do, they made schools work from a budget that was less than what they had before, any thing else had to come from the community. Then they said school fees must be voluntary, meaning that now only people who really care about education payed the fees. You see if a gov't goes with the social line, that basic services should always be free to the people, and they should to (although all gov'ts make you pay taxes somehow to get the money to fund these services) then people are going to say well we have had this right since time immemorial and you think you are going to change it now.

Now tell me, because my system has always been based on effective gov't (this is why we can sack all levels of gov't if they bugger it up) yet I am having difficulty understanding how your system will work on a large Island nation such as Australia, how does a school in a socialy and economically depressed area support a school, have its kids effectively educated and bring itself out f the doldrums that it is in. Remember the school is already there, the gov't has told it to work within budget, the community has to make up any thing else it needs, the community is economically depressed/ socially depressed, and you are telling us that, if we had effective gov't, our gov't should shut it down and start a new one. I don't think you seem to understand the size and scope of this island nation I live in, it isn't like we all live in tha same area instead we have schools in towns of 50 people and the next town is 1.5 hours drive way and there is no public transport.

What is your solution to this dilema?

Posted by: deccie

Jutman,
Thanks for your posts and insights.
I am interested. How are large road projects funded in your country?
Because here, we seem to end up with Toll roads these days.

Posted by: Jutman

Jerico

It work both ways. We learn from USA as well. Like the Bush administration idea of grades should be public.

Decci
We have only 1½ toll road here. Techinical only 1. I will explain: When we build big bridges (2nd biggest in world beaten by 20 feet). And I can see it from our bedroom. This one is there toll on. About 35 USD 1-way.
The ½ bridge is between CoMal. (Copenhagen-Malmö) Denmark-Sweden but the toll boots are in Sweden. ( a 9½ mile connection)

Other roads are public and funded by the car owners. You pay in categories after how long it drive per liter gas. Of course bigger car, higher fee. Until some years ago, it was after weigth. I will say an average car cost around 350 USD per year. But then you can drive as where you like, as much you like.

Oz

Quote:

the community has to make up any thing else it needs

No. Thats is not how it works. To be correct, the above system are for hi.school and above. The 'elementary and jr.high' is county finansed. If a county is in trouble, financial, then we have a eqalisation tax. The rich counties pay extra in tax, and is transfered to the needed counties. Typical from major cities to rural counties. So to avoid small counties, we have now a administrativ reform in progress. No counties below 20.000 citizen)
But yes, Australia with it size and demographics is in a unique situation and from people I have meet there has been down there, you are rather creative to find solutions and modern tech helps.

Rigth now the hot issue is make reforms !!! Later this a law forcing people to work 2 more years will pass and also tring to force studenst to start more quickly at college. We need workers. Like 5000 to drive a truck !!!! That will be 300.000 in USA and will soon be 4 times higher. Microsoft has a affiliate here. They went to Ukraine to get 80 computer programmers. So reforms are needed.
--
In that sense its interesting in Europe to see small countries adjust to the globalisation more quickly than the big once. Many favourite story is Estonia, where they are inlead of using IT in public administration in EU.

I just remmeber about toll. Last year I went with a bus to Moscow trough Belarus. They have also toll road. The price was 10 and you could choose yourself. 10 belarus rubel, 10 Euro or 10 US dollar. The 10 BYR = 0,0003 € or 0,0004 dollar. When I saw that, I saw started to laugh and my wife did'nt understand anything.

Posted by: ira156

The federal road system in Australia is funded by taxes on fuel. Considering the scope of our highway system itt would probably the largest per head of population in the world. But fuel is about $1 us a litre, and we have to drive much greater distances than especially Europeans this can be a big dent in your budget. While we have no tolls in our state, almost every new major roadworks programe in other capitals has tolls on them. For a country where you can drive for 4 or 5 hrs without seeing a building let alone a town the road system is pretty good though.

Posted by: waiting123

So how exactly do we privatize the major expenses like national defense?

There is a happy medium of what should be privatized and what should remain governmental.

There is a reason that certain economies are bigger than others, there are reasons that wealthier nations provide to the poorer. I think all governments and the private sectors must co-exist. It is impossible for 1 or the other to complete all tasks.

It is easy to criticize from the peanut gallery! Governments and corporations are complex intruments to orchestrate. I do not agree that any government is perfect or ideal... show me one, and I will personally sell you the continent of Australia....

Posted by: deccie

123,
Now _THAT_ I agree with 100%. I don't like to see any mantra or doctrine followed without question.

There are some things that should never be privatised because the risks are too high.

Posted by: Spakoyna

Jutman, Here in America privitzation is usually cheaper and much better than a government operation. I hate to say this and it is my opinion... this is because people who work for the government are protected and lazy. They do not have to work as hard as those who work in the private sector. I witnessed this in person at our immigration office. I almost lost my lunch. We had an appointment, were attended to probably 1+1/2 hours after, and the entire time we were there we watched 6 people doing absolutely nothing. This is a touchy subject here. It is called affirmative action. There was a time it was needed but I believe the time has long passed. What this does is require businesses and government to hire a certain percentage of the demographic public. This is causing a large under qualified workforce here as well as a very lazy workforce in certain areas. I know I will strike a chord here...our unions are just as guilty! I used to drive a truck. I could tell you within 1 minute after I entered a company if it was union or not.

As for education....many are pursuing the private education system if they can afford it. The no child left behind law here is pulling the level of education down to the level of the slower learners.

Posted by: waiting123

Quote:

Originally Posted by deccie

123,
Now _THAT_ I agree with 100%. I don't like to see any mantra or doctrine followed without question.

There are some things that should never be privatised because the risks are too high.

I just feel governements and private sectors try their best to accomplish the goal... right or wrong they try. we will not always agree with what either sector does...but as long as we move progressivley forward, then it is not my place to b!tch!!! Like I said it is easy to see wrong in all other countries and organizations, when you are looking in....My point, step up and change policy if you have issues...

Posted by: waiting123

Quote:

As for education....many are pursuing the private education system if they can afford it. The no child left behind law here is pulling the level of education down to the level of the slower learners.

You are only as strong as your weakest link!!!!

Posted by: deccie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spakoyna

Jutman, Here in America privitzation is usually cheaper and much better than a government operation. I hate to say this and it is my opinion... this is because people who work for the government are protected and lazy. They do not have to work as hard as those who work in the private sector. I witnessed this in person at our immigration office. I almost lost my lunch. We had an appointment, were attended to probably 1+1/2 hours after, and the entire time we were there we watched 6 people doing absolutely nothing. This is a touchy subject here. It is called affirmative action. There was a time it was needed but I believe the time has long passed. What this does is require businesses and government to hire a certain percentage of the demographic public. This is causing a large under qualified workforce here as well as a very lazy workforce in certain areas. I know I will strike a chord here...our unions are just as guilty! I used to drive a truck. I could tell you within 1 minute after I entered a company if it was union or not.

As for education....many are pursuing the private education system if they can afford it. The no child left behind law here is pulling the level of education down to the level of the slower learners.

Uh huh.. Agree with you completely Spakonya. Unions defintely have their faults and people should have to perform to keep their jobs. I've worked in union and non union places. I currently work on an individual agreement and performance based pay/bonuses. I've been generally happy with the bonues I've received every year except some of the "stretch targets" set by management. I will never accept my employer has the right to dictate that I should get involved in company sponsored community events. Sorry guys, but there is a reason it's called PERSONAL TIME!

But where I worked two employers ago was the complete reverse and was a union shop. Despite this, probably 90% of the guys there cared passionately about their work. Sure, there was the odd waste of space but the bosses worked out who they were soon and eased a lot of them into Redundancy payments. At the same time though I do have a tendency to distrust management even in the current place I work. Either they are deliberately lying to people about what is going on at the top or they don't have a clue either. I once asked the MD when the next amalgamation of our group was coming because it was obvious to me it wasn't far away. He said 5 years away. Within 6 months of that meeting it had happened.

Have any of you ever read of the theory that psycopathic types tend to do well as managers because they are ruthless and lack empathy for people?

Posted by: firemansam

Quote:

Originally Posted by waiting123

So how exactly do we privatize the major expenses like national defense?

There is a happy medium of what should be privatized and what should remain governmental.

It's funny you should mention that!
Here in Australia at least, our defence force has been privatised, a bit.
To "cut costs", the government has down sized it's uniformed personnel and put some areas up for tender to private firms. The squadron I work at has its stores run by Boeng people under contract. Our main stores at Albatross are 100% civilian, although I couldn't actually tell you what company is holding that spot.
Naval firefighters (of which I once was

) have been sold off and each base now has contractors running the fire sections. Most of these contracts are held by Serco or British Aerospace.
Again at Albatross, our avionics workshop has been contracted out to BAE also.
Our meals (ashore) are cooked by civilians (Serco contract) who operate our galleys.
A lot of places that used to be "respite" postings from the ships have been taken away through these contracts and I can tell you that getting things done now days can be like pulling teeth when dealing with the civilian contractors. (They have to watch their profit margins)
Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting a bit, I'm very opposed the civilianisation of the defence force, I remember the "good old days", and I liked them a lot better.

Posted by: firemansam

Sorry, forgot to mention why it REALLY irks me so.....

I loved my job as a firefighter in the Navy. When the government initially decided to try and save some $$ they put out a tender for the fire services ashore and were going to give our jobs at sea to the Marine Tech branch.
Over three years our jobs were tendered 3 times. Each and every time, the "in house" (ie. what it cost to keep naval fire fighters) option was cheaper than the bids put in by BAE and Serco.
The issue was that someone, somewhere, had bit the bullet and decided that they would push ahead and do it anyway.
Now, through privatisation, the goverment is paying MORE for a service they already had and IMO, they are not getting as good a service as they were before.

Posted by: waiting123

Quote:

Originally Posted by firemansam

Sorry, forgot to mention why it REALLY irks me so.....

I agree with what you are saying. I spent many years serving in the military, and the US also has civillian contractors....i.e. GTR. My point with the statement was NAtional Defense... the fighting soldiers that protect our freedoms and liberties. I agree that some parts of the military were privatized and yes it is costing more, and yes probably gets a lot less done... but I am not talking persay the defense department.

I loved the military when it was all military, and you were held accountable to a superior for your performance and duty...but with constant transition and soldiers going to other duty stations every 3+ years, it does not make sense to have certain jobs that are replace every 3+ years... so I agree with parts of the military being privatised.. it is more expensive, but it is more cohesive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and stable!!!!

Posted by: Jutman

Quote:

privitzation is usually cheaper and much better than a government operation

As I also wrote, its the normal case, also here in Denmark in maybe 9/10 situations.

And what goes for Australian roads, yes there is many factor involved in finding the best system to organize.
About the price on gasline, try 1,75 USD pr liter = 6,45 pr gallon.

This is RMP so I will try to turn the posts at Russia, because Russia has in many ways the same situation as in Australia. A large country and many areas with very low density in population. In addition to this a lower frequency of cars and an critical income distribution.

Russia is somehow different, because the build most of the citis a long a line. Where the trans siberian goes. From that, the have been able to reduce the need for main roads.
Few years ago I was in a cap from Samara airport and up to my wifes city, some 150 km away. Thats road as in a good condition, but of course it was the main road Samara, Tolyatti, up to Kazan. But as sson you turn inside villages, its another story.

This is important for them, if they want to develop the country economical, that they have good infrastructure. Countries who has a large grow rate and struggle with this issue is China and India.

Russia has also an issue in education, where tuition has been introduced and the result is college with different qualities, which is not good. But have also postive effects.

I hope the plans there has been published for the investment in infrastructure in Russia will be made, so in the future, Russia is a vital and strong nation.

And Russia has elements of a developing country, so if they can pull it off, others can too.
But no country are the same, and therefor its impossible just to copy a solution. Its need to be studied, what the current situation are and what ressouces there is avilable and needed, and from that a plan inspired from others can be made.

Posted by: deccie

An msnbc post today on the hypocracy of us farm subsidies...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13622029/

Posted by: OzGuyLooking

Have been away for a few days and am going away again, gee it is good to be on holidays!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jutman

Oz

No. Thats is not how it works. To be correct, the above system are for hi.school and above. The 'elementary and jr.high' is county finansed. If a county is in trouble, financial, then we have a eqalisation tax. The rich counties pay extra in tax, and is transfered to the needed counties. Typical from major cities to rural counties. So to avoid small counties, we have now a administrativ reform in progress. No counties below 20.000 citizen)
But yes, Australia with it size and demographics is in a unique situation and from people I have meet there has been down there, you are rather creative to find solutions and modern tech helps.

Sorry to tell you but that is how it works in Australia for Infants, Primary School, High School, TAFE, and University. I work within the system I know what I am talking about.

Posted by: Jutman

Oh yes, last working day was June 22nd and next is August 11th.

And now the wife is home with the family, so ALONE..

....
...
..
.
Actually, thats boring.

Posted by: Jutman

Since we are work related, here is something I want to tell, and have for Q to the Brits and Irish at the forum.

When I drive to work (have 50 km, 1-way) I stubbled occasionally over mostly trucks and 1 or 2 cars from Ukraine and Russia.
My Q: Also in Uk and Eire?

Anyway, thats an impact of a changing World. I would say for 10 years ago, it was the Baltic and Polish vehicle we saw occasionally, now its moved further East. Today, its almost a everyday situation to spot a vehicle from Poland or the Baltics.

Another is the LCC to Eastern Europe. Ryanair have started to the Baltics from Norway and Sweden, Estonia Air, has good LCC offer (100$ for a round-trip to Tallin) and from Norway to Skt.Pete, 200$ for a round-trip. Including tax.

As written elsewhere at RMP, bmi, starts to fly to Moscow, mainly because the current planes can't quit cope the demand. I found that BA and Aeroflot each fly 2 times daily, to Moscow with a 180 seated plane.
From Denmark in 1Q 2006, its was 197 persons daily who went to Russia.
Just no LCC from Denmark, to Russia.